@GardenerBriareus @QafianSage

Rewrote it, what do you think?

Fatalistic Minion Fanatics
Cost: 5-20m, 0-1 wp; Type: Dramatic Action
Duration: Instant
Keywords: Obvious, Shaping
Requirements: Essence 3
Prerequisites: Magnanimous Warning Glyph

The minions of Malfeas work through the pain, because they know it pales in comparison to what their king will do should they fail.

By spending an additional 5 motes when marking someone with Magnanimous Warning Glyph, the infernal may grant them access to By Pain Reforged and Scar Writ Saga Shield. At the end of a scene where the target uses these charms, all damage taken is upgraded by one level, bashing to lethal, lethal to aggravated, the unholy fires of Malfeas poisoning their body from within as it races along their chakras.

If the Infernal knows Fealty-Acknowledging Audience they may choose to spend an additional 1 WP and 20 motes when using that charm to apply the effects of this charm to all who he marks.


@ManusDomine please threadmark

OK, so this is my core problem with this:

It's very exception-based design that could easily be done a better way - and by "better", I mean "with less mechanical complexity and without having to give Infernal charms to mortals". Look at what you're doing here - you're giving people a wound-penalty reducer and a soak booster. And you're layering on all these extra rules to enable it. And making it super expensive to use it, etc.

But what you want to do here is create a race of demonic mutants who are stronger and tougher than mortals at the cost of being twisted and corrupted by Malfeas' hate.

By contrast, Revlid's mutation rules have the following effects, among others:

Article:
Regeneration (2)
The creature can heal entirely amputated body-parts without any medical care, as though each amputation was a single -4 health level filled with aggravated damage.

Tough (1-6)
Scales, fur, thick skin, a leathery hide, or a tough carapace increase the creature's natural soak by (M)L/B.

Natural Plating: Requires (Tough 2)
The creature's hide is supremely thick. The two-point version of this mutation provides the creature with armour that provides 3L/B soak, but inflicts a -1 mobility penalty. The four and six-point versions double and triple these effects, respectively. This armour is fused with the creature's body; it cannot be removed non-fatally.

Blade Proof (1-5)
The creature's durability, shield-like protrusions or misdirecting membrane allows it to parry lethal attacks barehanded without a stunt. The three-point version of this mutation also increases the Defense value of its natural attacks by one, and five points increases it by two.

Painless (2-6)
The creature is more inured to pain than most, ignoring -1 wound penalties from bashing damage. The four-point version of this mutation allows it to ignore -2 penalties, and six points reduces -4 penalties to -2.


These are mutations. They're balanced for use on mortals. Yes, if you apply them to people, you'll turn them into demonic mutants with flesh made of basalt or something, but that's just what a Malfeas do.

So why stack all these mechanical complexity when you could just look for a Malfean mutation-granting charm? For example, my old Weakness Purging Scar Tissue isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it's around the right ballpark and it also means that if you're Malfeas and you want to give your servants mutations, you mutilate them and then regrow a better version in their place, as per sadistic in his Excellency.
 
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OK, so this is my core problem with this:

It's very exception-based design that could easily be done a better way - and by "better", I mean "with less mechanical complexity and without having to give Infernal charms to mortals". Look at what you're doing here - you're giving people a wound-penalty reducer and a soak booster. And you're layering on all these extra rules to enable it. And making it super expensive to use it, etc.

But what you want to do here is create a race of demonic mutants who are stronger and tougher than mortals at the cost of being twisted and corrupted by Malfeas' hate.

By contrast, Revlid's mutation rules have the following effects, among others:

Article:
Regeneration (2)
The creature can heal entirely amputated body-parts without any medical care, as though each amputation was a single -4 health level filled with aggravated damage.

Tough (1-6)
Scales, fur, thick skin, a leathery hide, or a tough carapace increase the creature's natural soak by (M)L/B.

