It's a guy with a sword and a nuclear fusion reactor though. It's really not just a guy with a sword at that point. After all, the Anathema has eaten his soul and now wears him like a human-suit, leaking stolen divine fire through every pore.
This kind of thing, for the record, is exactly what I meant when I talked about choice of words deforming the attitude of the fan community towards the game. Solars are designed to cover this "ridiculously skilled mortal" archetype, from Sherlock Holmes to Iron Man to Satsuki to Jetstream Sam. Yes, in setting they are imbued with a higher power to justify that ability, but when you try taking that in setting justification
to a meta level the entire game breaks down.

This is how we get these incredibly stupid discussions of the late 2e where fans describe the Solars as upstarts lottery-winners and heroic mortals as the real heroes who Earned It With Hard Work (tm).


This eventually leads to sections of the fan community hailing as the great hero representing the peak of human achievement a bloated tentacle horror wielding half a dozen First Age Artifacts (not that he had a hand in making them) and at that point you feel a shiver down your neck, you turn, and you see emeraldtsreak standing at your shoulder.

Smiling.

Do you feel like a hero yet, Exalted fans?
 
This kind of thing, for the record, is exactly what I meant when I talked about choice of words deforming the attitude of the fan community towards the game. Solars are designed to cover this "ridiculously skilled mortal" archetype, from Sherlock Holmes to Iron Man to Satsuki to Jetstream Sam. Yes, in setting they are imbued with a higher power to justify that ability, but when you try taking that in setting justification to a meta level the entire game breaks down.

This is how we get these incredibly stupid discussions of the late 2e where fans describe the Solars as upstarts lottery-winners and heroic mortals as the real heroes who Earned It With Hard Work (tm).

Nah, I've run and played in 1E games where the sci-fi angle is played up extensively and "autonomous rampant titan-killer drone with free will and no more titans to kill" is taken entirely straightforwardly and it worked just fine.

Really, the point of the Solar game in my view is to throw your atomic god-king weight around and play world conquest geopolitical brinksmanship games with the elemental supersoldier hegemon (which conveniently doesn't have access to their strategic nuclear arsenal right now) and the Heavenly KGB (after we GM fiat their strategic arsenal of orbital killsats out of the game, to be fair). This doesn't particularly require me to play any heroic narrative tropes straight, y'know.
 
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Nah, I've run and played in 1E games where the sci-fi angle is played up extensively and "autonomous rampant titan-killer drone with free will and no more titans to kill" is taken entirely straightforwardly and it worked just fine.

Really, the point of the Solar game in my view is to throw your atomic god-king weight around and play world conquest geopolitical brinksmanship games with the elemental supersoldier hegemon (which conveniently doesn't have access to their strategic nuclear arsenal right now) and the Heavenly KGB (after we GM fiat their strategic arsenal of orbital killsats out of the game, to be fair). This doesn't particularly require me to play any heroic narrative tropes straight, y'know.
I don't doubt it can work fine. There are many concepts that can be handled just fine by the right group and produce compelling stories and games. My contention is that it's not a good place to put the game's baseline for many reasons - many of which, of course, are very subjective; but I do think there is an element of negative distortion of the game that occurs when this becomes the basic approach to Exalted. When someone argues that fucking Jetstream Sam is a mortal, and moreover that to represent him as a Solar is "demeaning," Exalted has basically failed on a fundamental level.

It's also really weird for me to see the "point" of the game being described as thermonuclear world-power brinksmanship, given how few characters in games I've run or played had such grand scope and ambition. I don't doubt it exist, and I have plans to run a game of that style myself at some point; but seeing it described as the point of the line seems as weird to me as, I imagine, it would be to you if I said Exalted is strictly for Jubei vs the Eight Devils of Kimon.
 
I'm surprised at you, Chung. I never thought I'd see you pull the, "it works for my game just fine," as justification for a statement about an aspect of the game in general, considering how many people have tried to draw that card in order to say Paranoia Combat either doesn't exist or is radically overestimated as a threat.
 
I'm surprised at you, Chung. I never thought I'd see you pull the, "it works for my game just fine," as justification for a statement about an aspect of the game in general, considering how many people have tried to draw that card in order to say Paranoia Combat either doesn't exist or is radically overestimated as a threat.

