lament in the sperglord's general directions until I'm banned or they stop sperging so hardcore

jesus christ i tap out you spergy cunts, peace.

you fucking sperglord?

In exactly what alternate reality do you think it's acceptable to just start using ASD as the basis of an insult after being told not to use autistic?

Further, all of you need to chill out. This is getting ridiculous.
 
You cannot reproduce the backstory of Exalted in the system. You never could, in any edition, but in 3e they've explicitly gone on record saying they're not even trying. That time is done, and over, and such as its like shall never again grace Creation. "Does this fuck up the Usurpation Y/N?" is a very useless metric in 3e. No one in power cares. Nor do the testers, frankly.
The issue I have is not that you cannot model the Usurpation. There are far too many unknown contextual factors in the Usurpation, detailing all of which would be totally pointless.

The primary use of the term "Usurpation-OK", as I see it, is to indicate whether or not a Charm allows Elders - or Solars, for that matter, but it's Elders that particularly concern me - to fuck with everyone else with impunity. That shouldn't be the case, for a number of reasons. When it is the case - like when my Terrestrial assassination plot, painstakingly put together over almost a decade, finally comes to fruition and all of my corrupt god-lord's allies turn on him as I draw my jade daiklave and oh for fuck's sake he decided he was a doombot - both system and setting start to look really fucking stupid.

There will not be another Usurpation for me to model. There will be many more usurpations, little u. My Lunar Circle will hold down Ma-Ha-Suchi while his mortal prisoners bash his head in with a rock. My Wyld Hunt party will stalk the Bull of the North across white wastelands. My Solar will attempt to call Chejop Kejak to account for his sins.

Very few people are literally talking about modelling the Usurpation - they are talking about preserving the tenets that the Usurpation suggests or imposes.

(similar sentiment applies to other aspects of system/setting interaction - no-one wants an actual simulation, but the system should produce or encourage the kind of outcomes that the setting suggests we should expect)

EDIT: Well, that escalated quickly.
 
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So I see you're completely ignoring the objection brought up that "The playtest shouldn't be the first level of error-checking. That's the job of the writers. If things that poorly written and thought out are being submitted to the playtest, something has gone wrong in the process".
Mm. This much I'll disagree with. Even Mark Rosewater of Magic: The Gathering is pretty clear that his excellent record designing cards, sets and mechanics is as much a credit to his editors telling him, "Mark, this idea is batshit, you've gotta drop it," as his own skill and creativity.
 
Mm. This much I'll disagree with. Even Mark Rosewater of Magic: The Gathering is pretty clear that his excellent record designing cards, sets and mechanics is as much a credit to his editors telling him, "Mark, this idea is batshit, you've gotta drop it," as his own skill and creativity.

Yes, but that wasn't the first round of playtesing. Mark Rosewater also explains how a lot of the cards are playtested purely by designers to test new mechanics even before the final cards are handed off to development. Editors shouldn't come into play until AFTER the designers and developers have tested them out, and even after the editors have a turn or two they can still decide whether or not they want to remove it or not.

Holden and Morke as the designers should have tested the charms before they handed them off to the developers/freelancers and THEN given them off to the playtesters.
 
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Mm. This much I'll disagree with. Even Mark Rosewater of Magic: The Gathering is pretty clear that his excellent record designing cards, sets and mechanics is as much a credit to his editors telling him, "Mark, this idea is batshit, you've gotta drop it," as his own skill and creativity.

The playtest should also not be the second level of error checking. There should be a level of "code review" before it's sent off to the testers - and code review by someone who didn't write the Charm. The person who wrote it should check it, then it should be handed off to someone who hasn't written it for "code review", then it should be given to the testers.

This kind of structure for projects - and it is an appropriate metaphor, given each Charm can be considered a method in a sense - is a well-established thing in several industries. It's not exactly rocket science. It's a basic system for catching errors early. The problem is that this got to the playtesters, which indicates that there's problems higher up the chain.
 
The playtest should also not be the second level of error checking. There should be a level of "code review" before it's sent off to the testers - and code review by someone who didn't write the Charm. The person who wrote it should check it, then it should be handed off to someone who hasn't written it for "code review", then it should be given to the testers.

This kind of structure for projects - and it is an appropriate metaphor, given each Charm can be considered a method in a sense - is a well-established thing in several industries. It's not exactly rocket science. It's a basic system for catching errors early. The problem is that this got to the playtesters, which indicates that there's problems higher up the chain.
You have jumped straight from the "is this a good/bad Charm" topic into the conclusion that "it is a bad Charm, but what matters is what it tells us about the people who let it through."

