Note that I said "if someone looks too closely". It's not a given that someone will or even should look too closely. But apparently people like ES won't let go the fact that crossbows are hard to invent in Creation, even though apparently even Grabowski was okay with it (and most likely went with it in order to produce a warfare aesthetic that differs from our world).

Also, I think you misunderstood my comment about Least Gods. It wasn't about gods deliberately stunting proliferation of crossbows. It was about the animism of the setting, and the fact that non-Haslanti don't know the secrets required to make the animistic entity responsible for the behaviour of this piece of wood behave like a bow when used as a crossbow (i.e. shoot arrows). Remember how werewolves in WoD scare the spirit of a knife so it stops cutting? Well, what if the least god of the wooden arch doesn't even normally launch arrows unless one treats it properly? That was the idea for a justification. But apparently the animism of the setting goes out the window when discussing combat machines such as missile weapons.
Yes, and the reason they won't let go of it is that there is no difference between a crossbow and a bow. By that logic, you get swords being impossible because you don't know how to make a bit of metal behave like a knife when used as a sword. You get pots being impossible because you don't know how to make a clay container hold water when you use it like a pot instead of a bowl. You get gloves being impossible because you don't know the secrets of how to make fabric behave like a sock when you put it on your hands; if any this is sounding retarded it's because it is.

There is literally no qualitative difference between a shortbow and a crossbow except that one is mounted sideways and usually more powerful because you don't need to hold it back with your fingers. That's it. And since we do not see any indication that you need mysterious secret knowledge of how to whisper to the least gods in order to make socks, carry water in a pot instead of a bowl or hit someone with a long sharp bit of metal, I think it's fair to say that "secrets" on this level are not very secret.

Edit: It's not even internally consistent, since the mechanics within the bow are the same in both cases. The only difference is what you hold it back with; your fingers or a catch - and if that's the least god interaction that's secret and impossible, then your view is essentially saying that if I draw a longbow back with a wooden hook instead of with my fingers, and then let go, it won't fire. I think we can all agree that this is stupid.
 
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Reminds who of what? If English actually isn't your first language, I think your inexperience is showing. (For the first time to me, actually. You're normally quite good at it.)
I directly included your quote right above. Specifically, you said: "It seems a bit like bible study, actually. There are a number of ways to read the exact same material, and if you don't have a close relationship with the authors, there's no definitive way to confirm any reading as correct. "
I too see a certain similarity to such a text-interpreting activity, with the issues that you described.

Yes, and the reason they won't let go of it is that there is no difference between a crossbow and a bow. By that logic, you get swords being impossible because you don't know how to make a bit of metal behave like a knife when used as a sword. You get pots being impossible because you don't know how to make a clay container hold water when you use it like a pot instead of a bowl. You get gloves being impossible because you don't know the secrets of how to make fabric behave like a sock when you put it on your hands; if any this is sounding retarded it's because it is. There is literally no qualitative difference between a shortbow and a crossbow except that one is mounted sideways and usually more powerful because you don't need to hold it back with your fingers. That's it. And since we do not see any indication that you need mysterious secret knowledge of how to whisper to the least gods in order to make socks, carry water in a pot instead of a bowl or hit someone with a long sharp bit of metal, I think it's fair to say that "secrets" on this level are not very secret.
Well, yeah, you can't do it if you know how. But the majority of civilized crafters know how. For most, but not necessarily all, technologies appropriate to their tech-era. That's what crafting knowledge means: having information about how to perform a crafting action that is not self-evident/obvious. And in a world where tools work because they have tool-spirits inside, it should not be assumed that bows and crossbows are the same thing. (I vaguely recall Jenna Moran's essay about how toads and frogs can be very different things from a metaphysical PoV, but that was in a non-Exalted context.)
 
