Wouldn't these just be Charms or Shapeshifting? IIRC, Stopping Hearts would probably be a touch Range Abyssal Medicine Charm, and Lunars actually have a knack that lets them do small shapeshifts for bonuses.
Abyssals have a Charm called Heart-Stopping Mien, yes. It's an upgrade of Dread Lord's Demeanour that inflicts Lethal damage on anybody who overcomes your fear-aura. Fairly significant damage too; even a conservative read puts it at (Essence) unsoakable Lethal dice once per scene.
 
Wouldn't these just be Charms or Shapeshifting? IIRC, Stopping Hearts would probably be a touch Range Abyssal Medicine Charm, and Lunars actually have a knack that lets them do small shapeshifts for bonuses.
I figured, I just think combining all the simple, thematic Charms into one power might be cool. Easier to keep track of, at any rate.
Okay so, here is the dirty secret about Thematic Excellencies: they are simply roll-modifiers, and the way the ST system is arranged vastly overvalues them.

Before, die-adders were specialized Charms tucked away into every Charm tree as an (understandable) method for keeping pool-values low, but as the scope of the game increased so did the perception of dice and the required numbers to compete effectively inflated right along with them. By the time 2e hit and codified them universally, it was generally accepted that you would be buying and using them as often as you could, for the longest duration available to you (Infinite Mastery et al), if only to guarantee you would be succeeding at the majority of the rolls you were attempting to make.

They were still limited to per-Ability/Attribute use as both a legacy effect and to insure that "superhuman competence" above the 10-13 maximum pool for traits still felt like a meaningful advancement step, and that characters would have a "niche" they were settled into that prevented them from simply slamming down 20 dice on "whatever I feel like doing right now." Which is, unfortunately, exactly what you tend to find in the broad-uses of Thematic Excellencies.

Yes, they feel less-restrictive and more characterful on their face, but all that Thematic Excellencies actually provide is a customized niche chosen by the player as "this specific set of things I plan on doing ingame" rather than "everything remotely related to Archery tasks." So if you want to remove the niche-modifier aspect and allow other Exalts to also measure themselves by a statement of "I want the Option to pay 1m/1d to enhance whatever roll I happen to be stunting," then you should simply keep the rule as that by itself, and save yourself the trouble of trying to pin down the specific keywords and apply them to themes as ugly-broad as the Solars and Lunars tend to be.
I'm sorry, your phrasing isn't very clear. At a guess, you're saying the whole system was Not Designed For This, including the fluff.
Would it help to know I was in mind of my embryonic ground-level-rebuild-of/unrelated-setting-heavily-inspired-by Exalted when I came up with it?

I'd been thinking of it as a bit like Stunting, really. You'd get a limited number of bonuses per turn, so long as you explained how your actions were in theme, and my Exalts have very clear base themes. Lunars are Historians, for example.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry, your phrasing isn't very clear. At a guess, you're saying the whole system was Not Designed For This, including the fluff.
Would it help to know I was in mind of my embryonic ground-level-rebuild-of/unrelated-setting-heavily-inspired-by Exalted when I came up with it?

I'd been thinking of it as a bit like Stunting, really. You'd get a limited number of bonuses per turn, so long as you explained how your actions were in theme, and my Exalts have very clear base themes. Lunars are Historians, for example.
What I'm saying is, generally, the division of "Excellencies" as Charm-purchases for die-adding is a largely legacy holdover mechanic from when 1e was attempting to be a smaller game, in order to impose character niches through XP-spending, and limiting dice this way doesn't actually work the way the game currently tries to operate (which is "roll as much dice as you can, as often as you can").

But once you remove that element of imposing a harshly defined niche, in the way Thematic Excellencies do (where the choice of Excellency now boils down to "choose your archetype which you will always be spending motes to enhance"), what you are left with is really no different than simply allowing anyone to buy a die for a mote whenever they please. Because if they were Not intending on stunting the action or approaching it from the basis of their chosen archetype, chances are they would not be planning on rolling for the purpose to begin with.

So if that is your mechanical end-goal, it would be easier in the long run to just say that, and have "Exalts may spend 1m to gain +1d to a roll they are attempting, to a limit of (cap)" be something which Exalts just Do, rather than do something awkward like try to pin down where Solar/Lunar power thresholds meaningfully Stop in the attempt to reintroduce those niches.
 
Last edited:
So yes. First off, I have finally finished Keris's ENLIGHTENMENT 9 SEEKING FUCK YEAH. You can read Five Days Dreaming here, as Keris wrestles with deeply-held truths that she's not altogether comfortable accepting. The Maiden of Secrets may or may not declassify the sealed portion of the records in Sufficiently Sexy at some hitherto-undetermined date and time. She hasn't decided yet.

Following that - it occurs between Sessions 49 and 50, as you may recall, and has been placed appropriately into the doc - we have Kerisgame 54, from this weekend just past - delayed by a day to get the Seeking finished. In which... things happened.

Yes. Things. A lot of... things.

I am not speaking to @EarthScorpion right now [1].

I'm not even gonna comment on what happened. Read it for yourselves. Fucker pulled another Rat, the frelling... grrrr.

