Oh get off your high horse dude. I'd be a lot more willing to give you the time of day about your critiques of the material if your perspective was merely negative or different to mine - I disagree with Gazetteer about the game fairly often, for instance. The difference is Gaz actually reads and has a pretty solid understanding of the material, so where we disagree that disagreement arises from our different perspectives on and desires of what has actually been written, rather than the TTRPG equivalent of that Making Up A Guy To Get Mad At post. This isn't an Exalted thread problem, this is a Sanctaphrax problem.
The thing is, you're giving me more than the time of day. You're actually giving me a decent chunk of your day, and you seem so unhappy about it! If it makes you upset, why do it?
The supposed issue at hand here - whether that's a good prereq chain - seems pretty straightforward. It's not, but whatever. It's hardly the end of the world if an appealing Charm requires some semi-related Charms with niche or generally unappealing effects.
So why is that, in Ryang's long and mostly-positive reaction, that was the one bit that earned a response? You can't put that on me; I wasn't involved until I pointed out how weak that response was.
And for what it's worth, despite not backing Exalted Kickstarters anymore, I do still read the material. I like to think I understand it too.
One of the things I'm really noticing, and appreciating, about the way the Alchemical charmset seems to be designed, based on the six/nine Attributes we have gotten a look at so far, is that they're in very direct conversation with the specific Castes, their themes, and their functions.
This is fairly different from Lunars, where each Caste is associated with one third of the physical/social/mental attribute split, and you get a fair amount of flexibility to mix and match between them. Lunars pick 2/3 of their Caste Attributes, and then assign two more Attributes as Favoured, Casteless give up the former in exchange for a discount on non-favoured charm purchases. As such, you can certainly see some charms and charm trees that are more closely thematically tied to one of the Castes or the other, but they're a purposefully very flexible Exalt type where you're given a lot of latitude (too much, arguably, one of the more common criticisms of the Lunar charmset is intense choice paralysis).
Alchemicals get all three of the Caste Attributes associated with their Caste, and then only get one other attribute as favoured. There's nothing really stopping you from branching out into non-Caste/Favoured attributes, especially considering how dirt cheap native Alchemical charms are compared to everyone else's, but path of least resistance is to invest heavily into at least a couple of your Caste attributes. As such, the charms seem to be designed with this in mind. Each Attribute is shared by exactly two Alchemical Castes, and you can feel the presence of both in each, and look at the places where they overlap. It's been pretty interesting so far, I think.
So, let's take the Charisma (Influence) charm tree, since that's something we're already talking about. Charisma is shared as a Caste Attribute by the Orichalcum Caste and the Jade Caste.
Article:
Orichalcum Castes are trailblazers, innovators, and paragons of physical might, always pushing the boundaries of what is possible. Few can rival them in their brilliance, their political acumen, and their devastating martial force. But despite their genius, despite their glory, they do not rule. They exist to show the Eight Nations the way forward, not to force them down that path.
The Flames of Autochthon can only be ignited by heroic souls distinguished by visionary brilliance, larger-than-life ambitions, or unwavering conviction. In one life, they might have been a Theomachracy cleric who instituted sweeping doctrinal reforms. In another, the charismatic leader of a mass strike of the Populat that forced major concessions from the Tripartite Assembly. Before that, an engineer whose breakthroughs in design brought about technological revolution.
[...]
Caste Attributes: Orichalcum Castes are forceful beings in every respect: immensely strong, confident
and brilliant without measure, and undeniably awe-inspiring. Their Caste Attributes are Charisma,
Intelligence, and Strength.
Sobriquets: Archons, Flames of Autochthon, Radiant Ones, Utopias (metropoli).
Concepts: Ambassador to the Octet, brilliant general, champion athlete, eccentric artificer, military
ethicist, philosophical luminary, prophet of the Great Maker, renowned orator, utopian visionary, weapon engineer.
Article:
Jade Castes are heroes of industry, leading work crews on enormous publics works projects and putting the social policies and economic planning of the Tripartite into action in the face of difficult realities. The Arbiters aren't afraid to get their hands dirty — whether it's taking on ten work shifts, using their bare hands in place of a malfunctioning triphammer, or walking through molten slag to reach the shut-off, they see that the work is done. Other Jade Castes devote their efforts to mediating conflicts, drilling metropolitan defense forces, and leading Populat volunteers on gremlin raids.
Compassion, duty, and self-sacrifice are the foundation upon which a Jade Caste's Exaltation is raised. Her heroic soul's past life might have been an engineer who sealed herself in with a deadly gas leak to stop it spreading any further. A soldier who exposed herself to enemy fire time and time again to rescue wounded comrades. A factory worker who ensured that no shift went uncovered, taking on extra work again and again to keep her fellow laborers from exhausting themselves.
