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Gems in the Wastes (Exalted/Warhammer Fantasy/CK2)

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Alectai said:
Chaos Really shouldn't be able to trivially corrupt Exalts.
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I'm not saying it'll be an easy done deal, I'm saying it's POSSIBLE. Chaos is well known for infiltrating communities (hence why I have that as a drawback) and exploiting resentment, amongst other things, in order to get there "in." Hence why Witch Hunters and stuff like that are things in the first place.
 
Critian Caceorte said:
I'm not saying it'll be an easy done deal, I'm saying it's POSSIBLE. Chaos is well known for infiltrating communities (hence why I have that as a drawback) and exploiting resentment, amongst other things, in order to get there "in." Hence why Witch Hunters and stuff like that are things in the first place.
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I mean, a lot of how Chaos works tends to involve a lot less cleverness and a lot more "I Just Win because I'm Destined To Win" where they throw the dice a thousand times and then when one area gets a tiny gain they throw resources at it so that tiny gain magically spools up to a Big Gain that nobody else gets to gainsay. So it becomes a setup where everyone else is trying to Slow Down their Inevitable Loss. Not necessarily out of weakness of character, but because the GMs are assholes and don't let you get any wins that last longer than a generation at best.

There's not really a lot of examples of Chaos being portrayed as actually capable in anything other than Violence, and more "The Universe says they win and so everyone fails to stop them when it matters most" Between having Functionally Limitless Resources and also Functionally Limitless Capacity to Poke You and then Double Down on any victory to render it out of control.
 
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Alectai said:
Chaos Really shouldn't be able to trivially corrupt Exalts. They're sort of designed to be Inherently Resistant to that kind of shenanigans, and every one of them can quickly develop Active Countermeasures to boot. Even Dragon Blooded can learn a Charm that goes "For an Hour, I can hang out in Pure Chaos and be perfectly fine for a few motes and a willpower" They set the floor for how weak an individual Exalt can be. (Their big advantage being that their numbers aren't fixed and can steadily grow over time)
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Eh, I would say it can give them boons and whatnot, but the Exalt can freely betray Chaos whenever they want. In other words, an Exalt can totally play them for suckers.

Of course, there is also the risk of going horribly right. Like Chaos could corrupt our PC, but that does not make him a minion. That just means you have someone studying the True Name of the Chaos Gods so he can bind them to his will, or whatever.

But trying is a major risk for Chaos. Like we could take an unwanted Boon from Nurgle and study it to create some kind of spiritual vaccine against him if he tries to subvert us.
 
I think the biggest threat we pose to Chaos is not just that we are an OCP for Their servants (we are of course) but that we can operate in deeply corrupted environments. Even at the height of the elves and dwarfs no one proposed 'Lets you and me go into the Wastes and fix the Gates'. It is just not something the intelligent species of this world can do. A solar on the other hand... a Solar can make and man a Reality Engine, otherwise known as the Wastes Be Gone Machine :V
 
Critian Caceorte said:
At least the potential-Immaculate isn't likely to assassinate you. :V
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Well that's good. They are probably better at us than martial arts though. For whatever that is worth.

DragonParadox said:
I think more relevant is the fact that exalts are a lot tougher mentally thanks to their intimacies and various charms.
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I could see a lunar having inherent Chaos resistance. Tattoos etc.

Being able to defend against chaos corruption would require knowing what it is for the rest of the exalts.

Also I believe intrigue and piety are our worst stats :V

We are pretty much chaos bait.
 
zxzx24 said:
Well that's good. They are probably better at us than martial arts though. For whatever that is worth.


I could see a lunar having inherent Chaos resistance. Tattoos etc.

Being able to defend against chaos corruption would require knowing what it is for the rest of the exalts.

Also I believe intrigue and piety are our worst stats :V

We are pretty much chaos bait.
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We do know what it is, it is Wyld mutations, particularly nasty strains and particularly pervasive cults. I think most Exalted would be horrified at the sheer reach of the Four. But nothing here is qualitatively different from what you would find in say Nexus where some loons think that selling pieces of your souls to the Rhaska is a good idea.
 
zxzx24 said:
I... don't think that's even slightly true? Firewander isn't remotely like the chaos wastes.
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No, but that is because it's small, I was using that as an example of a Wyld Cult. The Chaos Wastes, north of Norsca would be... something like the Middlemarches, down is still down most of the time, but mountains can be made of meat and go for a walk. On the other hand comparing Wyld and Chaos mutations there is a lot of overlap, right down to the fact that if you get enough of them you can no longer survive in ordinary reality.
 