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Crossbows are probably more a weapon for mortals than for Exalts, because unless you're using rare/magical materials a combat-focused Exalt can probably handle more draw weight than a crossbow's mechanisms can. Orichalcum crossbows, of course, are probably a thing a Solar would use

Crossbows would necessitate Mass Combat rules that aren't a steaming pile of shit, though, because barring a lot of Charm use any Solar who tries to charge a unit of crossbowmen on their own is getting turned into a pincushion. And that runs into the problem that the devteam reacts to any suggestion they should provide mechanical support for anything that's not one-on-one social/physical combat the same way the average vampire reacts to sunlight.
 
I directly included your quote right above. Specifically, you said: "It seems a bit like bible study, actually. There are a number of ways to read the exact same material, and if you don't have a close relationship with the authors, there's no definitive way to confirm any reading as correct. "
I too see a certain similarity to such a text-interpreting activity, with the issues that you described.


Well, yeah, you can't do it if you know how. But the majority of civilized crafters know how. That's what crafting knowledge means: having information about how to perform a crafting action that is not self-evident/obvious. And in a world where tools work because they have tool-spirits inside, it should not be assumed that bows and crossbows are the same thing. (I vaguely recall Jenna Moran's essay about how toads and frogs can be very different things from a metaphysical PoV, but that was in a non-Exalted context.)
You make a fundamental mistake there with mixing up appereance, motonic physics and Gods and little Gods. Little Gods , the things that make Creation "work" are not self aware and Gods have no metaphysical connection to there domain. Kill the god of a river and nothing spiritual will change for it.
 
Fossyi, the Necrophore King
Demon of the Third Circle
Fourth Soul of the Shadow of All Things


Upon the border of the blasted plain where Oramus lies eternally chained, a demon prince makes his lair. Amidst broken white stone, a granite stepped pyramid rises. It is covered in scars from the omen weather that rolls off the Dragon Outside the World. Its towers are squat and sheathed in lead, and its lower levels delve deep into the Malfean catacombs. Those who venture into the tunnels that riddle it will find golems that resemble the dead and a prodigious collection of ghosts, human and otherwise. This is the domain of Fossyi, the shunned demon prince who dabbles in the abhorrent secrets of death and so is rejected by his peers.

Broad shouldered and a good three metres tall, Fossyi cuts an imposing figure. His blue-black skin has the sheen of an insect's shell, and he habitually decorates himself with red warpaint in intricate patterns. His preferred weapon is a razor-edged club and his hair - which resembles dreadlocks from a distance - is revealed to be a mess of antenna. When the urge strikes him he can cast off his cloak made of flesh-eating insects to devour a settlement that has offended him, leaving a stripped-bare wasteland. His semblance is marred by milkiness that spreads over his left eye and withering in his left arm and leg that means his club has become a crutch. He is sickened by his studies, but still he persists.

Once the Necrophore King was primarily a collector of souls, one who recorded his greater self's love of the damned and dying and kept eternal memoirs of those now departed. Through his efforts he managed to obtain examples of many species long-since eradicated by the victorious Exalted or wiped out by negligent titans - examples of the alluyan, era'teen and salmanyek exist within his catalogue among more common humans and beasts of Creation. Some might argue that it is in some way 'cheating' to re-create a long extinct species just so that one can collect their souls, but the Necrophore King disagrees. Though such things are the prize of his collection, he also possesses ancient texts, artwork and preserved corpses from extinct species.

One summoning changed his nature, however. His binding by one of the Black Nadir Concordat was what introduced him to the fell art he studies. His cooperation was at first grudging, but the discovery of that forbidden art was something he embraced wholly - indeed, certain among the Deliberative blamed his influence for the actions of the young Solars who profaned the tombs of the Neverborn. He claims credit for devising their scheme, but he lies. They had already set their goal - all he served was as a source of knowledge about long-dead races and on the former nature of the slain Primordials.

Still, he took what he considers to be his fair share of the prize and damned the cost of the blight that took root in his left side. Fossyi was the first necromancer of Hell and is probably its greatest practitioner - a comment which would be somewhat more meaningful if he had more rivals for the title.

