You know what? Let's just drop the subject on CBT. This argument is a roundabout with people restating their points, and I'd rather we not bring the mods in, which seems to be the direction this argument is going.
 
Note the lack of "willing" here. This charm is contentious because it shows the devs writing things their ass can't cash because sex is a very intimate topic and almost all the time writing about sex is juvenile. And even at its best it's not exactly a good mature charm because James Bond is preeeeeetty rapey in the first place.
And if it's a case of poor wording, and they amend it "willing" in future revisions, if they don't just cut it right out?

/Is just curious.
 
And if it's a case of poor wording, and they amend it "willing" in future revisions, if they don't just cut it right out?

/Is just curious.
Then honestly? It's still not a very good Charm, because it's too niche and specific, and inferior to the Charm suggested some way up-thread that lets you amplify any emotional effect (or even any positive emotional effect) for the same mechanical benefit, which means you can get the same result out of going ice-skating together, or throwing someone a party, or going bar-crawling or whatever.

Making a Charm that's all about how you're SO GOOD AT SEX and can make your partner ORGASM SO HARD is so puerile you can almost hear the teenage sniggering of the people writing it.
 
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Sorry if this isn't quite the right venue, but I just finished reading the leaked documents and I needed somewhere to share and they've already been getting brought up a lot.

(Worth noting in mentioning CBT is that that Penultimate Unity of Form+Celestial Bliss Trick lets use use CBT with say, a political speech rather than sex. This is really really weird and probably far far more immature than the base effect by itself. This kind of transference is the only reason Penultimate Unity of Form exists.(though most examples wouldn't be so... ) So the thought that the devs/prior playtesting editions/etc missed this is somewhat inconceivable.

Also worth noting is that most performance charms are limited to one kind of performance now. IE: you have speech charms and music charms and dancing charms and sex charms and without using Penultimate Unity of Form they are not cross-applicable. So it's not simply a case of the one sex charm standing out as very limited, but a question of 'why is there a sex subtree in performance?' )



Anyway read through the documents. There's some stuff that felt iffy and some amazing stuff.

The worst thing was probably craft. I love the idea of playing a crafter and had some fun with it in 2e (kinda 'breaking Creation now' fun at times but still....)

Here... the core craft system before charms feels a bit off. I might be misreading it but it seems like you need to make a ton of meh items to make some decent items to make some artifacts to make one NA artifact. Except if you don't make your artifact fast enough you lose all your progress (and the craft XP spent on it), and for some artifact plans you made, can never ever try to make that item again.

It really reminds me of MMO crafts in a not-good way. But it's the newest part of the playtest and therefore probably the most in flux. It's also a bit better than that summary suggests in terms of what precisely gives you different tiers of craft XP. It's also probable that the number of artifacts is being dropped relative to 2e and that they're more special, so the huge investment to make one might be more justified.

Doctor Doom charm( and most of the craft trees feels)really gimmicky and facepalm worthy, but it'll probably get revised some at least. (Worth noting is that the cost is huge. 30wxp is about half an NA artifact's worth of work though, or more depending on charm set ups. Obtaining that much is potentially years of IC crafting work down the drain at once. Haven't really crunched the numbers on how fast a min-maxed crafter can build it up.)

There are so many "Take double 9s for 3m on this one kind of roll" charms in every ability that it really feels speed bumpy, especially since they took excellencies away as prerequisites for things and then made so many entry level charms "Take double 9s". Same with the "Once per whatever get one free full excellency" charms.

Still, easy to house-rule those away as prereqs so it's a smallish gripe. Worst is probably performance where there's a "take double 9s while speechifying" charm a "take double 9s while singing" charm, etc that basically do the same thing for slightly different areas of the same ability. The goal seems to be to make people define their niche more narrowly, but given how boring the charms are I can't feel satisfied with this kind of charm-tree design (no xp but it is likely that charms are a smaller investment than in 2e).

Charms on the whole are smaller and less distinct. BUT There's still a lot of awesome thematic charms that are core huge effects, not just the mass of "reroll every six you get" which feels kind of gimmicky and obfuscates probability calculations to hell and back when you have five such effects on the same roll.

