The issue is that, once again, this doesn't any real new depth to the setting's portrayal of the First Age, and in some ways actively undermines it. If the Solars are truly not that different from the Primordials they replaced then the Usurpation loses it's tragedy: the Bronze Faction was right and the Solars were monsters.
Well, first, and this is as much my mistake as anyone elses, but putting this at the feet of the Solars is off: this was early deliberative, so it was almost certainly the Host as a whole that acted, and the entire Exalted host shares the blame.

Secondly, the message is that they're similar to the Primordials in that this would be an age of man, not other beings. The Primordials ruled, and allowed no peers, just as the Exalted would. This has been a pretty clear element of the work for a long time, so I'm not sure why ES keeping it suddenly means so much. The Bronze faction doesn't relate, or at least not in a way that looks good for them. At best you could say they moved when 'the Exalted' turned into 'the Solars', but that doesn't really make them better.
 
As for your third point, I think it shows how the Solars are not so different from the Primordials they replaced: the genocide they preformed against the Primordial war races is generally in terms of war, and a war that these races generally didn't seem inclined to surrender in. It's terrible, but it's a terrible that still seems rather sane. Meanwhile, they just destroyed one of their former allies. I think that sends a stronger message.

As I see it, when it comes down to it, tensions between the People of Adamant and the Exalted are inevitable. The Dragon Kings are humanity's elderly parents - they're traumatised and smashed, with their population permanently reduced to a fraction of what they once were. They'll never be rivals to the Exalted. The Exalted can be magnanimous because the power disparity has shifted.

But in my conception of the People of Adamant? They live in the broad Terrestrial to slightly-sub-Terrestrial ballpark, at the cost of much, much longer reproductive times (making new adamant bodies is a bitch). There's plenty of them. They have Jade-Born soldiers that they can produce in large numbers. They're not going to bow at the knee to the Exalted. As far as they're concerned, they're the chosen people of Autochthon, and they're peers to the Exalted host - not servants, not vassals, not underlings. They're an allied empire, not some tribute-paying client.

So, no, Exalts are honoured guests in their lands - but nothing more than guests. The demesnes in their territory are theirs. They lay claim to much of the Blessed Isle around the Pole of Earth because it's their ancestral home and they're not going to let humans - who originally come from the East - colonise their lands. They don't even acknowledge the "Mandate of Heaven" because they owe allegiance to Autochthon and thus the Sun had no right to give domain over their parts of Creation to his human pets.

And the Exalted looked at these Primordial servants denying them their gloriously-won triumph - and, well, the inevitable happened.
 
It means so much because making the Exalted host become teamkilling genocidal fucktards while most Exalts still remembered fighting alongside the people they are now teamkilling has always been really really dumb. And a lot of us have higher expectations of ES then of the actual devs.

Edit: An interesting perspective from ES. Though it's still pretty damn psychotic to start teamkilling your allies because they rejected your vassalization demand. I kind of prefer the obvious and semi-obvious evils of the First age to start later, and genocidal teamkilling is really goddamn evil.
 
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It means so much because making the Exalted host become teamkilling genocidal fucktards while most Exalts still remembered fighting alongside the people they are now teamkilling has always been really really dumb. And a lot of us have higher expectations of ES then of the actual devs.
Except they weren't killing the people they fought with. They were killing their comrade's slave masters.

And it's not like they didn't have first hand experience with how groups you don't really control can screw you over big time.
 
Except they weren't killing the people they fought with. They were killing their comrade's slave masters.

And it's not like they didn't have first hand experience with how groups you don't really control can screw you over big time.
The Jadeborn were made in ES's version to replace combat losses. So, yeah, they were teamkilling.

And the People of Adamant were being jackasses there, abiet ones who were right about the problem and maybe wrong about the solution, but not remotely the level of jackass that makes genocidal teamkilling not late 2E TED evil.
 
...I fail to see how 'allies for this war, now it's over' and 'we're now going to war with you if you don't listen to us' makes the Exalted 'genocidal teamkilling assholes'.

It's not like people in history haven't done it.

Opinions, circumstances, and objectives change. I highly doubt the Exalted immediately started murdering the People of Adamant. The capital of the Solars was originally in the East. By the time they reached the People of Adamant, they'd stopped being 'hardcore allies' and more 'some other guys the Sun said we get to rule over'.
 