Stop there. Take a step back to the "is this a good/bad Charm" point.

Understand that the structure of the Ex3 playtest is not broken because it let a self-evidently bad Charm through - because it did not let a self-evidently bad Charm through.

Look at this Charm, and realize what it is meant to do and what this means about the prioritization at work in Exalted's writing, and the differences between these priorities and yours.

Realize that there are people who are fully aware of any objection you could bring up to this Charm who are nonetheless cheering it as one of the many awesome things in this game.

And... Well, I don't know. Take your pick of "shrugging acceptance and moving on," "throwing your hands in the air and rant about the game being ruined," and "try something new for a change." But you're a man of strong opinions, so I assume the last one is out, and you have always been pretty vocal about your preferences, so I guess the first one isn't a possibility either.
 
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(I'd also make it Sorcery, not a Charm, simply because 'I have a body double' is fucking cool and shouldn't be limited to Solar charm tech when so many other splats can make that part of their thematics)
Sidereals have Duck Fate, so I think they're covered. Also, potentially a balanced form of Obsidian Mirrors of Cheating.

Lunars could definitely have this as a Charm or Knack, and definitely should if anyone at all has the option of Doombotting.

Getimians and Liminals and Abyssals and Alchemicals likely have their own flavors.

Not Terrestrials so much, I think.
 
I can do Toukou Aozaki "my puppet replica of me is so like me that when I die my puppet become me" bullshit now, that is good enough for me.
 
There comes a point where the power of something is too extreme to coexist with things beneath its level; everyone in the universe is irrelevant compared to Goku. The universe itself has ceased to matter, for he is a self-contained megaton bomb, indestructible and omnipotent. You can't tell the stories you told with child Goku, or even young adult Goku, with elder Goku. His presence warps things.

The First Age is elder Goku. The Usurpation involved many elder Gokus. The Primordial War was Gokus everywhere. The current story is not about elder Goku, and it's simply not practical to have a system that can represent elder Goku's capabilities while providing a robust and balanced experience for Piccolo, Krillin, Yajirobe, or hell, even Vegeta at times.

Getting my point here?
You've gotten this almost exactly backwards. MJ12 is describing how kamehameha is overpowered and you're come in with this angle? That's not the issue.

I very much wish that the "problem" was the game failing to model overpowered Solars. Instead, the problem appears to be, as with previous editions, unstoppable Solars, who render irrelevant all those beneath them, and thus make the world small and empty, no matter what scale is printed on the map legend or how many sourcebooks are released.

Is it really so much to ask that Solars not be Goku? That they aren't immune to the massed efforts of mortals and terrestrials? Is that goal really so lofty?
 
Is it really so much to ask that Solars not be Goku? That they aren't immune to the massed efforts of mortals and terrestrials? Is that goal really so lofty?
Thankfully, they are not. One of the main aspects of Ex3 is that everyone is relevant and dangerous, and no Solar gets to be "immune" to mortals - let alone other Exalts.
 
Ex2 sucked not because it was simulationist, but because it failed to simulate the universe in a playable manner. It's the difference between say, Star Trek: Starfleet Command and Battlecruiser 3000 AD. Post-hoc abilities are an entirely valid design space, but being able to declare that I was always telepresencing a HITMark in a Technocracy game and being able to declare "SURPRISE! That was a Doombot that happened to have Solar charms!" in a Exalted game are entirely different, because, well, in one game it's expected that you can pull off crazy bullshit like that and in the other game killing people is supposed to be the easiest way to solve problems.
My point was that 3e has stepped back some from trying to be simulationist, because trying too hard and failing is one of the things that got 2e in trouble. There's also a lot of places where it stepped back because many people found certain things - like the Charms are Real bit - to be awful.

IOW, while 3e is definitely trying to represent the world, it's willing to be a lot more abstract about it. (For the purpose of the mechanical-game parts being fun in-and-of-themselves.)



If this charm is basically 'end the game, you win', why have it?
It isn't.

It isn't a Elder Charm either. That statement was directed at charms that would basically be "yeah, you probably win this encounter without some seriously careful planning and a big firepower disparity."

More importantly because this has a huge permanent cost, I think it's actually a Bad Charm all-around.
Agree there.

