General Exalted Thread

[Imrix]

To be precise, Essence is inherently unpredictable because its essential nature is that of limitless potential, but the Loom of Fate mostly predicts it anyway, because most of the Essence in Creation has had its limitless potential actualised into Stuff. Exalted heroes can actively manipulate Essence in ways the Loom was never built to allow or account for, though.

 

[Kaiya]

Well, yes, but the invocation of Essence on its own doesn't destroy predictions; something like an Excellency is not going to stretch predictive ability much because it's still roughly in line with what you were gonna do, while, say, a single use of Guarding Star Tactics to defend an army will warp all sorts of destinies, because the odds of those thousand people surviving that falling meteor were nonexistent.

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Well, I was picturing more like...Heavenly Guardian Defense, Heaven Sword Flash, Hail-Shattering Practice, ect, ect. The blatantly supernatural stuff that lets you survive/parry blows that should have killed you/hit way more people that you should have been able to.

Also, hah, we're on the Satan page.

 

[greensun]

Also, hah, we're on the Satan page.

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In the name of the Yozi, the true rulers of Creation and masters of all that they survery, I declare page 666 be dedicated to the Green Sun Princes, The Unquestionables of Hell and all things demonic!

Or it can be dedicated to the Unconquered Sun, if someone wants to play-up the rather uninspired Lucifer reference aspect of his lore.

 

[Scia]

Nah, Aztec Dinosauriers doing blood Sacrifices!
The dragon kings in my oppinion are one of the nicer aspects of the setting alas you are sadly n ever able to do anything with them, unless you are able to talk people into a All DK party, waking up in the Age of Sorrows.

That reminds me, I don't remember if that line survived into 2e but some Raptoks are working in the Bureau of Destiny being raised, and raising there children in Yu-Shan.

 

[Sucal]

Nah, Aztec Dinosauriers doing blood Sacrifices!
The dragon kings in my oppinion are one of the nicer aspects of the setting alas you are sadly n ever able to do anything with them, unless you are able to talk people into a All DK party, waking up in the Age of Sorrows.

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Yeah, I'm hoping they fix that for 3e.

All those shiny plant based artifacts or martial arts styles that were beyond all use.

 

[Hazard]

Hmm. That tells two interesting things about the world of Exalted:

1. The world is both finite and all of its values (position in space/time, amount of matter etc. etc.) can be measured in quantable, integer units (or can be accurately converted to such)
2. Souls are Black-Box True Random Number Generators.

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Actually, 1) no, in Exalted, if you can establish a sufficiently isolated location you can make that prediction that well. Given that Creation is afloat in a giant sea of chaos which has a size and many other traits of basically 'what the fuck is this answer,' making a sufficiently isolated location is hard.
2) No predictive system has ever managed to properly compensate for essence use in general, although mortals especially have only rarely broken out of a prediction.
3) Due to a weird matter of metaphysical heritage humanity descends from Raksha.

If all the medical stuff of our world (e.g PET) works in Exalted, that means that things function the same as in our world down to the sub-atomic level, and so any sorts of laws that are true in our world down to that level are also true in Creation, and also that any influences that don't exist in our world but would frak up all those phenomena if they existed don't exist in Exalted.
Not only does that look like too much science for a fantasy setting, but it also likely wasn't the intent of the authors (IMHO only), and probably contradicts some factual statements about the setting somewhere. I can certainly accept a setting that works like that, but I get the impression that Exalted isn't such a setting. E.g.:

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'This setting is animist' and 'all things have an essential nature' are not contradicting statements.

Uh, no. The ability to flip the bird to the Loom is a function of the ability to channel Essence to achieve effects, not the soul. The two are not the same.

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This is mistaken. Mortals can defy little-d destiny somewhat easily, even without Essence use, simply because the Loom is a predictive/probability manipulating object that can't account for everything perfectly. Little-d destiny is merely the expected and planned for path a given chunk of reality takes, which it usually follows according to plan, sometimes deviates in a small way and very rarely indeed gets snarled.

A mortal whose destiny is 'grow up, live and die on the family farm,' but instead 'grows up, joins the army, dies a career soldier 20 years later on a far off battlefield' is a distinct possibility, and that's still everything working as normal.