The Jadeborn were made in ES's version to replace combat losses. So, yeah, they were teamkilling.

And the People of Adamant were being jackasses there, abiet ones who were right about the problem and maybe wrong about the solution, but not remotely the level of jackass that makes genocidal teamkilling not late 2E TED evil.
...I may be reading it wrong, but if I'm not, the basic idea is that they People of Adamant refused to fight directly at all, and made the Jadeborn specifically to be slave-soldiers while they stayed home safe manning the production lines for them, and the Exalts only ever directly interacted with the Jadeborn, who did all the work, while the Adamants took the credit despite doing nothing beyond making them. To put it another way, they were the factory workers, the Jadeborn were the veterans, and once the war was over they treated the veterans as slaves, and the foreign comrades to those veterans saw the people they fought alongside as more important and the Adamant as being arrogant towards them.
 
I think part of the issue is the presentation, here; because it's presented as a one-off line with no nuance, it comes as "So the Exalted went a'genociding" with no other context, no indication of diplomatic solutions (among others, if Autochthon had not yet fled, as the section implied, why not just make him intervene, like is already the canon?), nothing. Now it doesn't sound like that's what ES meant, but it's pretty much what I read.

An offhand mention of "And then the Exalted killed everyone" is going to draw a lot more ire than an actually described segment that gives context and reasoning to the action.
 
Time to bring up a bunch of old quotes because it's late and I just got home!
I never liked that bit. What does it even mean, to say that your essence pool contains a nuke's worth of energy?

Of course, your mote pool can also fuel a Total Annihilation, so there's a more direct meaning.
This is actually why I dislike many of the sorceries: They're too expensive! They say your mote pool is a nuke-equivalent, but the canon Total Annihilation doesn't approach anywhere near the destructive force of even the earliest atomic bombs. I understand the game balance aspect of it, but its just a big let-down to read this really cool description and then get to the disappointing stats list.

But you don't want to create internet! You want to start the industrial revolution.

No, i want a Second circle with metalurgic knowledge that i can adapt to quickstart industry to XVIII tech.
"What is an industrial revolution? What's an industry? Why are they revolting? Do I need to suppress the peasants again?"
I get your enthusiasm, but this sort of thinking is meta-gaming. An in-character Solar wouldn't set the groundwork for an Information Age civilization because he doesn't have any clue what one looks like. He would build a better windmill, not a telegraph wire.
 
1000 pages!

That's quite something.

You're talking about people who consider recurve bows to be scary foreign military developments – they are not going to grok laser guns. If a laser gun survives from ancient times, it will be regarded as magic, and there will be ritual requirements for its use, like keeping the sacred lens of pure crystal polished and clean, or placing its solar battery out in the sun and beseeching the Sun god to instil it with his burning wrath.

Of course, in this setting it really is magic. And the ritual requirements might not be quite so analogous to real-world technical requirements.

My preferred first age doesn't make the magic quite so tech-y. Tamed rivers that carry people seem more fitting than trains.

Yeah, and when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union and started killing all the slavs, he was a genocidal (arguably) teamkilling asshole.

Man, teamkilling isn't even on the top 10 list of problems with Hitler. I don't think the German attempt to exterminate the Slavic peoples would've been any more acceptable without the German-Russian pact.

Similarly, killing the people of Adamant is/was/would be a horrible sin. Previous alliances don't really matter to that.
 
I get your enthusiasm, but this sort of thinking is meta-gaming. An in-character Solar wouldn't set the groundwork for an Information Age civilization because he doesn't have any clue what one looks like. He would build a better windmill, not a telegraph wire.
Depends on the in-character Solar, really.

Solar Tesla may have been born from a village of baked mud, but he always knew there was more. One day he looked into the sun and saw the perfect prayer engine, knew how it worked and knew, above all else, that he needed to build it. He's haunted by vague memories of a previous life, compelled to wander deeper and deeper into the woods, far beyond all civilization. He finds an old tomb of a golden material he somehow knows is Orichalcum, despite never having laid eyes on it before. He has a million ideas of things he can make with it.

Within the tomb, he finds riches beyond imagination, but previous above all else, he finds a staff, still clutched in the hands of a long-dead skeleton. It's his staff, he knows that somehow. It's a miracle given form, the product of one of Creation's greatest geniuses, made possible only by a trillion different innovations over millennia. The tomb itself is covered in symbols, abstract drawings of great factories, of tools and techniques he'd never even dreamed of.