Natural Plating: Requires (Tough 2)
The creature's hide is supremely thick. The two-point version of this mutation provides the creature with armour that provides 3L/B soak, but inflicts a -1 mobility penalty. The four and six-point versions double and triple these effects, respectively. This armour is fused with the creature's body; it cannot be removed non-fatally.

Blade Proof (1-5)
The creature's durability, shield-like protrusions or misdirecting membrane allows it to parry lethal attacks barehanded without a stunt. The three-point version of this mutation also increases the Defense value of its natural attacks by one, and five points increases it by two.

Painless (2-6)
The creature is more inured to pain than most, ignoring -1 wound penalties from bashing damage. The four-point version of this mutation allows it to ignore -2 penalties, and six points reduces -4 penalties to -2.


These are mutations. They're balanced for use on mortals. Yes, if you apply them to people, you'll turn them into demonic mutants with flesh made of basalt or something, but that's just what a Malfeas do.

So why stack all these mechanical complexity when you could just look for a Malfean mutation-granting charm? For example, my old Weakness Purging Scar Tissue isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it's around the right ballpark and it also means that if you're Malfeas and you want to give your servants mutations, you mutilate them and then regrow a better version in their place, as per sadistic in his Excellency.
I'm actually explicitly trying to avoid mutations, as I feel like it's already been adequately explored. This is meant to allow the Infernal to fulfill the design space of a Warlock (in the dnd sense) patron.
 
No, I'd actually argue that it's pretty inherent to Exalted in a lot of ways, although I'd describe it more as a sub-theme of Exalted's approach to violence than a significant theme in it's own right.
Well, I mean, the Celestial Exaltations all carry a fairly strong feeling of doing something to earn the power. You can debate whether its really enough to earn it, but the tone of Solar Exaltation isn't "You won an unfair lottery full of power" it's "For your heroic and grand deeds, you've been chosen by the King of Heaven to save the world". Ditto Lunar and Sidereal Exaltation, though in different directions. It's about being chosen for a reason.
 
Your heroic deed doesn't earn you an Exaltation.

It buys you a lottery ticket. If there's no draw this minute, you die a futile death and are forgotten.
 
Your heroic deed doesn't earn you an Exaltation.

It buys you a lottery ticket. If there's no draw this minute, you die a futile death and are forgotten.
It's not a lottery ticket, though. It's a god choosing you, personally, for a higher purpose. Yeah, there's not enough to go around, and the gods aren't omniscient and seeing every possible candidate. But it's not a random, impartial thing. It's a "Yes, you, personally, are worthy of bearing my power and acting in my name in the world." When the Sun chooses you, he chooses you. When Luna chooses you, she's choosing you. It's not a lottery, it's not some impartial series of random chances giving you the power.

It's the decision of an ancient being of immense wisdom and power deciding that you, personally, are the best of all the options they can see at the time. There's no such thing as an unworthy Solar, all of them earned it, in that moment. Maybe they do horrible things later, but they still earned the right to act as the Chosen of the Sun. Maybe someone across the world that the Sun couldn't see deserved it more, but that seems like a pretty fucked up way to look at it. You still got picked over a lot of others. If you didn't deserve it on some level, you wouldn't have even been considered.
 
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And yet, if there's no spare Exaltation right now, you don't get to Exalt, even if the Sun thinks you deserve it.

EDIT: Hang on. I thought one of the design features of Exaltations is that they don't involve their parent Incarna in the allocation process, so that that Incarna could not be ordered to allocate them suboptimally.
 
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It's not a lottery ticket, though. It's a god choosing you, personally, for a higher purpose. Yeah, there's not enough to go around, and the gods aren't omniscient and seeing every possible candidate. But it's not a random, impartial thing. It's a "Yes, you, personally, are worthy of bearing my power and acting in my name in the world." When the Sun chooses you, he chooses you. When Luna chooses you, she's choosing you. It's not a lottery, it's not some impartial series of random chances giving you the power.

