He's a Dragon-Blooded instead of a Solar. Definitionally, he's a different class of entity. There's no need for implications here, it's outright explicit.

Remember that "Infernal Exalt" could simply be used as a classification descriptor like "Celestial Exalt".
You're reading past materials with assumptions formed from posterior material. Again, as presented in Blood & Salt, Dukantha is simply one of the Infernal Exalted. Given how that era of the material played fast and loose with some aspects of the setting we would later considered set in stone,* it's entirely conceivable that a Solar Essence was used as part of his Exaltation to make him more than a Dragon-Blooded. "He's definitionally a different class of entity" is a meaningless statement based on 2e setting material that wasn't formed at the time. "Infernal Exalt" as a classification descriptor covering several different categories of being did not exist at the time of his writing, unless you have material to that effect that I failed to see.

*see: summoning Kimbery into Creation.
 
You're reading past materials with assumptions formed from posterior material. Again, as presented in Blood & Salt, Dukantha is simply one of the Infernal Exalted. Given how that era of the material played fast and loose with some aspects of the setting we would later considered set in stone,* it's entirely conceivable that a Solar Essence was used as part of his Exaltation to make him more than a Dragon-Blooded. "He's definitionally a different class of entity" is a meaningless statement based on 2e setting material that wasn't formed at the time. "Infernal Exalt" as a classification descriptor covering several different categories of being did not exist at the time of his writing, unless you have material to that effect that I failed to see.

*see: summoning Kimbery into Creation.

This is pure speculation either way.

Yes, they could have made him with a Solar Exaltation, but this was not mentioned - why would we assume this was the case? The Yozis had fifty Solar Exaltations. Do you think they could have made better weapons with those materials compared to "the frame of a Dragon-Blooded"?

If they did in fact do that, and Dukantha is a full, legitimate Infernal Exalt, a hypothetical Solar-derived superior model would also be an Infernal Exalt, much like how Lunar and Solar Exalted are both Celestial Exalted.
 
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This is pure speculation. Yes, they could have made him with a Solar Exaltation, but this was not mentioned - why would we assume this was the case? The Yozis had fifty Solar Exaltations. Do you think they could have made better weapons with those materials compared to "the frame of a Dragon-Blooded"?

If they did in fact do that, and Dukantha is a full, legitimate Infernal Exalt, a hypothetical Solar-derived superior model would also be an Infernal Exalt, much like how Lunar and Solar Exalted are both Celestial Exalted.
What you're not getting is that you are speculating just as much as I am. Your ideas about what a "full, legitimate Infernal Exalt" would be are informed by material post-dating the first actually-stated Infernal character in the game. You're just throwing around "coulds" and "woulds" which is perfectly fine but also completely beside the point - the point being that 1e had a stated Infernal Exalt, described him as an Infernal Exalt, and made no implications that he was categorically different from "real Infernals." Everything you choose to read into that is on you, dude.
 
What you're not getting is that you are speculating just as much as I am. Your ideas about what a "full, legitimate Infernal Exalt" would be are informed by material post-dating the first actually-stated Infernal character in the game. You're just throwing around "coulds" and "woulds" which is perfectly fine but also completely beside the point - the point being that 1e had a stated Infernal Exalt, described him as an Infernal Exalt, and made no implications that he was categorically different from "real Infernals." Everything you choose to read into that is on you, dude.

He was made from a Dragon-Blooded, dude. That is the implication that he was categorically different from something made from a Solar. You have differing inputs, why would you expect identical outputs?
 
I think the point being made is that you are privileging 2E's exposition on the term over 1E's*. It's possible that they had an entirely different idea of what Infernal Exalts would be, in terms of metaphysics, power level, etc. Or it's possible that they weren't quite sure and just threw something together.

*not that there's anything wrong with this, IMO
 
I think the point being made is that you are privileging 2E's exposition on the term over 1E's*. It's possible that they had an entirely different idea of what Infernal Exalts would be, in terms of metaphysics, power level, etc. Or it's possible that they weren't quite sure and just threw something together.

*not that there's anything wrong with this, IMO

No, that only holds if you take Omicron's speculation as truth for no apparent reason. There is no detailed 1E exposition on the term, there is one NPC with a title. How this fits into any larger conception of Infernal Exalted or the 50 Solar Exaltations taken by the Yozi is a complete unknown.

It is entirely reasonable to state that there is no 1E Infernal Exalted book, because there wasn't. It is equally reasonable to state that asserting that Dukantha is exactly the same as whatever the Yozi were going to do with those 50 Solar Exaltations is reaching.
 
