TID, as written, basically lets you outlaw slavery in a city by talking to a drunken hobo for an hour or two in the back alleys and making a dice roll.

I have no idea how we get to that point and universal suffrage, but that's 100% legal for as long as the hobo counts as a member of that city state.

Shit, why doesn't the hobo-whisperer just talk to a random Dynast and instantly outlaw the Immaculate Order.

TID was everything wrong about 2E, and a thousand times more bullshit than GSK because...

Who gives a damn?

Pretty much everybody agrees TID is bad. Why does it matter whether it's worse than GKS?

"Better than TID" is damning with the faintest of praise. If you're trying to convince people that GKS is good at all, talking down TID is not going to help.

I'm pretty sure this entire tangent is completely pointless.

...

And now I'm participating in it.

Argh.

...at least the latter arbitrarily puts into motion a plausible series of events...

For the record, I don't think it does. Not really interested in debating that though.
 
To attempt to turn this back into something a bit happier (lol dead women are happier than this thread) I was talking with @horngeek and noted that La Llorona is basically perfect Lesser or Greater Dead inspiration.

Since not everyone here knows Hispanic ghost stories, well, here y'go.

La Llorona - Wikipedia
 
To attempt to turn this back into something a bit happier (lol dead women are happier than this thread) I was talking with @horngeek and noted that La Llorona is basically perfect Lesser or Greater Dead inspiration.

Since not everyone here knows Hispanic ghost stories, well, here y'go.

La Llorona - Wikipedia

Not exact, since you don't get turned away from Lethe, but a woman who murdered her children, committed suicide and now wanders as a ghost, searching for them?

yeah, that's perfect ghost material.
 
As many as is dramatically appropriate. Also it does social taboos of a group not laws or the opinions of specific powerful people. You couldn't make the Immaculates illegal but you could make being too faithful rude. The charm is supposed to be for wide scale social manipulation over time so the proper use is to target organizations with things they won't bother spending loyalty on to gradually shift the culture over multiple uses.

The point is that you can still do things like create a distaste for slavery or antipathy towards the Immaculate Order without any logical reasoning behind it and through a few hours of conversation with a single member.

Who gives a damn?

Pretty much everybody agrees TID is bad. Why does it matter whether it's worse than GKS?

"Better than TID" is damning with the faintest of praise. If you're trying to convince people that GKS is good at all, talking down TID is not going to help.

I'm not the one who tried to first argue that one was more handwavey than another though

you said "[we'll] never see handwavery on the level of Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe" and pointed at a charm that exceeds it.

And god knows why, people are still ardently defending TID so I don't agree that "pretty much everyone thinks TID is bad" is actually true
 
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The point is that you can still do things like create a distaste for slavery or antipathy towards the Immaculate Order without any logical reasoning behind it and through a few hours of conversation with a single member.

...and that it has an explicit resistance condition built into the text of the Charm as well as a Keyword which renders it vulnerable to certain kinds of passive defenses (for instance, if the leader is immune to Compulsions, so is the entire nation).

You know, unlike the Charm you are defending which has no built in defense or keyworded weakness which renders it inapplicable?
 
...and that it has an explicit resistance condition built into the text of the Charm as well as a Keyword which renders it vulnerable to certain kinds of passive defenses (for instance, if the leader is immune to Compulsions, so is the entire nation).

You know, unlike the Charm you are defending which has no built in defense or keyworded weakness which renders it inapplicable?

I don't know what's to be gained by proving one charm is worse than the other either so I'll just ask, how many mortal or dragonblooded rulers are outright immune to compulsion?

And you still didn't explain how a per scene willpower recovery is at all meaningful when we have no idea how many scenes occur in a week/month/year.
 
I don't know what's to be gained by proving one charm is worse than the other either so I'll just ask, how many mortal or dragonblooded rulers are outright immune to compulsion?

Quite a few Dragonblooded will have Charms which render certain compulsions into Unacceptable Orders. Mortals, less so.

And you still didn't explain how a per scene willpower recovery is at all meaningful when we have no idea how many scenes occur in a week/month/year.

Anywhere from zero to as many as you want. Nothing says the leader needs to appear in the scene for it to qualify for recovering Loyalty. If you skip forward in time large time jumps than I suppose nothing important happened in the meantime... including the social unit acting on the compulsion you gave them. If you narrate the unit reacting to the Charm that is a scene.
 