It feels like a lot of charms are made to work together which means you'll need more charms to do the same thing. IE: You don't add one craft charm to get successes, you use your excellency and then ten small effects that each give you something like "reroll every 1 on your dice until no ones appear" "Take double 8s" "Add No general XP rules that I could find so it's hard to compare, but it seems like most characters will have more charms at any XP level.

Okay, that's my 3e ruined everything forever whining done.

Now:

Destiny Manifesting Method is the sexiest thing I've seen regarding Shaping Defense ever. This strikes me as such a massive improvement over 2e that I'm begging my gms to let me swap in that and one other charm as part of 2e even though it won't work as well probably. (Destiny Manifesting Method and Phoenix Renewal Tactics are pretty much the fix to shaping. Not that shaping is a thing.) (What's SV's stance on spoiling the leak stuff. I really want to spoil this because it's awesome and made me like 3e.)

There's also a socialize charm tree that gives you multiple personalities each with their own abilities and memories who can go and learn different charms. It's a hellish amount of bookkeeping and there are some parts of it that seem like they'd be hell to use in session but it's definitely there and cool and distinct as a thing. (Does really feel more 2e Infernalish than 'solarish' to me though, but it's still neat). Let's talk about some of these.




Essentially I'd say that of a 300+ page document with a very different rules paradigm the things that jump out are often the worst or the most different. Even with the full ruleset, things like XP are missing as are artifact rules. This means that evaluating the difficulties here/speed-bumpiness of various charmsets, etc is a bit tricky and will probably need to wait for the full product.

Especially for people just seeing bits and parts of the leak, I'd say that there is a lot of good there too. A lot of the bad is in flux or isn't as bad as it looks in isolation.

Honestly though, aside from a few areas (craft) I'm far more optimistic and eager to see 3e than before I saw the leak.

Edit: Also CBT, while something I hope goes away, isn't as bad as it looks once you see the full rules. There are at least 3-4 places where the writers went to great lengths to say "If this creeps out a player it doesn't work." or "Anything which makes a player uncomfortable is an unacceptable order." The 'red rule' shows that, while the sex charms are included and didn't really need to be, the writers were aware of issues people might have about them and did at least try to take these into account.

In short, while I don't like that the content is there, that's one charm taken away from the relevant sections which strive to acknowledge that a lot of people might have trouble with that kind of content and which went a long way to soften the blow, at least for me.
 
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Thank you, shadell, for sharing things that will almost surely calm future discussions.

Also: Curse you, Shadell, for increasing threefold my need of finding and reading the Spoilers.
Luckily your reveal that the Craft rules will be probably rewritten has decreased it roughly by half, so it is only 1,5 times greater than before.

... Still, a little question: are charms using two abilties relatively common, or only the strongest have this peculiarity? I need to know it, because tomorrow i am starting finally my Fan Exalted project, and it will probably use it heavily.

I am undecided on what exactly posting between preliminary versions of the Description of castes, the story of the Splat/patron, or what i want to do with the charms, so if someone care he/she can suggest me what to post.
 
... Still, a little question: are charms using two abilties relatively common, or only the strongest have this peculiarity? I need to know it, because tomorrow i am starting finally my Fan Exalted project, and it will probably use it heavily.

My best guess? It can happen when Sorcery or Martial Arts are involved because they operate outside native charm structures, but it's less likely to happen when dealing with native charms.
 
The Twilight reactor was invincible.


Aaaand that's the majority of the 3E ptesters for you.


Mindlessly regurgitating the work of their betters.

No critical thinking.

No ability to analyze cause and effect in depth.

Inability to detect outliers.

And to top it off, spewing insults as if their "skill" with profane words would somehow make up for their shortcomings in Math.
 
As for this Hardness clause making Twilights a better choice for combat than Dawns... Look, I get it. You don't have the full system. The Dawn Anima is very much tied to the specific abstract mechanics of combat. It's all right: you don't know and you're working from wild guesses and assumptions. It's okay.

The Dawn Caste is terrifying.


