General Exalted Thread

[Gnarker]

While I know basically nothing about Jadeborn and Darkbrood and stuff, one thing to consider is this:
Shadowlands, and yes, I know that at this point I'm basically showing a downright obsession with the Underworld, but bear with me. Anyway, Shadowlands are closed to the Underworld at day because the Sun's light repulses anything to do with the dead.

In the deep places of the world, in dark caves and the abyssal oceanfloors, there isn't any sunlight.
Meaning, if a shadowland were to form there, there's nothing much keeping it from merging with Creation in a deeper way than it would on the surface. So if you get deep enough the world could very well become rather warped in places, with a Darkbrood equivalent being one possible result of this.

For that matter, the same might happen on the surface, when perpetual rain-, snow-, sand-, or ashclouds or particularly thick forest canopies turn day into eternal night, and the Underworld - or the Wyld - encroaches.

At the same time, it's also just another one of those things that just can happen, occasionally, so it doesn't turn into a game-consuming creation-spanning thing, but instead can be used as desired.

 

[linkhyrule5]

Hm. Actually, here's a question: What if you brought in, say, Misho Thrice-Radiant? Skip the "rediscover the laws of physics" step, so you're only left with the infrastructure problems.

Which are huge, sure. But I imagine if you cut out half the problem you'll get twice as far. You'll never get to plasma cannons or even AKs, but you might get to rifles, as it were. How far could a Solar that had Craft (First Age) 5 get within the bounds of a game?

 

[pheonix89]

That depends on how you define "high-end artifact", I think. Certainly, the Wonders of the First Age would be out of reach.

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I'm thinking anything past two dots or so generally requires specialist equipment. Though what specialist equipment means can vary, I suspect. 4/5 dot stuff? Forget it without a long series of tool to make tools.

Mind, I'm fond of the Kerisgame magical materials rewrite where the standard equipment with better materials artifact family is flatly kicked out of artifact land, so artifact production isn't actually needed for good weapons.

I say generally because something like the Cherub Shrine from Kerisgame gets a substantial chunk of it production difficulty "requirement" from needing a sorcerer to make the thing.

Hm. Actually, here's a question: What if you brought in, say, Misho Thrice-Radiant? Skip the "rediscover the laws of physics" step, so you're only left with the infrastructure problems.

Which are huge, sure. But I imagine if you cut out half the problem you'll get twice as far. You'll never get to plasma cannons or even AKs, but you might get to rifles, as it were. How far could a Solar that had Craft (First Age) 5 get within the bounds of a game?

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Depends on how much support and opposition he has. And hopefully step one is WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN. On very durable materials, preferably ones that will not likely be destructively repurposed.

 

[Sol Mark-1]

I liked the Sun Star, it is sad E3 removed it.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Mind, I'm fond of the Kerisgame magical materials rewrite where the standard equipment with better materials artifact family is flatly kicked out of artifact land, so artifact production isn't actually needed for good weapons.

I say generally because something like the Cherub Shrine from Kerisgame gets a substantial chunk of it production difficulty "requirement" from needing a sorcerer to make the thing.

Click to shrink...

The general thing we're leaning towards for Kerisgame artefacts is the idea that an artefact is literally a "solid state spell". So the Cherub Shrine is an excellent example of that - it's a backpack-sized shrine that casts Infallible Messenger and charges up from ambient air essence (which is why it gets damaged by being used in the Underworld). Artefact weapons? Either have the same statline as the mundane version, or their "spell" is a buff a la Wood Dragon's Claw. A Glasswing Lance is a lance that also functions as an artillery piece because it can be used to cast Death of Obsidian Butterflies - which means in the modern era, it either gets carried to battlefield by some Dragonblooded hero or it's put on a cart and used as a field gun.

If we properly revise things, that probably would mean Keris' Grief Choking Lance becomes essentially a mundane spear that casts some kind of snake-based spell when handled right, either with the blade darting out to attack people or some kind of buff.

Now, that has some interesting synergy with the fact that the ideas thrown around for Sorcery is that it's "fuelled by Backgrounds" - which means an Artefact is just a pre-prepared sorcerous background that can be used by non-sorcerers.

