- Location
- Right Where I Am
Yeah, like I said, even if you do have access now it's not a bad idea to wait for something with the CF Guarantee of less paradox concern.
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
It also makes sense for him to be worried, as him potentially being gay puts an even bigger target in his back, since if he's both black and gay in BB that puts a large target on his back if any E88 members find out or hear about it. Not just that, it could even put a target on their family or even gym members depending on how much a fanatic? Zealot? Whatever the word said members are. Though I suppose we'd have to take into account stuff like E88 presence in the area, how extreme the members are, whether/how much Mr Laborn knows about their presence and how they'd hear about it in the first place, or even if Mr Laborn thinks that deeply about it
I was thinking about this, but more in TT hell context:
Lisa: *She knows Joe longer then her brother*
Lisa: ....WTF...
I wonder if Lisa would assume time travel or temporal dilation first. Either one could be a suitable explanation...
To be fair it is possible; like in time they have passed together in Knowing each other is more than what she had with her brother so it would register like that.
Did something change with how his team relationships and I miss it? Or was he musing about just them bonding and growing up a bit? Aisha is more a teammate now, but the others haven't really changed. They've been maturing.
Part of me would like to smack Joe for his inner thoughts. Joe, you aren't remotely mastering folks by giving them a vastly better way to do things that they keep doing. The main reason that they have kept doing it that way is simple. It works.
If everything had blown over and the gym went back to full-time gym, then all the changes would go poof. They are still in that emergency mode. The folks running things got pointed in the right direction and are finally getting a feel for things. Of course, they aren't going to be changing things that are working at the moment. No need to. It's a matter of them not wanting to screw things up and have been managing things the one way that they all know-how.
I could actually see some folks writing it down in a manual somewhere and if it's ever needed again all this gets redone with about the same effects.
Joe so needs a cult. The skulls will convert the Titans first.
Doug is the best NPC quest giver. The gym so needs a quest board.
The Laborn's family stuff will be amusing. Aisha, Brian, and Joe don't know anything about the gym rumors of Alec and Brian being a couple. Joe only knows them in their cape roles. He isn't close enough to know if it is true. It wouldn't really register as important to him. Now, it would be funny if Aisha didn't know or was trying to be supportive. I could see Mr. L being supportive while Aisha thinks Brian could do better.
Aisha would mention it to Taylor when she eventually meets Brian's friends. That'd be enough for Taylor to write off Brian as mere eye candy.
Doug's one mistake was not asking Joe for help with the paperwork.
His RNG hates the magic group.
Part of me would like to smack Joe for his inner thoughts. Joe, you aren't remotely mastering folks by giving them a vastly better way to do things that they keep doing. The main reason that they have kept doing it that way is simple. It works.
If everything had blown over and the gym went back to full-time gym, then all the changes would go poof. They are still in that emergency mode. The folks running things got pointed in the right direction and are finally getting a feel for things. Of course, they aren't going to be changing things that are working at the moment. No need to. It's a matter of them not wanting to screw things up and have been managing things the one way that they all know-how.
I could actually see some folks writing it down in a manual somewhere and if it's ever needed again all this gets redone with about the same effects.
Joe so needs a cult. The skulls will convert the Titans first.
Doug is the best NPC quest giver. The gym so needs a quest board.
The Laborn's family stuff will be amusing. Aisha, Brian, and Joe don't know anything about the gym rumors of Alec and Brian being a couple. Joe only knows them in their cape roles. He isn't close enough to know if it is true. It wouldn't really register as important to him. Now, it would be funny if Aisha didn't know or was trying to be supportive. I could see Mr. L being supportive while Aisha thinks Brian could do better.
Aisha would mention it to Taylor when she eventually meets Brian's friends. That'd be enough for Taylor to write off Brian as mere eye candy.
Doug's one mistake was not asking Joe for help with the paperwork.
His RNG hates the magic group.
If I recall Lethe/Aisha went around sneakily healing people caught up in the aftermath of the whole ABB debacle. And since this is Apeiron's tech they got healed of all aliments.
AntaeusTheGiant
Child of Gaea
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
That is supposed to happen tomorrow Brockton Bay time, so probably 6 or more chapter/weeks for us at least. Just because Tetra wants it soon doesn't mean that would be for the best.. we have WOG that the Kamui would be greatly improved if Jozef has acquired the "Craftsman of the Gods" perk from the Quality Constellation and the Viking Saga setting before he does that work.
Umm is that even possible at this point tho?
What's the point of collecting data if any information you find, any plan you make and any contingency you take becomes hilariously useless the next time Apeiron shows up?
I thought people are finally starting to realize that you don't make countermeasures against Apeiron, you just throw everything you've got at him and hope something sticks..
- Location
- Deep inside the sand
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Actually Joe cannot write without style powers coming up. So for Joe's part it was a thankful mistake.
Think those dates need fixed worm is 2011 not 2012 and you've got posts on the 17th and 18th referring to stuff like the ungodly hour. The current in story date is Monday the 25th of April the ungodly hour happened late on the Thursday night and carried into Friday morning with clean up. So either the tones are too recent for stuff that happened almost a year ago or you need to change to 2011 and push the dates back slightly. There's also a bit near the start where verified cape posts twice in a row but from context the first should be 2cool4school.
- Location
- Deep inside the sand
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Liked Marquis GloryGirls threads. It was a nice touch!
PHO - East's Coast Worst, Apeiron and Marquis (Martian_Tech)
■
Welcome to the Parahumans Online message boards.
You are currently logged in, Placeholder_User
You are viewing:
• Threads you have replied to
• AND Threads that have new replies
• OR private message conversations with new replies
• Thread OP is displayed.
• Ten posts per page
• Last ten messages in private message history.
• Threads and private messages are ordered chronologically.
■
♦ Topic: East's Coast Worst
In: Boards ► Brockton Bay
Redcross (Original Poster) (First Responder)
Posted On Apr 26th 2011:
OKAY! So this thread is primarily a discussion thread about the current state of the city and the events that took place prior and during the month of April (Debut of Apeiron).
This ISN'T speculation about the future, it's a discussion about the current state of the poorer parts of the bay and what led it to this state. So let's stay on topic people.
And a reminder that as calm as Brockton Bay has been it still was a disaster just a couple days ago so please be respectful. I've already contacted mods to watch the threads.
(Showing page 1 of 5)
►TwoBitz
Replied On Apr 26th 2011:
2 really discuss the full scope of events, where do we even begin??? D.Piggot getting the job? formation of the BB gang scene and marquis?
TBH, BB has been a timebomb since 4ever. every problem compounds onto the next, and it just keeps goin.
i dont think there is any 1 thing that can take the full blame for this. its just compounding failure n short shortsightedness.
but the srysly, the biggest failure is how BB managed to stay in that position 4 so long w/out outside help. dont we have ppl 4 this kind of sit8tion?
the youth guard should have been on their asses the minute a ward was anywhere near lung TBH. everything w/ vista is just disgusting
►Drahtwire
Replied On Apr 26th 2011:
I'd like to start this thread of to a positive start.
Thank you to everyone who has been helping out in the Black Out Zone. We've been getting donations from everywhere and people from all over the city have been coming to help out.
The same goes for the first responders who've been risking their lives helping my neighbors out.
►MiteyLion
Replied On Apr 26th 2011:
There's something to be said about people coming together in times of stress, from our emergency workers and volunteers, to donations coming in from outside of BB.
Honestly, we haven't been appreciating our local emergency forces lately, with all this focus on the Protectorate imploding, they've been hit hard by the attacks. Current death toll is a lot, to say the least.
Normal people have been picking up the slack when the cape side of the city has been eating itself, and this might be Parahumans Online, but all of us normal folk are important too.
Y'all, go check around for charity drives or places you can donate too. Every bit matters.