Quite a few Dragonblooded will have Charms which render certain compulsions into Unacceptable Orders. Mortals, less so.

All highly conditional, niche, and surmounted by any real effort by Solar Mind Rape because that's just how 2E worked.

Edit: After looking into it, the only effect that renders any command or compulsion outright unnacceptable in 2.5E's MOEP Dragonblooded is Unflagging Vengeance Meditation, which will inflict unhealable bashing damage every day it's es active. It is not practical to sustain it.

Anywhere from zero to as many as you want. Nothing says the leader needs to appear in the scene for it to qualify for recovering Loyalty. If you skip forward in time large time jumps than I suppose nothing important happened in the meantime... including the social unit acting on the compulsion you gave them. If you narrate the unit reacting to the Charm that is a scene.

So, as long as the GM actively intervenes whenever the RAW makes everything insane, the charm functions without flaw.

How is this, in any way, shape, or form mechanically rigorous to you? Jesus.
 
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On Dragon-Blooded Themes

The Dragon-Blooded are Chosen of The Elemental Dragons, just as much as the Solars are Chosen of The Unconquered Sun or the Infernals are Chosen of Hell, and this manifests through inherited might. The Dragon-Blooded embody the elements of Creation and manifest this through themes of Brotherhood, Righteousness, Nobility, Soldiery, Purity and of course the Sanctity of Nature. They are individually the weakest of the Exalted and must work together for their more powerful effects, which can be seen in their more powerful Charms, and also in the Cooperative Keyword.

The Dragon-Blooded embody Brotherhood, which is quite probably one of their more important themes. The Scarlet Empress and the General Staff of Lookshy could look each other in the eyes and say "for the good of Creation" and love each other like brother and sister if they ever felt like it. All the leaders of the Great Houses could be the best of friends should the need arise. This is an easy trick for any Terrestrial to learn, and indeed is one of their signature magics.

The Dragon-Blooded demonstrate Righteousness through Charms such as Defense-From-Anathema Method or Scent-of-Crime Method. Just like Solar Larceny goes "oh you would lock your doors for the Solar Exalted, what are you some kind of HERETIC?", Dragon-Blooded Investigation goes "oy m8 are you lying to me? are you some kinda fucking criminal who would lie to the Princes of The Earth?". While Solars have Righteousness-as-Virtue, Dragon-Blooded have Righteousness-as-Law, where you gotta fucking follow the law or you're some kind of criminal.

And criminals get executed.

In Nobility we find such Charms as Sweetening The Tap Method or Jade Defense, which let you channel your SUPERIOR DECADENCE to make THE SWEETEST FUCKING WINE or be so bored that you are harder to influence. When the Draggon-Blooded channel themes of Nobility, it's because of their role in the setting as decadent nobles and the Beautiful Elite who spend the money of the Realm on their own personal interests instead of using it to better the lives of their subjects, which is a very important theme.

Through Soldiery we have most Dragon-Blooded combat Charms. This is by far their most prolific theme, and sadly also one that is extremely overused, since it relegates them to an automatic position beneath the feet of the Celestial Exalted where the only correct thing to do is for the Terrestrials to bow to their Celestial lords and masters. Sadly the writers themselves became subject to this propaganda, and currently one of the things that I am excited for is 3e's portrayal of Dragon-Blooded, which has more focus on their status as individual heroes with elemental powers who work together and embody much stronger themes of Nobility.

In Purity, we find Charms that require specific levels of Breeding to work, or Charms which increase their effectiveness with Breeding. This theme is also very prolific and just like Soldiery, doesn't have many handholds in the actual Terrestrial Charmset. Purity Charms are rare and often Essence 4+, but seem to have embedded themselves as an integral part of the Terrestrial thematics despite their rarity. Purity Charms are also a rather problematic element since they add to the general theme of "Take this much Breeding to have fun". Dreams of The First Age added Purity-Crucible Strike which can increase a character's Breeding, but it's literally a succeed-or-die Charm and is also an Elder Charm, so this is not a good fix.

Finally we have the theme of Sanctity of Nature, which is quite possibly one of their least prolific themes of all. We see a bit of it in Nature Reclaims Her Bounty and in As In The Beginning, but it is mostly relegated to Essence 5+ Charms, which tells us that it is not a core Terestrial theme unlike say; Nobility or Purity which are very important to the Terrestrial experience. Charms which possess this theme are often very obvious with their effects and possess grand and iconic effects, and of all the things that one could criticize Second Edition for, I am very happy that it added more of these Charms.