His forbidden knowledge is an affliction and despite his pretences Fossyi loathes his withering. He will not give up the practice of the magic that causes it, however. At heart it comes from his natural inability to handle necrotic essence. He must drain it from ghost-slaves and draw it from the sacrifice of living beings, containing it within lead and bone, and it poisons his Yozi-spawned nature when he shapes it. He seeks a cure - or at least a way to better protect himself - and he has had treatings with the moon-witches of Luna which have given him tools that slow its progression. Perhaps, he wonders, the returned princes of the sun and the rumoured dead princes may be able to aid him with the next step?

In the meantime, the Necrophore King has thousands of years of experience with the necromantic arts. He cannot attain its true depths, but he has breadth on his side. He has dabbled in necrosurgery - viewing it inferior to demon-breeding - though before he gave up his hobby he wrote several great tomes on the reanimation of demon flesh that have never yet made their way to Creation. After the Contagion he purchased countless ghosts from the Underworld when they were glutted with cheap slaves, and a few of those Shogunate ghosts have not yet been rendered down for one experiment or another. Some strange magics have been devised which use the bulk of Oramus as a focus for workings with the dread numerology of the Labyrinth, but so far Fossyi has not been able to divine an escape from Hell through impossibility himself.

The laws of Hell forbid much of what he does, but he considers himself beyond them. Orabilis does not agree, which is one of the reasons that Fossyi hides himself in the wastes around Oramus and slays the spies that come to watch on him. The Priests of Cecelyne dog his agents and slay them whenever they find them. He himself escapes censure because he is Unquestionable, but his servants are not so lucky.

Such a convention might be broken if his darkest secret were discovered. He has set up a school of necromancy within Hell, and teaches first circles - mostly to spit in Orabilis' eyes. His school is mostly notable for the aspects of that dread art it is ignorant of - deprived of access to the Underworld, most of the fruitful aspects of research are cut off leaving it largely focussed on the manipulation of slave-ghosts and matters of the soul and highly theoretical. When the Necrophore King casts necromancy his affliction worsens, thus he must carefully limit his exposure to necrotic essence and seek to be as efficient as possible with his workings - and his knowledge there might be valuable for one who wishes to advance the art.

Fossyi wriggles loose from Hell upon the death of one beloved by a nation who dies from slow wasting over many years. Such a release lasts only until their burial ceremonies are complete, and he solemnly aids in the proceedings. Otherwise, he can escape whenever the remains of an extinct species are dug up during the hour past midnight, though he is forced to disguise himself as a one-eyed mortal to avoid the eyes of heaven. Then he will challenge the finder to a game of chance, wagering obsidian coins for ownership of the newfound relic. Regardless of the outcome, he will attempt to bet more and more, until the stakes include the soul of the finder. Once the hour ends, however, Fossyi departs - dragging everything he won back to Hell with him.

Notes and Abilities: Sorcerers call upon Fossyi for his knowledge of extinct races and his mastery of the soul. He cannot bring a deceased spirit back to life, but he can flense a sacrifice of their memories of the dead and create a golem which serves as a testament to those recollections, acting as the recollections without creativity or the spark of true life. The desperate and bereaved might be willing to accept such an imitation as their lost love.

He can also extract the living souls from a host and store them within a jar - though not reattach them. The Black Nadir Concordat made use of such trapped living souls as tools in their dark delvings. Much to his annoyance, the souls of the Exalted merely scorch his hands and do not respond to his touch.

When bound, Fossyi will seldom willingly use his necromancy unless forced, because he fears the worsening of his affliction from too-casual use of necrotic essence. Should the sorcerer also be a necromancer, however, he is an excellent source of Iron Circle spells and has studied some Labyrinth Circle workings. He has found that he can dispel necromancy as if it was sorcery using his natural Ophidian essence, however, and thus a summoner may make use of him to break workings of a hostile necromancer - reaching even the Void Circle, though Fossyi will suffer tremendously from the backlash.
 
