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Crystalwatcher's Magical Girl Quest!

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What happens if the time traveler learns they caused a paradox after the fact? Like, say, someone who doesn't know how Hitler died takes the shot, and then they meet with someone else who also time-travelled before/at the same time as the first time-traveller, and the second tells the first that Hitler shot himself in his bunker before the Red Army rolled into Berlin - what happens then? Does the Fold break or does the fact that the change already happened mean that it holds up?
 
Interested Party said:
What happens if the time traveler learns they caused a paradox after the fact? Like, say, someone who doesn't know how Hitler died takes the shot, and then they meet with someone else who also time-travelled before/at the same time as the first time-traveller, and the second tells the first that Hitler shot himself in his bunker before the Red Army rolled into Berlin - what happens then? Does the Fold break or does the fact that the change already happened mean that it holds up?
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The one that knew would see it as it in such a way that it'd look like what he thought happened did happen (in this case Hitler shooting himself) while what's actually happening is the first guy shooting him.

Or it'd register as a disconnect as the first traveler's memories are overwritten in such a way he doesn't notice the change.
 
Crystalwatcher said:
The one that knew would see it as it in such a way that it'd look like what he thought happened did happen (in this case Hitler shooting himself) while what's actually happening is the first guy shooting him.

Or it'd register as a disconnect as the first traveler's memories are overwritten in such a way he doesn't notice the change.
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wait, are you saying that time can rewrite itself seamlessly, so long as the time traveler involved doesn't know they fucked with time? what if a time traveler accidentally and unknowingly kills their own grandfather? would time just get rewritten so that his grandfather was someone else?
 
Crystalwatcher said:
The one that knew would see it as it in such a way that it'd look like what he thought happened did happen (in this case Hitler shooting himself) while what's actually happening is the first guy shooting him.

Or it'd register as a disconnect as the first traveler's memories are overwritten in such a way he doesn't notice the change.
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What about unknowingly causing a Grandfather Paradox, killing your own ancestor, preventing your own birth?

Also, does anything happen if you have reason to believe that you're causing a paradox but you don't know why or how (someone tells you to use time travel to do X, which means that doing X probably causes a paradox, but you don't know for sure that it's not actually a stable time loop)?

What about if you think you're intentionally causing a paradox, but a flaw in your knowledge means you actually aren't causing one?
 
random_npc said:
wait, are you saying that time can rewrite itself seamlessly, so long as the time traveler involved doesn't know they fucked with time? what if a time traveler accidentally and unknowingly kills their own grandfather? would time just get rewritten so that his grandfather was someone else?
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justinkal said:
What about unknowingly causing a Grandfather Paradox, killing your own ancestor, preventing your own birth?
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The Glass can auto correct for pretty much anything so long as the one involved is unaware of the details as they should have been.

justinkal said:
Also, does anything happen if you have reason to believe that you're causing a paradox but you don't know why or how (someone tells you to use time travel to do X, which means that doing X probably causes a paradox, but you don't know for sure that it's not actually a stable time loop)?
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This falls under the "aware of the paradox" part of the situation and would break the Fold.

justinkal said:
What about if you think you're intentionally causing a paradox, but a flaw in your knowledge means you actually aren't causing one?
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You get to experience one hell of a mind fuck when you realise that.
 
Hmmm... I wonder... there does seem to be a fairly easy exploit allowing for arbitrary operations without invoking the Beast of Pity.

What would happen if a time traveler wished to make a change to history which they know would contradict history, such as getting Hitler accepted to art school, but instead of going themselves they sent someone else who didn't know they'd be causing a paradox by carrying out the specific set of instructions given to them? Or, in a method that doesn't involve lying to someone you trust to change history in your stead, what if they send a robot with no knowledge of how events are supposed to proceed?
 
Question!

What about a planed paradox? For example take magical girl A with a spell to go back in time for x combat turns. Effectively allowing her to team up with herself for x turns or save herself through future self comming back to save her (if event lies in the possible time for A to travel back to).
So uterly planed paradoxes? Would Chronos weep BS or curse?