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As I just said, there was no indication that Dukantha was a different "class of entity" as the fifty Green Sun Princes. As introduced in Blood & Salt, he was an "Infernal Exalt, Prince of Hell" with no implication that he was part of a different category alltogether from the "real" Infernal.
Well the Players guide had rules for Akuma, and made it clear that Dukantha was one, and not one of the 50 Solar Essences.
 
Actually, 1) no, in Exalted, if you can establish a sufficiently isolated location you can make that prediction that well. Given that Creation is afloat in a giant sea of chaos which has a size and many other traits of basically 'what the fuck is this answer,' making a sufficiently isolated location is hard.
2) No predictive system has ever managed to properly compensate for essence use in general, although mortals especially have only rarely broken out of a prediction.
3) Due to a weird matter of metaphysical heritage humanity descends from Raksha.
Weren't you the one who said that without souls, a sufficiently fine calculator is all it takes for the ability to make precise predictions, unless the predicted system includes soul(s)?

'This setting is animist' and 'all things have an essential nature' are not contradicting statements.
'Is animist' describes the mechanisms by which phenomena work. If animism 'shows up' at, say, the cellular scale, that means that molecular-scale phenomena don't even behave like they do in our world. If animism 'shows up' at a larger scale (e.g. there is a spirit of a mountain, as is proper for Exalted), then it means that even smaller-than-mountain phenomena don't behave like they do in our world.
As far as I currently understand, Exalted is animist on many levels, up to and including mountain-scale.

Look at it this way. Something is made and presented (1E). This has its ups and downs, but, overall, it works. I might bitch about triremes or the omnipresent Guild (both casualties of the map expansion), but these aren't dealbreakers, I can simply modify those in-play when I run because changing these things to make sense does not touch any load-bearing pillars.

A new boss takes over and starts cranking out retreads of the original thing, except badly done: little to no cool new stuff, they manage to leave out actual cool stuff from the original set, the rules flat don't work (Dragon-Blooded, Sidereals, Monk, Fair Folk...) and what new stuff does exist vacillates between boring and terribly unfitting, which you can identify because you already have all of the fluff they're busy reprinting and amending (badly).

So yes, 1E and 2E are basically the same setting, in that 2E's setting is largely the same as 1E's setting, plus dumbshit bits and bad mechanics. This is not mutually exclusive with rejecting most of 2E's books for being shit. You simply, in that case, revert to 1E's fluff - minus the dumbshit bits. It's entirely reasonable to go "I like Exalted" and "Exalted 2 is shit".
I think what you just described sounds closer to "I like a small subset of Exalted, which mostly happens to be a (non-identified size) subset of Exalted 1e". The latter part of the set's definition is important: it seems like while people tend to blame things they dislike on 2e, there's a long list of disliked things dating back to 1e.
I'm extra puzzled (despite previously receiving a reply on the topic from Aleph) about Kerisgame and its participants (their stance against 2e), because judging by your exchange with Omicron, Infernals in Kerisgame are not a 1e 'invention', they're a moderate rework of the Infernals found in 2e/MoEP:Infernals/Broken Crane/Ink Monkeys/etc. (with a heavy rework of game mechanics, I presume).
Both of these look like counterintuitive, contradictory, cherrypicky stances. Kinda like buying a pizza for the cheese and then being unhappy about everything else included in the recipe, then proceeding to dissect the pizza (removing and possibly also adding ingredients) and reheat in in the microwave over, yet never just buying cheese and cooking it with whatever one likes. At least that's how it looks to me as someone who jumped into the setting first and the community holding such a stance second.
 
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Weren't you the one who said that without souls, a sufficiently fine calculator is all it takes for the ability to make precise predictions, unless the predicted system includes soul(s)?


'Is animist' describes the mechanisms by which phenomena work. If animism 'shows up' at, say, the cellular scale, that means that molecular-scale phenomena don't even behave like they do in our world. If animism 'shows up' at a larger scale (e.g. there is a spirit of a mountain, as is proper for Exalted), then it means that even smaller-than-mountain phenomena don't behave like they do in our world.
As far as I currently understand, Exalted is animist on many levels, up to and including mountain-scale.


