I have not read 3E, but that earlier one-liner about the person who has a problem with the Charm being the problem? That's a summarization of the response of the Devs to people pointing out that, by RAW, it doesn't have to be consensual. And, according to the massive argument about in earlier in the thread, they never changed that. It would take adding a single word, and people are really annoyed because the implications are really disturbing, much greater changes were made several times after that was first pointed out while this particular problem was ignored, and, of course, there were apparently insults from the Developers towards the people who did point it out. It may not be hard for a ST to fix it, but every time something has to be houseruled to stop it from causing incredible problems when NPCs use it in incredibly obvious ways, that just makes the game harder.

I don't want to go into this too much, but given you are not too familiar with 3E: first, there is a mechanic in place that explicitly forbids scenarios a player or GM is not comfortable with, called the Red Rule. There are no ifs ands or buts when it comes to this rule.

Second, I remember similar arguments over Apocalypse World when Vince Baker was faced with the argument that, because Sex Moves didn't directly imply consent, that they could be applied to unwilling partners. Baker became outraged over the speculation, and among other things said stuff along the lines of why would you even think that. There remained also the extra wrinkle that a lot of people arguing against CBT also made the argument that, because the rules only implicitly implied consent, it was not a player's fault if he chose to abuse an npc sexually.

The devs were understandably put out by this argument, and I honestly feel that insults were understandable when given arguments like those.
 
So, anybody feel like explaining what the shit a Wisdom Soul or Defining Soul are?
Each Second Circle Demon is one of seven souls comprising the ability of a Third Circle to protect (Warden), gratify (Indulgent), define (Defining), communicate (Messenger), express (Expressive), reflect (Reflective) and understand (Wisdom) their own essential natures, much like the way the Thirds illustrate the personality of the Yozi whom they comprise.

The divisions of these ranks, like Communicate vs Express or Define vs Understand, are extremely meaningful as it helps show the values of that demon-hierarchy in finer and finer facets and permutations, as well as how cognizant (or how blind) that Third Circle is towards why they think and act the way they do by how much their personality favors different souls more strongly than others. Alliances between these Seconds tend to be another layer to that, as even a seemingly weak soul in the terms of power might be backed up by several of its fellow beings, showing a kind of "unconscious bias" on behalf of the Demon Prince.

Its essentially a metaphysical form of Cast-Calculus as a means of internal organization and taxonomy.
 
There remained also the extra wrinkle that a lot of people arguing against CBT also made the argument that, because the rules only implicitly implied consent, it was not a player's fault if he chose to abuse an npc sexually.
I'm pretty sure that literally no one here made this argument. The arguments were more along the lines of "the text as written seems to me like it allows magic rape to be useful, and I find that creepy".

The devs were understandably put out by this argument, and I honestly feel that insults were understandable when given arguments like those.
The first insult by a dev here was when Holden resorted to "insane psychopaths" as a foot-in-mouth response to, er, one of your own posts, Deations.
 
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To move us away from the eternal trenches in which words are sent to die in either offense or defense of 3e...

So, anybody feel like explaining what the shit a Wisdom Soul or Defining Soul are?
Games of Divinity said:
The demons of the Third Circle, like their superiors, have multiple souls. Typically, a Third Circle demon has seven, defining her ability to protect, gratify, define, communicate, express, reflect and understand her own essential nature. This is the second step in the demon hierarchy: Each one of these souls takes form as a demon of the Second Circle.
Protect her own essential nature = Warden Soul
Gratify her own essential nature = Indulgent Soul
Define her own essential nature = Defining Soul
Communicate her own essential nature = Messenger Soul
Express her own essential nature = Expressive Soul
Reflect her own essential nature = Reflective Soul
Understand her own essential nature = Wisdom Soul


The relationship, however, can be really abstract. For example Octavian is the Defining Soul of the Ravine of Whispers - the Ravine is a chasm that consumes improper speech, he is a conquering empire-building general. The Ravine is defined by her ability or need to control other people.
 
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I mean, we just have to ignore everything about the Red Rule to make our argument, and we are super into bad faith arguments for good causes.

We just need more quality posts from our fellow SV members to breathlessly explain in detail the necessity of female genital mutilation in Exalted again, and we will have the ultimate forums experience on this most quality of threads.