It's the decision of an ancient being of immense wisdom and power deciding that you, personally, are the best of all the options they can see at the time. There's no such thing as an unworthy Solar, all of them earned it, in that moment. Maybe they do horrible things later, but they still earned the right to act as the Chosen of the Sun. Maybe someone across the world that the Sun couldn't see deserved it more, but that seems like a pretty fucked up way to look at it. You still got picked over a lot of others. If you didn't deserve it on some level, you wouldn't have even been considered.
Yeah....

But then, it all comes down to whether or not there's an exaltation there, and also some.... choosing thing.

A veteran warrior, fighting in a hundred battles, can die to a demon he challenged, while on another hand, a relative greenhorn can win when he charges against an opponent army.
 
A lottery would be a lot fairer than the personal judgement of some overpowered prick. Especially when there's a real chance that said overpowered prick is outright insane.

I doubt it would have better outcomes or select more deserving Exalts, but it would be fairer.

Before wasting your time on all this math, you might wanna wait until we like, have any idea at all how Lunar shapeshifting works. Because if they can do something like turn into a hellboar, using all the boar's merits and their own dice pools way beyond what the animal has, and take the animals inflated health levels over their own, they have access to a merit that turns their wound penalties to bonus dice, discounting their Excellency (and the sample Lunars released so far all had a lot of -4 health levels, and damage enhancing powers that are completely mote free, meaning they can focus on their Excellency and accuracy enhancers while smashing you with animal merit assaults.

I really, really, hope that's not how it works. Because a Lunar can easily have dozens of animal forms, and each animal statsheet has, like, half a page of stuff going on.

I can tolerate a lot of complexity from this game. But Exalted character sheets are already ridiculously full of abilities and modifiers. We have to draw the line somewhere.

And taking on those merits isn't necessary. I don't need the ability to reroll 1s on Join Battle rolls against edible opponents in order to feel like I've transformed into a giant death-pig.

That aside, I'm liking the look of the Lunar preview.
 
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It's not a lottery ticket, though. It's a god choosing you, personally, for a higher purpose. Yeah, there's not enough to go around, and the gods aren't omniscient and seeing every possible candidate. But it's not a random, impartial thing. It's a "Yes, you, personally, are worthy of bearing my power and acting in my name in the world." When the Sun chooses you, he chooses you. When Luna chooses you, she's choosing you. It's not a lottery, it's not some impartial series of random chances giving you the power.
No, this is emphatically incorrect. The Exaltations choose, not the gods except possibly the Maidens choosing Sidereals. It's unclear if they choose them or if the Exaltations set themselves into the fates of certain people at birth.
 
And yet, if there's no spare Exaltation right now, you don't get to Exalt, even if the Sun thinks you deserve it.

EDIT: Hang on. I thought one of the design features of Exaltations is that they don't involve their parent Incarna in the allocation process, so that that Incarna could not be ordered to allocate them suboptimally.
Exaltations do not work at all like that anymore. The Incarnae choose personally, every time, and the Geas was never "You must obey every order, in spirit and letter." It was "You may not raise your hands to your makers."

If the Incarnae were ordered to stop, they would just refuse. You're mistaking late 2nd edition headcanon-turned-dubiously-canon for, well. Anything but obsolete 2e nonsense.

No, this is emphatically incorrect. The Exaltations choose, not the gods except possibly the Maidens choosing Sidereals. It's unclear if they choose them or if the Exaltations set themselves into the fates of certain people at birth.
Nope! Not how it works! That crap got thrown right into the garbage where it belongs! Exaltations are not extradimensional AI drones, they are Exaltations granted personally by the highest of the high.
 
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Exaltations do not work at all like that anymore. The Incarnae choose personally, every time, and the Geas was never "You must obey every order, in spirit and letter." It was "You may not raise your hands to your makers."

If the Incarnae were ordered to stop, they would just refuse. You're mistaking late 2nd edition headcanon-turned-dubiously-canon for, well. Anything but obsolete 2e nonsense.


