How would one stunt any attack which ignores armor?
By rules, you can't ignore armor without charms, even with a stunt. If charms allow you to do so, you've got two options:
1. Stunts where you attack weakpoints and joints in the armor
2. Stunts where you just brute force your way through the armor like it's tissue paper.
Or if it's a blatantly magical attack then passing through the armour as if it doesn't exist is also a possibility.
 
What are the best artifacts that have impacts on actual societies, rather than just helping the person who owns the artifact in question?
 
What are the best artifacts that have impacts on actual societies, rather than just helping the person who owns the artifact in question?
IIRC Death at the Root and Singing Staffs can cause effects over huge areas, Artifact Mounts or Vehicles make travel much safer, anything that can preserve food is useful, a Rod of Verdant Minerals can be amusing, methods of communication over long distances change how people interact and do business, and methods of awakening Essence or archives of knowledge can have long-lasting effects on a societies future, especially if you can add to the Archive.
If you can locate or create a Manse that can house large numbers of people, and hopefully provide some necessities like food or water, well...
 
Greensun Demon Homebrew: Progeny of the Pearlescent Handmaiden
Demon of the First Circle
Progeny of The Muliariz, the Pearlescent Handmaiden

The Bozirenky were made in the shape of comely women dressed in the most fashionable dresses and robes, with too big eyes and whose teeth are fused together and pointed in a manner akin to a squid's beak and they are also capable of changing the color of their skin and their hair, which floats through the air around as if they were submerged, to any color and pattern possible; this functions both as a form of camouflage and as a tool of vanity. Their arms are bunches tentacles from below the elbow that are far stronger and more dexterous than any human hand and are quite capable of pulping a man's skull through a steel helmet. They are creatures of refinement and grace though, and will not use such direct violence as first resort, preferring to use the power rumor and gossip, along with the occasional curse, to undermine and destroy their opposition.

They are intensely vane and ambitious creatures; they will always dress in the highest fashions and are constantly seeking to gain influence in the court of their progenitor and the ruthless desire to retain their stature. This combination breeds a paper thin ego and paranoia, they are quick to be insulted, among their own kind they practice a strict system of manners and protocols that allows them to work their strongest magics without inadvertently insulting one another. In the event that that they are offended enough, they will not show any outward sign of offense, but will work tirelessly to destroy and defame their enemy with poisoned words and curses.

The role of the Witches of the Sea is two fold; they serve their mistress as both ladies in waiting who bow to her every whim and desire and as powerful practitioners of the arts, they are Scryers, curse layers and potion brewers. In the sea surrounding the island city of the Pearlescent Handmaiden, covens of the Bozirenky divine the future by charting the stars of Malfeas as they shine through the waves and sufrf, cast curses on their rivals and bless their allies and their mother-queen.

Note and Abilities:These demons are popular among Summoners and Cultists alike for their beauty, social graces, they are pleasing to the eye, well spoken and friendly in their own formal manner. They are also skilled in several schools of thumathurgy; most of these demons will know several different thumathurgy rituals relating to astrology, curses , potions and blessings. Most will know about 3 or 4 Initiate level rituals, 2 Adept rituals and 1 Master level. The oldest of their kind, those who serve Muliariz herself, will know much more.

The can escape when a young socialite is left weeping and suicidal from a public humiliation. The demon shall come to the young woman in her darkest hour and teach her the arts of the demon realm so that she may blight her tormentors with curses and demons.

Limit conditions: these demons cannot stand to be slighted, insulted or belittled in any manner, and they take a point of limit each time they feel they have been wronged in anyway. This can range from not being greeted properly, if they are not served food or drink in the correct order or quality or if they believe that they have been improperly addressed.

Demon of the First Circle
Progeny of the Pearlescent Handmaiden
They sit upon a rock in the open ocean, beautiful men and women with fishtails instead of legs, who sing songs so breath-taking and hypnotic that no mortal captain could resist the urge to sail closer to hear their sweet, sweet music. Then, once the ship and its enthralled crew is close enough, their features turn predatory as shark teeth fill their mouths, their nails grow into grasping claws and their song turns ear piercingly loud, stunning everyone who can hear it and the Shr'illioa leap onto the vessel, kill the paralysed crew, eat their flesh and drink their blood, steal literally everything remotely shiny and sell or sink the ship to use as a house below the waves.