The real issue is that Chaos is consistent in how it Fucks You Up, and they're infectious to the point where "The mutant going out can and will actively infect other people in any way it can"
 
Alectai said:
The real issue is that Chaos is consistent in how it Fucks You Up, and they're infectious to the point where "The mutant going out can and will actively infect other people in any way it can"
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I have a sneaking suspicion I know what Chaos corruption, the mental kind is in Exalted terms:

INTERACTION WITH THE ASSIMILATED
Most people have never heard of Wyld assimilation. The Wyld's grotesque, blatant changes to minds and bodies overshadow this subtle deformity of the soul. Careful conversation, however, can reveal Wyld assimilation and identify the limitations on the thoughts and behaviors of a Wyld assimilated person or culture—in effect, their Motivation or the group's Policy.

Example Motivation: Blood for the Blood God

Players must succeed at (Perception + Socialize) rolls to gain such information. Five to 10 minutes of conversation, and a simple success, reveals that a person thinks in an obsessive, rigid way—but some people do think in narrow channels, so that isn't enough to prove Wyld assimilation. A character must spend a full scene talking with a person (and her player roll three successes) to spot that the person thinks in no sane, human way. The character recognizes Wyld assimilation if he thinks to look for it. Figuring out the approximate limitations on the thoughts and behaviors of a Wyld-assimilated person or group—in effect, the assimilated group's Policy—requires five to 10 successes on an extended roll, with each roll representing a full scene of probing conversation. Charms may grant more extensive and detailed knowledge.

It can be subtle, so subtle that a social focused exalt could miss it if they are not careful

Personal and cultural factors can make it harder to spot Wyld assimilation. A person may have been obsessive before the Wyld turned him into a story. Some people also perceive monomania as commendable zeal. Dozens of Immaculate monks, for instance, have become living archetypes of relentless pursuit, after a few too many trips into the Wyld after Anathema. Far from realizing these fanatical hunters have gone insane, the Order holds them up as laudable examples—no matter how many other hunters these fanatics get killed.

It's almost like they become caricatures of themselves. Where have I heard that before... Daemon-prince hood, that is almost word for word Chaos Path to Glory

Assimilation to the Wyld has a powerful effect on social combat, whether mundane or enhanced by Charms. Assimilated people have no Intimacies, only a Motivation—the role they play with utter fidelity. Social groups likewise adhere to their Policy with total dedication. If a social attack aligns closely with a Motivation or Policy, the attacking character's player receives a +3 dice bonus to his roll (if the Storyteller thinks a roll is necessary at all). Any course of action that deviates significantly from the Motivation or Policy imposes a -3 dice penalty to the roll. A social attack that directly opposes a Motivation or Policy fails outright—no need to roll at all.

Neither family, not loved ones, nation nor creed, morals, decency fear or shame can sway someone who is far enough gone, they embody the narrative that has infected them.

Example: The Falling Tears Poet, a Moonshadow Caste deathknight, tries recruiting the Devourers for an attack on a town. He must persuade the demented cannibals of two things at once: to raid beyond their usual territory and not to eat him. The former objective is in line with the Devourers' Policy, so the deathknight's player has a +3 dice bonus to the social attack. The latter objective would directly challenge the Devourers' Policy of eating everyone who isn't one of them—but the Abyssal argues that letting him live will enable the Devourers to kill and capture many more people than they could without him, which plays on another part of their Policy. The roll for this social attack, therefore, takes a -3 external penalty.

Finally, the Falling Tears Poet must make these attacks as a flurry, since the mutant maniacs won't care about letting him live unless they are also convinced to make the attack, and the deathknight won't persuade them to attack the town unless they refrain from trying to eat him. One Presence Excellency later, the Abyssal has his allies… deeply unreliable allies who will need careful handling to prevent them from turning on him.

Ever wonder why more Chaos warriors do not show up down south when the Everchosen does not ride? Because it would not fit the narrative because...