Nope! Not how it works! That crap got thrown right into the garbage where it belongs! Exaltations are not extradimensional AI drones, they are Exaltations granted personally by the highest of the high.
You have an actual source for that?
 
You have an actual source for that?
Ask the Devs - Onyx Path Forums

Asker: The unconquered sun literally or metaphorically choses?
Vance: Literally.


Asker: If the former, what prevented the Primordials from simply commanding the incarnae not to choose champions during the primordial war.
Vance:
Cecelyne: Hey, Unconquered Sun. I order you to stop Exalting mortals.

The Unconquered Sun: Nope!

Cecelyne: Darn!


Asker: And what does it mean for a spat if their divine patron was rendered incapable of fufilling their duty?
Vance: This has arguably been the case since the Incarnae started playing the Games of Divinity.
 
The Third Edition core heavily implies it, the Ask the Devs outright confirmed it, yes.

Doesn't that imply rather than being a complete isolated and uninformed cokehead, stuck playing the games, Sol is paying enough attention to see the absolute shite state of creation.

This including but not limited to; the usurpation, the great contagion, the balorian crusade, abyssal/infernal exalts, and the various other 1000 dooms, and is content to sit and watch it all burn, without even asking someone to do something about it in Yu-Shan, while he goes back to play his games?

Or is it still pretty much an arbitrary lottery in the sense that you've got to be doing something awesome in that 2 second window between turns in the games of divinity, otherwise your legend is of the bloodstain on your oppositions boots.
 
Doesn't that imply rather than being a complete isolated and uninformed cokehead, stuck playing the games, Sol is paying enough attention to see the absolute shite state of creation.

This including but not limited to; the usurpation, the great contagion, the balorian crusade, abyssal/infernal exalts, and the various other 1000 dooms, and is content to sit and watch it all burn, without even asking someone to do something about it in Yu-Shan, while he goes back to play his games?

Or is it still pretty much an arbitrary lottery in the sense that you've got to be doing something awesome in that 2 second window between turns in the games of divinity, otherwise your legend is of the bloodstain on your oppositions boots.
it's almost like addiction, depression, and 10,000 years of corruption and millions of superpowered beings dedicated to keeping the corruption going aren't problems solved in a day, or even a decade.

Like, for serious. The canonical answer to the Unconquered Sun turning his gaze to Creation and seeing the state it's in was "Fuck no" and he jailbreaks the Solars and immediately starts Exalting people left and right.
 
It's not a lottery ticket, though. It's a god choosing you, personally, for a higher purpose. Yeah, there's not enough to go around, and the gods aren't omniscient and seeing every possible candidate. But it's not a random, impartial thing. It's a "Yes, you, personally, are worthy of bearing my power and acting in my name in the world." When the Sun chooses you, he chooses you. When Luna chooses you, she's choosing you. It's not a lottery, it's not some impartial series of random chances giving you the power.

It's the decision of an ancient being of immense wisdom and power deciding that you, personally, are the best of all the options they can see at the time. There's no such thing as an unworthy Solar, all of them earned it, in that moment. Maybe they do horrible things later, but they still earned the right to act as the Chosen of the Sun. Maybe someone across the world that the Sun couldn't see deserved it more, but that seems like a pretty fucked up way to look at it. You still got picked over a lot of others. If you didn't deserve it on some level, you wouldn't have even been considered.
Nah.

I mean, I've said before that I greatly dislike this setup, that I prefer the version where Exaltations are autonomous entities making their own choices, but assuming I buy into this premise... Still nah.

Because okay, the Sun is choosing Solars. Meh, but whatever. Except, he's choosing them from among whichever candidates catch his eye, and the Sun really doesn't have much moral authority to invest in his decisions these days, what with abandoning the world and his duties for several millennia. The Sun's 'ancient wisdom' isn't worth spit, frankly. I mean it's worth remembering that back when the idea that Exaltation's were autonomous entities choosing which heroes to empower was the accepted perspective, people still regarded the end result as impartial and fairly random, and Exaltation itself has a rather better claim to moral authority than some washed up spirit who hasn't been seen outside his pleasure dome in living memory.