I think what you just described sounds closer to "I like a small subset of Exalted, which mostly happens to be a (non-identified size) subset of Exalted 1e". The latter part of the set's definition is important: it seems like while people tend to blame things they dislike on 2e, there's a long list of disliked things dating back to 1e.
I'm extra puzzled (despite previously receiving a reply on the topic from Aleph) about Kerisgame and its participants (their stance against 2e), because judging by your exchange with Omicron, Infernals in Kerisgame are not a 1e 'invention', they're a moderate rework of the Infernals found in 2e/MoEP:Infernals/Broken Crane/Ink Monkeys/etc. (with a heavy rework of game mechanics, I presume).
Both of these look like counterintuitive, contradictory, cherrypicky stances. Kinda like buying a pizza for the cheese and then being unhappy about everything else included in the recipe, then proceeding to dissect the pizza (removing and adding ingredients) and reheat in in the microwave over, yet never just buying cheese and cooking it with whatever one likes. At least that's how it looks to me as someone who jumped into the setting first and the community holding such a stance second.
I think what you are missing in regards to 1e versus 2e is the scale as the vast majority of 1e stuff is usually accepted by most people without problems and without running into to many thematic clashes. Second Editions genuine elements, that are not exploration of things already mentioned in 1e are both rare prior to Glories/Infernals and B usually a mess thanks to editing controll.
And so it is easier to go with interesting thematic that they open up, in case of Infernals the Transhuman idea added to the political framework as presented in Games of Divinity, and then exploring what happens if one adds logic or consequences isntead of a bad case of not thinking it throught to it.
 
(their stance against 2e)
Framing it as 'against 2e' or 'for 1e' or what have you is pointlessly reductionist, and is what is causing most of your problems. There are things in 1e that are generally viewed as better than their 2e variants. There are things in 2e that are taken as implicit canon and unquestioned. There are things in both editions that are viewed as cool by some people and dumb as shit by others. There is no simple, cut and dried answer, so please, stop complaining when you fail to find one. It's not there. Accept that and drop it.
 
I think what you just described sounds closer to "I like a small subset of Exalted, which mostly happens to be a (non-identified size) subset of Exalted 1e". The latter part of the set's definition is important: it seems like while people tend to blame things they dislike on 2e, there's a long list of disliked things dating back to 1e.
I'm extra puzzled (despite previously receiving a reply on the topic from Aleph) about Kerisgame and its participants (their stance against 2e), because judging by your exchange with Omicron, Infernals in Kerisgame are not a 1e 'invention', they're a moderate rework of the Infernals found in 2e/MoEP:Infernals/Broken Crane/Ink Monkeys/etc. (with a heavy rework of game mechanics, I presume).
Both of these look like counterintuitive, contradictory, cherrypicky stances. Kinda like buying a pizza for the cheese and then being unhappy about everything else included in the recipe, then proceeding to dissect the pizza (removing and possibly also adding ingredients) and reheat in in the microwave over, yet never just buying cheese and cooking it with whatever one likes. At least that's how it looks to me as someone who jumped into the setting first and the community holding such a stance second.

You are remarkably good at missing the point. Whatever, I'll try again, with smaller words and simple analogies.

Let's say we have a recipe for pizza. There's a bunch of toppings on the pizza in a particular combination that's reasonably tasty: cheese, tomato sauce, pizza base, whatever. You like going to the pizza joint and getting this particular type of pizza because hey, it's tasty. Maybe the chef could swap the type of mushrooms out or go easy on the anchovies or something, it's not perfect, but it's alright. Certainly edible.

Then let's replace our chef with an idiot, who proceeds to use, largely speaking, the same recipe of pizza, except he adds on bizarre shit like pineapples, wasabi and kimchi, fucks up the oven timing so the cheese doesn't melt properly and changes the recipe for the pizza dough so the crust tastes like cardboard. He did add better mushrooms, though.

At this point, you can say that the pizza produced by Chef B is mostly shit, even though there is a large overlap between the ingredients list of the original pizza and the new management's pizza. You can still say that the basic pizza recipe, when executed correctly, is good, while hating the pizza produced by Chef B... even if you think nicking the mushrooms when reverting to Chef A's execution (or hiring a new chef C...) is a rather good idea.

Is this dumbed down enough? Do I need to go even simpler?
 
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You are remarkably good at missing the point. Whatever, I'll try again, with smaller words and simple analogies.

Let's say we have a recipe for pizza. There's a bunch of toppings on the pizza in a particular combination that's reasonably tasty: cheese, tomato sauce, pizza base, whatever. You like going to the pizza joint and getting this particular type of pizza because hey, it's tasty. Maybe the chef could swap the type of mushrooms out or go easy on the anchovies or something, it's not perfect, but it's fine.

Then let's replace our chef with an idiot, who proceeds to use, largely speaking, the same recipe of pizza, except he adds on bizarre shit like pineapples and kimchi, fucks up the oven timing so the cheese doesn't melt properly and changes the recipe for the pizza dough so the crust tastes like cardboard. He did add better mushrooms, though.

