An epically bad followup, which is sadly par for the course as far as the devs interacting with the fandom at large.
General Exalted Thread
An epically bad followup, which is sadly par for the course as far as the devs interacting with the fandom at large.
Jon Chung
=][=
INTREPID REPORTER: So, Solar Bob, tell us about yourself and your masterful defense of your village against marauding barbarians! We always like a good underdog story, tugs at the ole heartstrings!
SOLAR BOB: Um, I was a farmboy. I liked reading about military strategy in my dad's old copy of The Imperial Legionary's Uplifting Primer. An autonomous heuristic seeker program stuffed this transcendent spiritual nuclear reactor into my soul when I attacked an invader out of desperation. It's pretty useful when it comes to killing invaders.
REPORTER: Um. Spiritual nuclear reactor?
BOB: Yeah, I can shoot laser beams from my sword, and I have this really handy limited omniscience and flawlessly unfailing command interface when leading the boys in combat, it's so convenient. I also seem to have developed this wonderful trick that automatically tells me when someone is trying to kill me from surprise-
<Paranoia Combo activates! It's super effective!>
BOB: -and I can perfectly not die which has, as you can see, been pretty useful. Sorry about the blood splash.
REPORTER: But... I can't run this story! You have a nuclear reactor in your soul which automatically protects you from death.
BOB: I'm sorry, you'll have to find someone else.
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mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So what you're saying is that if you want a better oWoD crosspslat game then play Abyssals?
Darmani
Cast in the name of Pod, Ye Go Ninty
- Location
- Lansing
Sorrry what meme/new slang did I miss you made everyone mad with your analysis with this time? I mean the only trick I know mortals have is spamming bolas and grapple attacks then ramming sticks in a person's throat.
Salty
Shadow Cabal Assumptor Supreme
- Location
- Sun, Moon, Talia
- Pronouns
- I/Me
I do believe five beefy dudes with sledgehammers is the genre-defining classic.
So what you're saying is that if you want a better oWoD crosspslat game then play Abyssals?
Frankly, that was my impression of that idea.
And no, I really don't like it.
Darmani
Cast in the name of Pod, Ye Go Ninty
- Location
- Lansing
Sidereals, the bloodyminded invisible wizards who are also ninjas with access to the gate network of creation and many MANY underlings who can just teleport them where they want and teleport out, complete with evidence and witness clean up without effort on their part guaranteed, want to kill you. ONE of them makes a habit of it (Shajah Holok) and everyone who isn't part ofthe villain faction doesn't know about them and can't see them until the GM more or less lets them. Even without the killer SMA, custom super hax charms, astrology as a subssystem and more artifact and spell access this makes them almost assuredly a TPK waiting to damn happen if played straight unless you have them hobbled by an opposition the same booksthat details and gives them all these advantages ISN'T THERE AND CAN'T STOP THEM.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Why? I'm not like, leading you on or even disagreeing. but I'd like you to elaborate because I'm curious. There seems to be a bit of a break between thinking it's integral to the space of the Abyssal, and those who don't, but nobody's really talking about why. Granted, since this is Exalted, I imagine this conversation has been had about 11,000 times before and this could all be spared if I could find it somewhere in the depths of this thread, but hey
Darmani
Cast in the name of Pod, Ye Go Ninty
- Location
- Lansing
How is this a "p-combo"
This is the classic example of what you need the Paranoia combo for. You don't actually need both Charms, only one of them, but still.
Salty
Shadow Cabal Assumptor Supreme
- Location
- Sun, Moon, Talia
- Pronouns
- I/Me
...It isn't. It's the prototypical reason for them. In much the same vein as "let's try a stealthy assassin enemy oops dead PCs" or "let's try poisons and bad touches wait why are all my players trying to beat me up now?"
If you're actually asking me why I'm bringing it up, look back a little and meditate on our old friend context.
Why? I'm not like, leading you on or even disagreeing. but I'd like you to elaborate because I'm curious. There seems to be a bit of a break between thinking it's integral to the space of the Abyssal, and those who don't, but nobody's really talking about why. Granted, since this is Exalted, I imagine this conversation has been had about 11,000 times before and this could all be spared if I could find it somewhere in the depths of this thread, but hey
Well, first off, keep in mind that Abyssals have only ever interested me- as a PC splat- in terms of their potential for redemption, but that I also find that storyline a very compelling one. So, that probably colours my answer here.