It's just that most mortals won't do that.

Essence use makes the deviations much stronger and more common unless they can be accounted for.

Defying capital-D Destiny is harder for everyone who is subject to it, and of all creatures subject to the Loom only the Celestial Exalted can break such attempted bindings with as little as a shrug.

 

[zorb42]

And on how Exaltations work... you have to remember that Exaltations were made for humans. Not because humans were mighty, or powerful. But because they weren't affected by the Primordial Geas, and so could tell people 'Fuck you' if given an order. Theoretically, you should be able to make Exaltation equivalents for Gods and Demons, but you'd need Autocthon to wake up and help you with it, since no one else really understands the Exaltation Souls that he made like he does.

But Exaltations are not made to enhance Gods or Demons, and it's a miracle and a half that they can even affect God-Blooded and the like.

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Question hijack. Did the exaltations as human and human derivate only thing got scrubbed in the 3rd edition setting, together with uniqueness of exaltations or is it still in?

 

[Walker of the Yellow Path]

Question hijack. Did the exaltations as human and human derivate only thing got scrubbed in the 3rd edition setting, together with uniqueness of exaltations or is it still in?

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Still in, AFAIK. The whole Exaltations can only be humans is an important part of the setting, since at the time most of the other races were under the Primordial Geas, or living well under the Primordials. The Humans were insignificant enough to not need the Geas, and were designed to be weak so they had to pray to gods and devas for survival.

 

[Kiyo]

Question hijack. Did the exaltations as human and human derivate only thing got scrubbed in the 3rd edition setting, together with uniqueness of exaltations or is it still in?

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Only humans can exalt. If that was your question.

The exaltation isn't derivated from humans, they're designed to work on/with humans and nothing else (mind, beastmen and spirit-blooded still count as human enough here. As does the current "Lintha", watered down bloodline they are).

 

[zorb42]

Only humans can exalt. If that was your question.

The exaltation isn't derivated from humans, they're designed to work on/with humans and nothing else (mind, beastmen and spirit-blooded still count as human enough here. As does the current "Lintha", watered down bloodline they are).

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Human derivate- ancestors were humans. More specifically still carry bits making them human enough.

 

[notthepenguins]

This is mistaken. Mortals can defy little-d destiny somewhat easily, even without Essence use, simply because the Loom is a predictive/probability manipulating object that can't account for everything perfectly. Little-d destiny is merely the expected and planned for path a given chunk of reality takes, which it usually follows according to plan, sometimes deviates in a small way and very rarely indeed gets snarled.

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Sure... sort of. I wouldn't specify it as 'somewhat easily,' but you're correct in the broad strokes.

This doesn't mean that the soul is responsible for it. You don't need a soul to violate fate.

 

[Hazard]

Sure... sort of. I wouldn't specify it as 'somewhat easily,' but you're correct in the broad strokes.

This doesn't mean that the soul is responsible for it. You don't need a soul to violate fate.

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Then please explain what things that have no soul in Exalted can still defy destiny. Oh, and no using things that are Outside Fate, things that are outside Fate can't defy destiny on account of not being subject to it in the first place.

 

[notthepenguins]

Then please explain what things that have no soul in Exalted can still defy destiny. Oh, and no using things that are Outside Fate, things that are outside Fate can't defy destiny on account of not being subject to it in the first place.

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Raksha, 1CDs, Gods, Elementals, behemoths, magic automata... like, seriously the books specify that anything channeling Essence can defy the Loom. Please, provide an explicit source for your claim that the soul is the magic ingredient, since as far as I can tell it is entirely your own invention.

 

[Imrix]

Shaped Raksha are the real clincher there, I should note. Entirely soulless, but also inside Fate by RAW.

 

[Hazard]

Raksha, 1CDs, Gods, Elementals, behemoths, magic automata... like, seriously the books specify that anything channeling Essence can defy the Loom. Please, provide an explicit source for your claim that the soul is the magic ingredient, since as far as I can tell it is entirely your own invention.

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Respectively; weird thing emulating a soul, soul, soul, soul, weird but probably a soul, souled body.