Exaltation is, simply, a reward far out of step with anything that a human could possibly deserve. What, I dared to stand up to the Realm, and in a crisis of faith I shook my fist at a distant and uncaring god, so I deserve ultimate cosmic power? I'm a sellsword who pulls an unlikely win in some dustup in the Hundred Kingdoms, so I deserve the power to split the heavens and cast down the world's greatest monsters? I realise that wasting my life on vices and base pleasures bought from the proceeds of brutalising people in pit fights is maybe not a great way to live, and on that basis I've earned the power and authority to speak and hear the world obey? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Exaltation can't be earned. It's too big, too much. Yeah, the Chosen are, indeed, Chosen - but when that choice might have been different with another five minutes of glancing around at the heroic candidates striving across Creation, it's not much of a choice, and frankly, it shouldn't be. Exalted is not a game of divinely ordained heroes given a straightforward mandate to make the world a better place. It is, and has been, at its best when it is cynical of these concepts, when it asks how much a 'divine mandate' is really worth, when it questions the meaning of heroism and expects you to come up with your own answers, because there is no moral authority on high that can be trusted to make those decisions for you.
 
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It's not a lottery ticket, though. It's a god choosing you, personally, for a higher purpose. Yeah, there's not enough to go around, and the gods aren't omniscient and seeing every possible candidate. But it's not a random, impartial thing. It's a "Yes, you, personally, are worthy of bearing my power and acting in my name in the world." When the Sun chooses you, he chooses you. When Luna chooses you, she's choosing you. It's not a lottery, it's not some impartial series of random chances giving you the power.

It's the decision of an ancient being of immense wisdom and power deciding that you, personally, are the best of all the options they can see at the time. There's no such thing as an unworthy Solar, all of them earned it, in that moment. Maybe they do horrible things later, but they still earned the right to act as the Chosen of the Sun. Maybe someone across the world that the Sun couldn't see deserved it more, but that seems like a pretty fucked up way to look at it. You still got picked over a lot of others. If you didn't deserve it on some level, you wouldn't have even been considered.
Sol Invictus hasn't given a fuck about Creation for centuries; he's basically an emaciated corpse with its shriveled fingers clenched around his piece in the Games of Divinity at this point. If Malfeas broke out of his prison, redecorated Yu Shan with the innards of its residents, smashed open the Jade Pleasure Dome, and then went right at Sol's face with the Blade of the Yozis? Sol wouldn't even bother raising a hand to defend himself.

The "Unconquered" Sun is a tragic figure, a guard dog that shed oceans of blood because it just wanted to be free... and then discovered that the world is complex and uncaring, that the blood on its paws couldn't give it a purpose, that the world turned on regardless of what it did or what it felt, and that getting rid of the Holy Tyrant didn't prevent others from doing horrible things - and didn't stop it from having to either do the job it so desperately wanted to escape from, or deafen itself to the cries of the oppressed. Victory defeated him, in the end, and now he's a wretched husk of wasted potential and sadness. You can't go to him for answers, because he doesn't have them and he's given up on trying to find them. You can't rely on him to solve your problems, because he's been crushed by the knowledge that no matter how many times he intervenes, there will always be some other atrocity to address, some other cry for help that he has to answer, and drowned himself in the Games to cope with the guilt.

The Celestial Exaltations are completely autonomous - certainly, their decision-making is guided by the imprint of whichever Incarna donated power to make them, but the Solar Exaltations are running off of the version of Sol that was willing to shatter Heaven and Earth to escape the bonds of servitude, the radiant, brilliant figure who Theion declared would call him "father". Not the gutless burnout who'd rather let Creation burn than care. And even in those halcyon days, the Sun was already wearying of his obligations, and availed himself of the Great Maker's craft to lessen his burdens.