Anyway, bonus bits are pretty substantial this time; a lot of chatter on various subjects.
EarthScorpion: Hee. Keris is E9 now, and thus prettier. That will be a nice surprise for Sasi next time they meet.
Aleph: ... oh, Sasi. Hahaha. You know what else?
EarthScorpion: The unquestionable are getting less attractive to her?
Aleph: From a fluff perspective... well, when Keris IEI'd the chunk of Shattered Crystal, it read as Enlightenment n/a, right?
EarthScorpion: Mmm.
Aleph: So yeah. Uh. Those scars Adorjan left on Keris's face, which aren't healing because a trace of Primordial power is left in them from the direct touch of the Silent Wind.
Aleph: Sasi: "..."
Aleph: Sasi: "What. Happened."
Aleph: (on the plus side, they look like very pretty scars to her.)
EarthScorpion: More like gorgeous ritual scarification.
Aleph: Sigh. Dammit Keris. Since Sasi last saw you, you have got facial scars from a Primordial, attained E9 and become pregnant. And will be noticeably showing when you next see her, despite it only having been about a season.
EarthScorpion: Oh yes, won't she have Yozi sickness again?
Aleph: It's lessened inside her soul and with the turbulence of Calesco, but yes. At the point of the last session she hasn't noticed it yet because the dream is still pretty fresh, but, uh
Aleph: that arousal and flushed feeling isn't actually going to go away for, like... a month.
Aleph: And not the comfortable simmering type of arousal, either.
EarthScorpion: Temporary 3-4 dot principle of "Arousal (All-Consuming)" which... uh, she can reduce with a scene of... entertainment. And which gains a dot for each scene she doesn't entertain herself in some way, up to its cap.
EarthScorpion: Keris: "... this is really getting in the way of my research."
...
Aleph: Okay, so this is "experimentation fortnight 2", "bombshell halfway through" and anything evil you have cooked up and waiting. Remind me what I need success-wise?
EarthScorpion: Okay, so you've done a Theory phase and an Experimentation phase. You have one more Experimentation and a Refinement phase to go.
Aleph: Cool. Oh yeah, we changed it up, didn't we. So I just have to succeed at the roll Difficulty.
EarthScorpion: Okay, so this is again Cog + Occult, and now you're testing on Kuha. So what's your pool and what do you get from Charms?
Aleph: Okay, right. So 2+4+4 Empyreal Alchemist Style bonus+2 Manse+a 2-die stunt=14 dice. And... sigh. Yes, I think I'm going to say that Keris has TLA'd Kuha, partly because she's adorable, partly because Keris has been putting a shitload of work into her and cares deeply about this issue, and partly because of the Yozi Sickness. So she's also channelling Compassion to add 3 autosux to her roll, and it upgrades her stunt to a 3-die one, making it 15+3 sux.
Aleph: Sadly, she has completely destroyed her spare workshop, and thus can't render that down for parts - and she's not willing to render Kuha down. Hmm. What raw materials and exotic components can she get from complete, usable items at this stage... testing on demons won't work. Oh, hmm. Unless she boils a metody down herself for some really high-grade vitriol.
EarthScorpion: She can totally hunt one down, although that might take some time. Oh wait, no. She can just summon it.
...
EarthScorpion: So that's a success, and she got sufficient threshold successes that Kuha is fine. At this stage, Keris has a working prototype and thus she should be transformed by it at some point during the week. Also, what TLA intimacy is Keris making towards her?
EarthScorpion: Actually, honestly, depends when she generates it. Pre-change, it'll probably be 'oh, she's so cute and admirable for how she copes with her sickness'. You know, like how Keris would probably have towards Hayate.
Aleph: True. Okay, I'll have it be "Kuha (Very Cute)".
EarthScorpion: Well, that might be "Motherly Love"
Aleph: No, slightly distinct from that, I think. That will, sigh, be more likely to be what it shifts into if she has it hang around post-change and realises what Kuha now looks like.
...
EarthScorpion: One of the darkly amusing things I find about my Lilunu rework is that she's still an abuse victim. It's just a lot more low key and realistic - it's the abuse of a younger woman married off to a powerful older man as a trophy bride. And it's not very overt, because quite a bit of it is already so internalised. Rather than the atrocities of canon, it's just implied with how she doesn't argue too hard with anything he says, and is immediately apologetic if he doesn't let her win.
Aleph: Oh, Lilunu. : (
EarthScorpion: And because of things like that, she still loves him and he's fond of her. She's just also scared of him.
...
Aleph: Hmm.
Aleph: Heh.
Aleph: One of the things that always bugs me in fanfics (especially angstfics, urgh) is when characters who have problems - depression, self-esteem issues, that sort of thing - just sort of outright spill things like "I'm useless and I don't deserve to be loved and so on". I'm not sure if I'm right or not, but it's always seemed to me that while people very well may believe such things, internally, they also tend to keep them internal with an almost savage intensity.
Aleph: So they don't helpfully voice the toxic ideas so they can be refuted, and you don't get blunt statements like that. They just colour other things they say. You won't hear someone say "I don't deserve to be loved" or "I'm stupid and no good at anything and can never succeed", but that sentiment will colour the things they do say as a foundational assumption, while at the same time they try to hide saying it directly.
Aleph: Hmm. Ah, yes. It's defensiveness from pity, and pride. So probably not a universal thing, but it definitely does suit Keris, who says "I'm not good at planning" and "I don't bother thinking long-term" to hide the underlying belief of "I'm not very smart" that she's built up from spending all her life around people like Rat and Sasi, letting them do the brains stuff.