Speaking on the political side of things: Director Piggot clearly has her days numbered. How did we get into this holding pattern where half the city was run by gangs and villains?
►EvilToaster
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Gotta say, I respect people who live in this city full time. I only passing by and got caught in all this nightmare and yet next day people just... start salvaging situation just fine. Sure, few long faces here and there but fact that people can rise up and keep pushing forward really inspiring hope.
I got caught in one of the blasts, but nothing serious, it was glancing blow at best. Although I've seen on my way to the hospital what other glancing blows could've done to me... brrr. I think medics going to let me go today, so question: where I can sign up to be a volunteer? Do I need some equipment with me? I have old pickup, it's not old enough to enter blackout zone, I checked (this list if someone interested; if your car IS NOT on this list DO NOT attempt to enter blackout zone!), but I have some construction equipment in there, might be useful. Thanks in advance!
►SapphicForSapphires (Cape Wife)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
I'm going to come right out and ask the question that is the entire reason I read this part of the boards. Does the Nazi infestation look like it is metastasizing?
►2schooled4cool
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
As controversial as this might be i think things really went south when Marquis was caged, i still vividly remember feeling like the world was starting to tilt when The Brigade got on scene and were applauded for bringing him in (through methods that would have them all killed now days).
Was proven right in the following months as nice parks (nice for BB, atleast) went from the daily place to visit to the playground of the Hitler youth, or how without the organised neighborhood-watches suddenly the BBPD couldn't respond to break-ins and muggings in time anymore.
Not to blame New Wave or anything (atleast not the ones actually doing the heroing), it's just that Marquis was basically doing the Protectorates, cops and PRT's job for them, and suddenly they had to pick up the slack.
►VerifiedCape (Verified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@2schooled4cool maybe you're too young to remember the stuff you think you remember, but Allfather filled that town with Hitler youth so badly they spilled into Boston before Marquis even triggered. Hell, noble Marquis, our lord and saviour (this is sarcasm), straight up butchered Iron Rain. On one hand - couldn't happen to a more deserving psycho - on the other hand - they nearly evacuated the city during the retaliation, which they've never had to do when a Cape was arrested and sent to trial.
Unless you try to trace the whole ungodly hour to Lung getting nicked, which is a really oversimplified take
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@MiteyLion
HoW dId We GeT iNtO tHiS hOlDiNg PaTtErN?
Well, I tell you how. Because the feckless government and its fat cat leaders couldn't be arsed to help people that don't donate to their overglorified protection racket. After all, why risk life and limb for people when you get no money out of it, right? Dirtbags.
@SapphicForSapphires
Ha! As if that'll ever happen. I can assure you, the skinheads will be out in force soon enough.
@2schooled4cool
EX-FUCKING-CUSE ME! Marquis? Making things better!? What bloody city did you live in? That monster was a thug and nothing more, he just had some nice PR because of his 'rules' and shit. I had to bury some friends because they ran afoul of of that skeleton with delusions of grandeur!
@VerifiedCape
Oh dear god, I remember that. Some of the worst days of my life, me and some friends actually pooled our funds to build a shelter afterwards in case it happened again, it was that bad. Seriously, Marquis was scum, may he rot in the Birdcage for the rest of his miserable life.
►NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Ah good to see people smacking around morons who whimpering about "ohh mah markisee mah hira". You never saw shit this bastard did to others, my pal left police because he once got to clean up what left of poor sobs that crossed Marquis's way, he had troubles looking at steaks for months. This shit ain't okay. For each person Marquis saved he murdered like five.
@EvilToster, here, bring all equipment you want, nobody would say no to that.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 2 of 5)
►CourtedByCrimson
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
If you actually go and do the analysis, he probably would have saved more than he killed if he didn't consider certain crimes in "his" territory an instant death sentence but the man had zero chill on sexual assault and always stepped straight up to murder, especially if it was multiple people sexually assaulting one person. If you're using the five to one number though, that tells me you're only counting people who were saved from murder, not sexual assault victims who "probably would have survived" according to the police who were friends with one of his early public examples as to why cops should absolutely not sexually assault motorists under the pretense of a traffic ticket. When you look at the fact that most of the people he saved could be called oppressed, and most of the people he killed could be called in power, it is not surprising at all that his bad deeds got more airtime than his good ones. I'm in no way saying he was a hero, or that he didn't do the terrible things people say he did, but I am saying that in a world where nazis get to walk after admitting to murdering a hero like Fleur, it's not surprising that someone who killed to protect the oppressed got the book thrown at him in a way you'll never see with, say, Hookwolf or Victor, despite each of their comparatively impressive kill counts. Why? Because the DA cares about the kind of people Marquis' victims portrayed themselves as more than they care about the victims of the Empire.
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Excuse me, are you out of your mind? Marquis didn't give two fucks about how oppressed the people he saved were, just about his fucked up sense of right and wrong. The people he killed were 'in power'? Well, let me tell you something:
Will Burton
John Banker
Gabriel Washington
Three friends of mine, who got ganked by that sick fuck. A taxi driver, an office worker and the owner of a small store. None of them committed any crime, or had any influence on the politics of the city. Each left behind a grieving family. And all of that because some dickbag decided that he needed to 'make an example'.
Someone who killed to protect the oppressed my fat ass, the thing they needed protection from was that skeletor in a fucking skinsuit motherfucker. Seriously, he didn't do shit to protect anyone, he just didn't like other people committing crimes in his backyard, that was something only he could do, you know.
Also, your claim that Hookwolf wouldn't get the book thrown at him is ludicrous, since he got sentenced to the Birdcage as well, his buddies simply broke him out of the transport.
►NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@CourtedByCrimson, tell this to those smugglers my pal packed away. SMUGGLERS. Those weren't even some drug addicts, no-no, those were just dudes who pick up cargo in one place and offload it in other. Basically, porters, but illegal. Why they were killed and mutilated beyond belief? Why, they didn't pay the fee for Oh So Holy Marquis.
Frankly, anyone who claims that Marquis was somehow "good" for the city is delusional and one of those nutjobs who claim that ABB/Nazi dipshits are also good cuz "they keeping balance". If you want to see how well it ended look out of your window if you in BB and if you not then look up a tiny tiny local cape event called Ungodly Hour.
►MacrossPicrossWhen
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Don't know anything about the other two, but the daughters of John Banker, VP of Medhall's opioids division, who could loosely be described as an office worker, were absolutely not grieving him when he died. Any tears were of relief. Also kind of funny that they announced the exact day Hookwolf was being transferred on the news. They didn't do that with any other villains, not since they took down Madcap.
►Judge (Moderator)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@Camealot @NeoTheMatrixSpamBot, while your outrage is understandable, it is very out-of-topic at this point. You two will be let off with a warning, with @CourtedByCrimson getting a bigger one for exacerbating the issue. Any further mention of Marquis-related incidents that don't have any relevance to current topic will be met with further infractions.
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Alright, warning received.
On another note, anyone has any idea what it's like on the ground in the former ABB territory? Recently a lot of 'legitimate businesses' got exposed and subsequently stormed by police. With Lung taken down for good and the gang gone, just how bad is the damage? Are there even any shops left there? Or any houses still standing?
Cause, you know the shelter I mentioned previously? Well, we stocked it with enough supplies for all eight of us and our families to last for two years, and since there are only two of us left and all our families have left the Bay, we have a lot of surplus food, clothing, etc. So if any of you guys need it, give me a call and I'll see about sending some of it to you.
►NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Well. If we going on topic, than it was biggest shitshow this city saw PERIOD. And this city saw all out brawl between all gangs which culminated in fight between Teeth and S9 dipshits. God I was never ever more relived that I ditched this city and left to Boston.
While we - and by "we" I mean me, my friends and all our relatives - did make it out of the last disaster without loses, this one... Well.
