There is no point in tying them to specific artifact, however. If you want to print, say, fifty five charm long trees which can be attached to any number of artifacts in a mix-and-match style I wouldn't like it but I could understand it.

But why does one artifact need three Charm trees all to itself? Why not just have fifty Charm trees and say "any one artifact can benefits from at most, say, three of these trees as chosen when the artifact is created/purchased."

Because the artifacts still have a theme. Adorei revolves around intimacies, Volcano Cutter is about cataclysmic impacts, Spring Razor about poison, Hunting Hawk about taking advantage of superior elevation. A set of distinct charm trees that are in keeping with an artifact's themes are more consistent than a set of disparate charm trees of wildly diverging character.
 
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Because the artifacts still have a theme. Adorei revolves around intimacies, Volcano Cutter is about cataclysmic impacts, Spring Razor about poison, Hunting Hawk about taking advantage of superior elevation. A set of distinct charm trees that are in keeping with an artifact's themes are more consistent than a set of disparate charm trees of wildly diverging character.
Except what on earth sets this apart from simply having themed Martial Arts Charms of the same nature? What is so inherently Evocation about any of these effects that we require not simply a subclass of Charms dedicated to it, but a class within that class dedicated to theming them? Why are there so many when the more Charms you create for a thing, the greater the chances form of having a slew of "Best Options" emerging from the pile and thus no one buys those 80 other Charms because they are terrible and a waste of wordcount?

Why am I buying into a Charm tree based on Intimacies when supposedly Exalt Charms, especially Solars, are supposed to be broad enough that I could make my own better version of an Evocation's effect in the first place, likely from taking the Evocation itself as an example and never having to bother with this shitty xp-dump artifact to begin with? I have 900 existing examples in the fucking Corebook, why does there need to be another dozen on top of that dedicated to increasingly niche minor themes like "burning things" or "having social powers," when the mechanical realities between these things aren't that dissimilar at all?
 
That can't be a real quote, can it?
It reads like a Trump parody.

In fairness, a lot of people speaking extemporaneously will sound a lot like Trump when transcribed, because that's what he's doing in those situations.

A good speaker will be able to disguise it, but I don't think anybody has ever accused John of being a great public speaker.
 
Except what on earth sets this apart from simply having themed Martial Arts Charms of the same nature? What is so inherently Evocation about any of these effects that we require not simply a subclass of Charms dedicated to it, but a class within that class dedicated to theming them? Why are there so many when the more Charms you create for a thing, the greater the chances form of having a slew of "Best Options" emerging from the pile and thus no one buys those 80 other Charms because they are terrible and a waste of wordcount?

Because, and this is where your thesis falls flat, there is no obvious Best Option, merely preferences on part of the player character. While it's conceivable that some charms will be better than others in an elaborate metagame people concoct, there currently exists no situation where taking one effect over another is obviously detrimental and counterproductive to what the player wants to do with their character.

Why am I buying into a Charm tree based on Intimacies when supposedly Exalt Charms, especially Solars, are supposed to be broad enough that I could make my own better version of an Evocation's effect in the first place, likely from taking the Evocation itself as an example and never having to bother with this shitty xp-dump artifact to begin with?

The point of Evocations is not to be weaker versions of existing combat charms. The point is that it supplements and synergizes with your existing combat charms, and further you seem to repeatedly forget that you can buy evocations with SXP, which is separate from the basic xp pool used to buy charms in the first place.

Second, so seem to be confused about the Beloved Adorei artifact. It's not an artifact that gives you social powers, it's an artifact themed around using intimacies as a weapon. It gets stronger the more your enemy's intimacies contradict your own, or strengthens based on your emotional commitment to the weapon. Again, evocations are not meant to be demi-charms that you sacrifice your purchase of actual charms for.

I have 900 existing examples in the fucking Corebook, why does there need to be another dozen on top of that dedicated to increasingly niche minor themes like "burning things" or "having social powers," when the mechanical realities between these things aren't that dissimilar at all?

You seem to be desperately overplaying the costs of Evocations while deeply underplaying their actual impact. Again, the point is to synergize with your existing combat style, using a pool of xp entirely separate from what you buy your charms with.

Further, the effects are quite distinct in terms of how they work or how they help you approach a battle. There's more to how battles are handled in the current combat system than smacking your opponent until they lose all their health and/or their motes.
 
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Because, and this is where your thesis falls flat, there is no obvious Best Option, merely preferences on part of the player character.
I'm going to guess outright that you've never designed a game, or a great deal of Charm-similar powers for that matter, or else you wouldn't be saying something so outlandishly untrue as this statement. Ex3 Charms are not built or designed any different than the 2e Charms everyone vilifies, nor to any higher mechanical standard which would enforce some kind consistency on them, let alone of a type that matches anything you say. They are simply marginally different Charms than the previous ones, and every additional Charm made runs the risk of voiding the ones around it because Exalted does not have a concrete enough gameplay structure to avoid causing those powers to be built to begin with.