 

[xenondestroyer]

So, I had an idea for a new charm of SWLiHN, and I'd like comments and feedback on it-

Spoiler: BIT Charm

BILOCATING INSIGHT TERMINAL
Cost: 10m, 1wp ; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-OK, Sorcerous, Obvious, Pantheon
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Invasive Exteroception Technique, Utility-Engine Cabochon

There are situations where the Principle of Hierarchy desires to inspect more than a place at a time. Where others would find it problematic, she simply sends a lesser part of herself, for everything in her hierarchy is herself.
The warlock focuses her will, congealing it into a form of malfean crystal, no bigger than a human torso and no smaller than a human fist.
This terminal will then slowly orbit around the warlock, or it can be mentally fixated into space with a thought as if it were a construct of its prerequisite.
For the purposes of Invasive Exteroception Technique, the warlock considers the terminal as herself, receiving the feedback of her remote feelers as if she was present on the location of the terminal.
This terminal only works within the same realm of existence- leaving behind a terminal causes its collapse as if destroyed.
The terminal counts as a construct made with Utility-Engine Cabochon for the purposes of Mind-Hand Manipulation Telekinesis.
If the terminal is destroyed, the feedback of losing a lesser part of herself causes the warlock to lose 1wp. Otherwise she may physically touch the terminal and reabsorb it into herself, ending the charm with no consequences.
A repurchase at essence 5 allows the warlock to create a total of (Essence-1) terminals.

Eventual Heretical upgrades to allow other sensing charms through it. Also, other senses at all, like hearing and sight- any thoughts?

 

[Graveless]

Out of curiosity, what did you need polar integration for?

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My players decided that the best way to find one of the gates to Yu-Shan, without letting anyone know what they were searching for, was to fly a circular spiral starting from their capital city that increased in radius by one mile with every rotation.

I was taking multi-variable calculus at the time and one of my players was a TA for the course.

@vicky_molokh , I was mostly thinking of the DND 3.5 to 4 edition wars as well. There were people who got banned from some of my local gaming stores because of how angry they got when the topic came up.

On the topic of artifacts and Solars, I really like the kerisgame changes to and might convert all of the artifact 1 and 2's in my next game to something like that, assuming I run 2e with non-new players again at any point.

I really wish that Solars had been designed with needing to use tools or taking a tool and making it perform as perfectly as possible in mind. At one point I tried to do a charm re write for them along that theme, but it wound up being far too much work.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

We want a bureaucracy sysyem becaus we've been promised one for well over a decade now and it has not been delivered. Part of what made exalted interesting is that ot has two skills that are basically government oriented, it has vast bureaucracies mortal and celestial that are supposwdly interactable. yet after three editions, I still can't get decent rules for running a damn business.

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I wouldn't say a Bureaucracy system-I'd say a 'large scale organizations' system. As to why such a system might be actually useful-sure, you could just go around and play Civ forever and not really do things on the character scale but REIGN manages fairly well with the primary rules-interaction between your character scale actions and your organization literally being "if your character does X thing and succeeds he adds dice to your organization's roll."

As to why people want a bureaucracy system? A system for this kind of large-scale working is a good place and tool to inform people of the kind of life people in the Second Age live. It's a good place to ground the Exalted-because as powerful as a Solar is they can't be everywhere and thus the majority of people and technology they rely on will have to be mundane tools (or artifacts mortals can create) used by mundane people.

And sometimes, you might have things you need to do but just want to abstract the fuck out of it, and have guidelines as to that. "Okay, I want to conquer this village because it has good farming soil and my empire needs food but I'm busy fighting against the Realm on this other front-lemme just send a thousand angry Tiger Warriors with swords to do it." Alternatively, it can generate plot hooks. "I want to build a gigantic gold plated overcompensation pyramid but to do that I need gold mines, which are available here, but they're protected by this Realm force there...

Sure, you can do this all with just fiat. That's fine. But having a system helps those of us who aren't endlessly creative fonts of wonder do it-and can be educational as well. Rulesets tell you what is or isn't important and can incentivize or disincentivize behavior and create interesting plot hooks. If your ruleset for empire management, for example, goes "overcrowded cities may get diseased, which reduces (certain stats) and is generally bad for you because (game mechanic), but you can prevent disease by keeping your cities from being too crowded or by building infrastructure, which requires (time) and (resources)" suddenly this both informs you of pressures that actually exist for other factions-and gives you a situation you can respond to. Do you take nearby territory by force and use natural migratory pressures to relieve overpopulation? Do you put in a population quota to keep your city from contracting the plague? Do you build sewers and aqueducts with your glorious solar arete which make your city a more tempting target?