I also didn't say that a soul is the magic ingredient, but here's the thing; all objects in Creation have souls. That's what least gods are, all spirits are, and thus also all things in Creation.

Shaped Raksha are the real clincher there, I should note. Entirely soulless, but also inside Fate by RAW.

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Raksha run a soul emulation as part of their become Shaped. This emulation is not necessarily very good, but it's good enough they run on the same Virtue system as Creation does.

 

[notthepenguins]

I also didn't say that a soul is the magic ingredient,

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Bullshit, you absolutely did.

In Exalted the soul let's someone say 'no, that doesn't happen that way,' and the strength of one's soul, one's Essence rating really, gives a rough indication of how loudly they can say that and make it stick.

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but here's the thing; all objects in Creation have souls. That's what least gods are, all spirits are, and thus also all things in Creation.

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If you redefine 'soul' so broadly as to include literally everything, whether or not it even has proper sapience, sure, only things with souls can defy Fate.

If you redefine soul that broadly then your statement has no meaning, however, so I'm not exactly sure what the point is or why you're defending it so vehemently.

 

[Anasurimbor]

Which i suspect was a good portion of his motivation for choosing them to become exalted besides the practical implications.

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I suspect his primary motivation was that all the cool kids were doing it. That and the whole impending cosmic war thing. He would have been sad if all the humans got wiped out.

Theoretically, you should be able to make Exaltation equivalents for Gods and Demons, but you'd need Autocthon to wake up and help you with it, since no one else really understands the Exaltation Souls that he made like he does.

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Perhaps, though there's a good chance you'd have to rework the entire process from scratch, if it's even possible at all. Autochthon is not the only one who could help you, but somehow finding and waking him is probably easier than convincing the Unconquered Sun the wisdom of your plan.

Ok, so, this is technically headcanon because I've never seen it stated anywhere, but as I understand it, what happened is that Autochthon designed the Exaltations to, among other things, take his power of Innovation and Improvement, plug it into an energy source, and use the energy flavored with the Essence of Improvement to make it better at making energy. Then he added his own fatal disease in order to make it possible to kill his equals, and used his allies to give actual themes for the new Exalts to Improve along.

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I've seen that before, though I'm not sure to what extent that was ever directly stated in canon. Honestly, I somewhat prefer the early 1e/3e version where he wasn't directly involved in the initial creation of exaltation.

 

[Roadie]

I also didn't say that a soul is the magic ingredient, but here's the thing; all objects in Creation have souls. That's what least gods are, all spirits are, and thus also all things in Creation.

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Nnnno. "Spirit" and "soul" are not the same thing. Exalted in not D&D and spirits aren't Outsiders.

 

[Jon Chung]

But he also said that 1e and 2e are essentially the same setting. Anyway, "the ratio of bad to good is very [bad]" basically is the sort of statement that caused me to conclude that there is a strong sentiment in the community to at least reject a large part of the fluff. I don't see where there's a contradiction.

"You dislike X" - "I don't dislike X, it's just that X sucks" sounds like a weird dialogue to me, because the latter bit is pretty much an admission of disliking X. It seems like yet another of those misunderstandings that go on and on for pages because there's some sort of fundamental difference in the way you/Chung/etc. and I look at things. I'm sorry. I don't know how to dispel the misunderstanding if that's it.

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Look at it this way. Something is made and presented (1E). This has its ups and downs, but, overall, it works. I might bitch about triremes or the omnipresent Guild (both casualties of the map expansion), but these aren't dealbreakers, I can simply modify those in-play when I run because changing these things to make sense does not touch any load-bearing pillars.

A new boss takes over and starts cranking out retreads of the original thing, except badly done: little to no cool new stuff, they manage to leave out actual cool stuff from the original set, the rules flat don't work (Dragon-Blooded, Sidereals, Monk, Fair Folk...) and what new stuff does exist vacillates between boring and terribly unfitting, which you can identify because you already have all of the fluff they're busy reprinting and amending (badly).

So yes, 1E and 2E are basically the same setting, in that 2E's setting is largely the same as 1E's setting, plus dumbshit bits and bad mechanics. This is not mutually exclusive with rejecting most of 2E's books for being shit. You simply, in that case, revert to 1E's fluff - minus the dumbshit bits. It's entirely reasonable to go "I like Exalted" and "Exalted 2 is shit".