At this point, you can say that the pizza produced by Chef B is mostly shit, even though there is a large overlap between the ingredients list of the original pizza and the new management's pizza. You can still say that the basic pizza recipe, when executed correctly, is good, while hating the pizza produced by Chef B... even if you think nicking the mushrooms when reverting to Chef A's execution (or hiring a new chef C...) is a rather good idea.

Is this dumbed down enough? Do I need to go even simpler?
Fine, I'll rephrase my puzzlement on the same level of words and analogies as this post of yours. (Just in case: I'm comparing pizzas to fluff. Crunch is a totally separate topic, and I don't see Exalted crunch as defensible other than through appeals to fluff.)

Solutions to the problem that I would expect people to perform:
  • Keep ordering/eating the Recipe A pizza. (After all, the Chief A is fired, but they still have an infinite amount of his pizzas available.)
  • Find a different joint that cooks a different food (pizza or not) that largely contains the 'approved' ingredients, and perhaps also find some new ingredients you like in the process.
  • Help the joing with making Recipe C with their Chief Committee C. (That is, 3e, which is AFAIK not made by the sorts of people who wrote the Infamous Chapters and the like, but rather by the people who tried to fix stuff but were restricted by Chambers. Maybe I misunderstood that part.)
  • Go talk to the joint's management and offer to become their new cook with a better recipe (inspired by recipes A and B). (E.g. when DouglasCole was unhappy with the way GURPS Basic/Martial Arts handles grappling rules, he went and wrote GURPS Technical Grappling; now his book enjoys a reasonable following/sales and DouglasCole became a respected if somewhat crunch-heavy author writing for SJG.)
  • Buy cheese, mushrooms etc., and make a home-baked pizza (or not a pizza) for oneself and friends. (I.e. taking the good themes, and building something fresh, without the need to dance around the legacy code or sort through the fruits some of which come from a poisonous tree. Examples of taking similar themes [e.g. the theme of transhumanist science fiction] and building something fresh on them would be Transhuman Space vs. Eclipse Phase vs. Nova Praxis.)

Solution/situation that I see upon coming here:
  • People buying Pizza A and Pizza B, taking their scissors, needles and threads, dissecting and reassembling a hybrid of A and B (and maybe something of their own), then reheating it in a microwave oven.
  • When someone came to the White Wolf Pizza Joint expecting an (or braced for the impact of an...) eclectic recipe (because it's a WW Joint - this is what recipes WW do!), ordered Pizza B, and found it quite edible, and tried talking about Recipe B, the reaction of pizza veterans was . . . disapproving, let's call it.
  • Furthermore, everyone seems to have their own truth regarding what WW Pizza is or should be, and quoting recipes is, again, disapproved of.
  • Chief Committee C is trying to make Pizza C, and the interest of the community regarding that seems somewhat . . . um, is ghoulish the appropriate word? Sort of nasty I-told-you-so enthusiastic pointing at anything going wrong or disliked, possibly with a bit of Schadenfreude.
  • Many people rather liberally throw personal attacks/insults at Chiefs B and C.

Is reason of my puzzlement clearer now?
 
Keep ordering/eating the Recipe A pizza. (After all, the Chief A is fired, but they still have an infinite amount of his pizzas available.)
1e has mechanical problems of its own, mostly in the combat system, which 2e improves on - paranoia combat is awful, but at least it ends.
Find a different joint that cooks a different food (pizza or not) that largely contains the 'approved' ingredients, and perhaps also find some new ingredients you like in the process.
If you can point me to another RPG that has all the cool setting conceits and unique takes on things of Exalted, I'll gladly play it. So far the only setting I've found that's as cool is KSBD, and I don't think the RPG for that is out yet.
Help the joing with making Recipe C with their Chief Committee C. (That is, 3e, which is AFAIK not made by the sorts of people who wrote the Infamous Chapters and the like, but rather by the people who tried to fix stuff but were restricted by Chambers. Maybe I misunderstood that part.)
This runs into slight problems when the people making Recipe C don't like you, you don't like them, and you have strong disagreement over which parts of the recipe are good. Especially since things like Infinitely Compassionate Druggie Solar Jesus were from them.
Go talk to the joint's management and offer to become their new cook with a better recipe (inspired by recipes A and B). (E.g. when DouglasCole was unhappy with the way GURPS Basic/Martial Arts handles grappling rules, he went and wrote GURPS Technical Grappling; now his book enjoys a reasonable following/sales and DouglasCole became a respected if somewhat crunch-heavy author writing for SJG.)
"Get a job working for WW" is not a viable strategy. Especially when work in the RPG writing industry is as much who you know as what - see hatewheel, who basically got in through knowing Holden.
Buy cheese, mushrooms etc., and make a home-baked pizza (or not a pizza) for oneself and friends. (I.e. taking the good themes, and building something fresh, without the need to dance around the legacy code or sort through the fruits some of which come from a poisonous tree. Examples of taking similar themes [e.g. the theme of transhumanist science fiction] and building something fresh on them would be Transhuman Space vs. Eclipse Phase vs. Nova Praxis.)
This is basically what Kerisgame has done, but most people cannot or will not do this because they do not have the skill to write their own entire RPG sourcebook. That is, in fact, why they are trying to buy RPG sourcebooks. So that someone else can do the work of writing them.
 