Marcus Bright was a good man, had amazing wife and two beautiful children. All of that was wiped out without a trace when some ABB piece of shit fucking erased their flat out of existence. We dont even have anything to bury, not even albums or something. Four people, full family, all of their belongings, just gone an instant. I am not envying his brother, who will have to deliver news to his parents and a third brother back in LA.
After this is over, I am going to do my darnedest to persuade all my friends to leave this city for good. No offense to BB, but I would like to see my friends alive and well, thank you very much.
@Camealot, try asking people there, they trying to coordinate volunteers and distribute help.
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
You and his family have my utmost condolences.
On that note, I'd like to mention Fabian O'Connel, a 20 year veteran of the BB Fire Fighters, who perished during the Ungodly Hour due to a piece of shrapnel. Rest in peace old chap.
No offense is taken, if you can get your friends out of this hellhole, I'd recommend you do it. With news that the Butcher and Lost Garden are in town, and Uber & Leet's whereabouts unknown, I foresee no end to the violence plaguing this dungheap.
Thank you for the information.
►2schooled4cool
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
You'd think that hospitals, even our glorious capitalist ones, would be able to handle disasters better but they've practically fallen in on themselves.
Not throwing any flack on the nurses and doctors sweating their asses off on their >24 hour workdays but the general management of resources and beds, especially in the bigger places, is abhorrent.
I've legit heard from a handful of people (mostly friends and coworkers) how they expected patients with broken legs, major skin burns and skull damage to be up and going within hours instead of days.
►Septiumsenpriu
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@2schooled4cool I'm pretty sure that's because they relied on Panacea too much, this kind of thing is what NEPA-5 is supposed to prevent, and this is a good reason why. (Not to say that it doesn't have it's flaws, but it's got a good reason for existing.)
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 3 of 5)
►BrocktonBroiled
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
She's been volunteering because NEPEA says she can't get paid. If she'd been getting paid all along, at least the budget would be there now that they need it. Budgets work on a use it or lose it basis. It didn't look like anyone else needed it so Medhall's CEO got half and the hospital admin who gave it to him got the other half.
►LunaC
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@BrocktonBoiled That reminds me of something I've been asking around about that nobody seems to know the answer to: Just how much work has that girl been putting in?
Companies don't have to track volunteer work, since it's free Good Samaritan labor, but it's good to do it anyways in order to help the management figure out which of their employees they should not be paying for sitting around on their asses during volunteer work hours. Helps everyone keep their practiced workers practiced.
And yet, by all accounts I can find, Miss Panacea has been putting in those hospital hours for years and not one official has bothered to actually log her overall time. I'm trying not to bash you guys at the hospitals, you clearly keep everyone you can in one piece while she's not there, but what exactly have you all been doing while miss magic-hands sends a patient out the doors every five minutes for hours on end?
►BrocktonBroiled
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Believe it or not, Brockton General is one of two hospitals in Brockton Bay to place in the top five in the country in terms of neurosurgery, largely because Panacea can't touch brains. You hear talk about "medical tourism" to Brockton Bay and it's not people waiting in line for Panacea. It's our neurosurgeons.
►LunaC
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@BrocktonBoiled I'll admit I did not know that, but my point was missed. A hospital, a full fledged, worthy-of-the-name hospital, is not run on neurosurgeons alone. If it was, it'd be called a neurosurgery clinic, not a hospital.
So I ask again, rephrased: what did all you non-neurosurgeons do while Panacea blazed trails through your wards during her hours? Again, I'm not trying to bash, blame, or slander any of y'all, especially not while you're eyeball deep in shit after UH. But someone has clearly fucked up something if I can't find a single record of Panacea's hours on any BB hospital website, aside from her initial volunteer testing on the PRT's website.
Did she literally just walk in, roll up her sleeves, and start working? Every day? That's not how hospitals are supposed to work people. That's not how any business is supposed to work.
►EverydayMan
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
I can't comment on Panacea's situation with the hospitals, but I can venture a guess as to how things got so bad in the city.
The general gist of things is, from a law enforcement perspective, it makes zero sense for the Protectorate or PRT to exist as outside of normal law enforcement. The Protectorate should be treated the way that S.W.A.T teams were treated before the PRT came around - they existed, part of an existing organizational structure, and were used for very specific purposes. They weren't a separate organization - there was none of the jurisdiction insanity that currently exists today (I don't know if it's as bad in other cities as it is in Brockton.)
It seems like every time you hear about some Empire thugs getting arrested now ('now' being prior to 'that night'), their cases would end up getting taken over by the PRT because the leader of the gang is a parahuman - sometimes even when a parahuman wasn't involved. The thing is... the PRT isn't set up to deal with normal crime. It never has been; it's meant to be the anvil to the Protectorate's hammer. And maybe it works better in other cities where crime isn't so intrinsically tied to parahuman gangs, but here it causes jurisdictional and budgetary clusterfucks, and thus makes all the organizations involved work less efficiently. The information exchange is broken, with the PRT often hiding or simply not telling normal cops information they deserve to know, and thus puts them in more danger than necessary.
My brother is on the force, and he could tell you of tons of stories about cases being stolen out underneath them by the PRT, with often no real justification being given. And more often than not, they 'seem' to screw things up, or just ignore them because 'oh, we have other concerns.' From what my brother told me, a particularly nasty case one of his colleagues had in a school here a few months ago got swiped with no explanation, and when they tried to find out the status of the investigation a week or so ago, they found out that nothing had been done as of yet.
►CSellsCShells
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Gonna be frank, BB took a supersonic kick to the balls when Leviathan showed his fugly mug, and it's been dying a slow death of gonad hemorrhaging ever since.
See, for those of y'all that failed history class, BB used to be a pretty busy little port. Not the biggest per say, but most everyone who couldn't make Boston's mile long shipping queue would end up dropping by Brockton Bay as their next choice. This meant that BB got an average amount of business, and was actually on the global oceanic trade map.
Now, can anyone guess what happened to global oceanic trade when an aquatic Endbringer popped up out of the eldritch depths of the sea? Go on, guess. Nevermind that by all accounts the fucking lizard's never even been recorded pasting a boat that hasn't been in a city he was smashing, when thar be dragons under those waves, no corporation wants to be the brave one.
So oceanic trade got dragged out to an empty parking lot and shot full of holes, and now BB is a port city with no trade. And then a bunch of maritime nutjobs got pissed there was no work because of no trade, so they blocked off the fucking bay with the biggest damn boat they could find. So now BB is a port city that can't port.
Couple this with the railroad as an entity going to complete hell as containment zones started springing up like weeds, and BB finds itself dropped to priority numero nope in the eyes of the world overall.
►King_of_the_sea
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@CSellsCShells those "maritime nutjobs" weren't mad because there was no work they were mad because a bunch of the were either laid of or had a massive pay cut while the owners of the port had the biggest bonus in 15 years. Like i get that they are an easy target because their protest got out of hand but they were not the problem. if you want somebody to blame, blame the merchants it's because of them that the railroad the other major source of income got abandoned.
►codexmaster
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
The Bay's history really just is one long, slow, fuckup. The worst thing happens, at the worst possible time, in the worst circumstances, rinse and repeat. It's like somebody channeled every surrounding city's bad luck into the place. Shit has been hitting the fan for decades, the fan was just set at a really slow speed and it was only a few balls of shit at a time.
The Leviathan might have started the cascade, but it's snowballed due to human actions.
There should have been a larger response years ago to handle the local issues and fix the gaping holes in the system. Damn profit incentives and media coverage over peoples lives.
Wonder where they stuck the case files? The trashcan? Even just taking a deeper look into the lineups of the gangs versus the heros should have been cause for some investigation or support. BB has been crawling with capes, where was the outside regulation? Off in more prosperous cities. Still, you'd think we'd be able to prioritize one of the 'cape capitals' rather than just allowing the villain scene to grow unchecked for so long. But I guess that would have choked BB's last revenue stream in its crib.