 

[Carrnage]

Look at it this way. Something is made and presented (1E). This has its ups and downs, but, overall, it works. I might bitch about triremes or the omnipresent Guild, but these aren't dealbreakers, I can simply modify those in-play when I run because changing these things to make sense does not touch any load-bearing pillars.

A new boss takes over and starts cranking out retreads of the original thing, except badly done: little to no cool new stuff, they manage to leave out actual cool stuff from the original set, the rules flat don't work (Dragon-Blooded, Sidereals, Monk, Fair Folk...) and what new stuff does exist vacillates between boring and terribly unfitting, which you can identify because you already have all of the fluff they're busy reprinting and amending (badly).

So yes, 1E and 2E are basically the same setting, in that 2E's setting is largely the same as 1E's setting, plus dumbshit bits and bad mechanics. This is not mutually exclusive with rejecting most of 2E's books for being shit. You simply, in that case, revert to 1E's fluff - minus the dumbshit bits.

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Weren't Infernals originally planned for 1E?

 

[Jon Chung]

Weren't Infernals planned for 1E?

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They certainly were mentioned - the line about Green Sun Princes is from way back. Whether an actual release was planned, I don't know.

 

[Omicron]

They certainly were mentioned - the line about Green Sun Princes is from way back. Whether an actual release was planned, I don't know.

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There was one actual Infernal statted in 1e - that being Dukantha. Now, 2e re-introduced Dukantha as a Dragon-Blooded Akuma, but his 1e presentation was different (notably because the concept of "akuma" didn't exist as such yet). Though based on "the frame" of a Dragon-Blood, in Blood & Salt, Dukantha is depicted as "an Infernal" and "a Prince of Hell," who "likes to think he can be a match for any of his fellow Infernal Exalted for wits and manners." He can only appear in Creation for the five days of Calibration, and his power set is that of a Dragon-Blood with Solar Circle Sorcery plus three (ridiculously powerful) custom powers. Though he is described as a "slave" eager to please his mistress, there is no indication that he is the kind of Urge-sockpuppet the akuma would later be designed as, or that he is in some important way different from "normal" Infernals.

 

[Jon Chung]

There was one actual Infernal statted in 1e - that being Dukantha. Now, 2e re-introduced Dukantha as a Dragon-Blooded Akuma, but his 1e presentation was different (notably because the concept of "akuma" didn't exist as such yet). Though based on "the frame" of a Dragon-Blood, in Blood & Salt, Dukantha is depicted as "an Infernal" and "a Prince of Hell," who "likes to think he can be a match for any of his fellow Infernal Exalted for wits and manners." He can only appear in Creation for the five days of Calibration, and his power set is that of a Dragon-Blood with Solar Circle Sorcery plus three (ridiculously powerful) custom powers. Though he is described as a "slave" eager to please his mistress, there is no indication that he is the kind of Urge-sockpuppet the akuma would later be designed as, or that he is in some important way different from "normal" Infernals.

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This is not the same class of entity as the fifty Green Sun Princes. As far as I know, there was no plan to do anything with them during 1E.

 

[Omicron]

This is not the same class of entity as the fifty Green Sun Princes. As far as I know, there was no plan to do anything with them during 1E.

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As I just said, there was no indication that Dukantha was a different "class of entity" as the fifty Green Sun Princes. As introduced in Blood & Salt, he was an "Infernal Exalt, Prince of Hell" with no implication that he was part of a different category alltogether from the "real" Infernal.

 

[Jon Chung]

As I just said, there was no indication that Dukantha was a different "class of entity" as the fifty Green Sun Princes. As introduced in Blood & Salt, he was an "Infernal Exalt, Prince of Hell" with no implication that he was part of a different category alltogether from the "real" Infernal.

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He's a Dragon-Blooded instead of a Solar. Definitionally, he's a different class of entity. There's no need for implications here, it's outright explicit.

Remember that "Infernal Exalt" could simply be used as a classification descriptor like "Celestial Exalt", which covers the very different Solar, Lunar and Sidereal Exalted.