The Melodious Lures are singers and pirates without peer in the demon realm; their simple but effective strategy has worked well for them over the centuries, earning them a reputation for brutality. They are, however, not clever creatures. Their method of attack is more instinct than actual strategy, and they care little for the worth of goods, so long as it is shiny. They have on occasion passed up loot worth a fortune in favour of a shiny bauble

As an adde bonus, their singing helps keep Adorjan away.

Notes: they see use mostly by sorcerers looking for a pretty consort with a sweet voice, but they are also exceptionally useful for guarding aquatic locations and as an aid for piracy, for even without singing they are fearsome fighters in the ocean and on the decks of ships, not to mention their use as entertainers.

They can enter Creation when a crew of sailors sing a song really, really badly when their holds are full of shiny goods. The demon slips through a crack in the world to silence the offensive sound and to claim all of their goods.

These demons gain limit when presented with a shiny object which they are then denied the chance to take it.
 
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The commitment is while the spell is active. But yes, someone who's into sorcery in a big way and keeps lots of effects sustained? Has to be loaded.

A sorcerous dabbler, or a PC on the move... well, they can have their daiklaive as their basic casting tool, use their familiar for utility things, and maybe make a spirit ally or two for more exotic effects. The background commitment cost, by contrast, really kicks in at the strategic scale, where your sorcerer-king has to greedily acquire wealth in order to lay enchantment after enchantment on his kingdom. It's basically the counterbalance for the lack of meaningful mote costs for strategic-scale sorcery - you pay with your Backgrounds.

Can you have multiple lineages? Also, can a lineage be forcibly taken? I like the idea of sorcerers being distrustful bastards towards because all of them are scheming to steal each other's notes.
 
Can you have multiple lineages? Also, can a lineage be forcibly taken? I like the idea of sorcerers being distrustful bastards towards because all of them are scheming to steal each other's notes.

No. One lineage alone, because it is effectively "Sorcerous Breeding" marking the heritage of your teaching and providing the needed incentive for sorcerers to actually go and learn from other sorcerers. Yes, someone who purely self-initiates from the Salinian Working will not have this built-in privilege. You want a teacher, so you can enjoy this background.

As for whether it can be taken, define 'forcibly'. What it requires is a chain of master-student teaching or power within your bloodline, that's reinforced by more and more ancestors (whether biological or chain-of-teaching) being sorcerers. If you captured a sorcerer from a notable school, took their family as hostages, and forced them to teach you or you'd kill their family... well, that'd work. If you could stop them from turning into a bronze-skinned figure with dragon claws and killing you, of course.

You can't steal it without teaching. Okay, well, I can think of a few ways (for example, carrying out a fell ritual to pull all the thoughts out of their brain and store them in a crystal that you learn from, or by being a worshipper of cannibal gods and eating their brain as a sorcerous spell to steal their knowledge), but you're still fundamentally acquiring the knowledge. Plus, by doing that you're making yourself a wicked sorcerer who hollows out minds and traps them in crystals or eats brains while praying to cannibal gods, which is behaviour I want to enable because those are things that villanous sorcerers should be doing.
 
So this means that there is an objective mechanical advantage to the Solar who disguises himself as a Dragon-Blood and infiltrates the Heptagram to steal the secrets of Sorcery from right under the nose of the Realm?

Fucking sold.
 
No. One lineage alone, because it is effectively "Sorcerous Breeding" marking the heritage of your teaching and providing the needed incentive for sorcerers to actually go and learn from other sorcerers. Yes, someone who purely self-initiates from the Salinian Working will not have this built-in privilege. You want a teacher, so you can enjoy this background.

As for whether it can be taken, define 'forcibly'. What it requires is a chain of master-student teaching or power within your bloodline, that's reinforced by more and more ancestors (whether biological or chain-of-teaching) being sorcerers. If you captured a sorcerer from a notable school, took their family as hostages, and forced them to teach you or you'd kill their family... well, that'd work. If you could stop them from turning into a bronze-skinned figure with dragon claws and killing you, of course.

