QafianSage
Ascending Ape
- Location
- United Kingdom
I am suddenly reminded of Monty Python, mud farmers and their opinions on wimmin' in lakes distributing swords.
General Exalted Thread
I appreciate how Ex3 took all the due effort necessary to unbind us from the shackles of internally-consistent canon, simply so we could finally debate ourselves to death on what exactly is canon anymore and make examples of those who aren't upholding the proper standards of up-to-date Dev-Confirmed metaphysics knowledge.
But for what it is worth, the thing to remember is that even assuming Exaltation WAS a divinely-chosen affair, the contest is already rigged. It chooses only hosts who are explicitly whole and hale, of sound mind, matured but still young and spirited. People who were Already well off in the scheme of Creation's tragedies, and it makes them better, not existing as some manner of universally-elevating force available to all mankind. Cripples, the mad, the elderly and the pre-adult are all exempt from the mere possibility of becoming anything, some not even Dragonblooded for their acts of heroism, and so it makes an assertion these people have nothing to contribute as Exalts and never will. Some only get in by becoming Abyssals and pledging to kill the world for its crimes against them, which is a whole layer of subtext to itself.
The setting makes some very explicit value-judgements on who it wishes to be its protagonists, and not recognizing that is a big misstep in looking at how Exalted handles (and judges) the distribution of power.
But for what it is worth, the thing to remember is that even assuming Exaltation WAS a divinely-chosen affair, the contest is already rigged. It chooses only hosts who are explicitly whole and hale, of sound mind, matured but still young and spirited. People who were Already well off in the scheme of Creation's tragedies, and it makes them better, not existing as some manner of universally-elevating force available to all mankind. Cripples, the mad, the elderly and the pre-adult are all exempt from the mere possibility of becoming anything, some not even Dragonblooded for their acts of heroism, and so it makes an assertion these people have nothing to contribute as Exalts and never will. Some only get in by becoming Abyssals and pledging to kill the world for its crimes against them, which is a whole layer of subtext to itself.
The setting makes some very explicit value-judgements on who it wishes to be its protagonists, and not recognizing that is a big misstep in looking at how Exalted handles (and judges) the distribution of power.
He turned back to Creation and is actively choosing his Exalts again, and he was the one who freed the Solars from where the Sidereals had hidden them "Beyond the stars." That's all we know, but given that it's a lot of action in a short period, I don't think it's inaccurate to say that something changed?
Again, I wanna be real clear on this: I don't think the Sun is a perfect moral authority, just, I dunno. I like the idea of there being an ancient, broken hero trying to do some good who saw something good in you. Not a messiah figure, not an arbitor of perfect justice. Just someone old and wise who understands how much trying and failing hurts, and who thought, hey. "Maybe you can do what I couldn't."
My ideal conversation with my view of the Sun speaking to a Solar would have the Sun pointedly shove all responsibility and agency onto the Solar. The Sun doesn't want to be responsible, doesn't want the world on his shoulders again, but he does want to see you be who he wanted those first Solars to be, so long ago.
This is well into headcanon zone, though. All we actually know is that he's handpicking Solars, and he took the effort to retrieve them from "beyond the stars". I'm very much talking about what Sol as a character means to me at this point.
"I didn't read anything about 3e or the things I'm mad about and am flailing based on hearsay and rumors about a man who was fired last year". You really have no idea what you're talking about. Mortals can still do cool wizard shit, they just don't get Essence pools without becoming something that isn't a mortal anymore. If you want to have laser eyes you can. There are robots in the core book, magic has rules, and the Realm produces Daiklaves in their thousands, and the difference is in the individual personalities and Charms of the weapon.
I look forward to how you will twist this into proof that daiklaves are pro-rape and playing a mortal Sorcerer makes your book combust.
Pro-tip: Before getting this insanely worked up, read the material you are complaining about, and don't misquote PR disasters from 4 years ago by people who lost their fucking jobs as proof that a completely different set of people are pro-rape.
Last edited:
what the fuck are you talking about. There are child Exalts, insane Exalts, and crippled Exalts. Like...I'm sure there's some horrible old White Wolfism ableism in some book that has you all angry, but this is not how it works anymore holy shit.
It is mentioned twice that I can find, once in the introductory story fluff where a Sidereal is remembering what her teacher told her:
And again in the description of what gods are:
So it is there, if you look.
