Anyway, @sebsmith , you mentioned you had some more Craft comments that were cut from your earlier post for time. I'm eager to hear them.
Sorry, I haven't had enough time to sit down and both answer your comments and give some more final in detail thoughts. Don't let me forget.

The really short comment I can give at this time is 'this is probably the craft revision my party's crafter complained didn't give enough resource management.' I understand why the current micromanagement system needs to burn – especially since it can becomes essentially meaningless before essence two on a craft supernal character – but I also understand why a player wants something a little fiddly.
 
How is acting like a crossbow different from acting like a bow? Hint: it's not in the bow part. It's in the fact that it's sideways with a block preventing the string from snapping back, essentially the same as a finger holding it back simply made out of a stronger material and anchored to something, thus allowing a stronger bow.

Why not? A crossbow is a normal bow turned on its side and hammered to a couple pieces of wood, at its most basic. All the Least God has to do is the exact same thing it does as a bow. And given that the least gods of swords are asleep most of the time, one draws the conclusion that so will that of bows. The least god will likely not notice the difference, and will behave in the exact same way which, funnily enough, is exactly what we want it to do.
Ah, but that's a very Newtonian explanation of what happens and why, not an animistic one.
Exalted is a world where whether the spirit of the sword is loyal to you is a physical statement that can affect other parts of reality, and where a gun shoots bullets because it's a mini-shrine with mini-gods and mini-prayers propelling said bullets, and a blacksmith is a person who knows how to deal with petty fire-spirits (because otherwise he'd get burned at his forge all the time).

Bluntly, comparing Star Wars to Exalted in this way is wrong. They are sharply different kinds of stories. Star Wars is very much a drama-first kind of story; one of its central elements is the Force, a nebulous thing controlled by feelings, relationships, and destiny. Darth Vader didn't pull out some scanner to detect Obi Wan on the Death Star, he supernaturally sensed the presence of a powerful rival and former friend.

By contrast, Exalted is the kind of setting which sweats the details. The game prides itself on this, trumpets it as one of the major selling points that sets it apart from, say, D&D.

It's why one of the major contributions that Grabowski brought to the creation of the setting was his background knowledge not as an author or a game designer, but an economist. You can see this in how the game has always taken the time to talk about the different financial systems in use throughout the world.

It's why most of the diseases listed in the corebooks are things like cholera and dysentry instead of magical nonsense illnesses that turn your blood into snakes.

It's why when Stephen Lea Sheppard, a long-time and current writer for Exalted, talked about the Four Layers of Exalted, the very first thing he brought up was history, anthropology, politics, and economics. Books like "Seeing Like A State, Debt: The First 5,000 Years, 1491, and a lot of National Geographic and history and military theory textbooks". Textbooks, not novels.

It's why if you dig into the history of quotes by the writers and developers, one of the things that keeps turning up is an appreciation for the consistency and real-world mapping of the setting. How, despite the fact that Creation is a flat world nailed to a sea of pure chaos by elemental poles where the sun is a giant burning dirigible sailed across the sky by a god, it feels like a believable, internally consistent world where people not much different to us live, and worry about the kinds of things we would worry about in their shoes.

And it's why, yes, people argue that crossbows not being widespread throughout the 2e setting is dumb, on the basis that it doesn't map to the real world and there is no justification given or implied by the text. Because Exalted generally tries very hard and prides itself on trying very hard to do these things.

You've tried to justify this (to us or yourself, I care not which) on the basis that Creation is not our world so anything goes, when one of the greatest and most laudable things about Exalted's writing is that from the beginning it has tried to reject that very principle.
Not really. Roman military doctrine prized a professional military primarily composed of well-trained, well-equipped heavy infantry. Rome used archers and cavalry and skirmishers, but the fundamental building block of their armies was the Legionnaire. They didn't use crossbows en masse because they didn't have the military need to quickly train and equip large armies of militia.

Despite all that, there is still evidence of Rome using crossbows in a limited fashion.
That seems to be a major difference in the impression Exalted made on you/Aleph/ES/etc. and the impression it made on the Exalted-playing people I've encountered in other places (mostly my gaming group and another forum). As in, I've largely found people inclined to see the game line as being a Rule-Of-Cool-first. On a more remote note, back when I started looking into the game line, the TVTropes pages also seemed to have a strong focus on RuleOfCool too (but today's article seems different from the way it looked back then, so I can't vouch for it).