EarthScorpion: Echo points out that Keris is smarter than she thinks she is, because Echo wouldn't be a super-genius if Keris wasn't at least part clever.
EarthScorpion: Echo waves her hand, and admits that Haneyl is also quite clever for someone who thinks so slow.
Aleph: ... huh. Actually, come to think of it. I totally can have Keris hit Cog 3 without removing that little insecurity, and... hmm. In some ways that might be a more interesting character trait than to just have her stay at average levels of Cog. Keris always has been bad at measuring herself against other people, in either direction.
Aleph: Hmm. I shall think about this thing.
Aleph: Sigh. And she's justifying her work in vitriol-alchemy with "well this is just pretty easy" and "guess I have a knack for it".
EarthScorpion: And yes, since Sasi is her main associate and Sasi is a... uh, very clever and above that, very very well-educated lady.
Aleph: And Sasi also hasn't - I don't think - realised that Keris thinks this way, and thus hasn't yet gone "... Keris. Vitriol alchemy at this level. Is not easy."
EarthScorpion: Oh, Keris.
EarthScorpion: ... huh. Will the experience of having been bimbo!Keris actually strengthen her own self-confidence in her own intellect?
Aleph: Hmm. Not these ones, since these she's interpreting as "they're very stupid" rather than "I'm smart". But once she gets a full Gale working, and realises the difference between mortal genius and her intellect... yeah, that might.
EarthScorpion: Well, it's more that she could be a lot more stupid, and there are bits of her that are rather smarter.
Aleph: Yeah, but she still has people like Sasi defining the high end.
EarthScorpion: Mmm. Especially since Sasi tends to use her excellency dice quite a bit, if she's focussing on the academia.
...
Aleph: Oh, Calesco. You know, it might be half-and-half there. Half sincere happiness, because she's Keris's compassion and criticism aside, she knows Keris will be kind and generous and loving and doting as a parent - will go overboard, if anything. And then, yes, half cynical barbed amusement at how her souls weren't enough, and nothing ever will be - she'll never fill the hole that craves people loving her.
EarthScorpion: There's a bit of Calesco which resents being shaped into being Keris' daughter
Aleph: Hmm. I might use this as a good point to give her that, hmm, "hope that Keris can overcome her failings and be better" Principle that counterbalances her "angry criticism" one. How to sum that up?
EarthScorpion: Guarded Optimism
Aleph: Hah. Yes. Oh, Calesco. <3
Aleph: Haneyl is Clingy Affection / Demanding Expectation towards Keris. You're Angry Criticism / Guarded Optimism.
Aleph: ... though the two of you do both agree on neither liking Rathan much. : P
...
Aleph: ... on the plus side, assuming those automata are sending or carrying a report back to Ligier, Keris is probably going to get away with any embarrassment she caused him, since a) "Adorjan is stalking me" is a pretty good excuse as such things go, and frankly b) the fact that she had a personal encounter with the Silent Wind and was able to attend his banquet less than two weeks later is pretty fucking impressive, depending on how it's spun.
Aleph: I mean, status-wise she's equal to the Second Circles, and any of them who'd had that happen would be unable to attend on account of being dead.
Aleph: ... admittedly this might make people slightly less keen to associate with her, since, uh
Aleph: yeah
EarthScorpion: This is one of the reasons Lilunu is sort of a recluse and seldom leaves her own flesh.
Aleph: Hmm?
Aleph: I can't imagine Infernals go crazy and blurt out telenovella pregnancy reveals frequently when she leaves the Conventicle. Unless you mean the her-getting-possessed thing.
EarthScorpion: When she gets nervous and when she is ill-at-ease and concerned, her swings get worse.
Aleph: : (
...
EarthScorpion: Oh, Calesco. You will likely have a lot of abortive and ending-in-tears relationships in your teenage years, because you're looking for love, want to prove that love isn't just pain, and... well. You're Keris' daughter.
Aleph: : (
Aleph: She needs hugs from Madoka. Or Usagi. Hee. I do like that... yeah, unlike most "cynical characters who point out people's flaws"... Calesco would love Usagi. She'd take one look and immediately adore her, because the vast majority of Usagi's flaws are surface things, and deep down she's a truly good person, while Calesco's scorn is directed at people who are smooth and impressive on the surface and flawed or hypocritical deep down.
Aleph: ... okay, she'd probably criticise Usagi's fashion sense.
EarthScorpion: Oh, Calesco. She's bad at relationships because she's too cynical, and thus overcompensates and is willing to believe assholes or people who are bad for her because she can't separate people apart.
EarthScorpion: ... also, lol, Haneyl-Calesco hair-pulling is just hilariously petty.
Aleph: : P
Aleph: It's more like arm-wrestling than a conventional hair-pulling fight.
Aleph: Calesco has the advantage due to being a) bigger and b) having stolen Wild Alleycat Style somehow.
EarthScorpion: Echo dances by, practicing Friagem Serpent katas.
Aleph: ... *facepalm*
Aleph: how many szelkeruby have 1 dot in friagem serpent
EarthScorpion: Honestly, Keris' styles are probably proliferating through the keruby
Aleph: goddammit keruby
EarthScorpion: ... sigh
EarthScorpion: they're breaking into her Style storage repository in the Domain
Aleph: Hahaha. The Library? And reading the scrolls in there.
EarthScorpion: and mucking around self-teaching themselves from the pretty pictures
EarthScorpion: It's almost like dancing!
Aleph: ... yeah, okay, let's be honest. The first szelkerub to master Mendaciloquent Maverick Style is probably going to insta-evolve into the first szilf.
EarthScorpion: Echo's eyes widen, and she falls over laughing.
Aleph: ¬_¬
Aleph: She will be delighted, yes. Or possibly responsible. I can see her deciding to teach it to one of her friends.