You can't steal it without teaching. Okay, well, I can think of a few ways (for example, carrying out a fell ritual to pull all the thoughts out of their brain and store them in a crystal that you learn from, or by being a worshipper of cannibal gods and eating their brain as a sorcerous spell to steal their knowledge), but you're still fundamentally acquiring the knowledge. Plus, by doing that you're making yourself a wicked sorcerer who hollows out minds and traps them in crystals or eats brains while praying to cannibal gods, which is behaviour I want to enable because those are things that villanous sorcerers should be doing.

Hmm. In that case, can a lineage be improved by begging, borrowing or stealing the secrets of other sorcererous schools? For example, if someone has magic in their bloodline, could you boil them into a cauldron and distill their essence to drink such that you steal a fragment of the power in their blood to improve the power of your meager tradition?

As to the master-student/ancestry thing, I get it's a part of the Sorcery as privilege idea with those coming from powerful backgrounds having naturally more access to power/resources but...

Well, having it require a direct line obviates one of the major reasons for a sorcerer to be paranoid and secretive. There should be a reason for a sorcerer to be extremely secretive with their notes and work. There should be an actual danger to having your records being copied or stolen.

I suppose having someone's documentation shouldn't be enough to gain a part of their lineage but perhaps a bonus to countering their works or disrupting their projects.
 
So this means that there is an objective mechanical advantage to the Solar who disguises himself as a Dragon-Blood and infiltrates the Heptagram to steal the secrets of Sorcery from right under the nose of the Realm?

Fucking sold.

Look, one of the big things about the plans for this stuff is that it's cold-bloodedly built around the idea that you can get PCs to act in-genre by offering them bribes to do so. In my perfect view of a system, an optimiser and a roleplayer act identically because the incentives have been set up so the optimal way to play is by doing genre-appropriate things.

So, yes, I sure as hell want to incentivise Solars to disguise themselves as commoners and infiltrate the Heptagram just so they can be sweeping up during the lessons and listen in on them, and creep into the library so they can read the books while dusting the shelves, and so on.

Hmm. In that case, can a lineage be improved by begging, borrowing or stealing the secrets of other sorcererous schools? For example, if someone has magic in their bloodline, could you boil them into a cauldron and distill their essence to drink such that you steal a fragment of the power in their blood to improve the power of your meager tradition?

As to the master-student/ancestry thing, I get it's a part of the Sorcery as privilege idea with those coming from powerful backgrounds having naturally more access to power/resources but...

Well, having it require a direct line obviates one of the major reasons for a sorcerer to be paranoid and secretive. There should be a reason for a sorcerer to be extremely secretive with their notes and work. There should be an actual danger to having your records being copied or stolen.

I suppose having someone's documentation shouldn't be enough to gain a part of their lineage but perhaps a bonus to countering their works or disrupting their projects.

... you steal someone's notes and records so you can steal their spells and know what they're working on. And remember, technically each spell tied to a different Background variant is a different spell, and may be notably different. If you find in someone's records details of a spell that works by invoking the Yozis, that's very different to one that works by drawing on their title as king - even if both spells are mechanically Raising the Earth's Bones.

No, you don't get a rare prestige Background just out of stealing someone's notes. You do however get their knowledge. And can learn their spells. And also learn about their spell and pin down what Backgrounds they're reliant on - and find out that they've gone and tied all their offensive spells to their Artefact weapon, so if your Night Caste steals their staff before the battle they can't cast any destructive spells.
 
Look, one of the big things about the plans for this stuff is that it's cold-bloodedly built around the idea that you can get PCs to act in-genre by offering them bribes to do so. In my perfect view of a system, an optimiser and a roleplayer act identically because the incentives have been set up so the optimal way to play is by doing genre-appropriate things.
Ah yes, mechanical incentivization; the greatest ally of the game designer who wants to establish a setting tone without seeming tyrannical. And when all the roleplayers optimize, and all the optimizers roleplay, there is no difference between them; and they have become one and the same. Thus, you will have brought order and stasis to the universe and all will be discovered and all will be known.

How very Technocratic of you, you fiend.

So, yes, I sure as hell want to incentivise Solars to disguise themselves as commoners and infiltrate the Heptagram just so they can be sweeping up during the lessons and listen in on them, and creep into the library so they can read the books while dusting the shelves, and so on.
This, presumably also means that any enterprising Sorcerer will set up his own Lineage eventually, and that the Southeastern sorcerer Machiavelli, will write his book The Prince Lord, detailing how a sorcerer might better command the elements through fear, than through compassion.
 