For all that, there are plenty of unworthy Solars. The Exaltations seek exceptional men, not good ones. Morality as we understand it was never a significant part of their selection criteria.


Nope! Not how it works! That crap got thrown right into the garbage where it belongs! Exaltations are not extradimensional AI drones, they are Exaltations granted personally by the highest of the high.
Oh my Elloge what the hell are you doing.

The entire point of the goddamn character is that he's a deconstruction of the Christ/YHWH figure you apparently want him to be. When the Solars call Sol Invictus the Most High, Holiest of Holiest, Shield of Creation, etc, they're stating a political/religious/personal opinion, not metaphysical fact. Him being a paragon of Virtue is a sign of how the Virtues are poorly named and tend to promote dysfunctional behavior.

Likewise, tearing out the mechanical guts of the setting and replacing it with a river of ~BRUCATO~ is lazy, reductionist, reactionary, and just generally a decision driven by either idiocy or madness. If Sol Invictus is not only some nebulous D&D divinity, but also a direct port of Jesus Christ, then you've failed utterly at doing Exalted justice.

If you're going to unironically Jesus up the Unconquered Sun regardless? Then pattern him after A.R.D.N.E.H.: a self-aware artificial defense network that fought an army of demons to protect mankind and ultimately sacrificed itself to destroy the demons' masters and thus secure humanity's future, and is now remembered as a messianic deity called "Ardneh" by the distant descendants of the people he saved. There. He was a swell guy who fought Primordials and didn't afraid of anything, and he even did it based on his own moral prerogative and not because he is GOOD-MAN, the Man Who Is Good!

(Seriously, the idea of godlike figures actually having to figure out morality for themselves is far more captivating than gods being born with a spiritual codex of How To Morality.)


it's almost like addiction, depression, and 10,000 years of corruption and millions of superpowered beings dedicated to keeping the corruption going aren't problems solved in a day, or even a decade.

Like, for serious. The canonical answer to the Unconquered Sun turning his gaze to Creation and seeing the state it's in was "Fuck no" and he jailbreaks the Solars and immediately starts Exalting people left and right.
Did you seriously just act like Exalted "canon" - the one with pocket dimension rape camps, Lillun, and incomprehensible proprietary crossbows - is something you can use to argue your case?
 
Frankly at the point that Creation is in the Second Age the best courses of action are to either get that homebrewed soul alchemist demon to modify the Dragon Kings so that each soul is a fruit instead of a seed so that hundreds more can be born from each death (get Ligier in too, shouldn't take that long) or somehow shoving the entirety of the Neverborn down the throat of that cannibal god who's bumming around in Rathess because Sol, Luna and the gang thought he was gross and didn't want him to grow powerful, hopefully letting them be reborn out of his newly Incarnae backside.
 
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Sol Invictus hasn't given a fuck about Creation for centuries; he's basically an emaciated corpse with its shriveled fingers clenched around his piece in the Games of Divinity at this point. If Malfeas broke out of his prison, redecorated Yu Shan with the innards of its residents, smashed open the Jade Pleasure Dome, and then went right at Sol's face with the Blade of the Yozis? Sol wouldn't even bother raising a hand to defend himself.

The "Unconquered" Sun is a tragic figure, a guard dog that shed oceans of blood because it just wanted to be free... and then discovered that the world is complex and uncaring, that the blood on its paws couldn't give it a purpose, that the world turned on regardless of what it did or what it felt, and that getting rid of the Holy Tyrant didn't prevent others from doing horrible things - and didn't stop it from having to either do the job it so desperately wanted to escape from, or deafen itself to the cries of the oppressed. Victory defeated him, in the end, and now he's a wretched husk of wasted potential and sadness. You can't go to him for answers, because he doesn't have them and he's given up on trying to find them. You can't rely on him to solve your problems, because he's been crushed by the knowledge that no matter how many times he intervenes, there will always be some other atrocity to address, some other cry for help that he has to answer, and drowned himself in the Games to cope with the guilt.

