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General Exalted Thread

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LordSquishy said:
As opposed to summoning a giant cloud of razor-sharp obsidian butterflies to dice them into ribbons?

I just can't bring myself to object to the thematic premise of having a "charm that lets you fuck people hard enough they really love you" in a game where you can (and are presumably encouraged to) manipulate other people by changing what they hear in conversations (Poisoned Tongue Technique) or force yourself into seeing through someone's eyes (Sense-Riding Technique), enslave spirits to your will (Water and Fire Legion), or pass your poisoning off to some other random person (Someone Else's Destiny).

It's a game of people doing shitty things to other people, and nearly all the charms reflect that.
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The objection is generally this:

Most people will not be murdered, mind controlled, or enslaved. Thus, there's no personal stake except for a "that's terrible!" involved. Quite a few people have been actual victims of rape or domestic abuse, and thus rape/domestic abuse tools like this are treading on very thin ground.

Something like what, one out of four women in the US will suffer from sexual assault or attempted sexual assault?
 
Aleph said:
Do explain how magical mind control counts as reinforcing a romantic relationship, rather than a fucked-up system of unequal power distribution where one participant is manipulating the other's views and ideals in whatever way they desire.
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Do explain how a Solar can ever have a relationship without it being "a fucked-up system of unequal power distribution where one participant is manipulating the other's views and ideals in whatever way they desire" once a Solar reaches superhuman levels of persuasive talent through magic.

As far as I'm aware, you can't "turn off" Ability or Attribute points, so is a Solar morally obligated not to date even highly critical thinkers, because they're just that much more persuasive?
 
Aleph said:
Do explain how magical mind control counts as reinforcing a romantic relationship, rather than a fucked-up system of unequal power distribution where one participant is manipulating the other's views and ideals in whatever way they desire.
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This is gettingninto the age old question of whether social charms are mind rape.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
The objection is generally this:

Most people will not be murdered, mind controlled, or enslaved. Thus, there's no personal stake except for a "that's terrible!" involved. Quite a few people have been actual victims of rape or domestic abuse, and thus rape/domestic abuse tools like this are treading on very thin ground.

Something like what, one out of four women in the US will suffer from sexual assault or attempted sexual assault?
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Assuming arguendo the merits of this statement, the lifetime victimization likelihood for theft is nearly a statistical inevitability, and for physical assault close to three in four. (old statistics, but the point remains.) Should we excise all martial arts and other combat charms/skills from Exalted?
 
Dark Lord Bob said:
Do explain how a Solar can ever have a relationship without it being "a fucked-up system of unequal power distribution where one participant is manipulating the other's views and ideals in whatever way they desire" once a Solar reaches superhuman levels of persuasive talent through magic.

As far as I'm aware, you can't "turn off" Ability or Attribute points, so is a Solar morally obligated not to date even highly critical thinkers, because they're just that much more persuasive?
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They can't. See, as it turns out? One of the things about having earth-shattering power at your fingertips, wherein your casual words can sway crowds, your merest gestures invoke passion, your slightest effort rend stone?

It means that any relations you have with muggles are going to be horribly unbalanced power exchanges, where they have very little control over the relationship, no real way to tell you 'no', and you have to be extraordinarily careful not to break them accidentally. Shocking, no?

It's an effort to grasp, I know. And possibly highly traumatic to come to terms with. Oh noes, my world-changing power comes with downsides! By its very nature it alienates me from normal people, unto whom I am as akin to a god; terrifying and distant and implacable as the moon or the tides or the sun itself! The masses regard me with fear and awe, for who could dare to look upon a god-king as an equal, or challenge him when he can change a man's entire worldview without a hint of effort?

Thing is, that's sort of a running theme in the gameline. It's a feature. Not a bug.

(If you look reeeeaaaally closely, one of the main points of the First Age Solars was their increasing distance from the people of Creation they were meant to be ruling and the power imbalance that was simultaneously causing it and being fed by it. It was, in fact, one of the main reasons for the Usurpation.)
LordSquishy said:
Assuming arguendo the merits of this statement, the lifetime victimization likelihood for theft is nearly a statistical inevitability, and for physical assault close to three in four. (old statistics, but the point remains.) Should we excise all martial arts and other combat charms/skills from Exalted?
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Is there a similarly fucked-up, abusive, victim-blaming and traumatic system of shaming and social judgement ingrained in our culture towards victims of theft and physical assault as there is for victims of rape?

I mean, I get that Exalted wants to be EDGY and MATURE, but most sensible forms of media have at least started to get the message that if you are not very sure you can handle the topic of rape in a competent way, you just avoid the damn thing altogether. One would have thought that the Abyssal Rape Ghosts fallout would have taught the devs that much about explicit sexxoring Charms.
 
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Aleph said:
They can't. See, as it turns out? One of the things about having earth-shattering power at your fingertips, wherein your casual words can sway crowds, your merest gestures invoke passion, your slightest effort rend stone?

It means that any relations you have with muggles are going to be horribly unbalanced power exchanges, where they have very little control over the relationship, no real way to tell you 'no', and you have to be extraordinarily careful not to break them accidentally. Shocking, no?