And then there is a not-quite theme, which I will call Mere Terrestrials. This theme is not as bad now as it used to be, but it used to be perhaps the most prolific theme of them all. On SpaceBattles, there were habitual questions such as "what is the appeal to playing a mook who fights in a horde?" or "why would you want to be a mere DB who is only part of a faceless horde?". It's everything bad about the Soldiery theme, but worse, it infected Second Edition and informed every consciously taken design decision that wasn't just copypasted from 1e. We can blame the terrible Portentous Comet-Deflecting Mode pseudo-Perfect on this Theme telling the writers that Terrestrials are supposed to be terrible and shitty discount Exalts.
 
Not exact, since you don't get turned away from Lethe, but a woman who murdered her children, committed suicide and now wanders as a ghost, searching for them?

yeah, that's perfect ghost material.

Eh

You don't TECHNICALLY get turned away from death by itself, not unless you've attracted the attentions of a Necromancer anyway!

They've got plenty of ways to get their hooks into you, and ensure a nice strong potentially strong (or valuable) ghost can be kept viable for their use!
 
On Dragon-Blooded Themes
I appreciate the effort, but I'm actually desperately trying to avoid thinking of the Terrestrial Exalted for a while; all the business about them being a walking endorsement of eugenics and "blood purity" has made it impossible for me to think of them as anything but actual literal Nazis, and the Shogunate is fast becoming indistinguishable from Wolfenstein: The New Order in my mind...
 
I appreciate the effort, but I'm actually desperately trying to avoid thinking of the Terrestrial Exalted for a while; all the business about them being a walking endorsement of eugenics and "blood purity" has made it impossible for me to think of them as anything but actual literal Nazis, and the Shogunate is fast becoming indistinguishable from Wolfenstein: The New Order in my mind...

Hmm, this is interesting because due to how wide-spread that the Blood of The Dragons is, anyone can Exalt as a Dragon-Blooded with luck.

See, we don't actually know how the Exaltation works, so one can easily make the claim that the Exaltation requires some degree of heroism.

But admittedly, Breeding is rather problematic. Though I don't see the decline of the Terrestrial Lineage when mixed with mortal blood as a problem, personally.
 
But admittedly, Breeding is rather problematic. Though I don't see the decline of the Terrestrial Lineage when mixed with mortal blood as a problem, personally.

It's only mechanically problematic. Getting extra motes from it is very-bad not-good terrible.

More generally, if you're the bloodline, hereditary Exalt, then for fuck's sake have the balls to own that theme. Don't go for limp cop outs. So, yes, Terrestrial Exaltation should be grotesquely unfair, and the phenotypical chance of it expressing itself should be a secondary thing. And yes, the eugenics and stuff that it encourages should be uncomfortable to modern eyes - just like every other special magical aristocracy with a special bloodline power in fantasy fiction. The Dragonblooded are that archetype.

(Lost Eggs cover the "My heritage was secretly covered up and I can draw my ancestry back to the last king" - and then the Realm, rather than treating you as a Chosen One, gets you to either become a soldier or a non-breeding monk)
 
It's only mechanically problematic. Getting extra motes from it is very-bad not-good terrible.

Oh yes, Breeding should definitely be a thing, it just shouldn't be "take this or you are literally an idiot".

More generally, if you're the bloodline, hereditary Exalt, then for fuck's sake have the balls to own that theme. Don't go for limp cop outs. So, yes, Terrestrial Exaltation should be grotesquely unfair, and the phenotypical chance of it expressing itself should be a secondary thing. And yes, the eugenics and stuff that it encourages should be uncomfortable to modern eyes - just like every other special magical aristocracy with a special bloodline power in fantasy fiction. The Dragonblooded are that archetype.
Indeed. Dragon-Blooded society is after all structured around the desperate chance and desire that you might Exalt in which case you are great and awesome and have we told you how much we love you.

If you don't Exalt, that'something of a shame and yes we're very sorry for you now go have some children so you can have some use.

(Lost Eggs cover the "My heritage was secretly covered up and I can draw my ancestry back to the last king" - and then the Realm, rather than treating you as a Chosen One, gets you to either become a soldier or a non-breeding monk)
Well, you get to become an officer (because hahahaha who want to waste a Dragon-Blood as a foot soldier) or one of the best martial artists in Creation, whom kings will empty their treasury to see perform their katas.