Exaltations certainly favor young, healthy hosts, but elderly Exalts have explicitly been a thing since forever, with the Bull of the North.
Edit: I don't think that necessarily detracts from your argument, mind, only the absoluteness of some of your statements.
Last edited:
In 2E, DBs start to Exalt around 10 for the earliest.
Ledaal Kes allegedly exalted at 8, and is the youngest known.
- Location
- United States
I've come to the conclusion that having hard numbers al la "there have always only been 300 solar exaltations in existence, no more and no less (until half are corrupted)" shouldn't mean that there's only 300 exaltations, but that it should mean that the criteria necessary for a mortal to be worthy of exaltaing into a solar are so complex that there's only about 300 people in the world at any one time who qualify. It takes more than a fire in your belly to become a dawn, it takes more than a righteous heart to become a zenith, it takes more than wisdom to be a twilight, it takes more than cunning to be a night and it takes more than wanderlust to be an eclipse.
After all, the PC rate of exaltation is more or less 100%
After all, the PC rate of exaltation is more or less 100%
Azrael
Sakura Saber
- Location
- Throne of Heroes
The 2e core contains a sidebar saying that young able-bodied individuals are, if not required, preferred as hosts by Exaltations.
He was referring to Thaumaturgy, which was scrapped and replaced by weird special snowflake 'miracles' that have nothing to do with the old, much preferred version from 2e.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
rip in pepperoni cool and civil debate from before
well, it was pretty nice and then this entire page happened, but that's not your fault, i've generally valued your two cents
This is wrong, Yurgen Kaneko was going to die before he was Chosen and became the Bull of the North, both in 1e and 2e, and likely also in 3e so I don't really know why you're making this argument, especially when you're exactly the kind of person I'd expect to know something like that? In addition, I think it's kinda dumb to argue that lack of explicitly internally consistent canon is bad due to... a forum argument; that's not the book's responsibility, we're the ones arguing and it was honestly pretty nice to have the argument before, in my opinion. Nothing as a good and civil debate for different views, yeah?
well, it was pretty nice and then this entire page happened, but that's not your fault, i've generally valued your two cents
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
I wasn't aware of that - my assumption was that the Exaltations are autonomous because that way the Incarnae didn't have to manually hot-swap users for them every time a Celestial Exalt got splattered by the Primordials.
The Incarnate Rebellion was a charnel house where a single skirmish could wipe out entire civilizations, with both sides desperately clawing for the slightest advantage. Having their greatest weapon be able to redeploy itself without direct input would be a no-brainer, especially for something designed by Autochthon, patron of industry and innovation.
Huh. For me, being a Solar seemed much less... that. As a Lawbringer, you've inherited the sins of your predecessors (sometimes literally), cursed to know just how unspeakably far Creation has fallen from the heights of the First Age; your forebears were gilded tyrants and butchers, madmen who held the world in their hands and yet still demanded more. In a world without old age or disease, a world of peace and plenty, the Solars still warred and plotted and destroyed out of boredom, or ambition, or greed, or vanity - hubris such that a cabal of these "Lawgivers" tore open the tombs of the Neverborn, just to see what additional power they could squeeze from the dead titans' eternal misery, and none spoke out against their crimes.
There's a lot of dried blood hidden behind those Solar anima banners.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
I have gone looking, and insofar as I can tell, he was the fuck not. Seriously, I asked for a specific citation before, and this is why, because you know where that bit about Solars being imprisoned "beyond the stars" comes from? Yeah, I found it.
No mention of Sol taking any action, and the passage mentions the Jade Prison by name, so this whole 'prison beyond the stars' thing looks like just a matter of purple prose to me. So, no, I assert that per published canon, Sol did not free the Solars from their prison, and if you wish to prove otherwise, I demand chapter and verse.Exalted 3e p.23 said:
It seems entirely likely to me that the Sun is just... doing what he always did. Sitting at the Games, approving whichever Exalt candidate catches his eye (more of them now that there's more than a handful reincarnating in Creation) and going so far as to speak a few personal lines to new Zeniths. And that's it.
Also Dace. Dace was explicitly an aging mercenary before Exalting.
I was wrong, flat out. All that's been said on the Jade Prison break is "means not yet revealed." I have no idea where I got it from now, and apologize.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It was a bazillion little things that irritated me, many of which were more meta than themeatic, tbh.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Forgiven. Try not to repeat it in a year like that thing with the least gods.