EarthScorpion: Keris: "... Echo. What have you done now?"
Aleph: Szilf: *braids long red ribbons into her hair, stomps over with her hands on her hips and wags an exaggerated finger at Echo*
Aleph: Echo: *laughs even harder*
EarthScorpion: Heh
EarthScorpion: How did Keris feel about Rounen and the way he called her 'mum'?
EarthScorpion: (this was probably picked up from Echo)
Aleph: She thinks it is adorable and very sweet, though suspects it's more in a generic sense than literally seeing her as a parent.
Aleph: Heh. Similar to the Tengese and "Honoured Grandmother".
EarthScorpion: ... she probably wishes her own children were as sweet as him, rather than being mega-brats
Aleph: In fairness, her children can be individually sweet.
Aleph: At times.
...
EarthScorpion: Oh, hey
EarthScorpion: Keris has narrowly avoided being a teen mother.
Aleph: : P
Aleph: I think she's coming up on 21 now, actually. Ish.
EarthScorpion: Echo objects to that and says Keris is certainly a teen mother
Aleph: Keris: "Okay, so how old am I? Because all I've got is 'probably between 19 and 21', and I doubt you know any better."
EarthScorpion: Echo points out that she is eleven, so Keris must have had her when she was between eight and ten.
EarthScorpion: (echo gonna echo)
Aleph: Keris: "..."
Aleph: Keris: "Aha! That means that BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, I was not a teen mother!"
EarthScorpion: Echo points out that she was a mother in her teens, so nya.
Aleph: Keris: "... damn."
Aleph: (you cannot out-echo echo)
Aleph: Hee. I do love her being the smartest one.
Aleph: It fits so well.
EarthScorpion: Echo tilts her head, and considers when Keris will become a grandmother and who's the most likely to have children first of them.
EarthScorpion: Echo adds that she wonders if Sasi is a grandmother yet.
...
EarthScorpion: So, among other things, Keris will have certain dietary requirements for her pregnancy.
Aleph: Indeed
EarthScorpion: She'll need to find a diet of food associated with the essence types of the babies.
Aleph: ... this is going to be fun, then.
EarthScorpion: Kali will... um, probably be considerably easier.
Aleph: Yes. Oh, Keris. Eating Tengese gold jewellery as snacks. And silver for Ogin, heh.
EarthScorpion: Oh, I was talking about actual food here. Heavily spicy sun-dried tomatos, for example, are a Kali-favoured food.
Aleph: Ah, kay.
EarthScorpion: Keris can't actually digest metal as it stands, for one. And she's eating for three. : V
Aleph: Yeah, I'll need to look into getting that Metagaos thing sooner rather than later.
EarthScorpion: ... also, uh, her Splintered Gales are going to have phantom pregnancies Which, hmm, actually will be inconvenient, because it means her one for An Teng will appear to be pregnant out of marriage.
Aleph: Well, no, because she can alter them with surgery. And she'll already be altering that one extensively to look Tengese.
EarthScorpion: Ah, fine. Hmm. Probably not actually Tengese, though - that'd make it misbegotten.
Aleph: True. More Tengese, then. Possibly... sigh. An "exotic" half-Tengese-half-Dynast who leans close enough to conventional Tengese looks to pass, but is "exotic" and cultured and posh because she's from the Realm.
EarthScorpion: Keris: "Damn, she's sexy."
Aleph: Sigh. Sareh can have "brought her back" from the Blessed Isle.
...
EarthScorpion: Part of Sasi's tragedy was that she was a genuinely devoted immaculate, the kind that gets moderate Solars going about how it might be lies, but it gets some people doing good things.
Aleph: : (
EarthScorpion: A rather better immaculate than her husband, incidentally.
Aleph: Oh?
EarthScorpion: Well, yes. He was a sorcerer, and was rather more interested in his sorcery than running the satrapy. Pre-Exaltation Sasi was a lot kinder, in a paternalistic, white-imperialism sort of way. She genuinely believed it was her role as her husband's second to ensure that the slaves and serfs in the satrapy would be born to better next lives and that they not be drawn into corruption or temptation and she worried a lot about how her own actions would affect her karma and sought to compensate for the things she liked less about effectively running her husband's satrapy for him.
EarthScorpion: And so if you'd found her, you'd have found a simply dressed (by Dynastic standards) middle-aged woman with a quiet voice and a persuasive manner, seldom seen without a monkly advisor, surprisingly liked by the serfs because she followed the social contract and supported the Order when it brought complaints to her about breaches in the social order.
Aleph: Oh, Sasi. And then she found herself an Anathema. : (
EarthScorpion: Also, looking thirty years younger.
EarthScorpion: Notably, a lot of her change in how she presents herself wasn't from sorcery sacrifice - it was just from the trauma and the rationalisations and the failed suicide attempts. So it's not that she sacrificed that side of her. It's down there, somewhere under the layers and the lies and the "I'm an Anathema and that's... that's a good thing!"
Aleph: Oh, Sasi. Hmm. Whereas Keris was, in a lot of ways, too low to really pick up much of the Immaculate Faith. Honestly, part of that might have been because she got annoyed at their attempts to teach her to read, and so didn't go to their charity events as much - and she was a good enough thief that she didn't need to very often; she could generally find food.
Aleph: And the lure of power and family were far more attractive to her.
EarthScorpion: Aiko is certainly helping bring that side of Sasi out a bit more, at least around her. She won't ever be like that again, but it'd certainly be possible to nudge her back a bit into a more motherly, caring side that's a bit less cynical and who's recaptured some of that quiet faith that things will turn out all right in the end.
Aleph: Heh. You know, if you ever get struck by inspiration, it'd be cool to see a short side-drabble from her PoV.