It's largely only useful for NPCs with arbitrary amounts of XP,
Do note that NPCs don't generally have experience at all.

and it's not very Solar-thematic. Like, Solar "Ha Ha I Didn't Die" Charms I'd accept would be things like Resistance Charms which you activate in response to a killing blow which immediately take you out of battle, but shockingly enough oh look, they can't find the body and oh look you're still alive. Obviously, if they do find the body then you're shit out of luck. Things like "I get right back up because I am just that righteous and noble". Not "I have a robot body double." No, that smacks to me of, I dunno, Alchemicals, or maybe some weird Cecelyne sand-double charm
Mostly don't like the themes themselves, and the thing isn't specifically a robot and all. There are obvious thematic issues with the charm, but the idea of some sort of clay body double that dies in your place is interesting. Just the specific fluff implementation leaves much to be lacking.

, and in both cases I'd trade a high non-renewable resource cost (XP) for having significant in-game drawbacks which don't permanently reduce your permanent ability to run around and Do Things.
Agree completely.


Or maybe Crafting XP or whatever is only relevant if you're a crafter? Who knows. That'd seem to be kind of overcomplicating things, though, if you have fifty different flavors of XP, one for each type of long-term dramatic action.
Unknown.

Really, again, I think it was purposefully thrown at them to see how they react, and if it knocks loose any different ideas.

4. How furiously the Exalted playtesters are defending this charm like it was ~their honor~ at stake.

Please do not do this. It's just shit-stirring and can be thrown right back in your face easily.

As an incidental note, just because Charms are no longer distinct in-setting bits of knowledge that you learn, doesn't mean they aren't 'real things' in the setting. Just because Seven Shadow Evasion doesn't make the setting statement that, "the Solar Exalted can learn a technique called SSE which dodges anything" does not stop SSE from expressing the statement that Solar Exalted can evade any assault.

Good to point out in case anyone else was confused, yes.
 
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Then that creates a strange divide between the player characters, who can create robot doubles, and NPCs, who for some reason can't or won't.
"Charms don't exist" is one of the helpful statements put forward by the developers some time ago that might help approach this (apparent) dissonance.

There isn't, in-setting, a list of "Craft powers" that Twilight can open, browse, and purchase stuff from; Charms are mechanical abstractions that represent the unique abilities of your Exalted character. Dual Magnus Prana is not a natural development of any Twilight crafter, something that a crafter with enough xp will grab on the way as a matter of course. And whatever "wxp" is, NPCs don't have it. They might, if your ST deems it appropriate, have perfect sorcerous doubles. They don't have "Dual Magnus Prana." (though your ST may choose to note down "Dual Magnus Prana" on their sheet for convenience).

Most likely? No NPC will have either this Charm or the ability to produce sorcerous body doubles. This Charm is there to represent a gimmick of the greatest artificer in the setting, in case you would like to, say, play that character. It's there as a canonical example of the kind of unique greatness your character can achieve. There are others. It's entirely possible no one has done it before, and no one will ever do it again. (though they may well achieve their own unique peaks of greatness!)

I know, this is offending to the sensibilities of some. Shikata ga nai. Different people have different tastes.
 
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That kind of divide has always been there. I mean, hell, in 2nd edition, NPC's normally didn't stunt, and I'm pretty sure they didn't have xp, either.
NPCs did not have XP and couldn't go into XP debt from training charms. However, it is extras that cannot stunt, not NPCs, though an NPC stunting starts to get into iffy territory since the ST is the adjudicator of how much a stunt is worth.

I will say that this leak has significantly impacted my expectations for 3E in a somewhat negative manner. I recognize that the charms and anima powers were presented outside of context and are acknowledged to be obsolete at the time of the leak.
 
I'm going to come in with a completely different topic. I like Lunars, but I've heard about and noticed myself that there are some oddities regarding their Charmset. I don't want to open a can of worms by discussing how to overhaul them into being appealing and playable, but I was wondering if anything would break spectacularly if I replaced Lunar Hero Style as written with White Reaper Style from Glories: Luna. In essence, I'm designating White Reaper Style as the new "natural" unarmed combat style for Lunars, including Enhanced-keyword effects and the ability to create spinoff Charms.

In the interests of not stretching the page, I'll put my elaborations under a spoiler tag.
My reasons for doing this have almost certainly been stated elsewhere long before this post. While the aesthetics of canon Lunar Hero Style might be "closer" thematically, I don't think there are many arguments that Lunar Hero Style is a) mechanically appealing or b) particularly iconic of Lunars themselves, at least in comparison to their native Charms. Native Lunar Charms tend to have vastly expanded applicability in comparison to a Celestial Martial Art, which in my opinion reinforces the need for the natural Lunar martial art to have some kind of "wow" factor that makes it distinct from Strength Charms, Dexterity Charms, etc. As it stands, canon Lunar Hero Style is a watered-down version of the Charms it "should" be "breaking away" from. I see very few effects that could not be replicated by existing or homebrewed Lunar Charms.