As long as assimilated people or groups stay in the Wyld, mundane social combat cannot break their Motivations or change their Policies. Only unnatural mental influence or social influence Charms can challenge a Motivation or Policy directly, and then suffer a -5 external penalty. Even magical social combat cannot work an enduring change in a Motivation or Policy: that requires Shaping magic to change the fundamental nature of a Wyld-assimilated person or group.

Pulling a Wyld-assimilated person into Creation extends the possibilities for social combat. Without the Wyld constantly reinforcing the person's role, her assimilation can be broken. This requires creating an Intimacy—any Intimacy, so long as it deviates from the person's Motivation in some way. For instance, a social combatant might try to give an honorable warrior a personal loyalty that doesn't follow his usual script, or give a cannibal savage a personal enmity beyond his general desire to kill and eat the unmutated. The social attacks to establish the Intimacy suffer a -3 dice penalty because they challenge the person's Motivation to follow his scripted role.

A single, independent Intimacy, however, gives the person two roles or stories instead of one. That suffices to make her a real person again, prying her loose from the Wyld. Her Motivation hasn't changed—a cannibal maniac, for instance, is still a cannibal maniac—but it becomes a human Motivation (however strange or unpleasant), and subject to change. The person is also most likely addicted to the Wyld, and might not be able to live in Creation anyway. Nevertheless, the person becomes subject to normal social combat.

...it is hard to break away.

Now all that said I do think there is a difference between Chaos corruption and the assimilation a Lunar or other experienced Wyld traveler of Creation would recognize. Chaos Corruption is a lot more sticky, once you have it just having other intimacies does not free you from the story of Rage, Ruin, Treachery and Excess.

But I am betting that once we know what to look for we probably could social minor Chaos corruption out of people.
 
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Critian Caceorte also very relevant question I feel. Given this is Exalted, is it a option to find ways to turn our enemies Exalted/Fair Folk to allies? Its not that outlandish after all. If needing a long time to work.
 
Since it seems to be a choice between my plan and [] Plan: North Canadian Tower Defense I figure I aught to give some arguments on point. A lot of the things in that plan and indeed the general philosophy are quite similar. I would not be unhappy if it won, that said there is a reason why I am sticking with mine, two large ones in fact

Out of Character: It will be harder for us to interact with people who are not Chaos Warriors, Chaos Marauders and Druchi. There are only so many ways one can interact with these and most of them are at the end of a blade. I am concerned that we might get too tied up in the business of surviving up here to explore the world and its interactions, particularly since as a Twilight going off to turtle for a hundred turns seems tempting, until you have to read about a hundred years of turtling at least

In Character: There isn't anything we can do to keep the Druchi from killing us if either the Witch King or his Dear Old Mom hear about us and decide they want to look our stuff and take our populace as exotic slaves. The Dark Elves are if not a match for the Asur, the present superpower of order at least close enough that the latter do not want to risk poking them in spite of the repeated invasions with daemons which they partook in. Depending in when we are in the timeline wiping us up could be just what the Witch King needs to blood his troops in the lead up to such an invasion. Now of course we could also land in a period of weakness, like in the aftermath of a failed invasion, but we have no reason to assume that will be the case. There is a reason Naggoroth gives points. I am concerned it might not give enough given how dangerous it is likely to be and how much that danger is likely to linger. I think breaking Chaos God curses may be easier than moving again given that we have the Fount and a god corpse with us.
 
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gale said:
Critian Caceorte also very relevant question I feel. Given this is Exalted, is it a option to find ways to turn our enemies Exalted/Fair Folk to allies? Its not that outlandish after all. If needing a long time to work.
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Infernal and Fair Folk, sure. While the people of Uluiru really don't like the fae, they've also had peace treaties and pacts with several before, so that's nothing new. The Infernal, while channeling the powers of Hell, could theoretically be persuaded, though it would be a lot more difficult.

The Heart-Eaters? Uhhhhh... More than likely no. Both because they'll have Past Life memories of the Solar Exalted (and others) betraying them, but also their Great Curse and evil desire to have the Fount of Glories for themselves. You're better off just killing them and spreading their bones around literally everywhere in lead-lined safes at the bottom of the ocean everywhere.
 
Critian Caceorte said:
Infernal and Fair Folk, sure. While the people of Uluiru really don't like the fae, they've also had peace treaties and pacts with several before, so that's nothing new. The Infernal, while channeling the powers of Hell, could theoretically be persuaded, though it would be a lot more difficult.