This, presumably also means that any enterprising Sorcerer will set up his own Lineage eventually, and that the Southeastern sorcerer Machiavelli, will write his book The Prince Lord, detailing how a sorcerer might better command the elements through fear, than through compassion.

Well, just remember - just as Styles are made at least in part so you can notice that the scruffy assassin is using Fire Dragon Style and wonder how they know it [1], spells cast through a Lineage are incredibly distinctive. Anyone educated in the characteristic styles of various schools will be able to look at your characteristic Heptagram style and pinpoint it - and might even be able to tell who you learned it from, with a good roll.

Making a new Lineage means starting from scratch, shunning your old teachers, and casting off your old methods. And Lineages might be slightly easier to increase than Breeding, but they're really, really non-trivial. A new sorcerous school starts off weak, and takes a very long time to build up the required metaphysical weight.

That may sound unfair, but that's a hard consequence of the fact that the mechanics and themes of this sorcery rewrite is there to make sure that Sorcery Is Privilege. Hence, start-up schools are weak and lacking compared to the institutional behemoth of the Heptagram, which has "literally thousands of sorcerers have learned here over the centuries and we learn techniques taught to us secretly by Sidereals so we also invoke the power of Heaven in our spells".

Keris can't get any Lineage, because she uses her own personal bastardised part-Salinian-part-Hellish-Kimberyian casting style. She has no disciples and basically made up her techniques as she went. To even get to Lineage 1, she'd need a notable number of people to be taught and follow in her style - and that's not easy, because there aren't exactly a large number of sorcerers in Creation. Building a new school of sorcerers is a long term investment which means you'll probably need Dragonblooded disciples or to put a lot of effort in getting mortals up to Enlightenment 3 so they can learn your techniques.

[1] They're probably a Sidereal.
 
Well, just remember - just as Styles are made at least in part so you can notice that the scruffy assassin is using Fire Dragon Style and wonder how they know it [1], spells cast through a Lineage are incredibly distinctive. Anyone educated in the characteristic styles of various schools will be able to look at your characteristic Heptagram style and pinpoint it - and might even be able to tell who you learned it from, with a good roll.

Making a new Lineage means starting from scratch, shunning your old teachers, and casting off your old methods. And Lineages might be slightly easier to increase than Breeding, but they're really, really non-trivial. A new sorcerous school starts off weak, and takes a very long time to build up the required metaphysical weight.

That may sound unfair, but that's a hard consequence of the fact that the mechanics and themes of this sorcery rewrite is there to make sure that Sorcery Is Privilege. Hence, start-up schools are weak and lacking compared to the institutional behemoth of the Heptagram, which has "literally thousands of sorcerers have learned here over the centuries and we learn techniques taught to us secretly by Sidereals so we also invoke the power of Heaven in our spells".

Keris can't get any Lineage, because she uses her own personal bastardised part-Salinian-part-Hellish-Kimberyian casting style. She has no disciples and basically made up her techniques as she went. To even get to Lineage 1, she'd need a notable number of people to be taught and follow in her style - and that's not easy, because there aren't exactly a large number of sorcerers in Creation. Building a new school of sorcerers is a long term investment which means you'll probably need Dragonblooded disciples or to put a lot of effort in getting mortals up to Enlightenment 3 so they can learn your techniques.

[1] They're probably a Sidereal.
Okay, at this point I've twigged on an odd connection and I have to ask something about raising lineage after the fact, and how far it can go.

I'm reading that one can set up their own school to increase their personal lineage, and it likewise seems reasonable that one could increase the potency of the Heptagram's Lineage by expanding the size and prestige of the school, as well as just ensuring its continued survival.

Thus, at the very farthest end, is invoking science as an institution --- with the constant, mass scale exchange of knowledge among a vast field of practitioners --- a, heh, theoretically possible means for someone who wants a supremely potent Lineage? (Nevermind for the moment the logistics of acquiring that many millions of sorcerers, nor of herding that many cats.)

Conversely, realizing that a tradition of ten million sorcerers is also a tradition of ten million competitors --- all of whom can likely sustain at least one single, potent spell capable of ruining each other and all of whom can make just as much use of those manses, artifacts, elementals, followers, demons princes, and cults as you can --- would one be able to incite infighting, sabotage, and other backstabbing among members to reduce the potency of a lineage?