Like, even if there's no strict dice rolling there I'd call it a system-something like Underground had no real dice rolling for the social indicator system, but that was a system nontheless.

 

[Kuciwalker]

The general thing we're leaning towards for Kerisgame artefacts is the idea that an artefact is literally a "solid state spell". So the Cherub Shrine is an excellent example of that - it's a backpack-sized shrine that casts Infallible Messenger and charges up from ambient air essence (which is why it gets damaged by being used in the Underworld). Artefact weapons? Either have the same statline as the mundane version, or their "spell" is a buff a la Wood Dragon's Claw. A Glasswing Lance is a lance that also functions as an artillery piece because it can be used to cast Death of Obsidian Butterflies - which means in the modern era, it either gets carried to battlefield by some Dragonblooded hero or it's put on a cart and used as a field gun.

If we properly revise things, that probably would mean Keris' Grief Choking Lance becomes essentially a mundane spear that casts some kind of snake-based spell when handled right, either with the blade darting out to attack people or some kind of buff.

Now, that has some interesting synergy with the fact that the ideas thrown around for Sorcery is that it's "fuelled by Backgrounds" - which means an Artefact is just a pre-prepared sorcerous background that can be used by non-sorcerers.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure I like the way this conflates sorcery with the other magic of the setting. I appreciate that sorcery is different-in-kind from the way that, say, a Fire Aspect channels Essence to make a flaming sword, whereas a red jade flaming daiklave could actually operate on similar principles to what the Fire Aspect is doing.

 

[Omicron]

1E was all fiat iirc, and 2E had Mandate of Heaven (which was literally unfinished on release and referenced rules that didn't exist). I'm not sure "been promised" is the right phrase, as the devs were pretty unambiguous that they didn't want a hyper-detailed bureaucracy system from the beginning.

I think what they need is, rather than a detailed subsystem, is simply a guide on how to run and arbitrate things in the existing projects system.

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Not really "from the beginning." Post-Masters of Jade, they were pretty enthusiastic about that notion. They actually did create such a system for Ex3 based on their previous work, and then on further testing they realized that they did not think it suited the game and threw it out. There was talk about maybe publishing it as an optional system in a supplement later down the line, but it's unlikely to happen.

 

[notthepenguins]

Not really "from the beginning." Post-Masters of Jade, they were pretty enthusiastic about that notion. They actually did create such a system for Ex3 based on their previous work, and then on further testing they realized that they did not think it suited the game and threw it out. There was talk about maybe publishing it as an optional system in a supplement later down the line, but it's unlikely to happen.

Click to shrink...

From my memory of their statements on the matter, it didn't fit their mandate for "clear, concise rules." They later started trying to justify why it was a bad idea conceptually (you'll note that now they talk about how they want you to do things yourself and through roleplay for a ~better experience~), but their initial reason was just that they couldn't build a system that was Short Enough.

 

[Omicron]

From my memory of their statements on the matter, it didn't fit their mandate for "clear, concise rules." They later started trying to justify why it was a bad idea conceptually (you'll note that now they talk about how they want you to do things yourself and through roleplay for a ~better experience~), but their initial reason was just that they couldn't build a system that was Short Enough.

Click to shrink...

I honestly don't remember.

Based on my own (short) experience with MoJ-style systems I would tend to be in agreement with the later statement regardless of whether it was the motive, and kind of wary of large-scale bureaucracy systems; but I don't know if the Ex3 way of doing it is better; I haven't tried yet.

 

[Walker of the Yellow Path]

From my memory of their statements on the matter, it didn't fit their mandate for "clear, concise rules." They later started trying to justify why it was a bad idea conceptually (you'll note that now they talk about how they want you to do things yourself and through roleplay for a ~better experience~), but their initial reason was just that they couldn't build a system that was Short Enough.

Click to shrink...

Clear and Concise rules was a factor? That strikes me as odd, considering that Craft is anything but concise, and many charms and rules can have differing interpretations.