Solar Tesla leaves the tomb, staff in hand, with new resolution. He's going to bring light back to Creation, no matter what it takes. He doesn't know how to get there yet–he has some vague ideas, of course, but nothing concrete–but he knows where he's going.
 
This is actually why I dislike many of the sorceries: They're too expensive! They say your mote pool is a nuke-equivalent, but the canon Total Annihilation doesn't approach anywhere near the destructive force of even the earliest atomic bombs. I understand the game balance aspect of it, but its just a big let-down to read this really cool description and then get to the disappointing stats list.
Come to the 3e darkside! We have sorcery that does not deplete your precious essence. Also, cookies.

An in-character Solar wouldn't set the groundwork for an Information Age civilization because he doesn't have any clue what one looks like. He would build a better windmill, not a telegraph wire.
The Blessed Isle does have an extensive telegraph (semaphore) network, so you're probably right that he's not going to be building better telegraph wire.
 
I'm not sure I like the way this conflates sorcery with the other magic of the setting. I appreciate that sorcery is different-in-kind from the way that, say, a Fire Aspect channels Essence to make a flaming sword, whereas a red jade flaming daiklave could actually operate on similar principles to what the Fire Aspect is doing.

Feature, not a bug. This ensures that if your "Flaming Sword" spell is balanced, so is your flaming sword artefact. It reduces the instances of cross-splat mechanics and makes them standardised. This is desirable.

Now, on a setting rather than mechanical level, sorcery is the structured manipulation of Essence in predictable fixed ways. Artefacts manipulate essence in predictable fixed ways, based around their structure. To my way of thinking, artefacts should resemble sorcery more than they do native Charms.
 
Now, on a setting rather than mechanical level, sorcery is the structured manipulation of Essence in predictable fixed ways. Artefacts manipulate essence in predictable fixed ways, based around their structure. To my way of thinking, artefacts should resemble sorcery more than they do native Charms.

At that point it loses some of the otherworldliness of sorcery, honestly, and it actually seems a little weird that you need to undergo a bunch of complicated trials to become a sorcerer.

I see why you are doing it, I see why it makes sense to you, I just happened to like the distinctions that are erased by this.

edit: also, in your view of sorcery, what separates the Celestial and Solar circles of sorcery from the Terrestrial?
 
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Though I'm rather late to the party, I'll tell you of my version of the people of Adamant, shamelessly stolen from a combination of the Zerg from Starcraft, the Bohrok from BIONICLE and the "Locust" part of the Locust Crusade.

The People of Jade
"Once, there was a smith-king who was very skilled but not very liked, some would even call him unlikeable. The one thing that this smith-king liked, was the act of creation, he created many weapons and tools and much more that would go down in history, but that is another story. This is a story of the chittering of insects, of life from jade, and of a single smith-king's hatred and despair.

Now, this smith-king was very lonely, for all of his brothers and sisters hated him and mocked him and laughed at him, so one day when he walked a stroll through the Creation under our Creation, he found a big deposit of jade, now since this smith had helped build the Creation under Creation, this did not surprise him, for jade was the natural way.

But inside the jade, he found those folk so fair from the outside of creation, mighty Rakshasa princes and their hundred concubines and hundred warriors and many merchants, all frozen inside this single block of jade. At first, the smith-king was curious, and he spent much time examining it, and all his children, who were ministers in his kingdom looked at it and marvelled. And they all thought it was beautiful.

A single cockroach was out walking, and the smith-king saw this and asked of it "go fetch me a locust", and the cockroach had to obey this, for the smith-king was very powerful and it did not want to anger him, so it ran all the way to fetch a locust, and they both ran all the way down in those deep, dark, winding tunnels again.

And the smith took the locust, and he made of it a hammer, and said "now, the spark of genius is lit!", and the smith took the cockroach and made of it a chisel and said "may it burn 'til my work is done!".

And hammered and chiseled at the jade until he had brought out all of the concubines and all of the warriors and all of the merchants and their prince and all his splendor.

And he saw that they were dead, so he made something new of them.

He brought a hundred locust wings, and a hundred shells, and a hundred scything mantis claws, and many other wonders, and he set to work.