(I get the picture of the sorcerer and school-founder burning all his works, not out of some secret threat to the world forseen in the depths of knowledge, but because the mad old god-kings realized they had created something that could one day stand beside them in power, and realized that they wanted to stand above others much more than they wanted to simply stand tall. Personal power thus coming into conflict with common wealth.)
 
Molacasi, the Thrice-Maimed Artist
Demon of the Third Circle
Seventeenth Soul of the Demon Sea


Molacasi claims the shores and the shallows of the Demon Sea, and wades through the sludge and toxic waters, rooting out the offcast things of the Demon City. Exiles, rebels and those who oppose the status quo are those he favours. Snatching them up, he makes monstrous and provocative artwork from them that offends the senses and criticises the world as it is. However his bitter nature means that he now prefers to tear down than construct, and though his art is beautiful it is also vindictive and spiteful, made to break the human heart and ruin its onlookers.

Three times Molacasi has been maimed, and each time he - and his greater self - has been lessened. Once he was novel and truly original, but the years and endless affronts have rendered him much less than he once was. First, at the very genesis of the titans a great hidden fire burned him, leaving his skin blackened and cracked and every touch agony. Such was his punishment for daring to depict the true nature of Cytherea in his art. Secondly, in the early days of Creation he and the Water Dragon warred long over the nature of coral, and he was defeated. The child of Gaia won took the left hand of Molacasi as a trophy and snatched the West from Kimbery. And thirdly, when the Exalted won in glorious victory they castrated him and left him half the artisan he had once been. No longer could he create anew - now without his generative talents he could only repurpose that which already existed.

The skin of the Artist is blacked and red flesh oozes paint-blood from the cracks. He is built to a scale unlike mortal men and looms over buildings, with a reptilian cast to his ruined features. Two bright yellow eyes glare from beneath a straggly mess of long black hair that he wears as a veil. To the stump of his left hand he has attached a demonic horror of his own breeding which can take many forms. Most commonly it is a mass of tentacles that hold many brushes or sculpting tools. He does not cover his neutering, but leaves it exposed for the world to see the sadism of the Exalted.

Of the demon princes, the Thrice-Maimed Artist holds a special place of warning in the tomes of the Exalted. He writes vile books with salacious illustrations, paints lurid and perverse paintings, and produces idols of things that should not be seen. He gives these things to lesser demons and has them bring them to Creation. Too many demon-summoners have been lured into infernalism by one of his tomes of sorcery - for he is a fearsome sorcerer with terrifying prowess who has mastered the dark arts of demonkind in a search for a cure for his crippling.

In the four hundred and seventeenth year of the Shogunate, Molacasi broke out Hell with the aid of the infernalists of the corrupted Gens Benesa. Lamentably, by the time his incursion was noticed the once fertile uplands of the Renga plateau had been corrupted by his vile magics, bleeding his demonic paint-blood into the rivers and bringing madness and mutation wherever they flowed. Men and beasts had become demons under the terrible magics he had cast on the land, and the local spirit courts utterly corrupted by the Thrice-Maimed Artist's forbidden lore. In the end, Renga was purged with fire, Molacasi banished, and Gens Benesa was scoured from the history books. There are Sidereals who remember this tragedy, however, and they watch for his influence - and seek to maim him a fourth time.

Wise sorcerers do not invoke the Thrice-Maimed Artist, for his malice is subtle and twists his every action. Many sorcerers are not wise, however, and Molacasi is one of the foremost sorcerers of Hell, able to tutor a student in the art to a degree nearly unmatched by others. There are very few spells that he does not know of, and his artistry is such that he can trap spells in painting and books much like a Spell Capturing Cord. If his summoner orders him to, he will prepare an assortment of captured spells within his art that may be used by anyone who invokes them correctly, If compelled he will constrain his art to the standards of others and it is so beautiful as to make mortals suffer exquisite pain, though something of his nature always creeps in.

The wails of the censored artisan are prayers to him, and he can escape Hell when a mighty artist is forced to change their masterpiece to a lesser form at the behest of an Exalt or a god who is offended by it. His mystic potency is perhaps more alarming, and with his knowledge of sorcery he has prepared many false rituals and hidden tomes over the years and snuck them into Creation. They purport to be rituals that summon lesser demons, but if carried out they allow him entrance to Creation until the rising of the sun and give him ownership of the souls and bodies of the ritualists.