On a more personal note/opinion (i.e. things I can say for myself but not necessary the others), here's why I think Exalted as a game line is Drama-first:
  • The whole system is suffused with Stunts - a phenomenon that allows dramatic editing and is largely fuelled by how cool it is.
  • The book seems to have a fondness for throwing around 'drama', 'dramatic' and (paraphrased) things like 'if this would be more dramatic, go for it!'.
  • Despite a nominal presence of an article about currencies and stuff, details like that tend to be swept under the carpet of broad strokes and abstractions as far as the actually supported mode of play works. It doesn't have rules for jobs with prerequisites, incomes dependent on the former, risks and the like. It doesn't have rules about raising crops and what you can get from them (whether in the form of income, food to feed an army, resources to be used in your crafting cave cathedral). It doesn't have rules for developing a city's infrastructure and its effect on the quality of life of its citizens (and being an honest vs. a corrupt ruler and the tradeoffs involved in it). It doesn't have meaningful rules for distinguishing different legal/society/government systems in the slightest. The equipment's parameters are rather vague, with even weights not known even in the approximate ballpark (so even 'how much food can we keep on our backs given our strength' needs to be either handwaved or vaguely houseruled based on a misapplication of Feats of Strength). This places Exalted on a more drama-first side of the spectrum as far as game systems go.

It's actually fascinating that two groups of people (of not clearly measured number) received such differing impressions from reading the same books.
 
That seems to be a major difference in the impression Exalted made on you/Aleph/ES/etc. and the impression it made on the Exalted-playing people I've encountered in other places (mostly my gaming group and another forum). As in, I've largely found people inclined to see the game line as being a Rule-Of-Cool-first. On a more remote note, back when I started looking into the game line, the TVTropes pages also seemed to have a strong focus on RuleOfCool too (but today's article seems different from the way it looked back then, so I can't vouch for it).

On a more personal note/opinion (i.e. things I can say for myself but not necessary the others), here's why I think Exalted as a game line is Drama-first:
  • The whole system is suffused with Stunts - a phenomenon that allows dramatic editing and is largely fuelled by how cool it is.
  • The book seems to have a fondness for throwing around 'drama', 'dramatic' and (paraphrased) things like 'if this would be more dramatic, go for it!'.
  • Despite a nominal presence of an article about currencies and stuff, details like that tend to be swept under the carpet of broad strokes and abstractions as far as the actually supported mode of play works. It doesn't have rules for jobs with prerequisites, incomes dependent on the former, risks and the like. It doesn't have rules about raising crops and what you can get from them (whether in the form of income, food to feed an army, resources to be used in your crafting cave cathedral). It doesn't have rules for developing a city's infrastructure and its effect on the quality of life of its citizens (and being an honest vs. a corrupt ruler and the tradeoffs involved in it). It doesn't have meaningful rules for distinguishing different legal/society/government systems in the slightest. The equipment's parameters are rather vague, with even weights not known even in the approximate ballpark (so even 'how much food can we keep on our backs given our strength' needs to be either handwaved or vaguely houseruled based on a misapplication of Feats of Strength). This places Exalted on a more drama-first side of the spectrum as far as game systems go.
Yes, that's due to another aspect of what makes Exalted cool, and which also gets talked about; that it has and promotes a deliberate juxtaposition between a very grounded, gritty world, and the exploits of the players and the Exalted in general as high-action dramatic heroes. You can see this in Stephen's talk about the Four Layers, how the Exalted are a layer in themselves on top of the first two, and how Holden once told him the main thing that drew him to Exalted "is that a) it has the best fantasy setting in RPGs, but then b) on top of that it gives you completely broken overpowered h4x shounen anime protagonists to rampage around in it."