White Reaper Style carries an iconic and undeniably Lunar aesthetic that really pops out in comparison to most other Charmsets across Exalted 2e. It has a unique mechanic, as far as I can tell, involving the generation and expenditure of halos. White Reapers classically wield spears or scythes in conjunction with the style, if they wield weapons at all. With the sheer variety of form weaponry in the other "hero styles" (all sorts of "brawling aids" plus improvised weaponry for Solar Hero, Dark Messiah, and Infernal Monster; knives, swords, staves, and seven-section staves for Violet Bier of Sorrows), I don't see too much of a problem with just throwing spears and scythes as form weapons into the new Lunar Hero Style.

I don't see this change as endangering either Lunar Hero or White Reaper Style because those Charms are literally learnable by anyone with the proper qualifications and a tutor of some sort. In other words, the uniqueness of each is self-contained. The canon Lunar Hero Style could be refluffed as some other martial art, or its effects updated and integrated into White Reaper as expansions. On that note, expansions on White Reaper have the potential to be absolutely glorious if they introduce new ways to use halos, but non-halo expansions can be just as appealing.
 
I'm going to come in with a completely different topic. I like Lunars, but I've heard about and noticed myself that there are some oddities regarding their Charmset. I don't want to open a can of worms by discussing how to overhaul them into being appealing and playable, but I was wondering if anything would break spectacularly if I replaced Lunar Hero Style as written with White Reaper Style from Glories: Luna. In essence, I'm designating White Reaper Style as the new "natural" unarmed combat style for Lunars, including Enhanced-keyword effects and the ability to create spinoff Charms.

In the interests of not stretching the page, I'll put my elaborations under a spoiler tag.
My reasons for doing this have almost certainly been stated elsewhere long before this post. While the aesthetics of canon Lunar Hero Style might be "closer" thematically, I don't think there are many arguments that Lunar Hero Style is a) mechanically appealing or b) particularly iconic of Lunars themselves, at least in comparison to their native Charms. Native Lunar Charms tend to have vastly expanded applicability in comparison to a Celestial Martial Art, which in my opinion reinforces the need for the natural Lunar martial art to have some kind of "wow" factor that makes it distinct from Strength Charms, Dexterity Charms, etc. As it stands, canon Lunar Hero Style is a watered-down version of the Charms it "should" be "breaking away" from. I see very few effects that could not be replicated by existing or homebrewed Lunar Charms.

White Reaper Style carries an iconic and undeniably Lunar aesthetic that really pops out in comparison to most other Charmsets across Exalted 2e. It has a unique mechanic, as far as I can tell, involving the generation and expenditure of halos. White Reapers classically wield spears or scythes in conjunction with the style, if they wield weapons at all. With the sheer variety of form weaponry in the other "hero styles" (all sorts of "brawling aids" plus improvised weaponry for Solar Hero, Dark Messiah, and Infernal Monster; knives, swords, staves, and seven-section staves for Violet Bier of Sorrows), I don't see too much of a problem with just throwing spears and scythes as form weapons into the new Lunar Hero Style.

I don't see this change as endangering either Lunar Hero or White Reaper Style because those Charms are literally learnable by anyone with the proper qualifications and a tutor of some sort. In other words, the uniqueness of each is self-contained. The canon Lunar Hero Style could be refluffed as some other martial art, or its effects updated and integrated into White Reaper as expansions. On that note, expansions on White Reaper have the potential to be absolutely glorious if they introduce new ways to use halos, but non-halo expansions can be just as appealing.
I don't really see any problems myself, but to be fair, I'm not too competent with the nitty-gritty of the mechanics, so I'll have to cede to those more knowledgeable to myself. Besides, a fair few people agree that Lunar charms are kinda crappy.
 
Most likely? No NPC will have either this Charm or the ability to produce sorcerous body doubles. This Charm is there to represent a gimmick of the greatest artificer in the setting, in case you would like to, say, play that character. It's there as a canonical example of the kind of unique greatness your character can achieve. There are others. It's entirely possible no one has done it before, and no one will ever do it again. (though they may well achieve their own unique peaks of greatness!)