The most irritating thing about all of this is that realistically, there is no one to blame. There are many, many people who contributed, but each were a tiny cog of idiocy and short term planning in this massive machine of incompetency. Sure, a few people fucked up more than the rest, but definitely not everything. Theres not many people we can point fingers too, just systemic issues compounded in shitty situations.
(Yes Director Piggot did absolutely fuck up here, not denying that, but theres more complexity to the situation)
BB has basically been a hellhole run by drugged up supervillains for years. Now it's just completely literal.
It's like everything in this city was balancing on fucking toothpicks, and it falling down has initiated some horrible goldbergs machine of shitty situations. Every goddamned thing has apparently been held together with tape, a single person, and hopes and prayers.
I wonder how badly would things have been if BBB/NW hadn't been around to cover the Protectorate's asses for so long? Was their presence a reassuring thing to everyone else? How did NW even survive for so long without any investigation on Panacea with the Youth Guard? If she was that vital to keep the medical system from collapsing, shouldn't help have been sent, rather than just fudging the paperwork to keep exploiting a child? Who made the calls on letting the literal Nazi infestation get so bad?
What even is this cities Wards program? Has Piggot ever talked with the police or anybody, at any point?
Figuring out how bad BB has been is like trying to solve a rubix cube, except it's covered in shit and on fire, and you're trying to roller blade on a treadmill at the same time, all well there's a gun to your head.
TLDR: BB sucks, go donate and support emergency workers.
►ThatGuy
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
I mean, the PRT may leak like a sieve but it's not like anyone empire would go to jail even if the police did keep the cases. It's practically an open secret that at least 90% of them are empire. I wouldn't be surprised if most empire thugs aren't even brought in after being "arrested". Hell, I'm pretty sure I saw the same thug walking the street barely an hour after getting cuffed once.
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Alright, so you wanna know why the Bay's a shithole? Stupidity and fucking laziness, that's why.
We can blame the fucking sea lizard all we want, but the main reason why trade decreased is that everywhere's fucked due to capes showing up and exacerbating every issue they involve themselves in. Because of that stability has gone down the drain, best seen with Africa (where there's almost only warlords now) and China (where the fucking CUI made sure that they became an isolated international pariah). Nobody's gonna trade overseas if there's a) nobody to trade with because there's either no government at all or a totalitarian dictatorship that can at any point utterly fuck you over and b) some cape can at any point decide that piracy is fun, and powers make all the difference in combat. So trade was decreasing anyways.
So when the remaining merchants looked for a port at the Eastern Coast they saw both Brockton and Boston very close by, one of which had more infrastructure than the other, and it wasn't the Bay. In other words, Brockton became superfluous.
But there was still some trade going through BB, so the port remained open. But with a lower demand for their services the fuckers working at the dock got their pay docked, because guess what, that's how the fucking economy works. Instead of doing something productive, these chucklefucks decided to sink some tankers in the Bay, insuring that no ships could come to the Bay, putting themselves out of work. Fucking brilliant of those guys, truly a scheme worthy of Accord.
Anyways, now with everyone even remotely connected to maritime trade (which amounts to a lot more people than just the dockworkers) out of work, a lot of people turned to crime. Nobody wanted to invest into the city because having the inhabitants literally sink you investment to the fucking bottom of the sea discourages that rather thoroughly.
Now, crime was an issue before, the E88 has a long history in the Bay, this truly kicked it off. Local lawenforcement didn't have the means to kick the gangs out and nobody outside the Bay cared enough about this place to send anything but empty platitudes, allowing the gangs to entrench themselves to such an extent, that the removal of the ABB will actually result in a significant drop of the city's GDP and income, because so many businesses were connected to the gang.
So yeah, that's why the place is a shithole. Political and economic instability, dumb fucks who couldn't find their way out of a wet paper bag even if you handed them a map, and a political system which refused to do anything about the city's issues so long as nobody was paying attention.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 4 of 5)
►Mewwmix
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
So, TLDR: everythings gone to shit, and everyone in power managed to fuck it up. Also, capes suck.
Yup, business as usual!
►NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Amen to that. Especially "Capes suck" part. BB may be was a shithole, but before those powered freaks started running the show properly, it was at least tolerable shithole.
►Judge (Moderator)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Okay let's pull it back on the Anti-Parahuman sentiments we're getting really close to breaking PHO's discrimination rules.
►BeleagueredModerater (Moderator)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Hey everyone, I'm here in this thread, reading it. Please resume following the rules like I know you all can. I don't want to have to infract anyone. Yes, that's right. We got so many reports that TWO mods showed up. That doesn't make anyone happy.
►Dread_P1rate_Steve (Shipping Enthusiast)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
The economy and political situation in Brocton is definitely endemic to many towns that were on the rise in the advent of parahumans. Said problems, mostly class disparities, were only made worse with the emergance of the endbringers. While I will always support unions the Association at the time had made what was probably the worst decision they couldve made at the time, blockading the bay lead to an already anemic maritime industry being finally taken off life support as the Mayor and several companies at the time already saw industry in Brocton as a money sink and not as investments.
There have actually been several proposals for what to do with the boat graveyard, seeing as many of the companies who's boats were sunk there sought to recoup losses in any manner and the private vessels were already removed.The problem is politically and economically the amount of effort spent on the graveyard isnt worth it. As a matter of fact some the proposals have been posted very publically by both the DAU(can be found within the news & events page on their website) and Brockton University's maricultural department(can be found in their school newsletter section they have many articles dedicated to the proposal and subsequent rejection). Both host some very promising ideas the problem is scraping up the political and physical capital to do it, and with a city that's bleeding tax payer money just to keep the status quo Brockton isnt going to see a whoke lot of relief effort done without some major federal intervention.
Unfortunately Brockton has always been at the bottom of the list when it comes to economic stimulus it seems. Like as much as I want to blame the PRT and the shitshow that is jurisdiction in Brocton Bay I can legitimately say Piggot was handed an old faulty pressur cooker when she took up the position. Now, the government on the other hand I can definitely place direct blam onto, they shouldve at the very least called in the coast guard to deal with the blockade in a manner that didn't wreck Brocton's shipping industry.
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@Dread_P1rate_Steve
Oh, thank god, FINALLY someone who gets it. Yeah, of course no company wants to set up here, after all, you wouldn't build a house in a fucking swamp. So long as crime is so ridiculously high and the workers too willing to trash your property, nobody's going to look at BB and be like 'yeah, this looks like a great place for a factory'.
It also has to be mentioned that the supply chains have already adapted to the loss of the Brockton harbor, so even if the Graveyard was cleared, we most likely still wouldn't see any real recovery.
Still doesn't excuse half the shit she's done, yeah, she was handed a fucking trashheap but for fucks sake, not getting dozens of people kidnapped and enslaved really shouldn't be so fucking hard.
I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm gonna have to, ah, defend the gov here. Having been a minor bureaucrat at the time, I was somewhat privy to the going ons at the time, and I can tell you this, shit was really chaotic. Nobody knew what was going on, everyone was screaming their heads off or alternatively not saying anything at all, shit was fucked. So when we got told that somebody was blockading the Bay, we first had to ask for confirmation, because shit was so bad. Just to illustrate my point, a few moments before that, we got a message claiming that Kaiser was agitating the rioters. He wasn't, but that should just show you how bad it was. Now, with the city on fucking fire, it took a whole while to reach someone and tell them to check out the fucking Bay. They in turn needed a longass time to actually get somewhere where they could actually overlook the port, and then some more time to report back. By the time we actually had confirmation what those fuckers were doing, the crazy assholes were already scuttling the fucking tankers.
So yeah, I feel really sick for doing this, but the government for once was not responsible for that fuck up.