So, thematics. Keep in mind what actually did the twisting of the Abyssal Exaltations here- it was done through the power of the Neverborn and Oblivion. Not the Deathlords working on it like the Yozis did the Infernal Exaltations- there wasn't design here, not IC. So, on that level, I think it should be a twisting of the Solar Exaltations rather than a complete reworking.
And to the extent the Neverborn did work on this consciously, it was with a view to 'efficient killers'- to the extend they had an intent here, it was to create a tool by which to kill Creation and send it all into Oblivion. And what might fit their mad whispering view of 'killers'?
The Solars, who, after all, killed that which could not be killed.
Finally, and this comes back to the redemption angle that I like about Abyssals, I think thematically it works better if there's a similarity.
So. How to work the Abyssal Charmset. Make it Ability-based, and have there be similarities between it and the Solar. But keep in mind Revlid's essay about Yozi Charm Tree design, and how the Infernal Charm tree is its own actor?
That should also be present in the Abyssal Charmset. And what it wants is to kill. There should be no Charm capable of preventing death in the Abyssal Charmset, and every Charm should be designed with at least a view towards 'does this make the person who takes it more effective at dealing out death?'
The Abyssal presence Charms that force people to actually cause themselves harm to resist your social attacks come to mind- I'd probably add one to that tree that allow that damage to happen even if the Social attack is an Unacceptable Order. So, the Abyssal priestess orders you to die- and even though your mind quails, you feel her words eating away at you or the like.
Basically, I think 'Archetypal force of Oblivion' in a dark mirror to 'archetypal force of excellence' is much more engaging than... uh, mash up horror monsters. Having a 'Vampire', 'Ghoul', 'Dreamwalker' Charmtree just feels forced and honestly a bit boring to me. I think Abyssals can absolutely mimic that kinda stuff if they want- but there shouldn't be specific charm trees for it IMO.
Darmani
Cast in the name of Pod, Ye Go Ninty
- Location
- Lansing
Ah, sorry I assume p-combo was about the attack being made NOT the defense needed to live.
I think the main issue is that while the Redemption story is a nice one, having that be the only story available (without doing a true villain campaign) doesn't work for a major splat. Like, there's a reason the Infernals ended up taking over the Abyssals spot in stories, and that's because they can do pretty much anything that Abyssals do. They're not as good for redemption stories, but they're not as obsessively pigeonholed into them either. They're not as good at killing everything (at least in the fluff), but they're not pigeonholed into it.Well, first off, keep in mind that Abyssals have only ever interested me- as a PC splat- in terms of their potential for redemption, but that I also find that storyline a very compelling one. So, that probably colours my answer here.
There's also the issue of all Abyssal games: if the Redemption story is what needs to happen, well, then all of the PC's are kinda having the same character arc. That's less than ideal.
Salty
Shadow Cabal Assumptor Supreme
- Location
- Sun, Moon, Talia
- Pronouns
- I/Me
...Okay. I mean, I was pretty sure that the term "paranoia combo" had so thoroughly soaked into every area of discussion on Exalted balance and game design that it was metaphorical bedrock, but sure, whatever.
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I would say Dragonbloods (or spirit bloods) are the place to go for underdog stories. Dragonbloods are common enough that there will probably always be ones more powerful and connected than you are and that is when there aren't any Anathema to be crushed by. The best place I think for an underdog story is a lost egg trying to make it in The Realm surrounded by dynasts with high breeding.The Harvard Business Review talks about what an underdog is. An underdog is in a disadvantaged position, which it overcomes through-get this, not talent, but rather passion and determination. Eddie the Eagle is an underdog because he has no real skill, but still managed to end up in the Olympics via his determination to do so. Usain Bolt is not an underdog because despite coming from a less-developed country than American or Chinese or whatever sprinters and not having access to a multi-million dollar sports science program which basically turns olympic hopefuls into unstoppable sporting machines, he has so much fucking talent that he could just not give a shit. Where Solars fall on the chart are "privileged achievers," not "underdogs." The underdog narrative requires that your success be not primarily from inherent talent, but rather from hard work and determination.
An underdog might have talent, but it's secondary to their determination.