Anyways, does anyone know how to handle Evocations with special activation rules? A player of mine is using Black Wind, and wants to start the game with Life Drinking Resurgence (must kill non trivial opponent in support of major or defining intimacy) and Dark Life Detection (must investigate and then slay a killer). Should I let him just pay Bonus points or use them as his starting charms? Should I be giving him them for free? (this is what he wants, but what I'm leery about giving) Or should I tell him he has to do it in-game?

 

[notthepenguins]

Based on my own (short) experience with MoJ-style systems I would tend to be in agreement with the later statement regardless of whether it was the motive, and kind of wary of large-scale bureaucracy systems; but I don't know if the Ex3 way of doing it is better; I haven't tried yet.

Click to shrink...

I honestly think an MoJ-style system could be great if it was actually made with interaction and charmtech in mind, and the care due a core element of a new game system. They are pretty easy to fuck up, though, I agree.

Clear and Concise rules was a factor? That strikes me as odd, considering that Craft is anything but concise, and many charms and rules can have differing interpretations.

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Well, I clearly remember them saying it.

They go back and forth on their justifications for doing shit all the time, though, so who knows how much that means.

 

[Kuciwalker]

Clear and Concise rules was a factor? That strikes me as odd, considering that Craft is anything but concise, and many charms and rules can have differing interpretations.

Anyways, does anyone know how to handle Evocations with special activation rules? A player of mine is using Black Wind, and wants to start the game with Life Drinking Resurgence (must kill non trivial opponent in support of major or defining intimacy) and Dark Life Detection (must investigate and then slay a killer). Should I let him just pay Bonus points or use them as his starting charms? Should I be giving him them for free? (this is what he wants, but what I'm leery about giving) Or should I tell him he has to do it in-game?

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I think it might be better to charge him Background dots for it instead of bonus points, with more dots for activations with more difficult triggers. That said unless it's somehow really important to the concept that these be already activated I don't think there's much wrong with just making him earn them in-game.

 

[Omicron]

I honestly think an MoJ-style system could be great if it was actually made with interaction and charmtech in mind, and the care due a core element of a new game system. They are pretty easy to fuck up, though, I agree.

Click to shrink...

Probably, yeah. I think MoJ, for all the praise it got (and the fun it could be!), was fucking it up. You could have built a whole Charmset around it, made all the Charm widgets you wanted, but at the end of the day it boiled down to getting the biggest possible roll on actions that took place beyond the scale of regular mote/Willpower regeneration, which meant that mortal opposition was somehow even more irrelevant than it was in combat and Solars weren't the god-kings of the world whose powers reshaped the world, Sidereals were.

But my direct experience was, again, limited.

 

[greensun]

MoJ-style systems

Click to shrink...

Moj? What's that?

 

[Broken25]

Moj? What's that?

Click to shrink...

Masters of Jade.

 

[Azrael]

Moj? What's that?

Click to shrink...

Masters of Jade.

 

[greensun]

Thanks.

 

[Dif]

From my memory of their statements on the matter, it didn't fit their mandate for "clear, concise rules." They later started trying to justify why it was a bad idea conceptually (you'll note that now they talk about how they want you to do things yourself and through roleplay for a ~better experience~), but their initial reason was just that they couldn't build a system that was Short Enough.

Click to shrink...

The fact we have no concrete wide-scale rulership and organization systems while Wyld-Shaping Technique is a micromanaged Wish spell padded out to like three whole pages says everything about their approach in this regard, to be honest.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

While the thematics of tying the people of adamant to the jadeborn are pretty cool, i have some objections, @EarthScorpion .

1) People totally do in fact play mountainfolk as PC's My IRL friend has done so at least twice (and played dragon kings even more)

2) The whole "everything is in decay and will never regain the glory that was" is far more tolkeinesque than the things you tossed out as being too LotR. I mean yeah, gruff scotting short bearded people are probably overdone, but really Tolkein does not deserve the majority of the blame
for that.

2a) Since eveything else in exalted is already "faded with time" is it really necessary for the mountain folk to be iteration 36527 of this trope?

