Crystalwatcher's Magical Girl Quest!

[X] Plan Divine Preparation
-[X] Visit Doctor Alexandra's Team
-[X] Team GEAR vs The World
-[X] In Memoire - The White
-[X] Visit the Command Tent / Go On a Mission
--[X] The Pale Light of The Moon (Operation: Artemis)

[X] Plan Upgrade
-[X] Upgrade Celestial Severance to level 20 (540)
-[X] Upgade Starshine to level 20 (540)
 
The Empire's economy resembles ancient Rome. Just instead of using gold coins as currency, they instead use a rarer titanium-based mixture for their coinage called Dex. A single Dex when traded with Humanity being more or less the equivalent to $0.54 U.S. dollars or so. Or, roughly, 1/3 an Akashic Credit.
The elves are really lucky there is a war going on other the Akashic Pillar would curb stomp their economy. The transition to representative (and later fiat) money combined with fractional reserve banking revolutionized how economies work and allowed the explosive growth we've seen over the last century on Earth. It's pretty much impossible for a nation still utilizing commodity money to complete.

Also I think you need to reconsider the coinage value. Inflation over the last couple centuries has driven dollar value down dramatically. To put things into perspective in 1300 an English laborer could make around 480 pence per year and two dozen eggs cost 1 pence. Meanwhile today two dozen eggs costs £3.72 which if we use the historical conversion of 240 pence per pound is the equivalent of 893 pence or almost two year's wages. Of course that conversion isn't entirely accurate since the pound hasn't remained constant over the centuries but it gives a rough idea of the price difference we're talking about.

Furthermore if you look at historical European coinages they were generally broken into three categories such as the English pound, shilling, and penny or the French livre, sou, and denier. This is the reason most fantasy games, such as D&D, use the gold, silver, and copper coin division. Historically unless you were a noble you simply aren't ever going to see let alone use the pound/livre/gold coin equivalent.

If the Dex is supposed to be an even rarer version of the gold coin it's relative purchasing power should be in the thousands of dollars and there should be lesser coins underneath it for the common peasantry to use.


How you might ask? Well, they use Necromancy.

Utilizing necromantic spells to animate particularly simple golems and liches, Elves have functionally bastardized automated assembly lines and mass-smelters.
Huh. That is an interesting work around. Of course it doesn't solve the primary issue with pre-industrial societies; food production. It does mean they probably don't need to tie up between 60% and 80% of their population farming but it doesn't change that historical farms weren't very efficient.

Back in the early fourteenth century farmers produced about half a tonne of wheat or oats and about a tonne of barley per hectare of land farmed. Today we produce 8.5 tonnes of wheat, 6.4 tons of barley, or 6 tons of oats per hectare. That gives an increase in yield of between 640% and 1,700%. What's more we've had similar levels of increases in productivity across all our agricultural areas. Potatoes, already an amazing food at 10.5 tonnes per hectare, have quadrupled in productivity and corn sextupled.

Of course having colonized over a dozen planets does mitigate this issue but to sustain their legendarily large populations I'd expect the majority of their worlds be primarily farmland.

In sheer output, they actually outstrip Earth itself, though they have nowhere near the same accuracy, or quality, that humans are capable of.
This isn't really surprising when you consider the numbers. Modern technology has dramatic improved our efficiency and productivity but ultimately Earth is only a single planet. We simply can't compete with the resources of literally dozens of worlds. Especially when we need to actually maintain the biosphere, what with it being our only planet, while the Elves can strip-mine their colony worlds before (presumably magically) restoring the biosphere once it's depleted of all accessible resources.
 
If the Dex is supposed to be an even rarer version of the gold coin it's relative purchasing power should be in the thousands of dollars and there should be lesser coins underneath it for the common peasantry to use.
That depends on much they have. There's 100,000,000,000 plus tonnes of gold in the earth, while about 225,000 tonnes have mined at the higher estimates. Now, most of that is basically unreachable, but if they could access it through magic, or a world where more is close to the surface, you could have much more then earth.