►SirSailsAlot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Alright so I've been mostly unaware of Brockton's history until this thread but this Piggot woman? How long has she been Director. Like from all the shit the city's been through before the March and Bakuda incident, did Piggot somehow keep the PRT from falling apart through that? And if so, how did she fuck this situation up so spectacularly? Like with the city still standing after a conflict between the Teeth and the S9, the Empire and Marquis escalating things and whatever the hell Lung's been doing after fighting an Endbringer to a standstill, there's no way Piggot's just been getting lucky. and if she wasn't in charge during this shit how did the person before her fuck up hard enough that she needed to replace them?
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@SirSailsAlot
Director Piggot became the Director almost exactly a decade ago, back in the late spring of 2001.
Ah, but you see, here's the issue: Piggot did dick to actually kick out the gangs and reduce crime. She just contained it, made sure it happened away from the rich folks homes and was generally kept quiet. It helped that the gangs themselves mostly kept it on the down low, to keep people from outside the Bay from noticing. Inside, we just dealt with the shit situation as best as we could, which wasn't all that well.
And once again you prove that you're not a Brocktonite. See, Piggot kept the 'peace' in the same way the US government prevented a race war after the Civil War in the South: she didn't. Just as the Klu Klux Klan was free to murder blacks who couldn't fight back, so too were the gangs allowed to persecute their reign of terror against the civilian populace.
Piggot maintained a facade of peace so the rich fuckers could sleep soundly at night, by sweeping all of the skeletons her policies resulted in under the rug. All that that fucking cunt March did was, was tear that rug from right under her self-righteous ass. All of the shit that had built up over the years spilled over in a single hour, the results of which speak for themselves.
Actually, a lot of these things occurred before Piggot became Director. Remember, Marquis, who kicked out the S9, the only good thing he ever did in his scummy life, was arrested in 2000. A year before she took office. So she never had to deal with a true crisis before.
After she took office, the gangs were happy to play her game. They got effectively free hand in their territories, so long as they didn't do anything too outrageous. Fucked over the poor, but who gives a shit, right?
Director Ludwig actually retired due to medical issues, if I remember correctly he suffered from a heart attack.
►Farslayyer
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@Camealot
Only complaint here is that the 'UH' definitely was not a hour. CF vs Lung was an hour-the bombing, attacks, and general chaotic mess was definitely longer. I hate to agree with Big Goverment, but yeah, calling it the Ungodly 'Hour' undersells things
.
.....I mean, the absolute farthest you can stretch the situation is....two weeks, maximum, but still!
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Oh, I'm in full agreement with you here. We're still dealing with the aftermath of the situation. But all most people would focus on was the UH, which really showed the fissures underlying Brockton Bay's foundation. Guess I wasn't being clear enough.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
(Showing page 5 of 5)
►Farslayyer
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Ah yeah, sorry about the confusion there! It's a annoyingly common issue. Though, I guess you can't really blame people for fixating on the whole 'Apeiron vs Gigantic Fuck You Dragon' that much. Too much happening at the same time, I guess.
Speaking of the events surrounding that fight, since when has Brockton had a 'no help from villains' policy when regarding massive threats? I mean, Marquis basically did the Protectorates job for them that one time. Half of the reason that BB hadn't been set on fire before this was other villains taking out villains or self regulating. TBH, Ludwig was a indecisive dumbass, but he would have taken the warnings we got a bit more seriously. 'Ah yes, supplying one (1) set of knives to some random villians means you are insane and untrustworthy. Goodbye!'
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Don't sweat it, at least you were polite about it.
Why, since Director Piggot took over. What did you think?
►SirSailsAlot
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
To be fair I wouldn't be surprised if that was a common stance for other directors (not counting the S-class Truce, that's federal policy). The only difference is that other directors are never going to dealing with what Brockton classifies as a "massive threat" and any that are even close quickly rethink their priorities.
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Not really. You see, what you have to keep in mind is that villains are still people, shit people, but people nonetheless. And that means that they have friends and homes and shit. So when that gets threatened, they oftentimes help out. Best example I can think of was back in 2007, in Detroit, when that big fire broke out there, a small gang of villains, the Sled Gang, if I remember correctly helped out with rescue operations. The local PRT let them, because even though they are criminals, they were helping people in that moment. Now, just to make clear, the fire was entirely natural, not cape caused.
Something like that wouldn't happen in Brockton. This shithole is one of the worst places regarding hero/villain cooperation, in that they wouldn't piss on the other if they were on fire. So yeah, while Piggot certainly isn't unique in this regard, she is the exception rather than the rule.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
■
♦ Topic: Apeiron and Marquis
In: Boards ► America ► Brockton Bay
Point_Me_@_The_Sky (Original Poster) (New Wave)
Posted On Apr 29th 2011:
Hey all... So, the week's been a bit rough and I haven't really made any posts because of Family drama, but I'm back. Most likely. Anyway, I'm rambling, so here's my predicament.
Everyone knows Apeiron now, right? Enigmatic Artificer holds to his contracts to an almost religious degree, has tried to keep civilian casualties to a minimum in all of his fights?
So I came home a few days ago, before the Ungodly Hour to hear my mother rambling on about how much Apeiron and Marquis are alike, you know, with rigid sets of rules/codes of conduct, the fact that they are mostly polite, and it got me thinking, how alike are they.
Like Apeiron hasn't actually done any criminal stuff since his first recorded appearance, and I've heard that Tinkertech sale is dubious in a legal sense, same with healing my sister. He hasn't asked for protection money, he hasn't taken territory and he hasn't killed anyone on purpose other than Lung, but the PRT tells me even that's up in the air because of Lung's regeneration. That, and I don't even know if he was originally wanting to be a villain. When he talked to my sister, he said that he considered going to New Wave, but looking back, I doubt he'd consider it now.
And for all of Marquis' supposed honour, he wasn't above killing civilians if they didn't follow his rules or if they, you know, told him to fuck off and leave them alone.
Honestly, I can't see where my mom was coming from and I'd like to hear your opinions.
(Showing page 1 of 5)
►Sothoth
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
First off, let me be the first to say on PHO welcome back, and I hope you're doing okay there GG.
Second, what the hell? Besides being more of a Rogue Tinker than a villainous one, there is NO similarity between the two, as you have said. Marquis has his fiefdom, Apeiron seems to be more of someone who tried to help and gets rebuffed, leading to the fiasco we had today.
I, personally, didn't live through Marquis's era in BB, so I may be biased. Any counterarguments?
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Alright, I'm not all that well versed in the cape scene in Brockton Bay, not living there and all of that, but even for me a short wiki-crawl made it clear that there really is no comparison between the two.
Make no mistake, Marquis was a criminal. irregardless of his code of conduct, it doesn't matter if you murder someone because you want to steal his stuff or because he violated your personal sense of honor, murder is still murder. And looking at just how many people ended up in body-bags because of him, it's no wonder they put him in the Birdcage.
Meanwhile, the closest thing to a crime Apeiron has committed is selling those knives to the Undersiders, and at least according to a friend of mine, who has some experience in that field, depending on the exact details of that transaction, he could easily be cleared of any wrongdoing.
Similarly, Marquis had a 'territory', as ill-defined as it was, meanwhile Apeiron has made no claims to any part of the town, or even has an area he frequents more often than others. Based on this document where someone has compiled a summit between the various underground elements of the city, Apeiron never even mentioned the slightest interest in owning territory, even declining any claim regarding the ABB's former holdings.
So all that leaves is 'polite behavior' and 'rigid code of conduct' which are traits a lot of people, even those who aren't capes, exhibit. So yeah, I really don't see the similarities.
►EverydayMan
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Well, that's a loaded question, and probably not for the reasons you think. Opinions on Marquis tend to be fairly... diverse around Brockton, depending on who you talk to, so I'll do my best to provide some impartial insight.