It's an effort to grasp, I know. And possibly highly traumatic to come to terms with. Oh noes, my world-changing power comes with downsides! By its very nature it alienates me from normal people, unto whom I am as akin to a god; terrifying and distant and implacable as the moon or the tides or the sun itself! The masses regard me with fear and awe, for who could dare to look upon a god-king as an equal, or challenge him when he can change a man's entire worldview without a hint of effort?

Thing is, that's sort of a running theme in the gameline. It's a feature. Not a bug.

(If you look reeeeaaaally closely, one of the main points of the First Age Solars was their increasing distance from the people of Creation they were meant to be ruling and the power imbalance that was simultaneously causing it and being fed by it. It was, in fact, one of the main reasons for the Usurpation.)
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So...

How is being magically awesome at sex to the point of making people lust after you, and the afterglow effect, more morally wrong than an Exalt's default capacity?
 
LordSquishy said:
Assuming arguendo the merits of this statement, the lifetime victimization likelihood for theft is nearly a statistical inevitability, and for physical assault close to three in four. (old statistics, but the point remains.) Should we excise all martial arts and other combat charms/skills from Exalted?
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Being punched or having your stuff stolen is a violation of rights, property, and self, but it's a significantly lower violation, with much less trauma involved, than the violation of intimacy that rape or domestic abuse entails. Is that societal indoctrination at work or an actual objective fact of psychology? Who knows, but either way it's the perspective the audience is working with.
 
Dark Lord Bob said:
So...

How is being magically awesome at sex to the point of making people lust after you, and the afterglow effect, more morally wrong than an Exalt's default capacity?
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Because this Charm has no other purpose than "I CAN CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS WITH MY DICK!", and yet someone decided that it was a good Charm to take up corebook space with, rather than spending that space on something a) more useful and b) less contentious.

By contrast, mundane skill is fully subsumed under the standard core system, which doesn't mention sex once and covers the basic mechanics of how you play the game. Unbalanced power exchanges there are an emergent property of the system, not the result of wordcount dedicated to the explicit purpose of making them.
 
The charm is easy to refluff; it let's you bring out during emotions relative to you which drastically affect your relationship. A lover has incredible orgasms, a prisoner is so terrified they continue to void their bowels long after they're empty, a friend with bad nerves becomes more relaxed than a matter of meditation, etc.
 
Aleph said:
Is there a similarly fucked-up, abusive, victim-blaming and traumatic system of shaming and social judgement ingrained in our culture towards victims of theft and physical assault as there is for victims of rape?
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There is if you're poor or black. Just ask @Teocraso.

I mean, I get that Exalted wants to be EDGY and MATURE, but most sensible forms of media have at least started to get the message that if you are not very sure you can handle the topic of rape in a competent way, you just avoid the damn thing altogether. One would have thought that the Abyssal Rape Ghosts fallout would have taught the devs that much about explicit sexxoring Charms.
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I don't think the solution to fixing "fucked up, abusive, and victim-blaming social judgement about rape" is to pretend it doesn't exist.

MJ12 Commando said:
Being punched or having your stuff stolen is a violation of rights, property, and self, but it's a significantly lower violation, with much less trauma involved, than the violation of intimacy that rape or domestic abuse entails.
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That's a really difficult argument to make. It involves a quantitative assessment of damage from specific offenses that, to my knowledge, has never been done. It of course opens the further can of worms: what if someone is really really hurt? Should we ban the discussion of Nazis because Nazis did really really bad things as opposed to only sort of kind of bad things or not really that bad things?

Is that societal indoctrination at work or an actual objective fact of psychology? Who knows, but either way it's the perspective the audience is working with.
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I appreciate the perspective of the audience. I'm just not sure it is, or should be, a determinative perspective. You should know this more than most. Look at how we handle sentencing.
 
Mutton said:
The charm is easy to refluff; it let's you bring out during emotions relative to you which drastically affect your relationship. A lover has incredible orgasms, a prisoner is so terrified they continue to void their bowels long after they're empty, a friend with bad nerves becomes more relaxed than a matter of meditation, etc.
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And were it fluffed that way, as a general Charm that can be used in a wide variety of contexts of which sex is merely one, I wouldn't be nearly as bothered about it, and would be entirely happy with it as a Solar Charm.
LordSquishy said:
I don't think the solution to fixing "fucked up, abusive, and victim-blaming social judgement about rape" is to pretend it doesn't exist.
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You are correct. The solution to fixing it is "leaving it to the people who know what they're talking about and who can handle it without smothering it under toxic implications and sparking pointless controversy". The Exalted devs have on several occasions shown that they cannot do this on either count.

Fundamentally, I object to the basic concept of "fucking someone into being a good guy", which appears to be what this Charm intends for you to do, a'la James Bond. Unfortunately, Bond is a misogynistic sociopathic sexist asshole, and I strongly feel that reinforcing this attitude towards changing people's minds is a toxic one given how deeply it's already ingrained in the culture. Further, I honestly can't see a need for Glorious Solar Dicking Prana. A more general Charm like the one described above, sure, but this is pointlessly niche and only seems to encourage players to regard sex as a tool for manipulation.