Lets take MG B that again does strange thinks with time: She is her own twin with one of them beeing her from the X seconds future. Of curse which one is which changes.

@Crystalwatcher
How bad would the above examples be as they break all the rules?
 
Logos said:
Hmmm... I wonder... there does seem to be a fairly easy exploit allowing for arbitrary operations without invoking the Beast of Pity.

What would happen if a time traveler wished to make a change to history which they know would contradict history, such as getting Hitler accepted to art school, but instead of going themselves they sent someone else who didn't know they'd be causing a paradox by carrying out the specific set of instructions given to them? Or, in a method that doesn't involve lying to someone you trust to change history in your stead, what if they send a robot with no knowledge of how events are supposed to proceed?
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Intent seems important here.

If you travel back in time to save your classmate from getting hit by a train you cause the paradox by making so that you would have never been compelled to go back in time to fix that event, so it happens and then you go back in time to fix it... Well, it spirals out of control like a NOT gate with its output hooked to its input.

If you send someone else back your intent may not travel with them. So when your catspaw returns they've always failed in one way or another so that you wouldn't have lost your purpose to send them back, perhaps with a sharp note from [TIME], everything else they may have changed gets glossed over and the river of events keeps flowing without entering an Escher loop.[/TIME]
 
Logos said:
Hmmm... I wonder... there does seem to be a fairly easy exploit allowing for arbitrary operations without invoking the Beast of Pity.

What would happen if a time traveler wished to make a change to history which they know would contradict history, such as getting Hitler accepted to art school, but instead of going themselves they sent someone else who didn't know they'd be causing a paradox by carrying out the specific set of instructions given to them? Or, in a method that doesn't involve lying to someone you trust to change history in your stead, what if they send a robot with no knowledge of how events are supposed to proceed?
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kelllogo said:
Intent seems important here.

If you travel back in time to save your classmate from getting hit by a train you cause the paradox by making so that you would have never been compelled to go back in time to fix that event, so it happens and then you go back in time to fix it... Well, it spirals out of control like a NOT gate with its output hooked to its input.

If you send someone else back your intent may not travel with them. So when your catspaw returns they've always failed in one way or another so that you wouldn't have lost your purpose to send them back, perhaps with a sharp note from [TIME], everything else they may have changed gets glossed over and the river of events keeps flowing without entering an Escher loop.[/TIME]
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More or less what @kelllogo said. Remember that Time is Chronos and he passively acts to correct errors because they hurt him. Either by rewriting perception of what has and has not happened or simply by burrying it in the details around it. It's not to say large scale changes can't happen, but causing time to correct for paradox will break the Fold.

Portec said:
Question!

What about a planed paradox? For example take magical girl A with a spell to go back in time for x combat turns. Effectively allowing her to team up with herself for x turns or save herself through future self comming back to save her (if event lies in the possible time for A to travel back to).
So uterly planed paradoxes? Would Chronos weep BS or curse?

Lets take MG B that again does strange thinks with time: She is her own twin with one of them beeing her from the X seconds future. Of curse which one is which changes.

@Crystalwatcher
How bad would the above examples be as they break all the rules?
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Ironically this is how the Dames of Clockwork operate towards the end of their personal timelines.

Doing things like this would be closer to "scrunching" time than folding it, allowing you to do a number of things that you wouldn't normally be capable of, like temporally cloning yourself as you suggested. Though the clones wouldn't stick around long because time would eventually straiten itself out. Though there are several combatants that do actively use similar effects for themselves.
 
So, are the Goetias the reason why in his current, weakened state, Chronos needs to use proxies to take out Time Dragons instead of just crushing them under the weight of his existence?

That type of brute force application of his power creates Goetias?
 
So limited time travel is possible by avoiding faults and instead scrunching the fabric of time. :lol

Those MG using such tactics are bound to be troubelsome. And migrane inducing for everyone around. :rofl:
 
justinkal said:
So, are the Goetias the reason why in his current, weakened state, Chronos needs to use proxies to take out Time Dragons instead of just crushing them under the weight of his existence?