It's why I talked about how Creation feels like a believable, internally consistent world where people not much different to us live, and worry about the kinds of things we would worry about in their shoes, but it is a flat world nailed to a sea of pure chaos by elemental poles where the sun is a giant burning dirigible sailed across the sky by a god. It's why in the first article I linked to, Shamus Young made a point of explaining that he chose the term details-first, not details-only.
Shamus Young said:
This doesn't mean that a details-first story can't have any drama at all, of course. It's details "first", not details "only". After all, without drama, what's the point? This is supposed to be entertainment. It just means the writer has to make sure that the drama follows the established rules of the universe. The foundation of details rewards people who examine the story and suggest all those places hidden just off-stage. In their own way, details enhance drama by constraining the writer and limiting their ability to resolve seemingly intractable problems with a deus ex machina.
This is one of, perhaps the, best and most intelligent things about Exalted, that so much of its high-drama gameplay is derived from a very details-conscious setting. Things like the heroic power of stunts exist, and they are acknowledged in-universe as contrasts with most of the setting. You might think of it as a drama-first game told in a details-first setting, neither aspect disposable, each fuelling and enhancing the other. You play epic heroes duelling across rooftops with weapons out of legend, but these things are given meaning and substance by the contrast with the rest of the world, much more restrained by realism and human limitations.

It's why the 2e corebook deliberately includes rules for things like bleeding and mundane diseases that most player characters will either never suffer from or trivially ignore. It gives players a sense that they aren't just nebulously superhuman and the world doesn't run on comic book physics; it's a grounded, realistic world where being shot in the arm with an arrow is a life-threatening injury due to risks like blood loss, shock and infection... But the Exalted can ignore that, and because the game paints such a realistic world, the ability of the Exalted to ignore these things makes a statement about their nature and power.
 
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Could you elaborate? I noticed ES seems to have a grudge against them, but I don't know the history of any scandals in which TVT attacked SV or anything like that.
The amount of reductionism necessary to codify any piece of media (let alone Every piece) down into a series of broadly-applicable checkboxes for easy sorting and organization does both a disservice to the media in question and actively degrades the understanding of it by creating a false-equivalence between it and literally every other possible thing it could share superficial traits with, instead of trying to view the piece as a product of its context, time-frame and methods required to make it happen.
 
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Could you elaborate? I noticed ES seems to have a grudge against them, but I don't know the history of any scandals in which TVT attacked SV or anything like that.

I don't have a grudge against it. I consider it very lazy, especially when used in place of thinking for yourself. Moreover, the superfluous capitalisation is a clear indication that someone is relying on it in place of producing a coherent argument on their own. It's also horribly reductionist and teaches absolutely terrible patterns of writing.
 
Ah, but that's a very Newtonian explanation of what happens and why, not an animistic one.
Exalted is a world where whether the spirit of the sword is loyal to you is a physical statement that can affect other parts of reality, and where a gun shoots bullets because it's a mini-shrine with mini-gods and mini-prayers propelling said bullets, and a blacksmith is a person who knows how to deal with petty fire-spirits (because otherwise he'd get burned at his forge all the time).
No: it's a surface level explanation. This is what Mortals in Creation would see. The thing is, the animism of Creation broadly works this way: a bent item will attempt to straighten, and something can be held in place by another object. You can say that this doesn't work, but the amount of logic and world-building to make this result in a coherent creation is immense. Or you can abandon that, but that leads to the same issue that others are bringing up.
 
Enh. TVTropes is a useful tool, and until someone actually invents a field of true memetics and writes a textbook it's what we've got. I definitely agree that relying on it is a mistake, but it's a powerful way to inform how you see stories and create a foundation to diverge from. Just don't... well, use it to justify things.

It's most useful as a way to get an outside view on your own work - it lets you, to some extent, see what other people will see when they see what you've written, rather than what you mean. Death of the Author applied to yourself.
 
That's why I originally liked it. But the community doesn't really seem capable of not immediately trying to exploit that fact, mechanically. Which pisses me off, because then it spreads into this whole thing with tons of amazing artifacts working by exploiting least gods, or making something being about exploiting least gods, or talking to least gods and changing them and Jesus Christ can we just not have an interesting little detail immediately be metagamed to hell and back
That means that the authors should make sure to make the fact that most Least Gods are asleep, non-sentient, and don't care about anything but their item explicit. What they did feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 
As in, I've largely found people inclined to see the game line as being a Rule-Of-Cool-first. On a more remote note, back when I started looking into the game line, the TVTropes pages also seemed to have a strong focus on RuleOfCool too (but today's article seems different from the way it looked back then, so I can't vouch for it).
In regards to that, look back at the rules, and now consider playing a mortal only game.
And then remember that if you get into a fight even if you win you very easily die of bloodloss or because you get gangrene/sepsis.
On the mortal side you are not playing Tiger and Dragon. You are playing Warhammer Fantasy.
 