You make a fundamental mistake there with mixing up appereance, motonic physics and Gods and little Gods. Little Gods , the things that make Creation "work" are not self aware and Gods have no metaphysical connection to there domain. Kill the god of a river and nothing spiritual will change for it.
Not the little gods in Yu-Shan. Least Gods in the thing:

"Everything of Creation has a god to watch over it, be it a stalk of wheat or a pebble on the road. Most of these gods are single-minded beings, with divine influence limited in scope to single thing. These tiny gods are tasked with the care of a particular object or plant of little import to Creation except in conglomerate."
"Everything in Creation has a Least God -- every rock, every pebble, every sword, every spoke of every wheel has a Least God. The Least God of a sword sits in the sword and makes sure it behaves in a sword-ish manner -- it cuts things, it stays made of metal, its temperature remains constant with that of its environment, it does not spontaneously combust, etc. Most of the time, swords don't do that sort of thing anyway, so the Least God of a sword spends the vast majority of the time asleep. Ideally, if something unusual happens to the sword, the sword's Least God is supposed to report it to its supervisor, which would be... "
 
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Not the little gods in Yu-Shan. Least Gods in the thing:

"Everything of Creation has a god to watch over it, be it a stalk of wheat or a pebble on the road. Most of these gods are single-minded beings, with divine influence limited in scope to single thing. These tiny gods are tasked with the care of a particular object or plant of little import to Creation except in conglomerate."
"Everything in Creation has a Least God -- every rock, every pebble, every sword, every spoke of every wheel has a Least God. The Least God of a sword sits in the sword and makes sure it behaves in a sword-ish manner -- it cuts things, it stays made of metal, its temperature remains constant with that of its environment, it does not spontaneously combust, etc. Most of the time, swords don't do that sort of thing anyway, so the Least God of a sword spends the vast majority of the time asleep. Ideally, if something unusual happens to the sword, the sword's Least God is supposed to report it to its supervisor, which would be... "
Yeah my bad those are who I meant. They are for the most part asleep/unaware as you yourself quoted even if the item is in use and so they lack both the mental capabilities as the motivation to act.
 
Yeah my bad those are who I meant. They are for the most part asleep/unaware as you yourself quoted even if the item is in use and so they lack both the mental capabilities as the motivation to act.
Yeah. Under normal circumstances. But you want the least god of bows to make the arch of wood behave in a crossbow-like manner. How do you do that? Do you teach the least god a new trick? Do you act as a matchmaker and somehow encourage it to have a kid with the trigger-mechanism-god, and raise the kid as the least god of crossbows? You're trying to make a tool that behaves differently. A new tool, for which the run-of-the-mill least god of bows is not quite suitable.
 
Yeah. Under normal circumstances. But you want the least god of bows to make the arch of wood behave in a crossbow-like manner. How do you do that? Do you teach the least god a new trick? Do you act as a matchmaker and somehow encourage it to have a kid with the trigger-mechanism-god, and raise the kid as the least god of crossbows? You're trying to make a tool that behaves differently. A new tool, for which the run-of-the-mill least god of bows is not quite suitable.
Why not? A crossbow is a normal bow turned on its side and hammered to a couple pieces of wood, at its most basic. All the Least God has to do is the exact same thing it does as a bow. And given that the least gods of swords are asleep most of the time, one draws the conclusion that so will that of bows. The least god will likely not notice the difference, and will behave in the exact same way which, funnily enough, is exactly what we want it to do.
 
Yeah. Under normal circumstances. But you want the least god of bows to make the arch of wood behave in a crossbow-like manner. How do you do that? Do you teach the least god a new trick? Do you act as a matchmaker and somehow encourage it to have a kid with the trigger-mechanism-god, and raise the kid as the least god of crossbows? You're trying to make a tool that behaves differently. A new tool, for which the run-of-the-mill least god of bows is not quite suitable.
... you seem to be mixing up cause and effect here. Least gods are generated automatically for things - we know this from how other gods work, if a new river shows up it gets a god assigned to it; it's not impossible for it to form in the first place just because it has no god saying there's a river there. You don't need to generate the least god first in order to make the thing. What you're proposing would make it impossible to invent anything new, or even slightly novel without least god husbandry. To which I respond "so, how about those 'wheel' things; did the genius minds of the Exalted have to be involved in those? Have mortals never made any advances ever, on their own?"