First of all, before anything else, Marquis was a villain. He had a body count, and he had no qualms about hurting people to get what he wants. Let's put that out there now. There's a reason why his organization was able to stand against Allfather's Empire back in the day, despite outnumbered on capes (to my knowledge, Marquis didn't have any capes in his group besides himself.) And it was due to his willingness to do ruthless things that would make the Empire blink in hesitation.
That being said, as you mentioned, he held to certain... codes is too strong of a word. And honestly, I can't say how accurate it really is because even after he went away a lot of people who had worked for him wouldn't sell him out. He didn't attack women and children. He had his men treat rapists or dealers trying to sell to kids caught his territory... harshly, to say the least (not that I can disagree). Whether those are the rose-tinted rumors or not, I can't say (PHO wasn't what it is now, back then, so we didn't have access to guys in the know like @ Bagrat). But what I can remember is that when Marquis and his group were driven to violence, it was kept contained to their targets.
Nothing like the current crop of E88 or even Lung's rampages before the UG. Hell, Lung used to go off and we'd lose blocks to damage or fires. Empire shitheads often cause as much damage as possible, so long as they're not downtown. The Merchants do whatever the hell they want, often tearing up the streets due to Squealer-mobiles destroying pavement and asphalt or just clipping buildings because the crazy bitch tried to take a corner too sharply.
I think some of those who maintain those Rose-tinted goggles of the man remember that more than anything else - the fact that if a cape showdown he was involved in began, that it wouldn't spread to where they were and they'd at least be safe. It's a selfish view of things, but one that you can't ignore. Nothing like the capes we have today (present company excluded, of course.) If anything, Marquis likely reminded people of the old Mafiosos rather than a traditional cape gang. Yes, they were criminals, but they had a veneer of respectability, and often shared that respect even to their enemies unless crossed. Quite frankly if even half the rumors are correct, Marquis (without powers) would have fit in well with the old Mafia down in New York back in the age of the mob.
As to the comparison to Apeiron... I think it's an odd comparison, and mostly just because despite all the commotion he's caused, we really haven't seen enough of Apeiron to really draw a conclusion one way or the other. People want to blame him for the UG, but anyone with a lick of sense knows that is BS of the highest-order. I'm not advocating for him - I don't know enough to, and the man himself seems to have no interest in talking, despite how much camera posing he seems to do - but it's clear the blame for the recent insanity is with the ABB. But outside of the initial sale of a set of knives (even if they were crazy super-knives) to the Undersiders... has he actually 'done' anything illegal yet, or at least anything that wouldn't be tolerated by a vigilante or independent hero?
I don't know. Maybe he's just has the reputation, but Apeiron doing any of the kind of stuff that Marquis used to do, or even the E88 or ABB.... just seems beneath him.
►ExStellar8
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Kinda feels like Brandish is equating apples and oranges there doesn't it? Monkey Steel may not be held in the greatest official standing with the legal cape scene, and sticks to his contract code of conduct like superglue, but aside from those correlations, it's essentially comparing a hacker to a mob boss.
No to... bring up or belabor a sore subject, but Brandish may be feeling pretty bitter that Aperion's Thinker power insights ended up exposing her infidelities, and conflating him with Marquis, New Wave's arch nemesis back when they were the Brockton Bay Brigade, lets her justify her way into seeing him as the root cause of all her problems.
►
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Territory wise i understand why apeirons not so interested in it. He could probably claim the whole city if he really tried. He's obviously got the resources he needs, if he didnt we might be dealing with territorial behavior. What he'd do in the turf is up for debate.
Marquis was like a mafia don, Apeiron's more like a corporate overlord
terrifying, you dont actually know much about him, and he probably has too much power for anyones good, but probably not going to murder you unless you really piss him off. More interested in the returns from his real estate than selling drugs and breaking kneecaps
Code of conduct wise, marquis was just not women and kids and everywhere else he was a shitty person. Apeiron is a far messier situation, like, we know he isnt up for mass murder of civilians and thats obviously a plus, but like, not saying much. rumor is that he refused a contract with the butcher, which is also sick, but also not saying much. he's not on the far end of Evil, but neither was Marquis.
His ethics are obviously questionable tho, it might just be a power dynamics thing. hes so far out of Marquise league that he wouldnt bother with the whole gang stuff even if he wanted too
What a nice start to this thread tho, before it devolves into violence!
►Fafnoire
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
While everyone seems to agree that Marquis and Apeiron being quite I have to wonder how they'd see the other if they were both operating in Brockton.
I might not know much about Marquis but his devotion to his set of rules is famous. I imagine there'd be a certain amount of respect afforded to Apeiron for his own devotion to a self imposed(?) code. Though that would have to depend on how Bakuda and March fit into his code. He might abhors their mutilation as they're both women (though scum would probably be a better descriptor). Then again he killed Iron Rain so how much he might bend his code based on the situation couldn't be said.
On Apeiron it's even harder to say. Considering the Empire and the Merchants are still here it's unlikely he can get rid of the gangs without the S-class alarms ringing off the hook. I imagine Apeiron would leave Marquis alone to prevent others from coming into places he can't defend who might be worse (devil you know vs devil you don't after all).
Any holding actions between the two would of course only last until their rules conflicted, but Marquis would still probably outlast the other gangs from his time.
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@EverydayMan
Huh, that's actually an angle I hadn't considered. Probably becuse I don't live there. But yeah, that would explain why some people fondly remember the man.
Considering what you have just revealed, I'm surprised just how reasonable and neutral your response was. So no issues there.
@Yamm0
That's rather insightful of you. And I have to admit, imagining Apeiron as an CEO is quite an amusing image. Congratulation my good sir, I'm pretty sure you've just created a meme.
►Meme-Masted
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Challenge accepted. Although I'm sure the image of Survey dressed up as a secretary will cause quite a few jaws to drop.
►NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
BULLSHIT THEY ARE ALIKE. Your mother was the one who took the bony bastard down, how THE FUCK she can say they anything alike?! I dont remember Marquis risking his life to remove tinkertech bombs from peoples' heads. I dont remember him going on streets and fighting various dipshits to protect citizens. I dont remember him being any help to general public and I certainly cant remember him saving the city.
Marquis, for all his oh so holy code of honor, was murdering people left and right whenever he felt like it. I dont think Apeiron even tried to kill someone. Aside from ABB cape assholes and their nerd allies, but that doesnt count, anyone would've tried to murder those after seeing shit Bakuda was pulling off (I know how mad bitch evaded her Kill Order, but what the fuck PRT, how in the world Lung, Oni Lee, March, Uber and Leet didnt got one?!)
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 2 of 5)
►Gumayusi
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I can see where your mother was coming from - bitterness and delusion.
To equate a ruthless villain with a person who in his first appearance healed your daughter, on second saved hundreds of conscripted victims, on third - all but destroyed ABB economically, leaving it as anything but a bunch of stupid gangers and capes and finally - on fourth saved the whole DAMNED CITY! You need to be either an idiotic PRT director or woman unable to accept that when her family ruined as a result of her adultery coming in the clear, the one to blame is not a person who uncovered her cheating, but the adulteress herself. That is to say - your mother.
►Judge (Moderator)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@NeoTheMatrixSpambot Watch your language. The sentiment is understandable, but tone it down a bit.
►
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Quick question: Why the fuck would we trust Brandish of all people about Apeiron? Like, there are only a handful of options that are worse. Mostly Piggot.
NW is fucked over but TBH....that's kinda entirely on them unless hes actually way older than we all thought and is a precog. No offense GG but thats all yalls shit, not Apeirons fault. I mean, he shouldnt have dropped it randomly like that, especially if he expected the bombing spree, but he was working with TT
►Camealot
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Excuse me, but is your mother on fucking drugs? Apeiron and Marquis, a-fucking-like? Really? Like, fucking seriously?
What kind of bullshit is that!? Marquis was a fucking butcher who murdered people for fucking laughs and somehow got some idiots to buy into the fact that that he had 'standards', which somehow justified his fucking murders, made him any less of a piece of shit than he was.