I don't see how the fuck that was necessary.
The Bull is something like 60 when he walks out into the ice to die of exposure because he couldn't ply his skill as a hunter for the benefit of his tribe anymore, meaning by the standards of his culture he was a burden to them and cast himself out to insure they would better survive the winter without him. Him Exalting for it is generally treated as an exception to common-knowledge about Anathema and a surprise to everyone involved, especially when his age is a huge part of the reason why his rise to power is seen as seemingly meteoric. He's a dead man who came out of the literal middle of nowhere to lead a conquering army that clashed with the Realm and came out ahead. And generally-speaking, he and Krinstet Orr are the oldest Exalts we see throughout two editions who haven't been at things for centuries prior already, with Orr also being "old, but not Too Old not to throw a good punch."
In that bit there, I'm talking people in their 70s-80s who have well passed the threshold of reclaiming their younger years in any meaningful way, not retirees from cultures who make a habit of cutting out anyone who cannot meaningfully contribute to society. That Celestial Exaltation doesn't regard "useless" people is a big part of Exalted's anti-authoritarian streak, the analysis of corruptive power dynamics and who these circumstances favor, which pushes even those who have it to regard their suddenly-esteemed place more cynically than otherwise. Without the "why me, of all others" question lurking in the background, especially given the myriad other injustices throughout the setting, all you're left with is the wish-fulfillment angle which takes extreme expressions of violence and power over others and treats them as a net-positive worthy of no further thought paid or introspection. My Empire is the better empire than the Scarlet Empire, not because it is incorruptible, but because it was built by me. When Exaltation touches someone who is an exception to the standard, the question shouldn't be "so now All people like this are worthy, right?" but "why didn't this happen sooner?"
When that second question gets dismissed as a handwave, "it just Happened that way," rather than acknowledging that all positions of powerful influence and glorified strength are suspicious figures at best, unbearable tyrants at worst, even when it was handed down to the underdogs who would wield it to do great things for those in need, you end up with a game which undercuts its prevailing themes by being toothless on the matter. If Exaltation is free to one and all, but still limited to a select few, it gives breathless confirmation that You Were The Good One, the Chosen One, the One Who Mattered unlike all the chaff of history. And chaff is what everyone else becomes with that kind of ringing endorsement. Without that baseline cynicism of its own characters, it makes every single time the books wax on about "will you doom the world or save it" into meaningless paff on par with "your choices matter," because the only way you Could doom it is by failing in tests of blunt skill, not the tests of moral fiber and integrity which trip up all heroes from myth by one means or another.
Is there a way to make Exaltation more inclusive and encompassing to characters from all stripes and circumstances? I'm sure there is, and that could be a better game for it (some would even say that game is Scion), but you're not going to get that without gutting the critique from the text, and fully endorsing the ideas that yes, this is a game about mythic heroes without any of the actual downfall of those heroes or recognition of their unheroic traits. That Ex3 is trying to do that while still upholding the vague trappings of being anti-authoritarian is a mark against it for muddling its messaging, suggesting that hey, its not POWER that was the problem, just the Person in charge.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I uh, I don't think people reach 70-80 in Creation.
- Location
- U.S.
No reason not too. It's less common than now, but the actual maximum lifespan of huamns has been hit by people in every society, the only difference is proportion. In the Realm, Chiaraoscuro, Nexus upper class, etc. I would suspect a fair number get quite old.
I would however raise an issue I think people have missed with the issue of the Sun choosing Exalts. What happens if he chooses someone who...has no desire to be an Exalt, even if they fit the criterion? Then they're just fucked. That's kind of a serious problem.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
I'd like to apologize as well. I'm... inordinately enamored of the idea of Exalted running on scientific mysticism, especially with Earthscorpion's work to further wed recognizable RL concepts with mythology & folklore. I admit that I haven't read up on 3E - in part because playing a Solar isn't my bailiwick, and I'm mortally afraid of what will happen to Infernal Exalts when it comes time for them to be adapted - and I'm running off of dev comments from years ago when trying to piece together what the current management has in mind for the new edition.
Regardless, I flew off the handle and crammed my foot down my throat. Again.
Pretty sure they do. I mean, literally Psalms is talking about:
Article: Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
It's at the old end, but it's entirely plausible for the Ancient World.
Why is this a problem?
That's always been a thing, as long as they will use the power then it doesn't matter whether they want it or not.