The Celestial Exaltations are completely autonomous - certainly, their decision-making is guided by the imprint of whichever Incarna donated power to make them, but the Solar Exaltations are running off of the version of Sol that was willing to shatter Heaven and Earth to escape the bonds of servitude, the radiant, brilliant figure who Theion declared would call him "father". Not the gutless burnout who'd rather let Creation burn than care. And even in those halcyon days, the Sun was already wearying of his obligations, and availed himself of the Great Maker's craft to lessen his burdens.

For all that, there are plenty of unworthy Solars. The Exaltations seek exceptional men, not good ones. Morality as we understand it was never a significant part of their selection criteria.



Oh my Elloge what the hell are you doing.

The entire point of the goddamn character is that he's a deconstruction of the Christ/YHWH figure you apparently want him to be. When the Solars call Sol Invictus the Most High, Holiest of Holiest, Shield of Creation, etc, they're stating a political/religious/personal opinion, not metaphysical fact. Him being a paragon of Virtue is a sign of how the Virtues are poorly named and tend to promote dysfunctional behavior.

Likewise, tearing out the mechanical guts of the setting and replacing it with a river of ~BRUCATO~ is lazy, reductionist, reactionary, and just generally a decision driven by either idiocy or madness. If Sol Invictus is not only some nebulous D&D divinity, but also a direct port of Jesus Christ, then you've failed utterly at doing Exalted justice.

If you're going to unironically Jesus up the Unconquered Sun regardless? Then pattern him after A.R.D.N.E.H.: a self-aware artificial defense network that fought an army of demons to protect mankind and ultimately sacrificed itself to destroy the demons' masters and thus secure humanity's future, and is now remembered as a messianic deity called "Ardneh" by the distant descendants of the people he saved. There. He was a swell guy who fought Primordials and didn't afraid of anything, and he even did it based on his own moral prerogative and not because he is GOOD-MAN, the Man Who Is Good!

(Seriously, the idea of godlike figures actually having to figure out morality for themselves is far more captivating than gods being born with a spiritual codex of How To Morality.)



Did you seriously just act like Exalted "canon" - the one with pocket dimension rape camps, Lillun, and incomprehensible proprietary crossbows - is something you can use to argue your case?
Third Edition has none of this. If you wanna bog yourself down with the awfulness of the past, you go right ahead. But Third Edition is a different story. There's no AI defense networks, no virtue system, no autonomous Exaltations, and the Sun isn't nearly so broken as you suggest. He's struggling, yeah, but so's everyone else. And when he saw how bad things got, he brought the Solars back, and he's keeping them here.

The flaws of the past are just that, in the past. I'm also not actually arguing TUS should be Jesus, either, but rather a depressed man struggling with a drug addiction via the lens of a mighty war god.

but you go on deciding what I'm saying and tilting against that strawman from your perch in 2nd Edition. I'm enjoying my lovely rape free Exalted Third, where crossbows are found world wide and all those deep moral complexities still exist, but with a lot of White Wolf's shitty teenage nihilism removed.

@Imrix I actually really liked your post and was trying to reply properly to it, but I haven't slept in forever, and I'm worried I'll accidentally get us into a fight, and I don't want that. I'm still bummed we're not on good terms, so just...I respect all the points you made, even though I don't fully agree, and I think there's still a lot in Third Edition, at least under Vance and Minton, that you'll find to love.
 
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and the Sun isn't nearly so broken as you suggest.
I just want to pick this point out - do we actually know this? 3e started out by pulling away from detailing the character of the Incarna, and to my knowledge has not walked back from that. Do we actually know the Sun is struggling to recover? Has there been a dev essay out there somewhere on who Conky is in 3e, and is there a reason I should give that credence as Official Canon?
 
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