Compared to that, where's Apeiron's bodycount? Funny thing, I can't seem to fucking find it. But it certainly isn't around 80 or so.
What are we supposed to blame him for? The fuck-ups of Piggot and co.? That he defended himself against the ABB? That he sold some knives to some idiot wannabe robbers? Yeah, he did that last thing, and I want him in court for that shit, because what the fuck was he thinking. But really? Apeiron similar to fucking Marquis? Don't make me fucking laugh.
►EverydayMan
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Thanks DapperGator. I know Marquis is a touchy subject around the bay (as a few posts have already shown), so I'm trying to not let my personal feelings affect my answer to the kid's question.
And while I'm not a mod and wouldn't presume to have the ability or patience for it, let's try not to insult the kid's mom when she's just trying to understand why her mom might think this.
►TeaPot (Moderator)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@Camealot Swearing is allowed but you seriously need to cool it. This thread is being watched folks, keep it civil, otherwise it's the infractions hammer for you. Take a step back before posting please, and remember to not harass the child.
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
You're quite welcome, and yeah, we should really stop insulting Brandish. In spite of her indiscretions, which have recently been revealed, she still has rights and insulting her while she's not even here is just low.
►BadassTeen
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
You mother right, and it's infuriating to me that no one sees it!
Seriously, people, what's wrong with you all?! How are you forgetting that Mammon's knifes were the thing that injured Wards on live television! You say: "he's not a butcher - like Marques was"! Try saying it to Aegis and Gallant. Oh, you can't! Because they're not around anymore!
Brandish have all right to call Mammon a villain as bad as Marquis was. That monster first used his no-less villainous girlfriend to harm her daughter, then attacked her himself, in a fucking hospital, not even allowing her to help wards injured by his good-for-nothing friends! And after that, he used his thinker powers to destroy New Wave from inside and mastered Amy so that she couldn't help real heroes when they were needed, and he could pretend to save the city! From a disaster he had his hand in creating!
Mammon is a villain through and through, and the fact that most people can't see it behind all the posturing is just stupid!
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@BadassTeen
You do realize that Gallant and Aegis are still alive, right? Just transferred. For the latter there were even articles about his heroic actions in Boston.
You do realize that there is no proof, let alone logic behind those claims. If Apeiron had actually physically harmed Apeiron he'd already be on the national list for villains (link here), because assault is illegal. Similarly, based on everything we know, all that he did was hint that there may have been indiscretions in the family, which appears to have been true.
Lastly, he didn't pretend to save the city, he actually did or are you claiming that it wasn't him who kicked Lung into the curb?
►Yamm0
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Calling the Panacea Tape a 'attack' is more than a bit unfair. it was a shitty conversation at a horrible time, but nothing outright violent. The whole mess sucked and it was kinda shitty of apeiron to do that but the mess that made the shit in question wasn't his questionable conduct, but not outright bad or evil
Also did you really do the 'apeiron is a MaStEr' meme? I thought we all got tired of that ages ago lol.
Apeiron is 100% questionable and should be treated with caution but he's not a trigger happy murderer who likes kicking puppies for fun. He might be definitely unstable, and very scary, but treating him like that will probably make it worse. Also Apeiron hates masters by his own admission
realistically also our only choice is to be nice tho. its just our only bit of good luck that keeps apeiron being only 'kinda a dick sometimes' instead of 'crazy mass murderer'
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 3 of 5)
►IllogicalFallacy
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Think about it this way, imagine one of them calls you up and wants to make a deal.
If it's Marquis, this is a bad thing.
He was a crime lord and any deal he makes is almost certainly meant to advance his criminal agenda.
You probably don't have an option to refuse.
If it's Aperion, then it might be a good thing.
He has a lot of options for bribery so he's less likely to threaten for cooperation, and he has more benign activities.
Maybe he wants help removing bombs or creating a movie to beam into people's brains?
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
That's probably the best illustration of the differences between the two that I've ever seen. Sure, Apeiron may be bad, but Marquis is definitively bad.
►Secent
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I can see why a lot of people are freaked out by the two.
On one hand, Marquis was the known bad. Like, definitely bad but the bad you could understand. Kill some people, do some drug selling, blah blah blah well being occasionally helpful.
On the other, Apeiron is the unknown bad. Sure, he's made a point he wants some stability, but thats after the UH. What about when (if) things calm down? Will he be fine just outfitting one gang? Want to contact the Protectorate? What are his ethics regarding contracts? His experiments? What a damage can he do? What happens if (x)? What wont happen if (x)? Can we do anything about him?
A sheet full of question marks is a very frightening thing indeed. Not the same, but the dread of living near his active sites (if there is anything left) is sort of similar. Probably a lot worse in most cases, but well...
Apeiron might be the more unstable of the two, but his obsessiveness with contracts seems to be a counterbalance. Hopefully.
Anyways the biggest thing they had in common was they fucked up NW when they encountered it, Marquis for whatever reason, and Apeiron with the Panacea thing, for unknown reasons. Probably just shit planning though. Powerful Thinkers and tinkers tend to be high INT and low CHA/WIS, just look at Armsmaster
►zZz_Abyss_Ninja_ZzZ
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Behind all this moral measuring shit yo all missed real interesting thingy.
Monke wanted to join New Wave!
How it would even work yo ask. I thought they were only family business yo say. I know how! Apeiron wanted to marry one of the members! And when somthing hapen, and marriage was canceled - Apriron gone apeshit and decied to take revenge on New Wave by dstroying the family. That all make sanse!
Only qustion, who was de bride? "Laserdream"? Don't be sily! How would it even be callrd? Limitless dream? Ha! Actually, sounde prety good. Yeha, de bride wasas lazerdream. Picees fittt togther like a giod puzle.
►Riddon
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@ zZz_Abyss_Ninja_ZzZ
Do you need a ride from whatever bar you're in?
►Lethe (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge) (Verified Pain in the Ass)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Laserdream and the boss? I ship it. He needs to get out of the lab more often as it is.
►Point_Me_@_The_Sky (Original Poster) (New Wave)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@ Lethe, I genuinely don't know how to respond to that. Like, seriously, I have no idea. I mean, Laserdream did meet him once, after his fight with Uber and Leet, and she shot at him. I'm just not going to talk about this topic anymore, maybe I'll go get my cousin's opinion, but be warned, she'll probably not think highly of it.
Anyway, @IllogicalFallacy, that's probably one of the best ways I think anyone could've explained it. And yeah, TBH, I do think my mother is wrong about Apeiron being the same as Marquis, I also wanted more opinions. From what Amy, both my Cousins and Weld have said, Apeiron is actually a nice guy when you're speaking to him. At least, he doesn't coat every word in some veiled threat like some villains do.
@BadassTeen, I feel like that might be a bit heavy-handed. Apeiron hasn't actually killed anyone yet. At least not directly.
Edit: And about my mother being salty about her marriage, that's entirely on her. And Uncle Neil. But no, New Wave was like a ticking time bomb, this stuff was going to come out eventually. It wasn't the best time to come out, but I think it also could've been worse.
►DandyWingman
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
>has he actually 'done' anything illegal yet, or at least anything that wouldn't be tolerated by a vigilante or independent hero?
Read: 'Apeiron'. That thing is a violation of sanctity of mind! Some might think that inserting couple words into our heads isn't an issue, but it actually is, or would have been if anyone else was in Apeiron's place.
Apeiron, or at least his huge robot caused a massive amount of collateral during his battle with Lung, many would argue that he should have retreated instead of fighting Lung. Apeiron is legally responsible for at least some of that damage.
Also weapon that Apeiron deployed against Lung might be illegal to possess. Tinkertech laws are murky, but it would be illegal for conventional weapons of that yield.