That type of brute force application of his power creates Goetias?
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The problem with Time Dragons is that once they're born a Fold is immediately created. To crush them would require breaking the Fold and thus Goetia for days. Which is bad.
 
Crystalwatcher said:
He'll likely be in a bar drinking if you need him.
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Like, it seems, 90 percent of the Divine/Conceptual Beings in this universe...and 75 percent of mortals, but who cares about them?
They can't even nuke a LDC, bah.

Crystalwatcher said:
The problem with Time Dragons is that once they're born a Fold is immediately created. To crush them would require breaking the Fold and thus Goetia for days. Which is bad.
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Wait, wouldn't the Goetia from breaking a the Fold of a Time Dragon be centered about Time Dragons?
So killing the problematic species(Time Dragon) would create many much worse existences that take the best part of said problematic species(Goetia that take the best of Time Dragons, also called Super Duper Time Dragon)?
Man, i'm starting to understand the whole "bar drinking" thing.

EDIT: i see i was ninja'd
 
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Lord Marshal said:
Wait, wouldn't the Goetia from breaking a the Fold of a Time Dragon be centered about Time Dragons?
So killing the problematic species(Time Dragon) would create many much worse existences that take the best part of said problematic species(Goetia that take the best of Time Dragons, also called Super Duper Time Dragon)?
Man, i'm starting to understand the whole "bar drinking" thing.
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That's if you use time travel to fight a Time Dragon.

Something like an Elf adventuring party wielding 'Elfscalibur'? Not as much of an issue.
 
So if time travel to the past can cause paradoxes, what about time travel to the future? The Traveller wouldn't have any idea of how things were "supposed" to go, but they could potentially receive information relevant to their own time period.
 
ReaperofInterest said:
So if time travel to the past can cause paradoxes, what about time travel to the future? The Traveller wouldn't have any idea of how things were "supposed" to go, but they could potentially receive information relevant to their own time period.
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I mean... there is rather easy advice there: Do not go to the future!

Going to the past is already a thing you should not do willy-nilly, but going to the future is potentially worse for the exact reason you mentioned.
 
Crystalwatcher said:
So long as the Time Traveler doesn't change the outcome as they know it from what they remember, it is possible to utilize their own ignorance of a situation to turn the details of what would have otherwise been a crippling event into a survivable struggle. Or let people that otherwise shouldn't have survived a situation to come out alive.
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So the universe basically operations under the Novikov Self Consistency Principle, just with horrible monsters spawning when you break time instead of it just being impossible violating free will, and thus is open to all manner of time travel exploits. Because with the NSCP as long as everything looks the same from the outside you are free to cause all manner of mischief.

For example the Amber Room is famously missing and believed destroyed in the firebombings of Königsberg. With this method of time travel it is perfectly reasonable to travel back in time, steal the room on bomb day, and return to your timeline with no one the wiser.
 
UberJJK said:
So the universe basically operations under the Novikov Self Consistency Principle, just with horrible monsters spawning when you break time instead of it just being impossible violating free will, and thus is open to all manner of time travel exploits. Because with the NSCP as long as everything looks the same from the outside you are free to cause all manner of mischief.

For example the Amber Room is famously missing and believed destroyed in the firebombings of Königsberg. With this method of time travel it is perfectly reasonable to travel back in time, steal the room on bomb day, and return to your timeline with no one the wiser.
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Pretty much.

Edit: though make note I don't actually study this stuff. I usually go with what makes sense to me after thinking it over.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Crystalwatcher on May 16, 2019 at 4:04 PM, finished with 105 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X] Plan Search
    -[X] Contact the other Horsewomen and see what they've learned. Is there anything suspicious going on, or has anyone seen the WEAPON or Maidens?
    -[X] Try to figure out if there's any sort of pattern to what can be found out. If the WEAPON or Maidens are using a grid pattern to search, you might be able intercept them to talk
    -[X] If contact with one of the two groups is possible, try to determine why they're here and see what you might need to do about that.
    -[X] If possible, try to contact Maiden of the West so as to let her know her child is alive and looking for her. Try to see if anyone might have seen the child as well.
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