Notes and Abilities: Molacasi is an artist of flesh and pigment alike. His works change those who look upon them. Sometimes this change is in their mind, twisting them to the service of the Yozis, while at other times the change is in their flesh so they become another one of his artworks. However, his castration has left him creatively sterile, and so he cannot create anything truly original. He knows that he can no longer reach the heights he once knew, and his bitterness has made him cruel. Such resentment has corrupted everything he does and he cannot control it, so sorcerers must be wary when making use of him.

Molacasi and the All-Thing: Revenge is all that the Thrice-Maimed Artist lives for now; revenge against the Exalted and revenge against the Water Dragon. Actions that kill Exalts, Immaculates, and which poison the geomancy of the West to the aspect of Kimbery please him. However, he most wishes Water-Aspected Dragonblooded taken to him - dead or preferably alive. He is a potent sorcerer and when he has gathered enough of the diluted blood of the Water Dragon, he has long planned to lay a terrible working to blight the West. If a coven of Infernals were to be brought into his confidence, then his timetable could be dramatically accelerated.
 
Molacasi, the Thrice-Maimed Artist
Demon of the Third Circle
Seventeenth Soul of the Demon Sea

.

Another demon my group would go "we must heal the poor thing to the best of our abilities. Worse I don't see a reason for denying them except on the castration thing which is surely tied to the Oaths of Surrender. Still the left hand and the skin may be fixable.

Except if that under the anal-retentive interpretation of ""no backsies " but that's a given.
 
Chiming Minaret: "y do u haet mi?" :???::???::???:

Because Zanara's onii-sama is a big meany, and honestly only Haneyl has totally awesome and radical Yozi-expression-of-my-root-Charm big siblings with the Shashalme and Ligier being so cool. And also so hot, in Ligier's case.

Calesco: "They're both utterly terrible people."

Haneyl: "You're an utterly terrible person. You're just jealous because your big brother is an alcoholic who flies around the sky shooting people with arrows."
 
Except if that under the anal-retentive interpretation of ""no backsies " but that's a given.
No backsies applies to death and time travel. Healing maiming such as this is well within the overall limits of what is possible within the setting. Heck his wounds are a clear plot point for PCs to heal in order to gain his favor and possibly restore some of his better nature that he lost with his brutalization.
 
No backsies applies to death and time travel. Healing maiming such as this is well within the overall limits of what is possible within the setting. Heck his wounds are a clear plot point for PCs to heal in order to gain his favor and possibly restore some of his better nature that he lost with his brutalization.

I"ve litterally read a post by Holden telling that "freeing the Yozis would undo the Primordial War and thus violate the no backsies rules" so yeah some interpret the rule way too broadly.

Of course as my group are super-paladins Infernals (who end up dealing far more damage than they should), so that wouldn't stop them, their long term plan is still to free Oramus from his solitary confinement cell and damm the consequences.
 
I still don't recall getting a word, firm or otherwise, as to what sorcerously viable backgrounds were fair game for multiple instances.

like,I don't think anyone's going to complain about multiple Resources, Artifact and Manse/Demense. and 2e ally as written is very restrictive- you can have a total of five ally dots, ever, so you either have a handful of low powered allies, or one super-strong one.
 
I still don't recall getting a word, firm or otherwise, as to what sorcerously viable backgrounds were fair game for multiple instances.

like,I don't think anyone's going to complain about multiple Resources, Artifact and Manse/Demense. and 2e ally as written is very restrictive- you can have a total of five ally dots, ever, so you either have a handful of low powered allies, or one super-strong one.

Huh. I didn't even register that. I just automatically assumed you bought an Ally per ally, because... why wouldn't you do it like that?

But essentially, if the background exists as a discrete thing, it's valid to be duplicated. Resources is not, because a) Resources is the coalesced sum of your wealth, and b) Resources isn't a valid Anchor anyway, because "paying Resources for material components" is part of the activation cost rather than something you can anchor a spell in.
 
No backsies applies to death and time travel. Healing maiming such as this is well within the overall limits of what is possible within the setting. Heck his wounds are a clear plot point for PCs to heal in order to gain his favor and possibly restore some of his better nature that he lost with his brutalization.
But how does one fix the brutalization?

Healing charms/ salves? A transplant?
 
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