[...]
Caste Attributes: Jade Castes are tireless and tenacious Champions, whether leading work crews or commanding Populat militias in battle. Their Caste Attributes are Charisma, Stamina, and Wits.
Sobriquets: Arbiters, Hammers of Autochthon, Stone Hands, Bastions (metropoli).
Concepts: Advocate for the Populat, beloved performer, charismatic morale officer, dedicated peacemaker, even-tempered mediator, folk hero, guardian of the community, labor czar, shock worker, tireless sentinel.
So like, these are pretty different in a lot of respects. Orichalcums are basically brilliant paragons who are tasked with inspiring the Populat by example. Jades are like, industrial heroes and guardians who are frequently tasked with working very directly with the Populat, helping to organise, assist, and direct them.
So if we look at these charms, a focus here and one of the things these two Castes have in common is like, mediation, avoiding and quelling conflicts, directing individuals and groups in a very direct, straightforward manner. Like, look at some of those suggested concepts above -- "ambassador to the Octet, renowned orator", "advocate for the Populat, dedicated peacemaker". I think if you look at the Charisma charms with an eye for this sort of role, it's not really surprising that they get a charm about trying to mediate between two groups.
Alchemicals are not supposed to rule over mortals, they don't lead the Octet in their own right, they are designed, commissioned, created by the state to act on behalf of their interests, and even if they deviate from that, this is the kind of leadership tool that they have. I think it's very easy to imagine many situations where something like Perfected Union Patterning is useful for them in particular, and the kinds of stories that their themes lend themselves to.
We have all three social Attributes at this point, and you can really see the difference in approach and themes taken between Appearance, Charisma, and Manipulation and the way they play into the Castes who they're associated with.
How often do you actually roll to improve a group's opinion of another group?
It happens, but not often.
...still, I worry that we're going down a well-worn and not well-loved path here. Kickstarter's on, feedback's good, then someone says something slightly negative about some aspect of the book. In this case, very slightly. And the thread, either unwilling to let the mildest criticism stand unchallenged or else desperate for something to fight about, then begins posting long defenses of why that rather-shaky aspect of the new book is actually Cool and Good. All other topics are set aside for as long as someone (me, more than once) remains unconvinced.
If we wanna do that again, I guess we can, but it didn't seem to make people very happy last time.
I am not going to respond to you further beyond this reply, but like, I think you are, in fact, identifying a pattern of behaviour in this thread everytime we get a new manuscript, but you're doing it in a frankly dishonest way. Like, you are not really giving criticism of the manuscript. You are not pointing out anything that is "rather shaky". You have no insight or useful opinion on any actual problems with it, because you have not read the manuscript, nor do you, seemingly, even play the game that this book is being written for. You are reacting second or third hand to takes on it in a forum thread, with seemingly the express purpose of making up a book in your head to be mad at -- or at least, to declare to be bad with very suspect reasoning. I regret giving your original reply even the small amount of attention I did.
I am not going to respond to you further beyond this reply, but like, I think you are, in fact, identifying a pattern of behaviour in this thread everytime we get a new manuscript, but you're doing it in a frankly dishonest way. Like, you are not really giving criticism of the manuscript. You are not pointing out anything that is "rather shaky". You have no insight or useful opinion on any actual problems with it, because you have not read the manuscript, nor do you, seemingly, even play the game that this book is being written for. You are reacting second or third hand to takes on it in a forum thread, with seemingly the express purpose of making up a book in your head to be mad at -- or at least, to declare to be bad with very suspect reasoning. I regret giving your original reply even the small amount of attention I did.
Ending it here is probably sensible. But for what it's worth, I tried to be quite clear that I was criticizing your defense of the manuscript more than the manuscript itself. Someone pointed out a minor flaw, you posted a very weak defense, I pointed out how weak it was.
Honestly, the book sounds good. I'm looking forward to it. But this tetchy defensiveness of every little detail really should stop.
Random question that just hit me. Do yall think that a Dragon Blood that grew up in Yu Shan would have a distinct accent? One of my players really likes their linguistics so I'm constantly thinking about this stuff.
Random question that just hit me. Do yall think that a Dragon Blood that grew up in Yu Shan would have a distinct accent? One of my players really likes their linguistics so I'm constantly thinking about this stuff.
They'd probably grow up speaking some kind of Old Realm as a first language, unless their Heaven's Dragon group speaks something else amongst themselves, so that would make sense to me. Whatever Old Realm sounds like to you.
They'd probably grow up speaking some kind of Old Realm as a first language, unless their Heaven's Dragon group speaks something else amongst themselves, so that would make sense to me. Whatever Old Realm sounds like to you.