The Scroll of Swallowed Darkness was not meant to be taken seriously. This might as well have been pulled straight from its still-dripping pages.
 
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Mutton said:
The charm is easy to refluff; it let's you bring out during emotions relative to you which drastically affect your relationship. A lover has incredible orgasms, a prisoner is so terrified they continue to void their bowels long after they're empty, a friend with bad nerves becomes more relaxed than a matter of meditation, etc.
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That would honestly make it a much better charm, in every way.
 
Aleph said:
Because this Charm has no other purpose than "I CAN CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS WITH MY DICK!", and yet someone decided that it was a good Charm to take up corebook space with, rather than spending that space on something a) more useful and b) less contentious.

By contrast, mundane skill is fully subsumed under the standard core system, which doesn't mention sex once and covers the basic mechanics of how you play the game. Unbalanced power exchanges there are an emergent property of the system, not the result of wordcount dedicated to the explicit purpose of making them.
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Pretty much all charms have the purposes of unbalancing power exchanges. You can be a Solar who's mildly interested in swordplay and defeat the best mortal ever. You can convince religious leaders that their religion is a sham.

There are charms that have no other purpose than "I JUMP GOOD!" or "I CAN HIT FAST." Are they inherently more worthy of being in the corebook because you like the power unbalances they represent? Because being supernaturally skilled at sex to the point of people lusting after you fits the Heroic themes almost, if not exactly, as well.

Edit:
It seems you've answered my questions previously. I guess it just comes down to me wanting to be able to emulate James Bond, and you not liking what he represents.

Edit2:
I'd be perfectly fine with improving this charm by making it more generally applicable, as has been suggested, I just don't see a need to do so because of some inherent wrongness it possesses. They should still probably add a consensuality clause.
 
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Aleph said:
You are correct. The solution to fixing it is "leaving it to the people who know what they're talking about and who can handle it without smothering it under toxic implications and sparking pointless controversy". The Exalted devs have on several occasions shown that they cannot do this on either count.
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Leaving people whose opinions and attitudes you don't like out of the conversation has never been a great methodology for this sort of thing.

Fundamentally, I object to the basic concept of "fucking someone into being a good guy", which appears to be what this Charm intends for you to do, a'la James Bond. Unfortunately, Bond is a misogynistic sociopathic sexist asshole, and I strongly feel that reinforcing this attitude towards changing people's minds is a toxic one given how deeply it's already ingrained in the culture.
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Don't get me wrong: I agree. But I think this argument can equally apply to a huge whack of Exalted (and for that matter most RPG's) handling of conflict. Basically, Exalted is a RPG. It also demonstrates an utterly piss-poor approach to conflict resolution that's disturbingly adolescent. But I repeat myself.

Further, I honestly can't see a need for Glorious Solar Dicking Prana. A more general Charm like the one described above, sure, but this is pointlessly niche and only seems to encourage players to regard sex as a tool for manipulation.
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This is a different, and in my opinion much better, argument.
 
Tiresias said:
Really? Because here's my point of view: "If the Solar is in a romantic relationship with someone, they can reinforce their relationship by having sex."

You know, like normal people do all the time.
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It would be fine if the charm did that instead of what it actually does. You can write a charm which lets you use sexual intercourse to reinforce your romantic relationship with them, but that charm should let you gain the same benefits from a game of Gateway or a hunting trip. Because people in a romantic relationship can use those to reinforce it as well.

The obsession with sex and the excited assurances that our partners had mindblowing orgasms are the stuff of inexperienced teenagers awkwardly writing slashfic using only a single hand. What I find objectionable is how juvenile it comes across as.
 
Mutton said:
It's just a case of the devs not thinking something through. They wanted to give you James Bond, not Deliverence.
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Funny.

You'd think they'd have learned, after... oh, say, the Abyssal rape-spectres. You'd even think they were paid to think things through.

Nah. It's not like they have a pattern of ill-thought of things, thematically or mechanically, right? And I strongly suspect the Charm chapter will be a bloated corpulent mess compared to the clean efficiency of the 2E corebook charms, if this niche effect which will be undesirable to a lot of characters is considered corebook material.

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Oh wait! Did I say something mean? Will this summon in the dreadful spectres of the beta-tester defence squad? The dreadful, dreadful spectres?
 
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EarthScorpion said:
Funny.

You'd think they'd have learned, after... oh, say, the Abyssal rape-spectres. You'd even think they were paid to think things through.

Nah. It's not like they have a pattern of ill-thought of things, thematically or mechanically, right? And I strongly suspect the Charm chapter will be a bloated corpulent mess compared to the clean efficiency of the 2E corebook charms, if this niche effect which will be undesirable to a lot of characters is considered corebook material.

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Oh wait! Did I say something mean? Will this summon in the dreadful spectres of the beta-tester defence squad? The dreadful, dreadful spectres?
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Honestly, the rape ghosts was something completely different. It was bizarre and completely out of left field.
 
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