[1] In the sense of the word where I am speaking to him, but occasionally break off to glare at his Skype window for a while and make creative suggestions about his ancestry, character, intentions and various other qualities colourfully and at length.
 
Wow, Keris is going to have an interesting time getting out of this with a working tongue and voice.

I wonder how many times Ligier has, just for a moment, forgotten that Lilunu isn't actually Ruvelia. And how many times she's noticed him doing it.

I'm guessing that the unpleasant truth serving as Calesco's core is the truth that the Infernal Exaltation is actually a Solar Exaltation with a bunch of stuff glued to its surface? Also, that she doesn't like her real appearance because it's actually quite beautiful and she thinks she doesn't deserve that?

...actually, Calesco seems like she's still working on her self-hatred, given that she's constantly reinforcing it. And, from personal experience, I can tell you that sometimes depressed people are in fact quite blunt about how they feel, because otherwise they can't convince other people that they're worthless.
 
.....ES? It's official. You're clearly Adorjani in nature. That's the only way to explain why you enjoy making Aleph[1]​ suffer like this.

@Aleph Firstly; Oh my! Secondly; Oh dear, and watch out for purple.[2]​

[1]And the readers of the session notes.

[2]Deliberate Problem Calculus to lessen chances of a Signature Scorpion Surprise later?
 
So Keris's dirty dream got detected by Kimbery, who gave her children based on the dream? Or did Keris subconsciously use one of her charms to auto-impregnate?

The mental argument was pretty interesting too. Nobody had any ground to stand on because they were all guilty of what they claimed to be fighting against. Keris' position is probably even worse because she's actively thinking about how power abuse is a problem and needs to stop, but then she summons up a demon and renders it into vitriol to pursue her own projects. Really flighty thought pattern there.
 
I am not speaking to @EarthScorpion right now [1].

I'm not even gonna comment on what happened. Read it for yourselves. Fucker pulled another Rat, the frelling... grrrr.
But... she just wants to help you by tutoring another charm :(
Why you no love her?

Edit: also, did Keris accidentally Great Mother's Wame? Without realizing it for a month? Cause that would be hilarious.

Edit2:
The mental argument was pretty interesting too. Nobody had any ground to stand on because they were all guilty of what they claimed to be fighting against. Keris' position is probably even worse because she's actively thinking about how power abuse is a problem and needs to stop, but then she summons up a demon and renders it into vitriol to pursue her own projects. Really flighty thought pattern there.
Serfs aren't people, they are really well crafted Expert Machines with the ability to gain true sapience and thus Citizenship.
 
Last edited:
Edit: also, did Keris accidentally Great Mother's Wame? Without realizing it for a month? Cause that would be hilarious.

When I looked over her character sheet and noticed the charms sitting there and then asked about them... yeah, yeah that's about the right answer. There is a more detailed explanation about the whole mechanics of it that will probably make up a chunk of future updates.
 
Hey, does anyone know how to mod Anathema for Flat XP cost for Abilities and attributes?

Because, well, Anathema doesn't have the option to switch to flat xp, and while I could use it without calcing XP in, I would then need t0 open a word document to keep track of XP.

Edit: It's the most common House rule there is, cause otherwise a bad charge-in screws you over.
 
Last edited:
Wow, Keris is going to have an interesting time getting out of this with a working tongue and voice.
Eh, she has anti-Crippling Charms, it'll be fine. Probably.
I'm guessing that the unpleasant truth serving as Calesco's core is the truth that the Infernal Exaltation is actually a Solar Exaltation with a bunch of stuff glued to its surface? Also, that she doesn't like her real appearance because it's actually quite beautiful and she thinks she doesn't deserve that?
No, you can see Calesco's truth in Keris's Principles - it's the fact that hurting things is easy, and helping things is hard; that love usually brings pain and power turns people into monsters. She sees the ugliness of the world, and she cares too much to just ignore it.