In the case of Exalted, Solars versus the Realm are privileged achievers versus the top dog, not underdogs versus the top dog. Given some of the writing making the Realm baen-villain incompetent, one could argue it's privileged achievers versus victims.
But Solar Exalted are kind of a eh place to hang an underdog narrative on. Honestly Exalts in general make for pretty mediocre underdogs because their point is being all larger-than-life heroes with phenomenal talent.
- Location
- New York City
Abyssals having deathly spooky powers that are as powerful as Solar Charms sounds cool to me, so I'm down for that if that ever actually happens and we get 3e Abyssals.
There seems like plenty of room for interesting weird stories of the "and now what?" variety if you work for your Deathlord, against them, for your personal redemption or just to exist as a person between life and death in Creation. I get the impression people have already made these kinds of interesting decisions for playable Abyssals in their games previously once they decided to ignore the thing where your Deathlord could skullfuck you because you spent too much time picking daisies.
I've always been a sucker for the undead though.
Man I wish Abyssals for 3e was more than a glimmer in someone's eye.
EDIT: It feels kinda weird to me to look to any of the Exalted types for underdog stories, not that they can't be underdogs relatively. Mortals seem like they could satisfy that itch in a fun way. Mortals games are fun until EXP gets spent and everyone gets good at everything.
There seems like plenty of room for interesting weird stories of the "and now what?" variety if you work for your Deathlord, against them, for your personal redemption or just to exist as a person between life and death in Creation. I get the impression people have already made these kinds of interesting decisions for playable Abyssals in their games previously once they decided to ignore the thing where your Deathlord could skullfuck you because you spent too much time picking daisies.
I've always been a sucker for the undead though.
Man I wish Abyssals for 3e was more than a glimmer in someone's eye.
EDIT: It feels kinda weird to me to look to any of the Exalted types for underdog stories, not that they can't be underdogs relatively. Mortals seem like they could satisfy that itch in a fun way. Mortals games are fun until EXP gets spent and everyone gets good at everything.
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Okay so. I largely agree with you in terms of Abyssals, aside from these points.
I feel that the Abyssals absolutely should have some resemblance to Solars. It's one of the main parts of their shtick after all. It shouldn't be the Mirror set up we had. Rather, I feel it would work better if it were only certain iconic effects. Things that when you see them next to one another, you clearly see their relation, but also present distinct differences. Glorious Solar Saber and Resplendent Shadow Blade, for example.
My problem though, is the idea behind the Archetypal force of Oblivion idea and the idea that the Abyssal charmset should be All Murder All the Time. I really don't care for the idea that the Abyssal storyline should break down to, essentially the choice between being Murder von Murderface and not being an Abyssal. There should be options that exist for Abyssals to both remain Abyssals and for them not to be the Neverborn's killbots.
Recently, one the things I've been pondering is the idea that Abyssals play around with the idea of afterlives. An Abyssal might carve out a territory in the Underworld or Labyrinth(and beat some sanity into it like Solars do when Wyld Shaping) and the souls/ghosts of those loyal to them are drawn to this place. The Abyssal sets up this territory as an afterlive, whether it be a ghostly kingdom/paradise for their dudes, their own personal Valhalla where their favored warriors can feast and fight and train, or whatever else a player can think of.
- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
Part of it's the aesthetics. That's what first drew me to the splat. I just like being able to play someone who can have skulls for pauldrons and answer to "the Hound that Barks at Midnight" without anyone batting an eye.
Part of it's the powers. When Abyssal charms are good, they are cool as fucking shit. Their brawl tree/Hero Style is a gruesome spectacle of overkill that includes one charm for punching your enemy in the dick* and another for yelling "Finish him!" and pulling out his spine. They can turn their blood into a black poison that raises its victims as zombies, color their eyes all-black to let them see in perfect darkness, abandon the need for sleep and food, and sprout claws of bone and Doc-Ock sickle-chains of blood, and they can make any or all of those permanent. They heal people by devouring their sickness like a goth John Coffee and feeding them revitalizing human flesh like a magic Hannibal Lector. They alone can reach the highest level of necromancy, which lets them do things like animate a necrotech war machine the size of your goddamn house, infuse it with the power of the void, back it up with a summoned hekatonkhire and some shrieking, sped-up zombies, and then make it rain blood for miles around as a backdrop**.