You have declared that love is a dangerous tool of subjugation by Solars by declaring Celestial Bliss Trick a thing.

Why is it that a society which was created with the knowledge that:
1. An Anathema can pretend to be human;
2. An Anathema can seduce the righteous;
3. An Anathema is very very good at it;

encourage any sort of promiscuity? Especially given that Victorian Britain simultaneously managed an incredible hegemonic presence and was sexually repressed like fuck, which makes the pithy "Solars can do things via language, the Realm hasn't banned writing" argument pointless. This is a logical question when the Usurpation was a thing and there would have been-and still are-endlessly spawning Solars, some of whom may have this charm. Like okay, so I could have been better at expressing the point. But what you're doing is basically completely ignoring the point to attack a strawman.

It does. This thread's insistence on a willingly obtuse reading is incredible in its bad faith.

Yes, just like all those Solar Larceny charms from 2E which specified that they worked against the wicked couldn't be used to steal from the righteous. Notice that people generally dropped it when the devs stated that they weren't going to be doing that 2E stuff? Because the reading was how you'd read a 2E charm.
 
I'm pretty sure that literally no one here made this argument. The arguments were more along the lines of "the text as written seems to me like it allows magic rape to be useful, and I find that creepy".

Some people said that. Some people decidedly did not.

The first insult by a dev here was when Holden restored to "insane psychopaths" as a foot-in-mouth response to, er, one of your own posts, Deations.

But. But he was largely agreeing with the point I was making?

I don't even want to go back to two year old arguments just so people can try to score more cheap points with people who are otherwise unaware of the context

You have declared that love is a dangerous tool of subjugation by Solars by declaring Celestial Bliss Trick a thing.

Why is it that a society which was created with the knowledge that:
1. An Anathema can pretend to be human;
2. An Anathema can seduce the righteous;
3. An Anathema is very very good at it;

encourage any sort of promiscuity? Especially given that Victorian Britain simultaneously managed an incredible hegemonic presence and was sexually repressed like fuck, which makes the pithy "Solars can do things via language, the Realm hasn't banned writing" argument pointless. This is a logical question when the Usurpation was a thing and there would have been-and still are-endlessly spawning Solars, some of whom may have this charm. Like okay, so I could have been better at expressing the point. But what you're doing is basically completely ignoring the point to attack a strawman.

You don't understand. I was begging people not to try to make this point again.

Please stop trying to make a point about FGM, it was poorly conceived in the first place. D:
 
The relationship, however, can be really abstract. For example Octavian is the Defining Soul of the Ravine of Whispers - the Ravine is a chasm that consumes improper speech, he is a conquering empire-building general. The Ravine is defined by her ability or need to control other people.

It's actually more literal and direct than that- a ravine, a split in the land, is defined and given physical form by the land around it- and so, Octavian is a conquerer who seeks to control land.
 
To have fire not burn, the solution is to not throw fuel at it. :V

My current desires are, in descending order:
  1. To play a bit of Warframe.
  2. Go to bed, because holy shit, it's laaaaaaaaaaaate.
  3. Wake up and post some more hilarity from Chiming Minaret Game.
  4. Post Dragon-Blooded homebrew of awesome.
  5. Bugger @EarthScorpion to write me something.
    1. Presumably something that isn't literally six pages of waifus.
      1. Okay, the waifus were hilarious, I admit it you terrible fuck.

Oi Dono, the Paper Folder
Demon of the Second Circle
Indulgent Soul of Noh

The Paper Folder himself has the seeming of an old wizened man of the West, with a beard so long he must wrap it around his waist eleven times to avoid it trailing on the ground. Each of his hands have nine fingers, and he drives a wagon pulled by goats filled with his paper-making supplies when he must travel. He dresses simply, eats only plain rice and unflavoured vegetables, and drinks only the water he uses to boil his food. Lavish things offend him personally and ostentatious wealth prompts him to make paper creatures to tear it down. When he walks Creation, birds lay eggs with too-thin shells and dropped quills always point towards the Pole of Wood.

Oi Dono has seventeen shops within the Demon City, three upon the slopes of Qaf, one owned in the Nighthammer district of Nexus (which is almost always closed), and one which was destroyed long ago by Isidoros. All of these are but reflections of his true workshop, however, which sits upon the black moon of Malfeas and which has only ever seen the Contrary One as a client.