That means that the authors should make sure to make the fact that most Least Gods are asleep, non-sentient, and don't care about anything but their item explicit. What they did feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
It's one of those sharp differences in preferences that are irreconcilable between those who hold them. Like...I think the game is genuinely better off without the baggage of that particular bit of fluff. I think it's existence is distracting and detrimental to the game. I don't want to have to deal with what it does for the game. I don't want it to exist, because to me, it has only and only ever had bad effects. To me, it's not cutting off the nose and spiting the face. It's excising a malignant tumor that has already spread too far.

This is, of course, no comfort to those who found it cool. I'm not really making an argument anymore, because it's just...there really isn't one. It's different people finding different things cool. And sometimes, what one finds cool does nothing but infuriate another.
 
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Sorry, I haven't had enough time to sit down and both answer your comments and give some more final in detail thoughts. Don't let me forget.

The really short comment I can give at this time is 'this is probably the craft revision my party's crafter complained didn't give enough resource management.' I understand why the current micromanagement system needs to burn – especially since it can becomes essentially meaningless before essence two on a craft supernal character – but I also understand why a player wants something a little fiddly.

Don't worry, I won't.

And I get that. Artifacts seem to be the trickiest part of Craft, since there are so many mutually exclusive ideas about how making them should work. Yet another reason that Craft shouldn't focus on them too much, I guess.
 
It's one of those sharp differences in preferences that are irreconcilable between those who hold them. Like...I think the game is genuinely better off without the baggage of that particular bit of fluff. I think it's existence is distracting and detrimental to the game. I don't want to have to deal with what it does for the game. I don't want it to exist, because to me, it has only and ever had bad effects. To me, it's not cutting off the nose and spiting the face. It's excising a malignant tumor that has already spread too far.
Thing is, your example is not only biased but more of an indictment against the fandom than the canon, because the game proper has historically outlined the scope of Exalted's animist traits absolutely nowhere beyond brief nods towards the "pebble god submits memo to rock god, who answers to the god of boulders" arrangement of the Terrestrial sphere in the Celestial Bureaucracy, and a note secreted away in the Warstrider section of a gear book about how one could enhance and empower artifacts during construction through a single-chance, expensive, extremely rare and involved process of uplifting a little god into a fully animate and intelligent spirit helper.

Making the game less interesting, feature-rich and nuanced because the players aren't playing it properly is the strongest polemic held against the current Devs and writing quality of Ex3 for this very exact reason.
 
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Thing is, your example is not only biased but more of an indictment against the fandom than the canon, because the game proper has historically outlined the scope of Exalted's animist traits absolutely nowhere beyond brief nods towards the "pebble god submits memo to rock god, who answers to the god of boulders" arrangement of the Terrestrial sphere in the Celestial Bureaucracy, and a note secreted away in the Warstrider section of a gear book about how one could enhance and empower artifacts during construction through a single-chance, expensive, extremely rare and involved process of uplifting a little god into a fully animate and intelligent spirit helper.

Making the game less interesting, feature-rich and nuanced because the players aren't playing it properly is the strongest polemic held against the current Devs and writing quality of Ex3 for this very exact reason.
I don't think it made the game less interesting and nuanced. I think it excised a minor detail with lots of problems and used the effort that might have fixed the problems and might not have into making newer, more interesting things about the setting. I also think the idea was toxic no matter how much effort went into fixing it. Hence why I'm glad it's gone. Sure, maybe I'm wrong and it could have been fixed. But I don't agree that the writers are negligent or bad for not bothering. 3e was always going to change a lot of stuff. Taking an ax to problematic 2e was always gonna be a thing.
 