Like, there isn't an argument to be made with the rest of your post because it is simply a list of buzzword terminology like "metagame" and "synergy" that likes to present itself as deep mechanical understanding, but is really just parroting a lofty design ideology that the mechanics of the game itself does not make any legitimately measurable attempt to uphold, or inform the end-user how to uphold in its place.
 
I'm going to guess outright that you've never designed a game, or a great deal of Charm-similar powers for that matter, or else you wouldn't be saying something so outlandishly untrue as this statement. Ex3 Charms are not built or designed any different than the 2e Charms everyone vilifies, nor to any higher mechanical standard which would enforce some kind consistency on them, let alone of a type that matches anything you say. They are simply marginally different Charms than the previous ones, and every additional Charm made runs the risk of voiding the ones around it because Exalted does not have a concrete enough gameplay structure to avoid causing those powers to be built to begin with.

You do realize that there is a massive difference between the scale and scope of charms in 3E vs. 2E, right? Like the fact that you'll never see anything as handwavey as 2E's taboo inflicting diatribe, or anything approaching 2E's perfect defenses? That the individual charms themselves are much more specific and scaled down in scope (to the point where people here have villified 3E for doing away with charms that handwave problems). There is a vast difference in charm design between 2E and 3E, and if you are unable to grasp this then I'm not sure what I can even do for you. There's literally no way to sway you on this otherwise, so the best I can say is, please read 3E's charms because the differences are fundamental enough that even 3E's detractors were able to pick up on it.


Well, the concept of resources, infrastructure, and people basically materializing fully-formed out of nowhere just seems so lazy.
 
Oh right, I forgot he did that.

Never mind, I no longer feel sorry for him. :V

(Didn't you get banned from the OP forums for criticizing him?)

More or less, yeah. Don't remember the details. Can probably dig up the link if you're really curious.

This might sound weird, but in retrospect I'm kinda glad I was banned. Wasn't a super healthy place to be, and I needed a kick in the pants to stop me from staying there out of pure habit.

In fairness, a lot of people speaking extemporaneously will sound a lot like Trump when transcribed, because that's what he's doing in those situations.

A good speaker will be able to disguise it, but I don't think anybody has ever accused John of being a great public speaker.

Yep. Much as I dislike John's work as developer, I don't have it in me to attack him over that bit of word-vomit.
 
More or less, yeah. Don't remember the details. Can probably dig up the link if you're really curious.

This might sound weird, but in retrospect I'm kinda glad I was banned. Wasn't a super healthy place to be, and I needed a kick in the pants to stop me from staying there out of pure habit.

And you want to be here instead.

I am impressed and slightly horrified. :V

But seriously though, I love the stuff you've done for Third Edition, I showed my friends the Craft system and the most intelligent response I got after one had managed to wrap his head around it was "what even".

Then I showed them yours and they thought it was awesome.
 
You do realize that there is a massive difference between the scale and scope of charms in 3E vs. 2E, right?
That's design ideology again, not mechanics rigor, and the fact you keep conflating the two isn't helping your case any.

Like, what are these "synergies" that you claim Evocations are supposed to be in the first place? Mechanical gap-filling? Covering weaknesses? Attaching options to existing things? All of these? If its mechanical gap-filling then its worthless because it is simply outsourcing Ability-tree capability out into a trinket and therefore worse than a standard Charm, in bold contradiction to what you're saying. If its covering weaknesses, then it risks creating "all comers" tactics where someone can make themselves fully rules-legal invincible rather than subject to some kind of mechanical give-and-take. Attaching options is a nightmare because you're adding to a pool of interlocking Charms which can be used without very strongly defined limits and rapidly approaches "combitorial hell" that people like to sling around here. If its ALL of these, then Evocations exist solely to create a fault in the system even if it Did work the way you claim it does.

How is the player supposed to know what these synergies even are? How do they know what the mechanical gaps exist in the character, what weaknesses they have or what options are permissible to use together effectively? The game certainly isn't telling them this up front, they have to slog through it manually and learn by experience what works and what doesn't, a process which inevitably divides the good, useful and worthwhile Charms from the ones which don't actually allow for meaningful choices to be made. Therefore, we get Best Options. In a system demanding mastery of it like that to understand what works, THAT is player preference, not "I want to throw fireballs." Its "does the fireball throwing power actually do something game-impactful when I use it." Because if its a wet fart of a power no one will bother anymore, aesthetics be-damned, and actively push starting players away from it and into reskinning existing, better things to do its special effects instead.