Mate, we're talking fluff emphasis. Exactly how is this like paranoia combat? That thing bites you in the ass whatever you do as long as you run the system in the book, and as time and xp increases the probability of disaster approaches 1. The story arc of the game does not contain a profusion of "whoops, TPK!" mechanical landmines for your poor group to step on.

If I spend more time talking about the city street grid for Arcology Chiaroscuro than Solar Bob's glistening pecs, this does not cause the entire game to break down in the same way that something extremely funny happens when I make five guys attack Solar Bob, no matter what they say beforehand.
 
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>holding Exalted.
>playing Exalted.

I dunno man, the facts disagree with you. :V

Picture, if you will, the impossible scenario of an Exalted system which doesn't suck. It's theoretically possible, yes? Should such a unicorn-like entity exist, then, would this not be fine?

It might even be able to handle running "Titan Killer Unit in Post-Post-Post-Apocalyptic Alien World" or "Heroic Shiny Golden Glowing Hero Wuxia Fantasy" without doing more than changing the GM's emphasis on tone and style.
 
Picture, if you will, the impossible scenario of an Exalted system which doesn't suck. It's theoretically possible, yes? Should such a unicorn-like entity exist, then, would this not be fine?

Are you on drugs?

It might even be able to handle running "Titan Killer Unit in Post-Post-Post-Apocalyptic Alien World" or "Heroic Shiny Golden Glowing Hero Wuxia Fantasy" without doing more than changing the GM's emphasis on tone and style.

You're on drugs Chung.
 
Today, the 24th of october of the year 2016, one of us lost all of his sanity.

RIP Jon Chung: maybe you shouldn't have snorted the suspicious multicolored swirling cloud. There was no talkative and more knowledgable about Exalted hat than you.
 
When someone argues that fucking Jetstream Sam is a mortal, and moreover that to represent him as a Solar is "demeaning," Exalted has basically failed on a fundamental level.
I suppose my tone wasn't quite exaggerated enough for comic effect, but here we go: Sam's big reveal in the story is he's the dude who Somehow keeps pace with technological superhumans without the powers. That is his whole gimmick, his keystone denouement after all the shit he's put you through. So yes, taking that concept and inserting it into Exalted as "but really nah, he's a dude with superhuman powers" is kinda missing the point of that moment and character, because of fucking course you can make him a Solar. You can twist just about anyone into being a Solar wearing a funny hat if you don't care what that character was intending to be or say. But that's just not interesting at all, because "okay, they did something pretty cool, they're an Exalt" is the Default Assumption at work.

This is why "convert a historical figure into an Exalt" threads and the like got super-fucking-tiresome, because in the end it simply came down to listing names and what Solar Caste they'd be, because who would be anything else unless they were Fireburn Von Magmatube, hotheaded inventor of the rotary flamethrower? But then again, inventor, that's gotta mean Twilight, right? In media, this train of thought extends even worse to those things just too far outside the Solar aesthetic, because then Every shapeshifter, animal-man or Cheshire cat is a potential Lunar, every robot an Alchemical, every skull-painted edgelord is an Abyssal waiting in the wings, and so on.

Its both Obvious and Uninteresting because its not saying anything worthwhile with the sheer array of options at work within Creation which are not "what Exalt-type color is their costume, and what do they do for a living." Blue box goes in square-shaped hole, everyone claps and feels super smart for this unforeseen and compelling insight. Why can't someone just be seen as a suped-up mortal with cool gear? Or a godblooded champion? Or a ghost, or a fair folk, or an transformed animal in human shape? Why is the question when non-PC Exalts aren't onscreen always, "what are the other Exalted doing?" Any answer starting with "but its the title of the game" can fuck right off, because that's an intended reference to the player party, not summarizing every story ever to be told with the damn thing.

Its a reductive and honestly boring mindset which is more harmful to games than any amount of "wrong phrasing" misrepresenting portions of the setting, as though any/all problems with the game are the result of people not talking about it the right way. No, the problem comes from attempting to boil everything down into the least engaging, most rote and dry "no shit" interpretations of any given thing, demanding it all be sorted away into the proper boxes and then getting fussy about how everything is so codified and sterile now.

If only Godblooded or ghosts were cooler, maybe we should make an Exalt-type for that?
 