Don't sweat it.
 
emeraldstreak:..... why are you answering in an inflamatory manner at a two days old post?
 
emeraldstreak is something of a known name in the community. He considers "the playtesters" (a nebulous group whose identities he does not actually know) to have subpar ability to assess mechanics and to basically be incompetent crunchers; he bases this judgement on his ability to exploit second edition rules in order to create an invincible über-mortal that can take down Solars.

Needless to say, his opinions are not taken very seriously.
 
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emeraldstreak is something of a known name in the community. He considers "the playtesters" (a nebulous group whose identities he does not actually know) to know nothing of the mechanics; he bases this judgement on his ability to exploit second edition rules in order to create an invincible über-mortal that can take down Solars.

Needless to say, his opinions are not taken very seriously.
How exactly does this 'uber-mortal' work, and what stops Solars from doing the same thing but betterer?
 
emeraldstreak is something of a known name in the community. He considers "the playtesters" (a nebulous group whose identities he does not actually know) to have subpar ability to assess mechanics and to basically be incompetent crunchers; he bases this judgement on his ability to exploit second edition rules in order to create an invincible über-mortal that can take down Solars.

Needless to say, his opinions are not taken very seriously.


Oh, come on. I understand the workings of many games well enough to create whatever stunningly amazing things I fancy. Singling out just 2E and just mortals is an epic understatement.
 
Well this is an Exalted thread, so specifying Exalted make the discussion more on topic.
 
How exactly does this 'uber-mortal' work, and what stops Solars from doing the same thing but betterer?
Oh, you know, standard stuff. Gargantuan + Immortal Flesh + Brutal Attack + Ancestor Sash is the basic chassis, Yasal crystals provide Charms, flavor to taste with TMA and sorcery, first dots of all Dragon King Dark Paths, sundry other mutations and benefits.
 
Oh, you know, standard stuff. Gargantuan + Immortal Flesh + Brutal Attack + Ancestor Sash is the basic chassis, Yasal crystals provide Charms, flavor to taste with TMA and sorcery, first dots of all Dragon King Dark Paths, sundry other mutations and benefits.
Wonder what the BP/XP budget is for something like that.
 
I'm interested in hearing this too.

You seem rather full of yourself.


One thing you learn when writing about mechanics in games (true for ttrpg and in general) is that the masses will remember the most shocking examples you give whereas the few who are already advanced will focus on the less flashy posts that reveal the principles of the system.

This is not a bad thing though. Shocking examples are great to dispel false beliefs that hold people back; a free mind is the first step to progress.

The mortal in question was a showcase of many (but not all) mortal empowering venues. On a grander level he was a demonstration of the concept that the power of beings in 2E is best represented as vast bands; with the "strongest" extremes of the lesser beings overlapping the "weaker" part of the Celestials' bands.

That said, other posts of mine like the comparison between a Solar Hero Stylist and a Solar Meleeist or my comments on 2.0 vs 2.5 reveal far more on the principles of 2E or the correct way to approach game system analysis in general.

Finally, none of these are what I'd consider exhaustive take on the system and represent only a fraction of my knowledge of 2E, which in itself is a tiny fraction of what game systems I know.


PS. I try to be humbler.
 
Oh, you know, standard stuff. Gargantuan + Immortal Flesh + Brutal Attack + Ancestor Sash is the basic chassis, Yasal crystals provide Charms, flavor to taste with TMA and sorcery, first dots of all Dragon King Dark Paths, sundry other mutations and benefits.
So an incredibly long and unlikely series of events that no Storyteller would let a player ever use except as a test of mechanics.
 
Wonder what the BP/XP budget is for something like that.

Less than the Perfect of Paragon.

Now, I did not come here for mortals. I'm here to test Theion's claims that:

1) there are no people outside the playtest that have better grasp of mechanics than the people participating
2) that the Twilight Reactor was at some point "invincible" and, among presumably other invicibilty metrics, could take on unlimited number of Dragon-Blooded.

Since I don't doubt Theion's assessment I'm sure the playtesters will provide us with an invincible Twilight Reactor build momentarily. Also, it's not that they have anything to worry about as I'm only good at optimizing mortals with mutations, as Omicron noted.
 
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