Part of it's the narrative. As part of their indoctrination, every Abyssal is made to understand and accept that there is no escape from the all-consuming void. Everything they love, everything they hate, and everything they don't really give half a shit about is doomed. In the long run, nothing they do matters. An Abyssal hero has decided that though all they do will come to naught someday, someday is not now. Let mad titans gibber in their dreams, let Creation itself reject them, let their powers be designed for hate and murder, here and now they will do good. It's a story I enjoy a lot more than trying to turn back into a Solar.
*Okay, technically you can stunt it as any hit that's going to be extra painful. But it'll always be the dickpunch charm to me.
**I mean, assuming they've got the ~250 motes it'd take to pull all those off at once.
Okay, first off Abyssal Brawl does not need fixing because it already kicks ass. Second, yes that would fit right in.So Abyssal Brawl is like, Alucard when he fights and just goes "lol my arm is broken, whatevs now it's an excellent improvised club"?
I can live with this.
From the previews, Abyssals and Infernals were set up the same way. Ability-based, but themed after their various bosses.
I'm not opposed in principle to Abyssals having some black-painted Solar elements, because. Like. That's literally what they are. Some Solar shards got None More Goth poured all over them until they turned into Abyssals. In practice, though, most of the cool stuff about them comes from moving away from that, q.v. Doc-Ock sickle-chains of blood.Why? I'm not like, leading you on or even disagreeing. but I'd like you to elaborate because I'm curious. There seems to be a bit of a break between thinking it's integral to the space of the Abyssal, and those who don't, but nobody's really talking about why. Granted, since this is Exalted, I imagine this conversation has been had about 11,000 times before and this could all be spared if I could find it somewhere in the depths of this thread, but hey
They are going to have the shittiest defenses, then.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Well, first off, keep in mind that Abyssals have only ever interested me- as a PC splat- in terms of their potential for redemption, but that I also find that storyline a very compelling one. So, that probably colours my answer here.
Well, that's great and all but, you know, maybe somebody wants to use them for any story other than that?
The problem is that everything you describe? That is exactly the same charm set we have and that charm set is terrible. You can't actually make Abyssals more killy than Solars because if they were then they would defeat Solars and that's not something that's going to happen.
So all you end up with is characters that are worse in every way then Solars. They can't be as good at killing as Solars because of primacy of defense, and if all their other stuff is killy that means they suck at everything else because they're also killing stuff while they do it. I can understand that 'forcing the player to have a terrible and sub-optimal charm set that makes them wish they had played another splat' might be great for the whole 'pushing them to redemption' angle but frankly I'd rather be less passive aggressive about it and not ruin the fun of everyone who doesn't play into your One True Way idea at the same time.
It's not like the redemption angle is all that interesting by default. What are you redeeming for, exactly? Deciding not to die? That's like the least compelling redemption arc ever. Nothing in the Abyssal condition even forces you to kill people or commit atrocities or anything like that. You can just... not use your Charms. Go live in a cave in the Underworld. Maybe if you becamme an Abyssal because you did something horrific instead of just dying that might make sense, but as is any redemption story about Abyssal just comes across as being try-hard.
At least giving them horror movie tropes gives them something unique. It's not like it would even cut off redemption stories. I can think of dozens of "man becomes monster and wants to become man again" stories and I don't see any reason not to include that in Abyssal thematics. I just also think it would awesome if you could play Alucard rather than being stuck with Angel all the time. I like Angel, I think its a great series. But sometimes, I want to take Enthusiastic Walks.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Abyssals are the dark twins of the Solars. That is literally the core of their identity. They are these knights of the dead, obviously unnatural, come riding out of the Underworld as emissaries or warlords or murderers or liberator of your dead. They are literally there so that your gold-wreathed Solar can have a clash of black and gold with an opponent wearing an armor of twisted souls where light and darkness erupt all around the landscape.
Of course, that's not all of it; dark twins of the Solars cannot support a full splat on its own. But the stranger and more unique powers of the Abyssals grow out of this base, branch off this dark mirror aspect. Ideally this would be reflected on a moment-to-moment basis; the battle starts with Solar and Abyssal using similar powers, then the more it progresses the more the Abyssal uses bizarre and grotesque abilities until by the end he looks like nothing human.
But if you skip the dark mirror part, you're not designing Abyssals anymore. You are designing your own splat, which superficially resembles Abyssals. Which is great, more power to you; I might even use it if the idea is compelling enough. But I am still going to need actual Abyssals to go with it.