I know, this is offending to the sensibilities of some. Shikata ga nai. Different people have different tastes.

Sore ga tasuketa koto ga dekimasu. (Arigatōgozaimasu gūguru transratru!)

When I GM games, I like to have the book assist me in doing so. For example, when I want to use a Solar as an antagonist, it's nice to have a list of a bunch of stuff a Solar can do to draw from. Maybe, strictly speaking, no such thing as a 'Charm' exists, and the stuff called a Charm is just an abstraction of the kind of thing a Solar can generally do - whatever, I just need to know what kind of stuff Evil Solar Dude can do. I could just make shit up, I guess, but I could also make the entire Exalted setting up too; the books are there because I'd like someone with the skill and time on their hands to save me the effort of making up the Exalted system and world.

But when you then tell me that "no, these Fancy Magical Powers are only for PCs, NPCs can't use them", that means that there's less Fancy Magical Powers in the book for me to give both Evil Solar Dude and Helpful Solar Ally. By the rationale you've presented, even, if there are two characters who want to play the Greatest Artificer in the setting (let's call them Urza and Mishra, and say that their rivalry is legendary), only one of them should pick the Doombot Charm, because it's a unique power.

This means that the overall utility of those Charms is reduced, because the part of the page one of these Charms occupies becomes effectively blank the moment someone picks it. It's a piece of the book that, for the rest of the game, I can't use to make more Evil Solar Dudes or Helpful Solar Allies. The moment Urza picks the Fancy Magical Power of making Doombots, Mishra has less options left to pick from. And while, to some degree, different people have different preferences for how games should be run, the kind of people who do enjoy narrative mechanics are generally not kicked in the stomach by mechanics that don't emulate narrative conventions (like, say, having the Doombot be something you have to prepare in advance), but to the kind of people who don't enjoy narrative mechanics will find their enjoyment diminished by their inclusion, if only because it means they get a dozen Charms less than everyone else to play with.

So it can be helped. It can be helped by making a game that, simply put, has a wider appeal. And this isn't some grand-scale "dumb it down"-thing, since we're talking about the third edition of a game here, and the previous editions didn't have retroactive narrative Doombots in them.

(Also, lawls, they're a year behind schedule, and writing unique niche one-use-only Essence 5 Charms is something they're actually doing.)

However, it is extras that cannot stunt, not NPCs, though an NPC stunting starts to get into iffy territory since the ST is the adjudicator of how much a stunt is worth.

A GM is also the adjudicator of everything that says "unless this would be blatantly impossible" and what the exact definition of "a creature with four legs" is. Stunts are covered by the rules; using Exalted 1E as an example, a 1-die stunt describes an action with sensory language ("I hit my opponent with my mace and it makes a loud clang.") without repeating a previous stunt, and a 2-dice stunt also involves the immediate surroundings ("I blackflip off a nearby wall with a 'thump' and hit him with my mace."). Unless the ST starts blatantly cheating or is always awarding his NPCs 3-die stunts, it's hardly iffy.
 
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Another random question.

Water Aspects are kinda cool, but their anima power is somewhat lackluster compared to the others, i.e. useless in non-aquatic theaters of operation. I would like to propose a new anima power for them.

In the same way that the Air Aspect anima power is a lesser version of Stormwind Rider, I was thinking that the Water anima power could be a less powerful but less restrictive version of Impervious Sphere of Water. The new power would be roughly as follows. I'll be borrowing text from MoEP: Dragon-Blooded and the White Treatise.
At the cost of five motes of Essence, the child of Daana'd suffuses her being with the power of Water, which functions as a weakened but less restrictive version of the Impervious Sphere of Water spell. For the rest of the scene, the Exalt's anima liquefies into a small globe of fresh, magically breathable water in which she has complete freedom; she is incapable of drowning, and suffers no environmental penalty for any actions she takes underwater, including such improbable actions as firing a bow or throwing a chakram. Unlike the one conjured by the spell, this sphere of water moves with the Exalt and does not prevent her from taking actions. Furthermore, the sphere of water grants her armored bashing and lethal soak equal to her Essence. As a final bonus, the Exalt can walk across the surface of a body of water as easily as dry land.

My concerns are that this power might step on Earth Aspects' increased Stamina, for instance, and that it could be inappropriate for Dragon-Blooded to run around with bubbles of water around them. If Black Tide Style from Debris of the Fallen Races is any indication, liquefying one's anima isn't unique. In fact, that's where I got the inspiration to do something a little different. Thoughts?
 
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