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Here is a quick list of major fantasy RPGs which feature a traditionally Animist supernatural world to the depth that Exalted liked to contextualize itself as, representing part of a major element of its interaction between the mortal and spiritual realms:
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Hm, maybe there is a problem with that.
 
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Here is a quick list of major fantasy RPGs which feature a traditionally Animist supernatural world to the depth that Exalted like to contextualize itself as, representing part of a major element of its interaction between the mortal and spiritual realms:
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-
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Hm, maybe there is a problem with that.
I don't think it being unique is really that much of a reason to keep it. It's a reason, unique things are cool, and can make the setting stand out. But when the reaction in the target audience is the opposite of what you want, and spread like wildfire to the point where it intros new people with this as a big thing...is it really worth saving? Opinions differ depending on how much you liked it, and how much the problem people annoyed you. I found it mildly cool, and find people gushing over manipulating least gods deeply irritating, so my opinion is 'ax it, it's not helping anything, and is making stuff worse'. You find the concept cool and want it saved, and in contrast the annoying stuff is a lot less annoying, I would guess, since you are seeing 'it's a cool thing that some people don't use right' rather than what I see, which is 'everyone gushing over what was originally just a mildly cool background bit about the setting and giving it idiotic mechanical implications that it never should have had'. I only see it causing problems, you can see benefits. Whether it's worth saving really depends on your position between 'cool' and 'problematic'.
 
Here is a quick list of major fantasy RPGs which feature a traditionally Animist supernatural world to the depth that Exalted liked to contextualize itself as, representing part of a major element of its interaction between the mortal and spiritual realms:
-
-
-
-

Hm, maybe there is a problem with that.
Don't WtA, MtA, WH40K (arguably on the less traditional side), and to some extent Shadowrun count?
 
Here is a quick list of major fantasy RPGs which feature a traditionally Animist supernatural world to the depth that Exalted liked to contextualize itself as, representing part of a major element of its interaction between the mortal and spiritual realms:
-
-
-
-

Hm, maybe there is a problem with that.
what even is legend of the five rings
 
Don't WtA, MtA, WH40K (arguably on the less traditional side), and to some extent Shadowrun count?
Mage: the Ascension only is sometimes-animist. Depends on what characters are involved, due to the whole belief-makes-it-real thing.

Shadowrun really isn't animist. It has spirits and mana, sure, but those spirits are discrete entities from the Metaplanes; they aren't the spirits of particular objects. You can't talk to the spirit of 'that chair over there', it just has a sort of dead shadow-echo on the Astral Plane.
 
Mage: the Ascension only is sometimes-animist. Depends on what characters are involved, due to the whole belief-makes-it-real thing.

Shadowrun really isn't animist. It has spirits and mana, sure, but those spirits are discrete entities from the Metaplanes; they aren't the spirits of particular objects. You can't talk to the spirit of 'that chair over there', it just has a sort of dead shadow-echo on the Astral Plane.
If my ritual dagger won't cut because the unfriendly neighborhood werewolf scared its cutting-spirit, and I can use my Spirit magic to calm it down (and if I'm a techie who doesn't believe in spirits, my non-ritual scalpel still doesn't cut because its spirit is scared) I think that counts as animist.

As for Shadowrun, perhaps I'm under the wrong impression due to the way spirits are presented as opposed to how they work game-mechanically. I might be wrong on that one, as I'm not an SR expert to any degree.
 
*looks at ongoing argument*

Question:
Fuel Bolt Launcher. Plasma Tongue Repeater. Light implosion bow. Concussive Essence cannon.
Do they get magical material bonuses?
 
I don't think it being unique is really that much of a reason to keep it.
I find it surprising how you seem to be regarding this as something which 2e popularized and featured heavily, even though "Creation is an animist setting" was a continual mainstay of the 1e canon and tropes which Ex3 continually insists it is staunchly adhering to. Something which 1e, oddly enough, did Not have a majority of problems with despite having roughly the same amount of material devoted to it.

I have quite a bit of trouble imagining a situation where 2e by its very existence corrupted a fundamental tenet of the game setting to such a degree the only viable choice to make was removing it outright, while at the same time insisting this is actually upholding the One True Vision of what the game was originally intended to be after all.
 
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