One of the things I been trying to work on as a ST is figuring out how much info I should give players, and how. Like I ask them to do a linguistics roll with a diff of 4. They manage it with 6 easily.
But instead of saying 'Yea this sounds Yu-shan'ish'. I keep thinking of alternate ways to point it out as 'You hear this style of speaking mostly from gods'. Not sure if I'm giving enough there. But it does lead a fun hook where they might ask for another roll or put the dots together themselves IC pretty quickly.
But also for example, I ask them to hit 4 and they do a massive roll like 16 successes. I think I should lean away from broader questions and actually get really specific. Like 'This is a distinct accent you hear from gods from this department in heaven' etc.
Alchemicals are not supposed to rule over mortals, they don't lead the Octet in their own right, they are designed, commissioned, created by the state to act on behalf of their interests, and even if they deviate from that, this is the kind of leadership tool that they have. I think it's very easy to imagine many situations where something like Perfected Union Patterning is useful for them in particular, and the kinds of stories that their themes lend themselves to.
This is pretty interesting, and it makes me curious if there is some sort of Abyssal build made to counter leadership of this sort, as a way of dividing the populat against itself.
But instead of saying 'Yea this sounds Yu-shan'ish'. I keep thinking of alternate ways to point it out as 'You hear this style of speaking mostly from gods'. Not sure if I'm giving enough there. But it does lead a fun hook where they might ask for another roll or put the dots together themselves IC pretty quickly.
But also for example, I ask them to hit 4 and they do a massive roll like 16 successes. I think I should lean away from broader questions and actually get really specific. Like 'This is a distinct accent you hear from gods from this department in heaven' etc.
Sometimes words and expressions are region-specific. You could call out a specific term the character used, and wax lyrical about how it's only heard from some small sub-community. Would make the player feel like a true expert, I expect.
"Nobody calls the Scarlet Empress 'Her Redness' - except for Heaven's Reapers, who live in the Last Clutch of the Wood Dragon. Being entirely beyond the Empire's power, but slightly jealous of its great success, they have a number of slightly-mocking nicknames for the Empress and her relatives."
One of the things I been trying to work on as a ST is figuring out how much info I should give players, and how. Like I ask them to do a linguistics roll with a diff of 4. They manage it with 6 easily.
But instead of saying 'Yea this sounds Yu-shan'ish'. I keep thinking of alternate ways to point it out as 'You hear this style of speaking mostly from gods'. Not sure if I'm giving enough there. But it does lead a fun hook where they might ask for another roll or put the dots together themselves IC pretty quickly.
But also for example, I ask them to hit 4 and they do a massive roll like 16 successes. I think I should lean away from broader questions and actually get really specific. Like 'This is a distinct accent you hear from gods from this department in heaven' etc.
Yeah, this makes sense. Accents should be a tell, and given how divided creation is there should be some really weird ones handing around. Another possible tell, even if they go into another language, is having it be a really weird accent as well (if it's a PC of course they would need to be on board). Because the versions of languages that make it up t Yu-shan might not be standard ones.
One of the things I like about Exalted is that each of the game's splats are flavored around a specific archetype of hero (The Solar is the everyman, the Sidereal destined for greatness, etc), and while it doesn't outright deny the archetype, it does let you tear it down/subvert/ignore it. And I like to consider what each splat is, and how that can be turned into a heroic or villainous character.
Like... quick and dirty example, Deebs. Deebs are the legacy exalts, the nobility. On the positive side you are the latest in a long line of great heroes, with the finest equipment money can buy, and you have inherited the greatest empire in the world. On the negative, you're a privileged snob who tosses away the lives of those beneath you like used toilet paper, while yourself getting pushed around by your fussy mother who wants to know why you had two kids in 4 years.
Now, that's not to say these aspects are exclusive or unique. You can put these same ideas into the other Exalt types as well (a Solar can have a grand prophecy about her destiny, a Sidereal is practically obligated to have work left over from their previous, Deebs can be Outcastes) but there's an overall flavor to each splat that makes them unique even beyond things like their charmsets or their settings.
Alchemicals are very much the community exalts, champions of the people. On the positive side you have the champion of the people, the guy who gets his hands dirty right alongside his subordinates*, the genius who figures out how to make their work easier and lives better. On the negative, you have a cold taskmaster who whips his servants into working faster, because the efficiency of the machine is all that matters. The Inquisitor who cares not for your pleas, only that you slowed the great maker's gears.
... that kind of thing.
I am anticipating the setting details for Autocthonia and I need to read the second part of the charms manuscript... tomorrow, when I'm not as sleepy
*Yes I recall that Alchemicals do not technically rule, not the point I'm getting at.