Meanwhile, those "synergies" you keep touting will be stumbled upon by those fumbling, inexperienced players and STs in ways that ruin games because they don't know how all these moving parts collide with eachother until something breaks, and do you know why? Because there is no overarching structure to determine "how battles are handled in the current combat system than smacking your opponent until they lose all their health and/or their motes." What are you talking about here? Initiative management? Battle groups? Use of "Quick characters" with eyeballed Charms and abilities? Because the game doesn't actually tell you how to use any of those things as a Storyteller, let alone tell you what 'approach' by a player is meaningful from a mechanical standpoint. Its all 100% trial and error, and you have to make your way blindly through it until something happens and trivializes the entire affair.

Subdividing Charms downward doesn't remove any of these issues, and insisting that the design ideology is itself self-evident and conclusively true doesn't hash out in the gameplay or the pie-in-the-sky method you seem to be describing it.
 
Whichever one that Peleps Deled thought it was, I suppose, because the person who can kill you the hardest is always the most correct one in this setting.
Yeah, but which one was that? I mean, just in case i ever have a conversation with the guy....

You don't know, do you?

I am now just going to imagine that Pelep's doesn't have an opinion wither way, he just uses it as a "heads i win tails you lose" for when he needs an excuse.
 
Oh hell yes.

That's why I'm asking.

A full-on Wyld-Shaping Charm is not valid design space due to the funny noices of pain and woe the setting makes when you try to do that.

This however is something different:

(very rough draft incoming)

Ten-Thousand Dragons Shape Creation
Cost:
10m, 1wp; Mins: Awareness 5, Essence 5; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Cooperative, Martyr, Obvious
Duration: One season per dot of Esssence
Prerequisites: Essence Disruption Attack

The Ten-Thousand Terrestrial Heroes are the Chosen of Creation, and carry the torch of Shape with them no matter where they go. When the Dragon-Blooded kills a Raksha that is affected by Essence Disruption Attack and that has Ownership of a Waypoint, she may reflexively use this Charm to crystallize the Waypoint into Creation, as if she had scored (the Raksha's Essence rating) successes on Wyld-Shaping Technique, which she may only spend on Land and Demesne, she may spend no more than (Awareness/2) successes on either, and Demesnes created like so will always be her Aspect. Anything created by this Charm lasts for (the Dragon-Blood's Essence rating/2) seasons before it disappears into the Wyld. Multiple Dragon-Bloods who know this Charm can combine their powers to raise the cap on successes she may spend by one for every Dragon-Blood that helps. With the Martyr keyword, this Charm's duration becomes permanent.
 
Yeah, but which one was that? I mean, just in case i ever have a conversation with the guy....

You don't know, do you?

I am now just going to imagine that Pelep's doesn't have an opinion wither way, he just uses it as a "heads i win tails you lose" for when he needs an excuse.
I think we only know that the argument was over that topic, we don't know which side either person was on.
 
What.

Like seriously, what?

120 exp for a single artifact!? The current slew of Evocations aren't perfect, but 5 is a good solid number that can be reached either in char-gen if you're aiming for it or maybe with a session or two of play.
Then what? Despair because, having sacrificed Solar charms for mere triffles, you have nothing to spend Solar XP on? The Evocation trees in the leak absolutely were overgrown, but the ones in the core have always felt a bit too restrictive. I'd love to see a third option.

You also can't actually get all of them right out of character creation, because you're Essence 1 and some of the Evocations will require Essence 2, 3, or theoretically even 5.

Though I've never owned or particularly wanted a Cadillac, I'm just going to note that the suggested Solar XP per session – by my recollection – clocks in at 4sxp.

So it would take you eight months of uninterrupted weekly sessions in which you spent your Solar XP on nothing but your daiklave to complete that tree.

"More involved" certainly seems accurate.
It's the equivalent of ~1.5 Martial Art Styles, so it's pretty heavy but not entirely unreasonable. Another way of looking at it is that you could theoretically spend a little under half your total possible Solar XP on the way to Essence 5 on your sword.
 
It's a shame, because from a flavour PoV an Earth Aspect DB stabilising the Wyld around himself like the Pole of Earth does to Creation would be fairly fitting.

As an aside, in theory a Dragonblooded can shape the Wyld. He ""just"" needs to succeed at a Solar Circle Sorcerous Working.
 
It's a shame, because from a flavour PoV an Earth Aspect DB stabilising the Wyld around himself like the Pole of Earth does to Creation would be fairly fitting.

As an aside, in theory a Dragonblooded can shape the Wyld. He ""just"" needs to succeed at a Solar Circle Sorcerous Working.
Temporary stabilization is probably fine. Wyld Shaping is a different thing altogether.
 
That's design ideology again, not mechanics rigor, and the fact you keep conflating the two isn't helping your case any.