So yeah, a soldier or a monk. :V
 
(Lost Eggs cover the "My heritage was secretly covered up and I can draw my ancestry back to the last king" - and then the Realm, rather than treating you as a Chosen One, gets you to either become a soldier or a non-breeding monk)
which is a weird counterproductive political goal that actually hampers prolification of dragonbloods, if you want to preserve a bloodline or specific traits you don't do it by being incredibly careful about who you breed with, you do it by breeding with so many people that those traits become Fixated in the genome and everyone has them.
 
which is a weird counterproductive political goal that actually hampers prolification of dragonbloods, if you want to preserve a bloodline or specific traits you don't do it by being incredibly careful about who you breed with, you do it by breeding with so many people that those traits become Fixated in the genome and everyone has them.

Funny. Dog breeders would totally and utterly disagree with you. You don't see the dog breeders breeding for a specific trait spreading the genes far and wide - indeed, they go to quite notable lengths to keep the bloodlines pure.

More generally, the Scarlet Empire wants the following:
1) Reliable, well-bred Exaltation of the Dynasty. This means they want to breed for Breeding purity, and avoid muddying their breeding lines.
1a) It is taken as a fact that you can't stop two Terrestrials from banging if they really want to, so adding weak-blooded Dragonblooded risks diluting your breeding pool.
2) Control of the Dragonblooded of Creation. That means they want to control all the strong bloodlines, and make sure that all the Dragonblooded are raised as Dynasts with instinctual loyalty to the throne. This means they want to siphon up all the Dragonblooded they can, and prevent independent bloodlines from emerging (insofar as that is possible).
 
Can you imagine the disruption to the Realm if there were ten or twenty times the Lost Eggs due to spreading the DB genes as much as possible? They might even outnumber the Dynasts and start being rather annoyed by being ruled by less numerous and more powerful (due to Breeding, training and access to heirloom artifacts) Exalts, and we all know where that leads.

The empress valued stability and ease of control over maximal number of Exaltions.
 
Not so much 'emerging' as 'already there'.

Honestly, in my Creation I stick in many more Cadet Houses (which are basically the Realm going "Okay, there's an existing Dragonblooded structure here, we'll say they're a Cadet House and treat them as second-class Dynasts rather than go through the expense of invasion") and independent Dragonblooded powers. Like, it's hardly rare for a Threshold nation to have some Dragon-blood, and so every few generations they get a Dragonblooded monarch.

(They usually inbreed a fair degree, or have marriages with other powers with some Dragonblood - accompanied with very, very long marriage contracts determining what happens to any children who Exalt.)
 
Honestly, in my Creation I stick in many more Cadet Houses (which are basically the Realm going "Okay, there's an existing Dragonblooded structure here, we'll say they're a Cadet House and treat them as second-class Dynasts rather than go through the expense of invasion") and independent Dragonblooded powers. Like, it's hardly rare for a Threshold nation to have some Dragon-blood, and so every few generations they get a Dragonblooded monarch.

(They usually inbreed a fair degree, or have marriages with other powers with some Dragonblood - accompanied with very, very long marriage contracts determining what happens to any children who Exalt.)

Pretty much my opinion as well- and fortunately, the canon setting has enough blank space, so to speak, to allow you to insert that into it even in canon.

Don't forget "lose 90% of Creation in the process". It's practically a tradition by now.

Chejop Kejak: "...godsdammit all."
 
Funny. Dog breeders would totally and utterly disagree with you. You don't see the dog breeders breeding for a specific trait spreading the genes far and wide - indeed, they go to quite notable lengths to keep the bloodlines pure.
well dog breeders main concern isn't the supremacy of their breed, in fact the exclusiveness of a breed benefits them.

hmm saying they're being counterproductive was abd choice of words, more that the Realm is being hypocritical, they claim that they are preserving dragonblooded but they are more concerned with preserving control of dragonblooded.
1a) It is taken as a fact that you can't stop two Terrestrials from banging if they really want to, so adding weak-blooded Dragonblooded risks diluting your breeding pool.
only if you take the idea that someone can only reproduce a single time or with a singular partner. a pure blooded dragon blood can breed with a pure mortal and another pure dragon blood, producing both halfbloods and purebloods, then you can breed these halfbloods with another lineage of pure dragon bloods producing 3/4 dragon blooded, and so on until the fraction of mortal lineage isn't actually in the genetics.

course there'd be no benefit to using mortals if it won't actually produce more viable offspring.
 
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