And trust me, she has a very good reason for covering up her real appearance beneath her veils. A lot better than "I don't deserve to be pretty". :p
The mental argument was pretty interesting too. Nobody had any ground to stand on because they were all guilty of what they claimed to be fighting against. Keris' position is probably even worse because she's actively thinking about how power abuse is a problem and needs to stop, but then she summons up a demon and renders it into vitriol to pursue her own projects. Really flighty thought pattern there.
Bit more nuance than that. Notably, Keris hasn't lost 4-dot Get Revenge Principle. If a demon has hurt or tried to hurt her personally, she's entirely comfortable doing whatever to them - it's just balanced by compassion to normal ones. She considered this when the Paricehet first asked for sacrifices, if you recall, and Rathan gave her the solution. Hence, she's relatively fine with using demon slavers, soldiers and rival gangs hostile to her as a source of parts - and with summoning she can to some extent specify what sort of demon she gets ("I summon a demon hostile to me/which loves Ululaya").
Edit: also, did Keris accidentally Great Mother's Wame? Without realizing it for a month? Cause that would be hilarious.
When I looked over her character sheet and noticed the charms sitting there and then asked about them... yeah, yeah that's about the right answer. There is a more detailed explanation about the whole mechanics of it that will probably make up a chunk of future updates.
Yes, pretty much. Sigh. Dammit Keris. This is the problem with learning charms instinctively. And also with not tasting your body frequently using your enhanced senses.

Of course, if Haneyl had left it much longer, their hearts would have developed and started beating - which happens really early, apparently - and she'd have heard them. Which would still probably have been something of a shock, though probably less of one than having it dropped on her mid-conversation in front of two Unquestionable and however many citizens.

Sasi: "Like mother, like daughter."
Haneyl: "I th-thought she knew!"
Sasi: "Like mother. Like daughter."
 
That is a victim of you comming from the second and not the first edition as there the diffference between extras and regular and heroics was much lower. "3/7/7 health levels, Can't Stunt&explode dices /can get 2 sucess on a 10/ Can do that and get 2 point stunts.

That was the basic difference between them.
Hmm. So in 1e, they were a tool for streamlining combat and getting rid of Stunts. That doesn't seem to make them a simplification in 2e and 2½e.
 
Out of interest, what other exceptions are you referring to - beyond those - that outweigh the benefits of streamlining?
 
Out of interest, what other exceptions are you referring to - beyond those - that outweigh the benefits of streamlining?
Various Charms working, not working, or working differently against Extras than against non-Extras. E.g. pickpocketing artifacts or stuff in active use doesn't work against non-Extras as easily; all-seeing sun not allowing one to sense stuff around solo Extras; I heard that Abyssals have even more such interactions. The fact that they have de facto 1 hitbox instead of 3 for the purposes of Enduring Wilderness (i.e. they perish on a failed roll). Automatic Defences working only against Extras but not against others. The exception to army power (armies made of non-Extras count as slightly over two times larger for the purpose of calculating Magnitude). The Mob Rule making the GM recalculate unit HP if the only available replacement commander is an Extra. The fact that Automatic Success is sometimes applicable against Extras where it normally would look dubious (social interactions). The fact that hitbox differences influence in-setting decisions such as how much blood can be sacrificed to ghosts (and how much Essence gained).

Also, the fact that applying damage to Extras involves division by three doesn't feel like a simplification compared to rolling the dice. If anything, just giving them the usual number of hitboxes but saying that half of the damage dice are converted into successes instead of rolling would've been faster.

Oh, BTW, the purpose of Extras is pretty explicit, and it's wimpification, not simplification:
Extras said:
As a cinematic high-action game, Exalted assumes that
protagonists and major supporting characters will scythe through
legions of minions and flunkies with comparative ease. Within
the combat rules, the concept of extras reinforces this idea
. Simply
put, an extra is a nameless, faceless adversary of no particular
consequence, dangerous only in mass numbers. From a narrative
sense, extras serve several functions. First, they provide animate
scenery upon which protagonists can show off their phenomenal
skill and powers. On the reverse side, they slow down the Chosen
and/or force them to waste precious Essence before they can face the
"real" enemies.

I hope that given all those factors, you will understand the reasons for my opinion of the purpose of Extras not a simplifying/streamlining/shorthand device, but a tool for making heroes look more powerful/heroic/important by use of contrast.
 
@vicky_molokh I can't speak to all of your other abstractions, but I can throw in a 2e-ism about why you can't steal attuned artifacts from non-Extras.

The basic rationale is that an Artifact is a Dot Rating, a Background entry on your sheet, and mechanically identified as a Trait. Traits are explicitly called out in the rules as things you can defend (with the appropriate mechanics).

More directly, an Artifact is as important to your character as a limb- and quite often a significant tactical or strategic investment. Losing one easily is a huge setback, often equal to that of having an arm or leg cut off.

Now, I can't say that Extras do/don't have traits, but I can say that they're not intended to defend those traits as stringently as a PC or NPC.
 
Also, the fact that applying damage to Extras involves division by three doesn't feel like a simplification compared to rolling the dice. If anything, just giving them the usual number of hitboxes but saying that half of the damage dice are converted into successes instead of rolling would've been faster.
Dividing specifically by three is a system-side consistency issue put in place because the game makes a clear distinction earlier in the book that players will assumedly be gaining +1 autosuccess per three dice rolled. Since the final pool of damage being rolled in Step 10 is a player-facing mechanic which can have Charm/effect hooks attached to it (like Abyssal life-drain rewards, as-mentioned, or other HL-determined effects like the Soulsteel weapon bonus) the use of three rather than half exists so the math works out equally well and the player is not being incentivized more by farming "phantom damage dice" targeting Extras as inconsequential opponents than she would have otherwise.