Like, what are these "synergies" that you claim Evocations are supposed to be in the first place? Mechanical gap-filling? Covering weaknesses? Attaching options to existing things? All of these? If its mechanical gap-filling then its worthless because it is simply outsourcing Ability-tree capability out into a trinket and therefore worse than a standard Charm, in bold contradiction to what you're saying. If its covering weaknesses, then it risks creating "all comers" tactics where someone can make themselves fully rules-legal invincible rather than subject to some kind of mechanical give-and-take. Attaching options is a nightmare because you're adding to a pool of interlocking Charms which can be used without very strongly defined limits and rapidly approaches "combitorial hell" that people like to sling around here. If its ALL of these, then Evocations exist solely to create a fault in the system even if it Did work the way you claim it does.

How is the player supposed to know what these synergies even are? How do they know what the mechanical gaps exist in the character, what weaknesses they have or what options are permissible to use together effectively? The game certainly isn't telling them this up front, they have to slog through it manually and learn by experience what works and what doesn't, a process which inevitably divides the good, useful and worthwhile Charms from the ones which don't actually allow for meaningful choices to be made. Therefore, we get Best Options. In a system demanding mastery of it like that to understand what works, THAT is player preference, not "I want to throw fireballs." Its "does the fireball throwing power actually do something game-impactful when I use it." Because if its a wet fart of a power no one will bother anymore, aesthetics be-damned, and actively push starting players away from it and into reskinning existing, better things to do its special effects instead.

You whine about buzzword terminology and then give me this. Okay.

Evocations exist to attach options and supplement an existing fighting style. Hunting Hawk, for example, increases the benefits gained from charms like Monkey Leap Technique and supplements a harassment, hit and run style that lets you flee from enemies who get too close and gain concealment. Spring Razor is designed to boost the effects of poisons, while Shining Ice Mirror applies penalties on successful hits. It's mainly there to provide additional benefits that supplement your intrinsic ability. I disagree immensely that it leads to 'combitorial hell' as you put it, given that capstone evocations are Simple effects, while the previous evocations are largely boosts to an attack or defense action rather than unique actions in and of themselves.

You also seem to be vastly overestimating the complexity of these evocations, and I'm not sure how helpful it is to you to explain things secondhand.

Some of Shining Ice Mirror's Evocations are:
This Evocation may be activated after the Solar crashes her opponent with Shining Ice Mirror to wreathe the foe in a numbing cold. Until they recover from in Initiative Crash, they suffer a -2 penalty to all actions and a -1 penalty to Defense.

The Solar swing Shining Ice Mirror in an Essence-laden arc, intensifying the killing cold it has already spread onto the battlefield into a mantle of ice. The Solar makes a withering attack against an opponent suffering penalties from Winter Night Cut or Cold Moon Slash, and if it inflicts damage, they're immediately covered in a mantle of encumbering frost which makes movement actions and flurries impossible, and which inflicts a further -1 penalty to all actions and to Defense. This icy mantle breaks apart once the target no longer suffers any penalties from Winter Night Cut or Cold Moon Slash.

Shining Ice Mirror lets you impede enemy movement and apply debuffs. That is in additional debuff to whatever charm you're using for your attack (or none, as the case may be). It's not a choice between throwing fireballs or shooting ice blasts, it's like adding an additional rider effect that causes your enemy to continue to burn even after the initial shock. It provides a meaningful in game effect, like you argued, and it's pretty easy to tell what charms should and should not be combined by nature of them being reflexive/supplemental/simple.

Because there is no overarching structure to determine "how battles are handled in the current combat system than smacking your opponent until they lose all their health and/or their motes." What are you talking about here? Initiative management? Battle groups? Use of "Quick characters" with eyeballed Charms and abilities?

Because the game doesn't actually tell you how to use any of those things as a Storyteller, let alone tell you what 'approach' by a player is meaningful from a mechanical standpoint. Its all 100% trial and error, and you have to make your way blindly through it until something happens and trivializes the entire affair.

My point was that there does exist enough mechanical distinction between dealing direct damage, applying a penalty, modifying initiative, modifying positioning, the timing of specific actions, etc. to argue against your proposal here:

I have 900 existing examples in the fucking Corebook, why does there need to be another dozen on top of that dedicated to increasingly niche minor themes like "burning things" or "having social powers," when the mechanical realities between these things aren't that dissimilar at all?

What I am trying to establish is that the mechanical realities between these effects are distinct and meaningful.

You seem to be arguing something completely different from me and now complaining about a lack of a storyteller guide. Which, bully for you I guess, but that's not the point I was making at all.

And again, I'm still looking sideways at any of your arguments because I seriously question your comprehension of the system after you argued with me that there was no distinction between 3E charms and 2E charms.
 
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