Of course, that's not all of it; dark twins of the Solars cannot support a full splat on its own. But the stranger and more unique powers of the Abyssals grow out of this base, branch off this dark mirror aspect. Ideally this would be reflected on a moment-to-moment basis; the battle starts with Solar and Abyssal using similar powers, then the more it progresses the more the Abyssal uses bizarre and grotesque abilities until by the end he looks like nothing human.
But if you skip the dark mirror part, you're not designing Abyssals anymore. You are designing your own splat, which superficially resembles Abyssals. Which is great, more power to you; I might even use it if the idea is compelling enough. But I am still going to need actual Abyssals to go with it.
- Location
- New York City
I know ghosts were technically playable but sort of stunk before, but have you guys ever seen anyone play a ghost and have fun? Is there a way to play one who has cool abilities but isn't a deprotagonized madness monkey from the Labyrinth or a hateful ghost thing with nothing but funky claws and an urge to terrorize and drink blood? Is having the means to play a ghost actually desirable in spite of that stuff?
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
And Lunars are the mates of the Solars, their lieutenants. That is the core of their identity. Nevermind that it created two editions worth of terrible to sub-par mechanics and themes about as interesting as drying paint. The Abyssals suffer the same problem.
So long as Lunars and Abyssals are defined only in their relation to Solars, or primarily in their relation to Solars, they will never be anything interesting on their own.
What is an interesting Abyssal story in which Solars are never so much as mentioned? Not once. Not even alluded to. I can tell Infernal, and Dragonblooded and Sidereal and Alchemical and even Fair Folk stories without ever once having the concept of a Solar Exalt appear in the campaign. But if Abyssals exist so that Solars can have a dark reflection to fight, how do I avoid that?
Further, if I want to have a dark reflection of the Solar I don't need to go to an Abyssal, I can just use another Solar. Both Batman and The Joker would make excellent Solar characters. Both Holmes and Moriarty are Solars. The closest I get to a Solar/Abyssal dichotomy is Luke/Vader and even then Vader is more Alchemical than Abyssal. Do we really need an entire splat whose job is to literally be the black hats? Is that the best use for them?
Clinging to the idea of Abyssal as dark Solars has crippled the use of them for two editions and counting now. If the dark mirror concept is the seed of the Abyssal idea its a rancid seed whose tree grows poisonous fruit.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I happen to be in agreement with @Aaron Peori here, if a splat is unable to stand for itself and support a unique concept, it is trash. If a splat primarily by it's relationship and contrasts with another splat, it is trash. If a splat is both of these things, it is shitty worthless dross, better cut to save wordcount.
Abyssals should have a rich base of inspiration to draw from, instead of being able to go "i need an Abyssal charm so i'll take a Solar Charm and give it a black paintjob", they should be able to actually have Charms of their own that aren't shitty copies of Deathlord immortality or "look you can act like a Solar now".
Because we've already seen what defining them by their relation to Solars lead to; it leads to a shitty, boring splat that can only run one of two mutually exclusive and rather trite plotlines.
Abyssals should have a rich base of inspiration to draw from, instead of being able to go "i need an Abyssal charm so i'll take a Solar Charm and give it a black paintjob", they should be able to actually have Charms of their own that aren't shitty copies of Deathlord immortality or "look you can act like a Solar now".
Because we've already seen what defining them by their relation to Solars lead to; it leads to a shitty, boring splat that can only run one of two mutually exclusive and rather trite plotlines.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Vader as and Alchemical is the archetypal case of confusing aesthetics for themes. Vader is a cyborg, but this is an essentially cosmetic choice except in so far as it reflects that he has fallen - "more machine than man" is about how cybernetics eat your soul. Vader represents the failure and corruption of the heroic power, the fall of the righteous, the temptation of the dark side. He's no Alchemical.
As for the rest of your post... It all comes down to one of the perennial problems of the Exalted community: determining where stops the baby and where starts the bathwater. To me the failure of past Abyssals was a failure of execution, not of concept. You want to just cut off what's failed before, but to me that's a non-starter, because the result won't be Abyssals.
If you play a dark-Solar-mirror Abyssal in a game without reference to Solars you... Play a guy with cool dark powers that grow into baroque horror powers. It's still cool and it stands on its own.