Now apply that same logic to whatever they make the Dex out of.
Huh. That is an interesting work around. Of course it doesn't solve the primary issue with pre-industrial societies; food production. It does mean they probably don't need to tie up between 60% and 80% of their population farming but it doesn't change that historical farms weren't very efficient.

Back in the early fourteenth century farmers produced about half a tonne of wheat or oats and about a tonne of barley per hectare of land farmed. Today we produce 8.5 tonnes of wheat, 6.4 tons of barley, or 6 tons of oats per hectare. That gives an increase in yield of between 640% and 1,700%. What's more we've had similar levels of increases in productivity across all our agricultural areas. Potatoes, already an amazing food at 10.5 tonnes per hectare, have quadrupled in productivity and corn sextupled.

Of course having colonized over a dozen planets does mitigate this issue but to sustain their legendarily large populations I'd expect the majority of their worlds be primarily farmland.
Of course, considering how integrated magic is with everything, including biology, that may not be as big a difference as you think.
 
Huh. That is an interesting work around. Of course it doesn't solve the primary issue with pre-industrial societies; food production. It does mean they probably don't need to tie up between 60% and 80% of their population farming but it doesn't change that historical farms weren't very efficient.

Back in the early fourteenth century farmers produced about half a tonne of wheat or oats and about a tonne of barley per hectare of land farmed. Today we produce 8.5 tonnes of wheat, 6.4 tons of barley, or 6 tons of oats per hectare. That gives an increase in yield of between 640% and 1,700%. What's more we've had similar levels of increases in productivity across all our agricultural areas. Potatoes, already an amazing food at 10.5 tonnes per hectare, have quadrupled in productivity and corn sextupled.

A good chunk of that has to do with fertilizers and automation. With a necromantically backed automation system we can't estimate how much of their population is tied up with food production because we've no idea how much of their economy is dedicated to supporting the farmers. No seriously, you need to consider how much of the chemical and machinery industries' production is tied up providing fertilizers, various disease and parasite killing chemicals and all the various machines dedicated to tilling the land, growing food and herding the various animals. We would not see anywhere near as much an increase in food production per hour of labour with only 1 of either.
 
That depends on much they have. There's 100,000,000,000 plus tonnes of gold in the earth, while about 225,000 tonnes have mined at the higher estimates. Now, most of that is basically unreachable, but if they could access it through magic, or a world where more is close to the surface, you could have much more then earth.

Now apply that same logic to whatever they make the Dex out of.
There are a lot of different categories of what is "money" but if we look at just physical money (M0) then on Earth there are an estimated five trillion dollars. With a conversion of $0.54/Dex you would need ~9,259,259,259,259 Dex coins just to cover the actual physical cash currently in circulation on Earth.

If we assume each Dex is roughly equvilant in dimensions to a US 50c piece (cylindrical with a radius of 15.3035mm and a height of 2.15mm) and that their density is roughly equivalent to that of titanium (4.506g/cm^2) then each coin would mass roughly 7.13 grams.

So five trillion dollars worth of coinage would mass approximately 65,998,991,637,440 grams or more usefully 65,998,992 tonnes. So depending upon the rarity of the titanium blend it's certainly possible the Elves have flooded their market enough to devalue their coinage down to just $0.54 however that doesn't actually resolve my issue.

Different types of coinage existed for a reason; money is heavy. Even with titanium's low density it's mass still adds up. $100 in Dex would mass 1.3kg and a million dollars would clock in at thirteen tonnes. Meanwhile a $100 bill is practically weightless and you can comfortably carry a million dollars in a briefcase.

So if the Dex was actually sufficiently devalued they would need to transition to an alternate form of currency. This could be simply changing the base materiel but with the implied quantities of material being extracted there probably isn't one rare enough to be of sufficient value. So by necessity they'd probably already have had to shift over to either a representative or fiat currency.


Of course, considering how integrated magic is with everything, including biology, that may not be as big a difference as you think.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting the Elves can't scale up food yields like we did due to it lowering the mana concentration in their food? Or that by using magical farming techniques (IE: zombies everywhere) they increase the yield because it acts as a replacement nutrient? Or some other possibility?