And from the hundred concubines and hundred merchants, he forged four Workers, and they were the first of the Worker Caste.

And from the hundred warriors, he forged two mighty Soldiers, and they were the first of the Soldier Caste.

And from the mighty prince, he forged a single Artisan to be the first of the Artisan Caste.

He then spoke to the Workers and said "Here, I bless upon you, the compound eyes of the flies, so you may see. I bless upon you, the carapace of the cockroach and the diligence of the ant and the devotion of the scarab."

And it was so.

He then spoke to the Soldiers and said "Here, I bless upon you, the eyes of the wolf spider, so you may hunt and kill. I bless upon you, the scything talons of the mantis and the wings of the locust and the strength of the goliath beetle."

And it was so.

He then spoke to the Artisan and said "Here, I bkess upon you, the wings of the dragonfly, so you may be raised above your kin. I bless upon you, the body of humankind and the carapace of many thousand insects."

And it was so.

And finally, the smith-king said to them.

"To you, Worker, I grant the gift of Tools. You shall work and toil, to bring the jade-folk many bounties."

"To you, Soldier, I grant the gift of Dogma. You shall act with perfect coordination and unshakable devotion."

"And to you, Artisan, I grant the gift of Faith. You alone shall bear the spark of genius, and you alone shall know that you always act with nothing but the highest intentions."

And the Great Maker saw that it was good."

So my Jade-folk are human-sized (and bigger) insect creatures that create hives in the depths of the world below, controlled by alien, but still so terrifyingly human Artisans who always act with the very best intentions (because they know that, don't they?), that command hundreds of huge, mantis-ant-goliath beetle Soldiers who watch over even more delegations of Workers who slowly dig through the ground, aimlessly expanding tunnels deeper and deeper into the darkness.
 
Feature, not a bug. This ensures that if your "Flaming Sword" spell is balanced, so is your flaming sword artefact. It reduces the instances of cross-splat mechanics and makes them standardised. This is desirable.

Now, on a setting rather than mechanical level, sorcery is the structured manipulation of Essence in predictable fixed ways. Artefacts manipulate essence in predictable fixed ways, based around their structure. To my way of thinking, artefacts should resemble sorcery more than they do native Charms.

The problem here is that it destroys the origins of sorcery. If Artifacts are just "permanent Sorcery" than the Exalted host should have been covered in sorcery swag throughout the Primordial War and when the Yozi tried to tempt Bridget with the power of Sorcery she should have been "You mean like that thing literally every single other Solar has a dozen examples of in their manse?" rather than "What a new and unique power that defies description and which offers unique and unusual effects beyond the limits of the Solar ability for which I can be famous."

And frankly, if you make Bridget's story less interesting I don't really care how much more mechanically balanced your idea is, I'm just going to not use it because for me Interesting Story comes first and Mechanical Balance comes second.
 
Feature, not a bug. This ensures that if your "Flaming Sword" spell is balanced, so is your flaming sword artefact. It reduces the instances of cross-splat mechanics and makes them standardised. This is desirable.
So you basically give something similar to 3E Invocations to the artifacts, and balance them against other Charms in a more-or-less standardized power level?
 
... So I just noticed this thread has the same initials as Ghost-Eating Technique. Amusing, that.

Anyway, is anyone here interested in helping me write up a bureaucracy system? I'm going to need one for my oMage game anyway. (That does mean it'll have to be somewhat edition-neutral, but honestly the bureaucracy system should be be splat-independent, just with easy hooks for Charms or Spheres.)

(also @Revlid check your Skype >.>)
 
Anyway, is anyone here interested in helping me write up a bureaucracy system? I'm going to need one for my oMage game anyway. (That does mean it'll have to be somewhat edition-neutral, but honestly the bureaucracy system should be be splat-independent, just with easy hooks for Charms or Spheres.)
Possibly: it depends on what you mean by a bureaucracy system. Do you mean rules for managing organization, rules for organization more generally (interacting with each other or as otherwise independent entities), rules for characters interacting with organizations from a non-managerial perspective, or something I haven't listed here?
 
Possibly: it depends on what you mean by a bureaucracy system. Do you mean rules for managing organization, rules for organization more generally (interacting with each other or as otherwise independent entities), rules for characters interacting with organizations from a non-managerial perspective, or something I haven't listed here?
All of the above. "Rules for mundane interaction with organizations."
 
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