Buy cheese, mushrooms etc., and make a home-baked pizza (or not a pizza) for oneself and friends. (I.e. taking the good themes, and building something fresh, without the need to dance around the legacy code or sort through the fruits some of which come from a poisonous tree. Examples of taking similar themes [e.g. the theme of transhumanist science fiction] and building something fresh on them would be Transhuman Space vs. Eclipse Phase vs. Nova Praxis.)
I know you've heard about the rule 0 fallacy. This thread has gone over it before with you. So why are you going back to it?
 
1e has mechanical problems of its own, mostly in the combat system, which 2e improves on - paranoia combat is awful, but at least it ends.
Oh, WW/ST mechanics are overall always not too good. I totally get the idea of creating new mechanics for Exalted from scratch, or from some universal system. Trying to fix them is probably more painful than should ever be necessary, but I haven't tried, so this is just a guess on my part. I'm also guessing your rework works good enough for you, which is what matters.

This runs into slight problems when the people making Recipe C don't like you, you don't like them, and you have strong disagreement over which parts of the recipe are good. Especially since things like Infinitely Compassionate Druggie Solar Jesus were from them.

"Get a job working for WW" is not a viable strategy. Especially when work in the RPG writing industry is as much who you know as what - see hatewheel, who basically got in through knowing Holden.
Hmm. Throughout my experience with RPGs, I've seen quite a few people become writers largely through the method of "buy books, read them, have RPG-related opinions, post some to the company forum, gain tinkering (or worldbuilding) experience, write a proposition / sample draft for the company, make it good enough to be accepted, get published". Some of those went further and started writing/getting published regularly. So "knowing someone" can largely boil down to "hang around the company forum, and write in a reasonably intelligent and interesting manner", it seems. For the record, I'm not an RPG author, but I'm an official RPG system FAQ keeper, and I got that title through no prior connections - just by proving myself capable of handling the compilation of Q&As and authorial quotes. Sure, connections make things easier, but IME people saying "Corruption is the only way to succeed" simply say this because they didn't reach their goals through other means.

Solutions to the problem that I would expect people to perform:
  • Buy cheese, mushrooms etc., and make a home-baked pizza (or not a pizza) for oneself and friends. (I.e. taking the good themes, and building something fresh, without the need to dance around the legacy code or sort through the fruits some of which come from a poisonous tree. Examples of taking similar themes [e.g. the theme of transhumanist science fiction] and building something fresh on them would be Transhuman Space vs. Eclipse Phase vs. Nova Praxis.)
This is basically what Kerisgame has done, but most people cannot or will not do this because they do not have the skill to write their own entire RPG sourcebook. That is, in fact, why they are trying to buy RPG sourcebooks. So that someone else can do the work of writing them.

And this is perhaps the source of the misunderstanding. For me, judging by things I've read indirectly, Kerisgame is this:
  • People buying Pizza A and Pizza B, taking their scissors, needles and threads, dissecting and reassembling a hybrid of A and B (and maybe something of their own), then reheating it in a microwave oven.

Anyway, I do agree that the point of buying RPG books is not having to work on them. (Though I do get the idea of a toolkit-book that requires choosing which bits are in play and which aren't. This is something more appropriate for crunch than for fluff, though, especially in cases where the fluff is meant to be one whole setting.) That's actually I find the idea of buying Pizza 1e and Pizza 2e and then working on changing some bits and combining them to be annoying.

I know you've heard about the rule 0 fallacy. This thread has gone over it before with you. So why are you going back to it?
What does the Oberoni/Rule 0 Fallacy has to do with this? I'm talking about the difference between trying to jury-rig a clunking mass vs. taking the cool themes and building something new and shiny from it. (Also vs. accepting the weird Pizza B as an eclectic-but-cool recipe, but I get that this isn't an option for most people's tastes.)
 