This is a very confusing statement to make when responding to paragraphs covering multiple points.

A good chunk of that has to do with fertilizers and automation. With a necromantically backed automation system we can't estimate how much of their population is tied up with food production because we've no idea how much of their economy is dedicated to supporting the farmers. No seriously, you need to consider how much of the chemical and machinery industries' production is tied up providing fertilizers, various disease and parasite killing chemicals and all the various machines dedicated to tilling the land, growing food and herding the various animals. We would not see anywhere near as much an increase in food production per hour of labour with only 1 of either.
A very tiny amount of the population is dedicated to those things you listed. For example the top five agrochemical companies employed a combined total of a quarter million people. That is just 0.08% of the US population let alone the world population and those companies make plenty of non-agrochemical products so not even that many would be directly connected to agriculture.

It's also worth noting that I don't really begin to try to estimate how much of their population is tied up in agriculture. I just commented on what IRL numbers were historically like and mentioned that their necromancy based economy would probably lower that significantly; freeing up a lot of people for other jobs.
 
A very tiny amount of the population is dedicated to those things you listed. For example the top five agrochemical companies employed a combined total of a quarter million people. That is just 0.08% of the US population let alone the world population and those companies make plenty of non-agrochemical products so not even that many would be directly connected to agriculture.

It's also worth noting that I don't really begin to try to estimate how much of their population is tied up in agriculture. I just commented on what IRL numbers were historically like and mentioned that their necromancy based economy would probably lower that significantly; freeing up a lot of people for other jobs.

A good point, and I'll admit I made an error in assuming that all agricultural production prior to automation was strictly for the purpose of food production.

It's not.

While food production was and remains a key component of agricultural efforts, farms also produced a lot of industrial raw materials and precursors. Flax, silk and wool for cloth, madder and others for dyes, a slew of herbs for spices and medicine and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things. Shifts in this form of production, particularly towards the petrochemical industry, probably also explains a good chunk of the shrinkage of the total part of the population involved in agriculture.
 
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Current Lead: Plan Divine Preparation (18 votes, Runner-Up 4)
Current EXP Lead: Save It~ (10 votes, Runner-Up 7)

For those interested why tally numbers don't match - blame it for still borking UberJJK's vote for some weird reason.
Adhoc vote count started by Faraway-R on May 19, 2018 at 12:44 PM, finished with 103 posts and 26 votes.
 
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[X] Plan Divine Preparation

[X] Plan Upgrade
-[X] Upgrade Celestial Severance to level 20 (540)
-[X] Upgade Starshine to level 20 (540)
Adhoc vote count started by Noname1 on May 19, 2018 at 12:54 PM, finished with 105 posts and 27 votes.
 
[X] Plan Divine Preparation
-[X] Visit Doctor Alexandra's Team
-[X] Team GEAR vs The World
-[X] In Memoire - The White
-[X] Visit the Command Tent / Go On a Mission
--[X] The Pale Light of The Moon(Operation: Artemis)

[x] Save It~
 
Well, to start with, the average Elf actually isn't all that rich. So the weight of Dex doesn't tend to be much of a problem. Also remember that representative and Fiat currency is also a human idea that was eventually added to overcome those problems (as far as I know). Elves never actually ran into those problems and subsequently never really had to worry about it much, so instead of going for some kind of representative currency, they simply went for rarer stuff to make their currency out of instead.

No one ever thought of paper money until the Akashic Pillar started waving it around.

As for the food thing, remember that Magic can stop-gap a lot of things. They're closer to three times as efficient with the food thing than we were at an equivalent technology level, but that's probably not saying much. Remember that Elves comes down heavily on the Quantity side of the Quantity vs Quality debate. But also remember that they're not stupid: if something comes along that they can easily mass-produce for the greater portion of their population, then they won't hesitate to figure out how to do that for themselves. It's a little fact that has them currently loving humanity right now.