I hope that given all those factors, you will understand the reasons for my opinion of the purpose of Extras not a simplifying/streamlining/shorthand device, but a tool for making heroes look more powerful/heroic/important by use of contrast.
It is both, to be honest, and also a sorting tool for driving PCs towards engaging actual, named NPCs rather than standing safely in the back and clearing wave after wave of disposable chaff. This is another thing which largely comes across with Abyssals, as they explicitly have Charms which outright kill Extras rather than using the full effects, combined with Charms which reward them for inflicting damage and causing deaths. So much like the "less motes received for blood-sacrifice" deal, the intention is that to get the greatest return for the effort and time, the character attempting to make use of such effects extensively needs to seek out people who actually matter in the grand scheme of things and not simply camp out in a dark alleyway eating passersby until her mote pools refill.
 
Oh, BTW, the purpose of Extras is pretty explicit, and it's wimpification, not simplification

I hope that given all those factors, you will understand the reasons for my opinion of the purpose of Extras not a simplifying/streamlining/shorthand device, but a tool for making heroes look more powerful/heroic/important by use of contrast.
Thank you! I'm going to say that they also should be simplified - this is something 2e sort of failed at, but if they're there to be mooks then they should be easy to use as mooks; meaning you should be able to generate and mechanise them as quickly and simply as possible. So given this definition, how does it make sense to distinguish them? What is the logical way to define an extra? Not Motivation, which has no intuitive causative link to how powerful or important a character is. An extra isn't an extra because they have an unheroic Motivation; they have an unheroic Motivation because they're an extra.

No, if the purpose of extras is as mobile scenery; to be the unimportant mooks that are "equipment" intended to contrast the - as you say - important and powerful characters, then I think it makes sense that the definition of an extra is how narratively important the character is. And specifically, how important it is to give them a fully written-up traits. Let's consider Three Jade Plum; a wealthy merchant who's trying to get an important deal to become a supplier for a small city in the Scavenger Lands. His Motivation is nothing special - "profit from trade and live comfortably". However, he's going up against a merchant with sympathies to Thorns, who if they sink their hooks into this city will quickly make it dependent on them. The protagonist Solars, for fairly obvious reasons, do not want this.

Three Jade Plum isn't special. He's not doing what he's doing for any grand reason, it's just normal business to him. He's not even aware of the dark forces behind his bidding rival. The Solars can't make this deal for him - they're a fairly fighty group and they need to move on and keep fighting the forces of death soon. They just want to make sure he gets the deal so that this city doesn't fall to the Dead.

In this situation, Three Jade Plum is clearly not a heroic mortal. If they met him under other circumstances, he'd be an extra. But in this case, his stats are important - crucial, in fact - because they dictate whether or not he's going to get the deal (and that's the sort of thing you want to roll for). The Solars can do things to support him - they can buff him by giving him tips, making him look good to the city council, sabotaging his rival, etc - but this is still a situation where you're probably going to want to roll to see if he gets the contract or not. So he's not an extra, either. And that's because of his narrative importance, rather than anything else.
 
Thank you! I'm going to say that they also should be simplified - this is something 2e sort of failed at, but if they're there to be mooks then they should be easy to use as mooks; meaning you should be able to generate and mechanise them as quickly and simply as possible. So given this definition, how does it make sense to distinguish them? What is the logical way to define an extra? Not Motivation, which has no intuitive causative link to how powerful or important a character is. An extra isn't an extra because they have an unheroic Motivation; they have an unheroic Motivation because they're an extra.

No, if the purpose of extras is as mobile scenery; to be the unimportant mooks that are "equipment" intended to contrast the - as you say - important and powerful characters, then I think it makes sense that the definition of an extra is how narratively important the character is. And specifically, how important it is to give them a fully written-up traits. Let's consider Three Jade Plum; a wealthy merchant who's trying to get an important deal to become a supplier for a small city in the Scavenger Lands. His Motivation is nothing special - "profit from trade and live comfortably". However, he's going up against a merchant with sympathies to Thorns, who if they sink their hooks into this city will quickly make it dependent on them. The protagonist Solars, for fairly obvious reasons, do not want this.

Three Jade Plum isn't special. He's not doing what he's doing for any grand reason, it's just normal business to him. He's not even aware of the dark forces behind his bidding rival. The Solars can't make this deal for him - they're a fairly fighty group and they need to move on and keep fighting the forces of death soon. They just want to make sure he gets the deal so that this city doesn't fall to the Dead.

In this situation, Three Jade Plum is clearly not a heroic mortal. If they met him under other circumstances, he'd be an extra. But in this case, his stats are important - crucial, in fact - because they dictate whether or not he's going to get the deal (and that's the sort of thing you want to roll for). The Solars can do things to support him - they can buff him by giving him tips, making him look good to the city council, sabotaging his rival, etc - but this is still a situation where you're probably going to want to roll to see if he gets the contract or not. So he's not an extra, either. And that's because of his narrative importance, rather than anything else.

This is certainly a very viable way of handling simplified mooks/extras vs. narratively significant characters. However, I do not get the impression that the system failed at doing it; I get the impression that it was pursuing a different goal in the first place. As in, I would be wary of using 'failed' for 'neither tried nor intended'.
 
Last edited:
This is certainly a very viable way of handling simplified mooks/extras vs. narratively significant characters. However, I do not get the impression that the system failed at doing it; I get the impression that it was pursuing a different goal in the first place.
Remember also that Motivation is something that is genuine 2E, the only trait that was mechanically needed for example to exalt in first Edition was "Have at least one virtue at 3" which was coupled with the great curse and its mechanical implementation but was called out in the flaw about reduced virtues.