The Heart-Eaters? Uhhhhh... More than likely no. Both because they'll have Past Life memories of the Solar Exalted (and others) betraying them, but also their Great Curse and evil desire to have the Fount of Glories for themselves. You're better off just killing them and spreading their bones around literally everywhere in lead-lined safes at the bottom of the ocean everywhere.
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Actually... we seem to be in another iteration of reality. What happens if an Infernal dies here? Does their exaltation find their way back to Hell? Can it? Or would it land among our people or one of the locals?
 
H2F2 said:
Who are the Heart-Eaters?
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One of 3e apocryphal Exalted types, I don't really agree with most of them. But Heart-Eaters are the coolest out of the lot.

DragonParadox said:
Actually... we seem to be in another iteration of reality. What happens if an Infernal dies here? Does their exaltation find their way back to Hell? Can it? Or would it land among our people or one of the locals?
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If there is a place of desolation there should be a way back home for the Infernal shard.
 
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Aurora and the Heart-Eaters
  • Informational
    • H2F2 said:
    Who are the Heart-Eaters?
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    They're an Apocryphal/Optional type of Exalted available in the Exigents book in 3e. Unlike the other two optional Exalts (Dream-Souled and Umbral), they're not optional because they might or might not exist as the ST chooses, but rather whether they are even in play or not. No matter what, they DO exist because of how important they are to the Sovereign's origin story.

    Back during the Primordial War, there was an 8th Celestial Incarna who helped with the Divine Revolution: Aurora, the Lord of Muses, God of the Rainbow, etc. He had his own Exalted known as the Aurorals who mostly were supporter-types. They had the unique ability to tie another Exalt 's Anima Banner to themselves and duplicate the powers of it, greatly improving both of their abilities. They were also artists who greatly improved the armies morale.

    Until one day in the war, Aurora himself was caught by the Primordials up in the Northwest and killed. THEN, they tore out his heart and inflicted the worst curses ever imaginable onto it (well, 2nd worst after the Great Curse, but that dying energies to it to give an extra oomph). Those curses then infected the Aurorals thanks to the heart being a point of sympathy, corrupting them into hive-mind monsters known as the Heart-Eaters.

    The Primordials expected the Heart-Eaters to betray their former allies and serve them, but they actually didn't. They still fought on the side of the Gods, getting A LOT of side-eyes on the way, and were there when victory was eventually declared. Peace was established in the land... And it crashed against the Heart-Eaters newfound instincts. They had an addiction to mind-controlling people, because it was the only way they could positively self-reflect, so they kept on taking more and more Pawns. Eventually, the other Exalted decided that enough was enough, separated them from their Pawns so that they couldn't use them as a respawn point, killed them and scattered their opal bones deep into the Wyld, never to be returned.

    ...Except when the Raksha encountered some of those bones, decided to get a full collector's set, and brought them closer to Creation over the ages. Whenever a mortal touches the complete set of opal bones, their soul clashes with the trapped spirit insides the skeleton, typically creating a new personality that becomes the new Heart-Eater. Currently, there's anywhere from 0 to 20 Heart-Eaters running around at the borders of Creation at any given time. Many are clustered around the Northwest, because that's where Uluiru and the Fount of Glories.

    The Fount of Glories that uses the blood of their Patron for Exaltation. Opinions vary on what to actually do with it, but they unanimously want to pry it from the cold dead hands of the Sovereigns and use the Fount in some way to benefit themselves. Some believe that it can cure them of their possession addiction, which is... probably not true. Or if it does, it might only work for 1 Heart-Eater and then ruin the Fount for anyone else. No one knows.

    EDIT: Added this to the Informational threadmarks, because it seems useful.
     
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  • Informational
    • [X] Plan: 14 Turns Ticking Down
    -[X] Near Naggoroth [+2]
    -[X] Major (+2)
    -[X] Uninhabitable (+2)
    -[X] Hated (+1)
    -[X] Never-Ending (+2)
    -[X] Stringpuller (+1)
    -[X] Plaguemaker (+1)
    -[X] Charmwielder (+1)
    -[X] Blood Drinkers (+1)
    -[X] Makers of Change (+1)
    -[X] Plaguebearer (+1)
    -[X] Cultists of Pleasure (+1)
    -[X] -Blood (+1)
    -[X] -Disease (+1)
    -[X] -Change (+1)
    -[X] -Excess (+1)
    -[X] -Undivided (+1)
    -[X] Heart-Eater (+2)
    -[X] Infernal Exalt (+2)
    -[X] Other Fae (+1)

    This isn't an entirely serious suggestion, but it also isn't exactly a joke?