Dude, this is pretty evidently not the case. Mortals can invent things. A least god of a crossbow will just enforce already existent rules. They're a metaphor for consistent laws of physics with an animistic bent. They'll maintain things like "wood flexes", "string doesn't spontaneously catch fire", "metal does not turn blue and become a liquid under tension". Those are, stunningly, the exact same rules that a bow uses. Thus, a crossbow works fine.
 
Yeah. Under normal circumstances. But you want the least god of bows to make the arch of wood behave in a crossbow-like manner. How do you do that? Do you teach the least god a new trick? Do you act as a matchmaker and somehow encourage it to have a kid with the trigger-mechanism-god, and raise the kid as the least god of crossbows? You're trying to make a tool that behaves differently. A new tool, for which the run-of-the-mill least god of bows is not quite suitable.
The least god is not saying "hey wood do X" its saying "Physics here continues to work, as it should be in the motonic system , wake me if the wyld happens" to do a simplication.
The Setting is animistic in that everything has a god, but it is a chinese bureaucratic god , not a active western one.
 
Historically, there were plenty of people who could have, and probably should have, used crossbows, but didn't. Like the Romans.
 
Yeah. Under normal circumstances. But you want the least god of bows to make the arch of wood behave in a crossbow-like manner. How do you do that? Do you teach the least god a new trick? Do you act as a matchmaker and somehow encourage it to have a kid with the trigger-mechanism-god, and raise the kid as the least god of crossbows? You're trying to make a tool that behaves differently. A new tool, for which the run-of-the-mill least god of bows is not quite suitable.
How is acting like a crossbow different from acting like a bow? Hint: it's not in the bow part. It's in the fact that it's sideways with a block preventing the string from snapping back, essentially the same as a finger holding it back simply made out of a stronger material and anchored to something, thus allowing a stronger bow.
 
Fossyi, the Necrophore King
Demon of the Third Circle
Fourth Soul of the Shadow of All Things


Upon the border of the blasted plain where Oramus lies eternally chained, a demon prince makes his lair. Amidst broken white stone, a granite stepped pyramid rises. It is covered in scars from the omen weather that rolls off the Dragon Outside the World. Its towers are squat and sheathed in lead, and its lower levels delve deep into the Malfean catacombs. Those who venture into the tunnels that riddle it will find golems that resemble the dead and a prodigious collection of ghosts, human and otherwise. This is the domain of Fossyi, the shunned demon prince who dabbles in the abhorrent secrets of death and so is rejected by his peers.

Broad shouldered and a good three metres tall, Fossyi cuts an imposing figure. His blue-black skin has the sheen of an insect's shell, and he habitually decorates himself with red warpaint in intricate patterns. His preferred weapon is a razor-edged club and his hair - which resembles dreadlocks from a distance - is revealed to be a mess of antenna. When the urge strikes him he can cast off his cloak made of flesh-eating insects to devour a settlement that has offended him, leaving a stripped-bare wasteland. His semblance is marred by milkiness that spreads over his left eye and withering in his left arm and leg that means his club has become a crutch. He is sickened by his studies, but still he persists.

Once the Necrophore King was primarily a collector of souls, one who recorded his greater self's love of the damned and dying and kept eternal memoirs of those now departed. Through his efforts he managed to obtain examples of many species long-since eradicated by the victorious Exalted or wiped out by negligent titans - examples of the alluyan, era'teen and salmanyek exist within his catalogue among more common humans and beasts of Creation. Some might argue that it is in some way 'cheating' to re-create a long extinct species just so that one can collect their souls, but the Necrophore King disagrees. Though such things are the prize of his collection, he also possesses ancient texts, artwork and preserved corpses from extinct species.

One summoning changed his nature, however. His binding by one of the Black Nadir Concordat was what introduced him to the fell art he studies. His cooperation was at first grudging, but the discovery of that forbidden art was something he embraced wholly - indeed, certain among the Deliberative blamed his influence for the actions of the young Solars who profaned the tombs of the Neverborn. He claims credit for devising their scheme, but he lies. They had already set their goal - all he served was as a source of knowledge about long-dead races and on the former nature of the slain Primordials.