But back to the money thing, let's just say that if a middle-income U.S. Citizen had all of their income converted to Dex and moved to the Empire, they'd likely be more than capable of living as a low-end Noble. A little fact that leaves immigration between the two polities as a tightly controlled thing. Both sides are well aware that the Akashic Pillar is economically unstoppable compared to the Empire, and neither side really wants one to swallow the other via debt.
 
Well, to start with, the average Elf actually isn't all that rich. So the weight of Dex doesn't tend to be much of a problem. Also remember that representative and Fiat currency is also a human idea that was eventually added to overcome those problems (as far as I know). Elves never actually ran into those problems and subsequently never really had to worry about it much, so instead of going for some kind of representative currency, they simply went for rarer stuff to make their currency out of instead.

No one ever thought of paper money until the Akashic Pillar started waving it around.

As for the food thing, remember that Magic can stop-gap a lot of things. They're closer to three times as efficient with the food thing than we were at an equivalent technology level, but that's probably not saying much. Remember that Elves comes down heavily on the Quantity side of the Quantity vs Quality debate. But also remember that they're not stupid: if something comes along that they can easily mass-produce for the greater portion of their population, then they won't hesitate to figure out how to do that for themselves. It's a little fact that has them currently loving humanity right now.

But back to the money thing, let's just say that if a middle-income U.S. Citizen had all of their income converted to Dex and moved to the Empire, they'd likely be more than capable of living as a low-end Noble. A little fact that leaves immigration between the two polities as a tightly controlled thing. Both sides are well aware that the Akashic Pillar is economically unstoppable compared to the Empire, and neither side really wants one to swallow the other via debt.
So, in other words, the Empire has a much greater Gross Domestic Product, but the Akashic Pillar has a better GDP per capita?
 
Well, to start with, the average Elf actually isn't all that rich. So the weight of Dex doesn't tend to be much of a problem. Also remember that representative and Fiat currency is also a human idea that was eventually added to overcome those problems (as far as I know). Elves never actually ran into those problems and subsequently never really had to worry about it much, so instead of going for some kind of representative currency, they simply went for rarer stuff to make their currency out of instead.
The average Elf, much like the average human, doesn't actually matter here. The problem is the nobility. Lets say your an Elf noble and want to buy a new house. A middle of the range house in the USA (IE: the median price) costs $200,000. Now obviously prices will vary but let's take that as a not unreasonable figure for a noble's home. $200,000 is 370,371 Dex which mass 2,641kg or a little over two and a half tonnes. Transporting that is quite the challenge with medieval technology and is just begging for it to be attacked by bandits

This applies to any of the numerous large scale transactions a noble is likely to make. Compounding this is that not only do nobles have to worry of safely transporting such large amounts of money they also have to worry about safely storing such amounts. To put things into perspective Scrooge McDuck's famous money bin would only hold $58,103,328 in Dex.

Historically the answer to these problems was banks. You paid a bank to store all your gold coins for you and in return you got a promissory note. Of course people, being lazy, found it was much easier to simply exchange those promissory notes, which had no ID attached, rather then go to the bank, get your coins, risk traveling with them, and then paying. Thus representative money was born.

Fiat money came much later and through a complex series of processes involving the first and second world wars. I can totally buy them not having fiat money, honestly it's kinda amazing we have it, but to make sense they really need either multiple coin types (IE: pound, shilling, and penny equivalents) or some form of representative currency.

As for the food thing, remember that Magic can stop-gap a lot of things. They're closer to three times as efficient with the food thing than we were at an equivalent technology level, but that's probably not saying much. Remember that Elves comes down heavily on the Quantity side of the Quantity vs Quality debate. But also remember that they're not stupid: if something comes along that they can easily mass-produce for the greater portion of their population, then they won't hesitate to figure out how to do that for themselves. It's a little fact that has them currently loving humanity right now.
I'm honestly not sure humanity could help them. The big revolutions in food production primarily came from improved fertilizers which require massive amounts of electricity to produce (or rather the nitrogen in them) and pesticides which wouldn't be applicable to their pests.