In these places, Oi Dono makes marvels from paper. With the right inks made from the ground up substance of the thing he is copying, he can make a bird that flies and sings, a manse that forms paper hearthstones, or even something that can pass as a human being. Alas, whatever he makes is still paper, and so is ruined by water, though he knows of special varnishes made from demon-blood that slow the process - though he claims they ruin the aesthetic beauty and so tries to avoid their use whenever possible. Naturally, he also hates fire in all its forms, for it destroys his work easily.

Sorcerers call upon the Paper Folder for his demonic mastery of origami. His paper dolls can replace the king of a nation or produce an assassin who will never talk under torture, while one of his giant paper birds might convey someone across nations. He is a craftsman, and even when bound he must be paid a fair price for his work, though he will take many strange things in payment to be sold in the markets of his cousin Marikos. He gains Limit when forced to witness extravagant or wasteful lavishness. Oi Dono can crawl forth from Malfeas when something or someone beautiful is destroyed to great mourning, leaving only a fragment. He will arrive in his cart, offering to make a replacement - for a price.
 
So my girlfriend decided that she didn't feel up to running our game tomorrow, which means nobody has anything, and so being that I'm usually the GM, I'm stepping up to the plate to run something.

I have a couple things that others have written that I could use to run a game.

1. A story set in Chiaroscuro, where a bunch of Solar pirates who've become infamous are subject to retributory machinations in Chiaroscuro.
2. A bunch of Realm soldiers and locals in a town under control of Greyfalls dealing with Fair Folk and likely Exalting as Solars
3. The Tomb of 5 Corners, updated to be less dumb. (Is that possible? Maybe.)

Has anybody else written up any kinds of adventure things for Exalted, any edition? Anybody have any good ideas or have some feelings on which might be better? My group does not have a fabulous grasp of the regular Exalted setting because our main game was the one that we retroactively placed in the world after it was previously a homebrew world. They're smart and able to pick things up though.

Really, I'm just scrabbling for ideas. Also good descriptions of what Chiaroscuro looks like.
 
Guess I'd better see what's new here before be-

I loathe CBT. I disagree firmly with Omicron over its textual meaning. That isn't even my biggest beef with the Charm.

Most gripes over CBT demands that a person diminish the Red Rule.

It's like, people are deliberately trying as hard as they possibly can to make the argument that CBT incentivizes rape, while simultaneously putting a great deal of energy and effort into poopooing the mechanic which was specifically put into place to prevent those scenarios. People try to give as much teeth as you possibly can to exaggerate one mechanic while simultaneously trying to neuter the one that's supposed to prevent the nightmare scenario people keep proposing.

In this context, The Red Rule is no different to Rule Zero, which makes this no different from a Rule Zero Fallacy. Just because you can ignore it doesn't make it not a problem; we can always ignore a rule or decide one overrules another, but the mechanics still encourage behaviour in certain ways.

Like here. I'm sorry for belaboring this point, but the Red Rule is not a rule zero thing. It's not optional. It's not a house rule. It's not something that says 'hey if you don't like it, change it.' Doing so is a drastic misinterpretation of what the red rule is supposed to be and what it is meant to accomplish.

The Red Rule is not something to be debated, or compromised with your group over.

If someone's boundaries are crossed, you stop. It's the Red Rule for a reason, not the Red Suggestion, or the Red Storyteller's Section on How To Handle Sensitive Topics or w/e.
 
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Each Second Circle Demon is one of seven souls comprising the ability of a Third Circle to protect (Warden), gratify (Indulgent), define (Defining), communicate (Messenger), express (Expressive), reflect (Reflective) and understand (Wisdom) their own essential natures, much like the way the Thirds illustrate the personality of the Yozi whom they comprise.

The divisions of these ranks, like Communicate vs Express or Define vs Understand, are extremely meaningful as it helps show the values of that demon-hierarchy in finer and finer facets and permutations, as well as how cognizant (or how blind) that Third Circle is towards why they think and act the way they do by how much their personality favors different souls more strongly than others. Alliances between these Seconds tend to be another layer to that, as even a seemingly weak soul in the terms of power might be backed up by several of its fellow beings, showing a kind of "unconscious bias" on behalf of the Demon Prince.