Still, he took what he considers to be his fair share of the prize and damned the cost of the blight that took root in his left side. Fossyi was the first necromancer of Hell and is probably its greatest practitioner - a comment which would be somewhat more meaningful if he had more rivals for the title.

His forbidden knowledge is an affliction and despite his pretences Fossyi loathes his withering. He will not give up the practice of the magic that causes it, however. At heart it comes from his natural inability to handle necrotic essence. He must drain it from ghost-slaves and draw it from the sacrifice of living beings, containing it within lead and bone, and it poisons his Yozi-spawned nature when he shapes it. He seeks a cure - or at least a way to better protect himself - and he has had treatings with the moon-witches of Luna which have given him tools that slow its progression. Perhaps, he wonders, the returned princes of the sun and the rumoured dead princes may be able to aid him with the next step?

In the meantime, the Necrophore King has thousands of years of experience with the necromantic arts. He cannot attain its true depths, but he has breadth on his side. He has dabbled in necrosurgery - viewing it inferior to demon-breeding - though before he gave up his hobby he wrote several great tomes on the reanimation of demon flesh that have never yet made their way to Creation. After the Contagion he purchased countless ghosts from the Underworld when they were glutted with cheap slaves, and a few of those Shogunate ghosts have not yet been rendered down for one experiment or another. Some strange magics have been devised which use the bulk of Oramus as a focus for workings with the dread numerology of the Labyrinth, but so far Fossyi has not been able to divine an escape from Hell through impossibility himself.

The laws of Hell forbid much of what he does, but he considers himself beyond them. Orabilis does not agree, which is one of the reasons that Fossyi hides himself in the wastes around Oramus and slays the spies that come to watch on him. The Priests of Cecelyne dog his agents and slay them whenever they find them. He himself escapes censure because he is Unquestionable, but his servants are not so lucky.

Such a convention might be broken if his darkest secret were discovered. He has set up a school of necromancy within Hell, and teaches first circles - mostly to spit in Orabilis' eyes. His school is mostly notable for the aspects of that dread art it is ignorant of - deprived of access to the Underworld, most of the fruitful aspects of research are cut off leaving it largely focussed on the manipulation of slave-ghosts and matters of the soul and highly theoretical. When the Necrophore King casts necromancy his affliction worsens, thus he must carefully limit his exposure to necrotic essence and seek to be as efficient as possible with his workings - and his knowledge there might be valuable for one who wishes to advance the art.

Fossyi wriggles loose from Hell upon the death of one beloved by a nation who dies from slow wasting over many years. Such a release lasts only until their burial ceremonies are complete, and he solemnly aids in the proceedings. Otherwise, he can escape whenever the remains of an extinct species are dug up during the hour past midnight, though he is forced to disguise himself as a one-eyed mortal to avoid the eyes of heaven. Then he will challenge the finder to a game of chance, wagering obsidian coins for ownership of the newfound relic. Regardless of the outcome, he will attempt to bet more and more, until the stakes include the soul of the finder. Once the hour ends, however, Fossyi departs - dragging everything he won back to Hell with him.

Notes and Abilities: Sorcerers call upon Fossyi for his knowledge of extinct races and his mastery of the soul. He cannot bring a deceased spirit back to life, but he can flense a sacrifice of their memories of the dead and create a golem which serves as a testament to those recollections, acting as the recollections without creativity or the spark of true life. The desperate and bereaved might be willing to accept such an imitation as their lost love.

He can also extract the living souls from a host and store them within a jar - though not reattach them. The Black Nadir Concordat made use of such trapped living souls as tools in their dark delvings. Much to his annoyance, the souls of the Exalted merely scorch his hands and do not respond to his touch.