But back to the money thing, let's just say that if a middle-income U.S. Citizen had all of their income converted to Dex and moved to the Empire, they'd likely be more than capable of living as a low-end Noble. A little fact that leaves immigration between the two polities as a tightly controlled thing. Both sides are well aware that the Akashic Pillar is economically unstoppable compared to the Empire, and neither side really wants one to swallow the other via debt.
This has wide ranging effects not just on immigration but trade in general. I'll probably go into some detail on the implications of all this tomorrow.
 
Remember I never personally took an economics class, so a lot of this is cobbled together from what little I've picked up third-hand.

If you really want to work on it until it makes more sense, I'd be more than willing to work it over with you in PMs.
 
ITT: Man Who Knows Nothing About Economics Makes An Economy vs Man Who Knows Things About Economics Breaks An Economy
 
If your up for it this discussion has seemed fun enough that I'd be willing to work it over with you.
Awesome, send me a PM and we can continue this in there. We can also work on the Fairy economy and the Dark Stars as well.

Heaven, Hell, and the Children of Nightmare don't have anything resembling economies so we don't have to worry about that.
 
I'm honestly not sure humanity could help them. The big revolutions in food production primarily came from improved fertilizers which require massive amounts of electricity to produce (or rather the nitrogen in them) and pesticides which wouldn't be applicable to their pests.

Although nitrogen is the most common fertilizer, in no small part because nitrogen fixation is extremely energy intensive, it's hardly the only one. It's just the one that plants put a lot of effort in because fixing carbon isn't that hard, hydrogen is a key component of the major solvent of life in general, oxygen is actually a waste product for plants and every other substance they need can't come out of the air and has to be supplied through the water table. Including phosphate, which as a key component of the cell's energy handling system and the backbone for DNA strands.
 
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting the Elves can't scale up food yields like we did due to it lowering the mana concentration in their food? Or that by using magical farming techniques (IE: zombies everywhere) they increase the yield because it acts as a replacement nutrient? Or some other possibility?

This is a very confusing statement to make when responding to paragraphs covering multiple points.
That the plants themselves are magical, and thus may grow easier and with greater yields then earthly equivalents would have. Plus the magical farming techniques thing.

Though the first point is a good one that may apply.
The average Elf, much like the average human, doesn't actually matter here. The problem is the nobility. Lets say your an Elf noble and want to buy a new house. A middle of the range house in the USA (IE: the median price) costs $200,000. Now obviously prices will vary but let's take that as a not unreasonable figure for a noble's home. $200,000 is 370,371 Dex which mass 2,641kg or a little over two and a half tonnes. Transporting that is quite the challenge with medieval technology and is just begging for it to be attacked by bandits

This applies to any of the numerous large scale transactions a noble is likely to make. Compounding this is that not only do nobles have to worry of safely transporting such large amounts of money they also have to worry about safely storing such amounts. To put things into perspective Scrooge McDuck's famous money bin would only hold $58,103,328 in Dex.

Historically the answer to these problems was banks. You paid a bank to store all your gold coins for you and in return you got a promissory note. Of course people, being lazy, found it was much easier to simply exchange those promissory notes, which had no ID attached, rather then go to the bank, get your coins, risk traveling with them, and then paying. Thus representative money was born.
There is one thing could mean that fiat/representative currency wasn't/isn't needed: magic, and more specifically, the elves extensive teleportation system. Those 2 and half tonnes would be a bit over half a cubic metre. Load it on a chart, move it through a portal, what would have taken days/weeks/months for humans is done in a few hours.

Elven banks, therefore, would likely resemble more a moving service to transport your money more then what happened amongst humans.
 
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There is one thing could mean that fiat/representative currency wasn't/isn't needed: magic, and more specifically, the elves extensive teleportation system. Those 2 and half tonnes would be a bit over half a cubic metre. Load it on a chart, move it through a portal, what would have taken days/weeks/months for humans is done in a few hours.

Elven banks, therefore, would likely resemble more a moving service to transport your money more then what happened amongst humans.
I don't, off the top of my head, recall the elves ever being mentioned to have P2P teleportation.
 
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