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Well the Players guide had rules for Akuma, and made it clear that Dukantha was one, and not one of the 50 Solar Essences.
Well, yes and no. This is one of the few things in Ex1 I have read up on and as far as I can tell, all Infernals were in Ex1 intended to be like Dukantha and that was being thought of with the 50 shards was some sort of pre-'Akuma-ized' Solars rather than something 'unique'. Given how OP powerful Dukantha is, a theoretical Solar version and 50 of them at that was probably thought to be threatening enough a suggestion. The idea of a real unique 'Yozi'/Infernal splat I'm fairly confident to not call an official idea untill Ex2.
 
Well, yes and no. This is one of the few things in Ex1 I have read up on and as far as I can tell, all Infernals were in Ex1 intended to be like Dukantha and that was being thought of with the 50 shards was some sort of pre-'Akuma-ized' Solars rather than something 'unique'. Given how OP powerful Dukantha is, a theoretical Solar version and 50 of them at that was probably thought to be threatening enough a suggestion. The idea of a real unique 'Yozi'/Infernal splat I'm fairly confident to not call an official idea untill Ex2.
I think we are not in a dissagrement here, certainly the E1 version was closer to akumasized Solars, but also acounted for the downside of akumasation. Meaning that they are closer to green tinged Solars like the oblivion tainted one then proto primordials and yet with free will.
 
Fine, I'll rephrase my puzzlement on the same level of words and analogies as this post of yours. (Just in case: I'm comparing pizzas to fluff. Crunch is a totally separate topic, and I don't see Exalted crunch as defensible other than through appeals to fluff.)

Solutions to the problem that I would expect people to perform:
  • Keep ordering/eating the Recipe A pizza. (After all, the Chief A is fired, but they still have an infinite amount of his pizzas available.)
  • Find a different joint that cooks a different food (pizza or not) that largely contains the 'approved' ingredients, and perhaps also find some new ingredients you like in the process.
  • Help the joing with making Recipe C with their Chief Committee C. (That is, 3e, which is AFAIK not made by the sorts of people who wrote the Infamous Chapters and the like, but rather by the people who tried to fix stuff but were restricted by Chambers. Maybe I misunderstood that part.)
  • Go talk to the joint's management and offer to become their new cook with a better recipe (inspired by recipes A and B). (E.g. when DouglasCole was unhappy with the way GURPS Basic/Martial Arts handles grappling rules, he went and wrote GURPS Technical Grappling; now his book enjoys a reasonable following/sales and DouglasCole became a respected if somewhat crunch-heavy author writing for SJG.)
  • Buy cheese, mushrooms etc., and make a home-baked pizza (or not a pizza) for oneself and friends. (I.e. taking the good themes, and building something fresh, without the need to dance around the legacy code or sort through the fruits some of which come from a poisonous tree. Examples of taking similar themes [e.g. the theme of transhumanist science fiction] and building something fresh on them would be Transhuman Space vs. Eclipse Phase vs. Nova Praxis.)
Solution/situation that I see upon coming here:
  • People buying Pizza A and Pizza B, taking their scissors, needles and threads, dissecting and reassembling a hybrid of A and B (and maybe something of their own), then reheating it in a microwave oven.
  • When someone came to the White Wolf Pizza Joint expecting an (or braced for the impact of an...) eclectic recipe (because it's a WW Joint - this is what recipes WW do!), ordered Pizza B, and found it quite edible, and tried talking about Recipe B, the reaction of pizza veterans was . . . disapproving, let's call it.
  • Furthermore, everyone seems to have their own truth regarding what WW Pizza is or should be, and quoting recipes is, again, disapproved of.
  • Chief Committee C is trying to make Pizza C, and the interest of the community regarding that seems somewhat . . . um, is ghoulish the appropriate word? Sort of nasty I-told-you-so enthusiastic pointing at anything going wrong or disliked, possibly with a bit of Schadenfreude.
  • Many people rather liberally throw personal attacks/insults at Chiefs B and C.
Is reason of my puzzlement clearer now?

Continuing on the pizza metaphor...

The first negative reaction you got is because you walked into the pizza joint, bought a pizza produced by Idiot Chef B, started talking about the pizza which you have only ever eaten as the product of Idiot Chef B... and began insisting that the added wasabi-and-kimchi special sauce was an integral part of the recipe as opposed to an unwanted addition, and that everyone present should shut up and accept this because it was produced by the official chef, despite him being an idiot. This clearly doesn't win points, yes?