Its essentially a metaphysical form of Cast-Calculus as a means of internal organization and taxonomy.
Protect her own essential nature = Warden Soul
Gratify her own essential nature = Indulgent Soul
Define her own essential nature = Defining Soul
Communicate her own essential nature = Messenger Soul
Express her own essential nature = Expressive Soul
Reflect her own essential nature = Reflective Soul
Understand her own essential nature = Wisdom Soul


The relationship, however, can be really abstract. For example Octavian is the Defining Soul of the Ravine of Whispers - the Ravine is a chasm that consumes improper speech, he is a conquering empire-building general. The Ravine is defined by her ability or need to control other people.
Alright then, so I'm writing up a Third Circle for TDTSC (homebrew Yozi, search the thread for the acronym), and I'm now split on whether one of the Second Circles I came up with for him works better as a Warden or Defining soul.

Okay, so the Third Circle is called Orzevry, the Titan That Fears Himself, and one of his defining elements is a demented conviction that he's actually the most powerful being in Creation, to the point where his existence is spent constantly struggling to hold in every errant twitch and involuntary motion for fear even that tiny exertion will tear the Demon City apart and cast everything back into the Wyld. Thus, one of his Second Circles is a mass of chains, hooks, shackles, and blades that engulfs his form, restraining him, and when he feels an errant limb or digit is on the verge of unleashing its apocalyptic force, the SCD quickly binds the offending member, severs it, and then crushes it to pulp (for which Orzevry, weeping tears of pain and joyful relief, thanks his keeper profusely).

Is that a Warden Soul (because it "protects" him from his own imagined strength) or a Defining Soul (since it acts as a physical manifestation of his own fear and willing paralysis)? Be glad to take this to PM if anyone feels like it.
 
Oi Dono, the Paper Folder
Demon of the Second Circle
Indulgent Soul of Noh


The Paper Folder himself has the seeming of an old wizened man of the West, with a beard so long he must wrap it around his waist eleven times to avoid it trailing on the ground. Each of his hands have nine fingers, and he drives a wagon pulled by goats filled with his paper-making supplies when he must travel. He dresses simply, eats only plain rice and unflavoured vegetables, and drinks only the water he uses to boil his food. Lavish things offend him personally and ostentatious wealth prompts him to make paper creatures to tear it down. When he walks Creation, birds lay eggs with too-thin shells and dropped quills always point towards the Pole of Wood.

Oi Dono has seventeen shops within the Demon City, three upon the slopes of Qaf, one owned in the Nighthammer district of Nexus (which is almost always closed), and one which was destroyed long ago by Isidoros. All of these are but reflections of his true workshop, however, which sits upon the black moon of Malfeas and which has only ever seen the Contrary One as a client.

In these places, Oi Dono makes marvels from paper. With the right inks made from the ground up substance of the thing he is copying, he can make a bird that flies and sings, a manse that forms paper hearthstones, or even something that can pass as a human being. Alas, whatever he makes is still paper, and so is ruined by water, though he knows of special varnishes made from demon-blood that slow the process - though he claims they ruin the aesthetic beauty and so tries to avoid their use whenever possible. Naturally, he also hates fire in all its forms, for it destroys his work easily.

Sorcerers call upon the Paper Folder for his demonic mastery of origami. His paper dolls can replace the king of a nation or produce an assassin who will never talk under torture, while one of his giant paper birds might convey someone across nations. He is a craftsman, and even when bound he must be paid a fair price for his work, though he will take many strange things in payment to be sold in the markets of his cousin Marikos. He gains Limit when forced to witness extravagant or wasteful lavishness. Oi Dono can crawl forth from Malfeas when something or someone beautiful is destroyed to great mourning, leaving only a fragment. He will arrive in his cart, offering to make a replacement - for a price.
I'm struggling to find the meaning, but all I can find is that Noh really likes Origami?

Let me reread and think for a bit.

1. With the right inks made from the ground up substance of the thing he is copying, he can make a bird that flies and sings, a manse that forms paper hearthstones, or even something that can pass as a human being.
A. Oi Dono makes forgeries.