And the System falling at things is nothing really new there. And all characters whose Individual actions matter are narative important and so are usually handled as non extras anyway.
 
This is certainly a very viable way of handling simplified mooks/extras vs. narratively significant characters. However, I do not get the impression that the system failed at doing it; I get the impression that it was pursuing a different goal in the first place.

Extras are literally called Extras. I don't think there's a single name you could call them which would more exemplify the idea that they're narratively unimportant background characters.

Also, the fact that applying damage to Extras involves division by three doesn't feel like a simplification compared to rolling the dice. If anything, just giving them the usual number of hitboxes but saying that half of the damage dice are converted into successes instead of rolling would've been faster.

It would also be wrong. Outright, flat out, factually wrong.

Damage dice don't count 10s double. Damage dice are worth 0.4 of a success, not 0.5. Halving the pool would mean you'd be getting increased damage with no risk, so you'd always want to take your damage dice as successes. 1/3rd is closer to 0.4 than 0.5.

I hope that given all those factors, you will understand the reasons for my opinion of the purpose of Extras not a simplifying/streamlining/shorthand device, but a tool for making heroes look more powerful/heroic/important by use of contrast.

When other people are saying things like "Extras don't matter, and thus have simplified rules" you are ignoring them when you try to pretend that there's some kind of dramatic dichotomy between "simplification" and "wimpification". There's not. The two facets are co-dependent and co-reliant.

Extras don't matter. Like I said. And so they get a simplified ruleset to represent their narrative unimportance. If they were important, then they wouldn't be extras. Like I said.

Extras are extras in a scene. The clue is kind of in the name.
 
It would also be wrong. Outright, flat out, factually wrong.

Damage dice don't count 10s double. Damage dice are worth 0.4 of a success, not 0.5. Halving the pool would mean you'd be getting increased damage with no risk, so you'd always want to take your damage dice as successes. 1/3rd is closer to 0.4 than 0.5.
Note that I proposed doing this combined with getting rid of a difference in the number of hitboxes. So the net effect isn't as pronounced: 10 dice used to score 4 damage on an Extra in RAW, out of 3 hitboxes; under the proposed variant, it does 5 damage against 7 hitboxes. It is (or would be), however, less straining on our math-impaired player of a sorcerer.

When other people are saying things like "Extras don't matter, and thus have simplified rules" you are ignoring them when you try to pretend that there's some kind of dramatic dichotomy between "simplification" and "wimpification". There's not. The two facets are co-dependent and co-reliant.

Extras don't matter. Like I said. And so they get a simplified ruleset to represent their narrative unimportance. If they were important, then they wouldn't be extras. Like I said.

Extras are extras in a scene. The clue is kind of in the name.
I'll try to elaborate:
people say that Extra rules are simpler than regular rules; I say that the existence of two rules variations for certain activities and Charms undercuts the whole idea of making them simpler, because most often the alternative rules aren't necessarily simpler. For instance, Extras having 3 hitboxes supposedly simplifies combat results, but returns the complexity in the form of needing another rule for calculating damage against them and for differentiating Extra and non-Extra commanders and armies.

Now, not Stunting/Channelling is what does seem like a genuine simplification, but other rules distinctions between the two don't.
 
Note that I proposed doing this combined with getting rid of a difference in the number of hitboxes. So the net effect isn't as pronounced: 10 dice used to score 4 damage on an Extra in RAW, out of 3 hitboxes; under the proposed variant, it does 5 damage against 7 hitboxes. It is (or would be), however, less straining on our math-impaired player of a sorcerer.


I'll try to elaborate:
people say that Extra rules are simpler than regular rules; I say that the existence of two rules variations for certain activities and Charms undercuts the whole idea of making them simpler, because most often the alternative rules aren't necessarily simpler. For instance, Extras having 3 hitboxes supposedly simplifies combat results, but returns the complexity in the form of needing another rule for calculating damage against them and for differentiating Extra and non-Extra commanders and armies.

Now, not Stunting/Channelling is what does seem like a genuine simplification, but other rules distinctions between the two don't.
That is because you search for the fault in the Extras and not in the Mass Combat system which on its whole has far more problems and so is just showcasting that while interacting with the extras.
 
Last edited:
And the System falling at things is nothing really new there.
I think this is something of an important qualifier to keep in mind when discussing Exalted with old hands.

You remember all these previous discussions we've had about how X rule or Y bit of canon background is dumb? No I won't ask anybody to recall specific examples, it's enough to understand that it's been a running theme of this thread. The thing is, the effect of these discussions is not limited to the things they they judged. In aggregate, they also damage trust in the writers and the material as a whole.

So, one can look at the rules for Extra's and, giving the benefit of the doubt, declare that they're a successful implementation of a different design principle than they at first seem... But people like me, EarthScorpion and Aleph approach these rules with the background knowledge of so many other places that Exalted has been shoddily designed. We don't trust the writers or the material enough to give it that benefit of the doubt. It seems much more likely to us that the simplest explanation, that the rules for extras are there as narrative simplification, is best, and later rules that seem to go against this concept are mistakes. That fits with what we know of Exalted's writing history.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top