The one we are in right now is because you seem to be unable to grok that it is possible to hate what Idiot Chef B has made of the recipe while still, generally speaking, liking pizzas that have most of the ingredients of said recipe. This even includes pizzas made with some of the stuff that Idiot Chef B has added, though executed better because some of us can home-cook pizzas better than idiots can do it in a restaurant kitchen. Though probably without the horribly clashing special sauce, which is a dealbreaker.

Makes sense? Including why people talk about the pizza made by Chef A in relation to that made by Idiot Chef B?

e: Now, C is a very different recipe to A, or the botched B variant of A that Idiot Chef B has produced. C is a new thing, which kinda tastes like A but isn't that closely related.
 
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Hmm. Throughout my experience with RPGs, I've seen quite a few people become writers largely through the method of "buy books, read them, have RPG-related opinions, post some to the company forum, gain tinkering (or worldbuilding) experience, write a proposition / sample draft for the company, make it good enough to be accepted, get published". Some of those went further and started writing/getting published regularly. So "knowing someone" can largely boil down to "hang around the company forum, and write in a reasonably intelligent and interesting manner", it seems. For the record, I'm not an RPG author, but I'm an official RPG system FAQ keeper, and I got that title through no prior connections - just by proving myself capable of handling the compilation of Q&As and authorial quotes. Sure, connections make things easier, but IME people saying "Corruption is the only way to succeed" simply say this because they didn't reach their goals through other means.

SJG and GURPS has an incredibly healthy community in these respects. They have a website listing works for hire and have a policy of accepting freelance work that meets a given standard for publication and have a community periodical that accepts further freelance work. GURPS is the only roleplaying game I know about that has a book policy of "if you want to see a book published, write it yourself, and we'll review it and maybe publish it". Using SJG/GURPS as a comparison falls somewhat flat because it's not the baseline - it's the shining city on a hill.
 
"Get a job working for WW" is not a viable strategy. Especially when work in the RPG writing industry is as much who you know as what - see hatewheel, who basically got in through knowing Holden.
There's actually a pretty relevant and hilarious chain of events here leading up til now. Because while hatewheel got in by knowing Holden, he was also (by his own admission) completely unfamiliar with the system or the setting at the time he was originally contracted as "a guy to write things", and only got himself 'up to speed' after he hammered out some things for Glories of the Most-High with vague descriptors of the notable events and actors. He was then immediately put in charge of the fluff-writing for Ink Monkeys and the final dog-days of 2e.

Holden, in surprisingly similar path, got his chance at the gig by writing a fanfiction about Alchemicals on the old dead White Wolf forums which happened to be liked by Neph (Michael Goodwin), prior writer of the Alchemical charmset. This got him a sitting seat on the Infernals book cross-checking mechanics despite having no prior aptitude for it (as evidenced by several poorly-executed Martial Arts styles he gets grumpy about when people remind him they exist).

Somehow this and his familiarity with Alchemicals got him placed at the head of that book for 2e with Neph's blessing, where he proceeded to elevate several of his fic characters to full-blown NPCs and replace the majority of the Alchemical Charms and systems with a house-ruled version his personal play-group favored. He was then put in charge of mechanics alongside Neph during Ink Monkeys (a notable standout of this being The Dawn Solution), and became the lead for the system overhaul when the Errata was revamped into 2.5, and finally into Ex3.

These are the two guys now in charge of the new Edition.
 
Continuing on the pizza metaphor...

The first negative reaction you got is because you walked into the pizza joint, bought a pizza produced by Idiot Chef B, started talking about the pizza which you have only ever eaten as the product of Idiot Chef B... and began insisting that the added wasabi-and-kimchi special sauce was an integral part of the recipe as opposed to an unwanted addition, and that everyone present should shut up and accept this because it was produced by the official chef, despite him being an idiot. This clearly doesn't win points, yes?
My manner was certainly clumsy and overconfident. I apologize. (Also, the intent was not quite what you seem to see it as, but I think saying anything more about that risks a tangent of RP philosophy not related to Exalted's fluff.)
I'm still unclear regarding how should a question/discussion of Recipe B be worded in order to avoid provoking the "do not ever eat B" reactions of all sorts.

The one we are in right now is because you seem to be unable to grok that it is possible to hate what Idiot Chef B has made of the recipe while still, generally speaking, liking pizzas that have most of the ingredients of said recipe. This even includes pizzas made with some of the stuff that Idiot Chef B has added, though executed better because some of us can home-cook pizzas better than idiots can do it in a restaurant kitchen. Though probably without the horribly clashing special sauce, which is a dealbreaker.