2. Alas, whatever he makes is still paper, and so is ruined by water, though he knows of special varnishes made from demon-blood that slow the process - though he claims they ruin the aesthetic beauty and so tries to avoid their use whenever possible. Naturally, he also hates fire in all its forms, for it destroys his work easily.
B. They are well made, but fundamentally weak in fatal ways. He also won't naturally make things sturdy, which seems appropriate for a soul of the Ebon Dragon.

3. Oi Dono can crawl forth from Malfeas when something or someone beautiful is destroyed to great mourning, leaving only a fragment. He will arrive in his cart, offering to make a replacement - for a price.
C. I can see how an Indulgent Soul can be a merchant. It feels right, in some ways.

Rereading Noh's Writeup, you can see how she really hates rulers and being ruled. She also has 10,000 forms.

Oi Dono is a Merchant who lives like a pauper.
Oi Dono is a Craftsman who makes forgeries of and from real things.
Oi Dono has practical reasons for hating fire (light).


Can you give us a hint?
 
Is that a Warden Soul (because it "protects" him from his own imagined strength) or a Defining Soul (since it acts as a physical manifestation of his own fear and willing paralysis)?
Its less of an ironclad "X or Y" distinction in many cases like this one, because the choice of categories themselves serve to say something about the demon they stem out from. Does the demon feel like he is a creature meant to be caged, and therefore would not be himself without that restraining him? Then it is probably more Defining, and a sticky situation for summoning. If he considers those restraints to be something which instead preserves his nature and stops him from destroying who he believes he is, then it'd be more of a Warden situation. You could easily flip those justifications as well, and it creates a totally different interpretation for his internal value-system.

Its these little things which attracts most people to create demons more than most other critters.
 
How?
You can't just leave it at that....
Okay, so Gloam has these "corrupted" Dragon-Bloods who are touched by the Thing Below. It makes them hunger for the Essence of the living and grants them unique powers.

White Raven, the Twilight's girlfriend, is one such corrupted Dragon-Blood. She has managed to keep her corruption in check and feeds on scraps of Essence by carefully managing her diet and the geomancy of her home, but it's an open secret that eventually the group must either find a way to free her from the corruption or kill her, because the Thing Below can affect her mind and turn her against them.

Velvet Shroud Akina, the group's Eclipse, is an exorcist. She has been honing her ability to banish evil spirits and magical infections from others in hope that she can rip the corruption out of a Dragon-Blood. She has so far met success on weaker corrupted beings, but it is known that the infection is more potent in Exalts than in mortals.

As part of the ongoing ploy by the antagonists to separate the circle and destroy them individually, Velvet has been lured into the Old Temple, where she has met Cathak Raehion, an affable and apologetic Wood Aspect who is very much corrupted and has resigned himself to being a monster who feeds on souls. He and Velvet had a polite discussion, and Velvet explained that she was going to try and free him from the curse, and he expressed that he regretfully couldn't allow her to do that. They fought.

Velvet used Burning Exorcism Technique on him. It purged - violently - all the power he had absorbed from his vampiric practice. It almost incapacitated him.

But it did not cure the corruption. He was still tainted, she had just suppressed the symptoms. The darkness was still in him. And having all his stolen Essence ripped from him, the hunger overtook him and he tried again to kill Velvet.

And so Velvet choked him into unconsciousness, crying at the realization that if her Burning Exorcism Technique was not enough she might indeed have to kill White Raven.

(she's probably going to try Soul Projection Method, but right now she's completely out of Essence and fighting for dear life against a spirit the Wood Aspect was using as backup)
 
As part of the ongoing ploy by the antagonists to separate the circle and destroy them individually, Velvet has been lured into the Old Temple,
Huh.
Does the PC have no sense of self-preservation IC?
One would think that in a city they know has gribblies strong/cunning enough to threaten baby Solars, noone would go anywhere without a wingman.
(she's probably going to try Soul Projection Method, but right now she's completely out of Essence and fighting for dear life against a spirit the Wood Aspect was using as backup)
This should be fun.

Thanks for the tale.
Let us know how it goes; I'm no particular fan of 3E, but I'm a sucker for a good story.
 
Huh.
Does the PC have no sense of self-preservation IC?
They didn't have much choice. The Dragon-Bloods recently manage to corrupt and subvert the city god of Gloam, and he used his power over the city to curse the PCs and both separate them and force them to arrive in specific points regardless of where they walked.
 
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