When bound, Fossyi will seldom willingly use his necromancy unless forced, because he fears the worsening of his affliction from too-casual use of necrotic essence. Should the sorcerer also be a necromancer, however, he is an excellent source of Iron Circle spells and has studied some Labyrinth Circle workings. He has found that he can dispel necromancy as if it was sorcery using his natural Ophidian essence, however, and thus a summoner may make use of him to break workings of a hostile necromancer - reaching even the Void Circle, though Fossyi will suffer tremendously from the backlash.
Quite cool, but games of chance over fiddling? I do like him as a non-antagonistic character; sure he's got all the standard evil mad scientist tropes but it's not in a malevolent or power hungry way.
... you seem to be mixing up cause and effect here. Least gods are generated automatically for things - we know this from how other gods work, if a new river shows up it gets a god assigned to it; it's not impossible for it to form in the first place just because it has no god saying there's a river there. You don't need to generate the least god first in order to make the thing. What you're proposing would make it impossible to invent anything new, or even slightly novel without least god husbandry. To which I respond "so, how about those 'wheel' things; did the genius minds of the Exalted have to be involved in those? Have mortals never made any advances ever, on their own?"

Dude, this is pretty evidently not the case. Mortals can invent things. A least god of a crossbow will just enforce already existent rules. They're a metaphor for consistent laws of physics with an animistic bent. They'll maintain things like "wood flexes", "string doesn't spontaneously catch fire", "metal does not turn blue and become a liquid under tension". Those are, stunningly, the exact same rules that a bow uses. Thus, a crossbow works fine.
God husbandry would be a cool game though
 
I like how 3e handled these issues. Little gods are just minor gods of trees or whatever, and every little blade of grass doesn't have a living spirit you can manipulate in it. And crossbows are spread around the setting, favored by the North as their ranged weapon of choice, but available pretty much anywhere you can afford one.
 
(The rarity of bows came up as part of the campaign a few times, and nobody among the players/GM had as big a reaction as seems common here. Everyone just bundled it with all the other ways in which the setting differs from ours. Just like in Star Wars, nobody seemed to invent paper even where it would be more useful than electronic sheets, nearly nobody uses pure kinetic projectile weapons despite them being good against shields etc. etc. But I do remember that you I seem to be more accepting of The Road Not Taken than you.)
Bluntly, comparing Star Wars to Exalted in this way is wrong. They are sharply different kinds of stories. Star Wars is very much a drama-first kind of story; one of its central elements is the Force, a nebulous thing controlled by feelings, relationships, and destiny. Darth Vader didn't pull out some scanner to detect Obi Wan on the Death Star, he supernaturally sensed the presence of a powerful rival and former friend.

By contrast, Exalted is the kind of setting which sweats the details. The game prides itself on this, trumpets it as one of the major selling points that sets it apart from, say, D&D.

It's why one of the major contributions that Grabowski brought to the creation of the setting was his background knowledge not as an author or a game designer, but an economist. You can see this in how the game has always taken the time to talk about the different financial systems in use throughout the world.

It's why most of the diseases listed in the corebooks are things like cholera and dysentry instead of magical nonsense illnesses that turn your blood into snakes.

It's why when Stephen Lea Sheppard, a long-time and current writer for Exalted, talked about the Four Layers of Exalted, the very first thing he brought up was history, anthropology, politics, and economics. Books like "Seeing Like A State, Debt: The First 5,000 Years, 1491, and a lot of National Geographic and history and military theory textbooks". Textbooks, not novels.

It's why if you dig into the history of quotes by the writers and developers, one of the things that keeps turning up is an appreciation for the consistency and real-world mapping of the setting. How, despite the fact that Creation is a flat world nailed to a sea of pure chaos by elemental poles where the sun is a giant burning dirigible sailed across the sky by a god, it feels like a believable, internally consistent world where people not much different to us live, and worry about the kinds of things we would worry about in their shoes.

And it's why, yes, people argue that crossbows not being widespread throughout the 2e setting is dumb, on the basis that it doesn't map to the real world and there is no justification given or implied by the text. Because Exalted generally tries very hard and prides itself on trying very hard to do these things.