Makes sense?
Liking the ingredients and pizzas I understand. Homecooking I understand. Stitching a new pizza out of Pizza B while hating Pizza B so much, as opposed to picking the ingredients (i.e. worldbuilding themes and storytelling styles) is what I'm having trouble with; it seems like a process that still leaves too much Pizza-B-legacy-code, and requires certain deliberate 'unlearning' of things, as opposed to starting from a blank slate.
For comparison: I like the overall result of the New Battlestar Galactica (Reimagined), but I'm puzzled why the makers decided to reimage the original series instead of taking the theme of exile and robots and making a series totally from scratch. I haven't seen the original series, but I know that nBSG can brush the oBSG fans the wrong side. Reimaging changed so much that retaining the connection to the old series looks more like an unwanted restriction.

e: Now, C is a very different recipe to A, or the botched B variant of A that Idiot Chef B has produced. C is a new thing, which kinda tastes like A but isn't that closely related.
And speaking of the reimagined things, including Pizza C, the Exalted 3rd edition:
  • Chief Committee C is trying to make Pizza C, and the interest of the community regarding that seems somewhat . . . um, is ghoulish the appropriate word? Sort of nasty I-told-you-so enthusiastic pointing at anything going wrong or disliked, possibly with a bit of Schadenfreude.
^ This. Why?

Also, still not clear why personal attacks/insults against Chefs B and/or their work (Chambers, Holden etc.) are considered a reasonable, socially-acceptable behaviour, even though I do understand that people disagree with some/many of their ideas.
 
Liking the ingredients and pizzas I understand. Homecooking I understand. Stitching a new pizza out of Pizza B while hating Pizza B so much, as opposed to picking the ingredients (i.e. worldbuilding themes and storytelling styles) is what I'm having trouble with; it seems like a process that still leaves too much Pizza-B-legacy-code, and requires certain deliberate 'unlearning' of things, as opposed to starting from a blank slate.

Look, I'm going to be blunt.

Your "stitching a pizza together" metaphor is dumb, and apparently only created to mock the opposing position. If you were actually doing this properly, you'd realise that what you do with pizzas is "cook and prepare them", which means what the opposing position is doing is "taking the two recipes, and mostly using recipe A while adding bits from B which work better, and then adding their own changes".

Which, shockingly, is how making pizzas work. Everyone puts their own spin on things. That's why it's a good metaphor for running RPGs, because everyone puts their own twist on the setting. Trying to cling to a stupid "stitching together bits of pizza" metaphor for hybriding editions just makes it look like you're avoiding engaging with arguments.

RPGs are not a finished product, unless you're... like, only ever running pregenerated adventures. They're ingredients, but the GM has to actually still put the thing together and prepare it for the players. That's why I get annoyed when bad design or lazy writing increases the amount of work I have to do, because fuck it, I bought pre-made dough for a reason.
 
Can you elaborate on the themes of exalted that you like then?
Certainly. I like the fact that a number of archetypes fit really well, including some of my favorites - Mad Scientist, Robot Magician, Martial Arts Dystopia, Very Powerful Entities that are still, for good and bad, Human, and generally the fact that tapdancing on an avalanche while swordfighting a volcano god in a giant robot isn't out of place...
From what I've read of his posts.

The Transhumanism
Y'know, while it's something it's nice to believe is possible, and even have as an end goal... transhumanism is kind of a boring focus for a story, at least for me.
Probably quite similar to how cheerful, committed romances are rarely written about. They just don't work as a primary focus for anything but WAFF.
Just stop saying the game as a whole should change to fit your desires. No, Exalted would not be better if resurrection were possible. Your game, hypothetical or otherwise, would be better for you if resurrection were possible.
Fair enough. I should probably internalize translating "That doesn't work in this world, saying it could is stupid" to "unless it, being a work of fiction, works better for you this way, but I see that as unusual".
If you can point me to another RPG that has all the cool setting conceits and unique takes on things of Exalted, I'll gladly play it. So far the only setting I've found that's as cool is KSBD, and I don't think the RPG for that is out yet.
*Hurries up work on own settings*
If you would expound the bits you like in common?
 
Certainly. I like the fact that a number of archetypes fit really well, including some of my favorites - Mad Scientist, Robot Magician, Martial Arts Dystopia, Very Powerful Entities that are still, for good and bad, Human, and generally the fact that tapdancing on an avalanche while swordfighting a volcano god in a giant robot isn't out of place...
When I asked if you could describe the themes, I meant describe the themes. Those aren't themes.
 
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