3) The firat age solars already have a crapton of genocide under their belt, adding the Mountain folk to that doesn't really add that much interest. Why not make their "hiding underground, out of sight" a shogunate sin? I could stand to see more of those. The Jadebon were sworn to the Solars, and as such, could not be trusted. The shogunate cut down any of the Mountain folk they could find, driving them to underground strongholds. It was only post contagion that they Jadeborn have made contact with the surface again, and fearful of another pogrom, they habe lavished the scarlet dymasty with tribute, and the Scarlet throne is making a point of not looking a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[pheonix89]

I've never liked blaming the whole mountain folk situation on the First Age because it's pointless teamkilling scheduled for a period where the people who fought alongside the victims were still around. Even ES's write-up doesn't really help because the victim having sketchy internal policies doesn't really make genocidal teamkilling any less monumental of a dick move.

The First Age Solars wiping out that servant race of Gaia's (Genesis Lords IIRC) for sitting things out like Gaia did is bad enough, but genocidal teamkilling because a weaker ally wants to be treated as a weaker ally, not a vassal is just grimderp. ES's write-up just adds using combat abilities to "solve" an issue better handled with Social effects and Craft/Medicine to the sins.

 

[Cosar]

2) The whole "everything is in decay and will never regain the glory that was" is far more tolkeinesque than the things you tossed out as being too LotR. I mean yeah, gruff scotting short bearded people are probably overdone, but really Tolkein does not deserve the majority of the blame
for that.

2a) Since eveything else in exalted is already "faded with time" is it really necessary for the mountain folk to be iteration 36527 of this trope?

3) The firat age solars already have a crapton of genocide under their belt, adding the Mountain folk to that doesn't really add that much interest. Why not make their "hiding underground, out of sight" a shogunate sin? I could stand to see more of those. The Jadebon were sworn to the Solars, and as such, could not be trusted. The shogunate cut down any of the Mountain folk they could find, driving them to underground strongholds. It was only post contagion that they Jadeborn have made contact with the surface again, and fearful of another pogrom, they habe lavished the scarlet dymasty with tribute, and the Scarlet throne is making a point of not looking a gift horse in the mouth.

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I don't think they're tossed out for being too Tolkien. They're being tossed out because it make the Jadeborn to similar to humans. I think a big push from Earthscorpion is that if you're similar to humanity in exalted then you are human. Other races are actually other, weird alien races, not humans with some different physical traits.


Furthermore, as you noticed, faded with time is very present in Exalted. In fact, when Exalted says it's a reaction to Tolkein/Lord of the Rings, it's more a reaction to Lord of the Rings's effect on the genre of fantasy, rather than a reaction to it specifically. There are quite a few important themes in Tolkiens works that Exalted not only uses, but exalts. The fact that this is a fallen age, with glories never to return is a key part of Exalted. This goes double because one of the themes of the aftermath to the PW was that this world was now humanities: their non-human allies exist, but their fate was to decline. Having the Jadeborn be the except to this rather evades the whole point.

As for your third point, I think it shows how the Solars are not so different from the Primordials they replaced: the genocide they preformed against the Primordial war races is generally in terms of war, and a war that these races generally didn't seem inclined to surrender in. It's terrible, but it's a terrible that still seems rather sane. Meanwhile, they just destroyed one of their former allies. I think that sends a stronger message.

 

[DayDreamer]

As for your third point, I think it shows how the Solars are not so different from the Primordials they replaced: the genocide they preformed against the Primordial war races is generally in terms of war, and a war that these races generally didn't seem inclined to surrender in. It's terrible, but it's a terrible that still seems rather sane. Meanwhile, they just destroyed one of their former allies. I think that sends a stronger message.

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The issue is that, once again, this doesn't any real new depth to the setting's portrayal of the First Age, and in some ways actively undermines it. If the Solars are truly not that different from the Primordials they replaced then the Usurpation loses it's tragedy: the Bronze Faction was right and the Solars were monsters.

Saying that the Shogunate was responsible makes for a more interesting dynamic, especially given the assumptions that the majority of PCs interacting with these guys will be either Solars or Dragonblooded (the two most popular Splats). It gives Solars some interesting "reclaim their ancient, still loyal vassals" storylines, DBs some "make up for the tragedies of their ancestors" ones, and makes the Shogunate seem more impressive: it's a big, dramatic thing that was DB-specific, unlike pretty much everything else in the setting.