    @Critian Caceorte said that every positive we go above 0, we'll have another turn of a whole bunch of benefits that I'm reading with this "Maximum Conflict" angle as "Gambit Pile Up has lead to our enemies being generally ineffective".

    To quote
    Just remembered: Any points that are left over when Character Creation is finished will be converted into a "Grace Period." During that time (about X turns, where is the remaining points), you cannot Crit fail, failures have a reduced effect and you cannot lose any further opinion from your subjects. Thought it would be a nice incentive if you wanted to take more drawbacks than was necessary.
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    So, I grabbed everything and did the math.

    Taking literally everything gives us 26 points, minues 12 for our debt, so 14 Turns.

    I figure between everything being on fire and being Exalted, we'll have a solid chance to get most if not all of the problems these things buy solved within 14 turns, and that as Exalted we'll have a solid shot at doing "setting impossible" things like saving fallen Chaos Sorcerers by punching Chaos Gods in the face or successfully setting up a counter colony in Naggoroth.

    Opinion being locked from falling also means that, hypothetically, we could slow march both sets of opinion to 10 while doing things that should technically be really unpopular, like giving all Peasants a quality education or getting into risky wars or whatnot.

    I don't expect this to win, but the "Cushion" provided by it is something to seriously consider I think.
     
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    DragonParadox said:
    There isn't anything we can do to keep the Druchi from killing us if either the Witch King or his Dear Old Mom hear about us and decide they want to look our stuff and take our populace as exotic slaves.
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    Sure there is. They have limited info about us and are used to thinking long term. Spending a decade or two to learn about us given how new and unusual we are is totally reasonable, they have plenty of time. Plus they are not going to roll out in full force right away. They will send minions, and so forth. Malekith and Morathi can't exactly head over themselves trivially, they have tons of enemies and are busy with other things. If they had the full context, they would know to do so. But they do not.

    Plus we are a much harder target than you would think. We have 2nd circle demons, the ability to make Sovereign Exalts, we can learn and use Tiger Warrior training. Hell, we can even use Wyld shaping to outright create ourselves some mortals to train into soldiers.

    By the time Malekith and Morathi are aware of us on a serious level we could easily be a Solar Circle Sorcerer. At which point we drop the Green Sun on them. Or Enemy of Nature. That will be Fun in a place with as many monsters as the land of Chill.

    Malekith: How is he making it burn even worse?!?
     
    Critian Caceorte said:
    Eventually, the other Exalted decided that enough was enough, separated them from their Pawns so that they couldn't use them as a respawn point, killed them and scattered their opal bones deep into the Wyld, never to be returned.
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    What's stopping the Solars from destroying them permanently? I mean, they were at the height of their power and were able to kill those who couldn't die. Why are the Heart-Eaters so special?
     
    There is no defense against "One of the top five characters in the setting has an unaccountable intuition to look in the ass-end of nowhere where there's no reason to do so and attack it with all of the strength they have"

    And that's always going to be the case. We will always be in the reach of at least one turbo gigachad in the Warhammer Fantasy World, if they just suddenly intuit our presence and decide to set all of their other affairs aside to focus their full attention on us. Yes, that's GG until we've had a few generations or so to get established and dig in.

    H2F2 said:
    What's stopping the Solars from destroying them permanently? I mean, they were at the height of their power and were able to kill those who couldn't die. Why are the Heart-Eaters so special?
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    Bones carry the Exaltation, and an Exaltation is indestructable.

    We're not looking at 2nd Edition Solars who were just short of omnipotent at their height here. All Exalted in 3rd Edition are Feature Complete at Essence 5. Going above that is only getting a couple more dice and maybe one or two unique expansions to their base charms that Do Something that better fits their themes and aesthetics than the default options. And that requires breaking the curve in some form, so Exalted who exceed Essence 5 are rare
     
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