Here's the thing. Heroic Mortal vs Exalt, both in specialty, is not a fight. It's onesided slaughter. Gundam against lone generic mook suit level slaughter. Which means if Armstrong and Raiden are exalts? So is Jetstream Sam, because he actually fought them both evenly, and heroic mortals do not fight evenly against combat-spec Exalts. Sam's theme is not actually compatible with Exalted the setting.
 
Objection.

Satsuki from Kill la Kill, a girl so Solar she produces random sun-flares whenever she makes dramatic pronouncements, whose heel-clicks can be heard from a kilometre away, and whose eyebrows are a wonder of the world [1].

(Oh yeah, and is a blender with a sword, saw a suit of armour that no baseline human could ever wear and went and wore it anyway, and who once escaped from jail using only her sharpened right toenail as a weapon)

[1] Her mother is also excellent Solar inspiration, for what happens when a Twilight goes off the deep end and decides that fashion and aesthetics is the reason for existence.

I believe you misspelled Satsuki KIIIRRRRYUUUIIIIIIN!
 
To be honest, I saw Jetstream Sam as a Fire Aspect.

He's got a fiery motif, a red jade sword, an "underdog but not really" aspect, and he's noted as the latest scion of a proud warrior family who inherited his blade from his father. Plus he fits into the Earth Aspect (Sundowner), Water/Wood Aspect (Mistral), Air Aspect (Monsoon) thing the Desperadoes had going, for a Wyld Hunt who've gone renegade and started working under a Solar Dynast (Armstrong).

I will say that it never made much sense to me that the Four Winds recruited a guy called "Jetstream Sam" and went "this guy needs a themed wind, let's call him Minuano".

like guys

it's already in his name
 
Ultimately the problem with having Jetstream Sam being a heroic or even enlightened mortal in Exalted is that...

Well, Exalted isn't fair in the way Metal Gear of modern comic superheroes are. You don't get to be Batman or Jetstream Sam. Vanilla mortals without an Exaltation can be exceptional individuals but they don't get to humiliate Exalts in their area of specialty. The peak mortal swordsman in the world would struggle against a fresh faced House of Bells graduate and be little more than a speedbump against a combat specced Celestial Exalt.

In the world of Exalted if Batman fought Superman than Superman reduces Batman to a fine red mist. The thematics of Exalted's setting don't work well with these 'normal guys who take down gods' narratives that some stories like to tell. If you wanted to play Sam in an Exalted game he would almost certainly be a Solar or at least a Dragonblooded. Yeah, you don't get a perfect one to one correlation but... well, you shouldn't.

If someone comes up to me and says "I want to play this exact character" I would tell them "No, you can play someone almost like that character but altered to fit Exalted's setting and themes" and if they weren't happy with that I'd shrug and wish them well in another game. You can't play a Jedi in Exalted but you can certainly play an Immaculate Monk. You can't play Spiderman in Exalted but you can certainly play a Spider Totem Lunar who fights various godblooded villains in Nexus while hiding his true identity from the Wyld Hunt.
 
The peak mortal swordsman in the world would struggle against a fresh faced House of Bells graduate and be little more than a speedbump against a combat specced Celestial Exalt.
Which to me, opens the door for "price of power" stories where you have said peak mortal selling himself to a god in exchange for power, or wielding a Thirsting Blade (or some other corruptive Artifact) just because it's the only option he has at hand to up his game.
 
Which to me, opens the door for "price of power" stories where you have said peak mortal selling himself to a god in exchange for power, or wielding a Thirsting Blade (or some other corruptive Artifact) just because it's the only option he has at hand to up his game.
I think there's totally room for a Solar having butchered his way through an army, only to, Shadow of Mordor style, have a survivor of said fight return to confront him for revenge. Only this time, he has more than his previously unknown masteful skills - he's got something to, if not level the playing field, at least demand his attention. He might not last very long, but it would be pretty fucking sick.
 
I think there's totally room for a Solar having butchered his way through an army, only to, Shadow of Mordor style, have a survivor of said fight return to confront him for revenge. Only this time, he has more than his previously unknown masteful skills - he's got something to, if not level the playing field, at least demand his attention. He might not last very long, but it would be pretty fucking sick.

Well, that is one of the big things for Abyssal Exaltations to do - be a punishment for PCs murdering entire armies by giving someone the power to extract vengeance. It might even hint to the PCs that they had it coming. :p
 
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