You've tried to justify this (to us or yourself, I care not which) on the basis that Creation is not our world so anything goes, when one of the greatest and most laudable things about Exalted's writing is that from the beginning it has tried to reject that very principle.
Historically, there were plenty of people who could have, and probably should have, used crossbows, but didn't. Like the Romans.
Not really. Roman military doctrine prized a professional army primarily composed of well-trained, well-equipped heavy infantry. Rome used archers and cavalry and skirmishers, but the fundamental building block of their armies was the Legionnaire. They didn't use crossbows en masse because they didn't have the military need to quickly train and equip large armies of militia.

Despite all that, there is still evidence of Rome using crossbows in a limited fashion.
 
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I don't know anything about crossbows specifically, but real-life history is chaotic and weird enough that I have no problem with crossbows just randomly not being invented/popularized. Stuff happens. Or doesn't.

Anyway, @sebsmith , you mentioned you had some more Craft comments that were cut from your earlier post for time. I'm eager to hear them.
 
Entirely ignoring the crossbow-specific values of the ongoing argument, it is worth noting that the entire reason the Crossbow Issue became one in the first place, way back before even I played the game, is because the setting and even specific place where this happens refutes its underlying premise with a completely contradictory plot hook: Vanileth, Shogun of Artificial Flight.

Since the fall of the First Age air-fleets the god has tucked himself away from the world, secluding himself within his private sanctum in the North surrounded by swirling winds and tall mountains, waiting for someone to rediscover his domain and fly a manufactured craft to come see him and prove that the broken world is capable of rebuilding its former greatness. Vanileth has no control over the uses and re/discovery of artificial flight methods, though he is worldly in all of them and has the potential by his influence to cause a dramatic sea-change in the way travel and warfare occurs in the setting, and is in fact banking on that very point.

Meanwhile, airships are neither few nor far between in the setting, with newer crude gliders being built and old warships recovered since that time. Hell, even Lookshy has and regularly maintains them. The Five Metal Shrike plagues the South like an apocalyptic demon. But the awareness of Vanileth and his influence to help enhance and spread the knowledge of the technology is known by only a few, and there are many factions competing to be the first to engineer a vehicle capable of withstanding the arduous trip to find him, foremost among them being the Haslanti League, fresh off the manufacture of the supposedly lost crossbow art.

What is the difference between these two plot/setting contrivances, centered on the same culture and resonating in the same ways? One is actually well-written, and understands the scope of the event it is trying to approach, rather than limit the setting by its inclusion.
 
I like how 3e handled these issues. Little gods are just minor gods of trees or whatever, and every little blade of grass doesn't have a living spirit you can manipulate in it. And crossbows are spread around the setting, favored by the North as their ranged weapon of choice, but available pretty much anywhere you can afford one.
I don't, because it departs from the settings animistic roots. It may sound dumb to you, but many cultures believe, or in most cases believed, that everything had a spirit.
 
I don't, because it departs from the settings animistic roots. It may sound dumb to you, but many cultures believe, or in most cases believed, that everything had a spirit.
That's why I originally liked it. But the community doesn't really seem capable of not immediately trying to exploit that fact, mechanically. Which pisses me off, because then it spreads into this whole thing with tons of amazing artifacts working by exploiting least gods, or making something being about exploiting least gods, or talking to least gods and changing them and Jesus Christ can we just not have an interesting little detail immediately be metagamed to hell and back
 
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That's why I originally liked it. But the community doesn't really seem capable of not immediately trying to exploit that fact, mechanically. Which pisses me off, because then it spreads into this whole thing with tons of amazing artifacts working by exploiting least gods, or making something being about exploiting least gods, or talking to least gods and changing them and Jesus Christ can we not have an interesting little detail not immediately be metagamed to hell and back
No, because the concept of Animist Spiritualism is not a "glaze" you apply over a supernatural setting and expect it to go mostly unmentioned or unnoticed, and the places where the writers overlook this nuance actively make the game lesser by the omission. It is a fundamental pillar in the organization of Creation's supernatural world as contingent to the setting as the existence of a Celestial Bureaucracy or an Underworld.
 
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