His robot caused a lot of collateral during his first fight against Bakuda, and the man himself later slashed more to the pile. In my mind, what he did for Bakuda's victims offsets that, and I don't care all that much for old containers when lives were on the line, but a court is likely to say 'excessive force'.
Selling knives to teenagers is illegal! Tinkertech or not tinkertech. On the other hand it might not even count as a sale.
Healing without consent is illegal, and I doubt Panacea would have agreed to be healed in this case (unknown, untested tech at a minimum!), but I also doubt that the sweet girl will pursue any charges, especially not against a fellow healer (and not like those will change anything).
From my point of view Apeiron would be tolerated by 'a vigilante or independent hero', but not in a way you meant. Instead of 'eh, can't cook omelette without breaking some eggs', it will be 'that monster is not a villain and I would rather take that and stay alive.'
P.S. Also the way Apeiron's got into the hospital to heal Panacea might have been illegal.
►Submariner (Verified Anti-Shipper)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Marquis deserves some credit. He's the reason that none of the gangs have attacked the hospitals or bus-lines. The way the story goes, when Bone-man came to town, he made it clear the other gangs in town (Empire, and the various gangs that Lung eventually corralled into the ABB) that the hospitals were off-limits. Rumor is that some cape tried to rob one for drugs and the guy was found the next day impaled to a warehouse with bone spikes, with all the stolen drugs sorted and identified in neat handwriting.
Apparently, the criminals in town at the time took notice, and that's the reasons why none of the freaks in this town ever fucked with Brockton General.
Supposedly something happened with the bus-lines as well, and he had to step in to make an example out of some scumbag. But according to the rumor mill in the city, ever since then there's been an official 'Do not fuck with hospitals or the bus-lines' policy from the various scumbags in our city. Even long after Bone man up and got sent to the cage. Considering the kinds of assholes we had running around back then, I can't see anyone else pulling that off.
And let's not forget that he's a big reason the Teeth and S9 left Brockton all those years ago. Any man who steps up to that fucker Jack and tells him to fucking run and actually gets him to do so deserves a round of fucking applause.
@DandyWingman
Dude... how long have you lived in the bay? It wouldn't surprise me if half the brats in my kid's daycare were packing weapons.
►577Tonitee
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Y'all, Marquis was a crime lord but at least he was relatively stable. I dont really give much of a shit if Apeiron spends his day giving kindergartners unicorn rides and shooting rainbows and sparkles out of his ass, if theres any chance he's gonna go buttfuck crazy and aim that kind of shit at the heros, i'm firmly in the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA camp, if I do say so myself.
At least with Marquis, you understand what the fucks actually killing you. God forbid Apeiron feed you to his hell-weasel teammate/experiment. Yeah, boneboy over insane tinker anyday. The whole 'not having superweapons' is a point in bonedudes favor, fundamentally.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 4 of 5)
►CourtedByCrimson
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Your mom is right by accident. Both of them are unfairly maligned heroes who work to make the city safer by dealing with trash like rapists and sleazebags who addict kids. The big difference is Apeiron is strong enough that he can afford to show mercy because he has a big team backing him up, while Marquis was working on his own, so he had to be harsh to send a message.
►Yamm0
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Look buddy be glad for marquis all you want personally, but hero is a massive exaggeration.Tthe whole 'murder and drugs' thing is kind of a...well..not hero thing to do.
Marquis was a crime lord with some basic standards. Seriously, a villain isn't cartoonishly bad and people start defending them like it's their job.
'Harsh to send a message' is not murdering people. Apeiron fought against villains who wanted to destroy the literal city. Most of marquis' kill count does not fall in that category. Marquis had a interest in keeping his turf safe, and a basic moral code. Period.
►Unfiltered_Imagination
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Apeiron? Marquis, not even fucking close, Apeiron takes it by miles. If he had started anywhere else in the U.S. we wouldn't be having this conversation but Brockton Bay's so damn corrupted by incompetence and taking the worst thing imaginable to be the possible first value. God my city is so fucked up...
Marquis had a cool motive, had a neat set of rules, still murder. He was black that sometimes lapsed into grey, Aperion is varying shades of grey and white.
►NeoTheMatrixSpamBot
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@DandyWingman OH ITS ON.
1. I sincerely doubt that it violates anything. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it scans your mind to find which porn you watched today? Yeah, no. You would think someone of Apeiron's caliber would be able to mass read mind without notice. That, and telepaths aren't real. Even Winged Bitch iirc dont qualifies to that
2. Ah, yes, letting Lung (and Oni Lee by the way) get away scott free with March would've been MUCH better decision. By any chance, are you ABB loyal? Sure talk like one.
3. I am dying laughing. Apeiron isnt recognized as villain AND he is not Protectorate hero. They can't restrict him and his tinkertech. ToyBox is a thing you know, and those guys have some serious tech that by all accounts shouldn't be allowed in anyone but PRT's hands yet here we are.
4. When you dealing with bomb tinker with unwilling suicide bombers running around, there is NO such thing as an excessive force. Note that Apeiron used relatively non-lethal weapon instead of making his bot shoot lighting or fire or freeze people solid. What is more important: a bunch of containers or people lives? By the looks of it, you choosing containers.
5. Tinkertech sales in REALLY gray zone so if court would decide is it violation of the law or not, they can swing both sides really.
6. Me, being half-unconscious and dying under debris: ... Panacea, not receiving my permission to heal: Well, I did all I could!. Fucking stupidest argument by far. This permission shit is PRT paranoia which, I might add, never led to anything good.
7. Me, walking into wrong door: Oh man, I am criminal now, guess I'll go to jail.
Get the hell out, ABB loyal or Marquis fanboy. I dont even know which is worse.
@CourtedByCrimson, he sure as hell taught lesson to those innocent civilians, yep.
This thread is a giant fucking joke. Marquis is villain asshole, who was mildly good at PR. Apeiron is a hero who at odds with PRT ENE (not even entire PRT, just local fucking brunch). End of the story. Anyone who claims anything else is either troll or delusional.
►All_I_Survey (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@ Lethe, Apeiron has requested you not 'stir the pot'. He already feels bad enough for all the trouble he has inadvertently caused New Wave. He says that if you continue, you will no longer be allowed any of Kataklyzein's milkshakes.
In regards to the data related to the criminal Marquis and the Celestial Forge, the only commonality is that both neither fit into the pre-determined slots of 'good' and 'evil'. Marquis committed a number of crimes (See Dossier 'Marquis', A0001-93), and as such, when caught was sentenced to the Bauman Correctional Facility. This does not change the fact that he was a stabilizing force in Brockton Bays for a number of years (See attached crime rate historical analysis BB-00281FA). It could also be argued that his removal is what allowed the Archer's Bridge Merchants, and what was known as the ABB to form into the groups they were later on. (Attached items A0047-15, A0048-43)
In contrast, the Celestial Forge's primary operational goal was the removal of Bakuda from Brockton Bay once Apeiron became aware of her. The initial contracts with the Undersiders were made in order to facilitate that design. This became complicated once March began conducting missions in the city, and as such, changes in tactics were required in order to accommodate. The ABB chose to escalate faster than anticipated, given their recruitment of subcontractors Leet and Uber (A0049-61), and Bakuda's 'conscription' victims (See Bomb Analysis PFA-39152 through PFA-39371).
The 'Ungodly Hour' as many refer to it, is the culmination of the attempts to counter the ABB's expanded threat range. People have attempted to blame Apeiron for March's actions, but Apeiron going out that night was chance, and it is highly improbable that March's operation would have been delayed if Apeiron had chosen to stay in with a movie instead. It is more probable that Bakuda and March's initial broadcast would have just been a taunt to draw Apeiron out into the open, while still attempting to destroy the city. The analysis of the coordinated detonations of Tinkertech explosives after Apeiron entered the battle at the container yard confirms this. (See Bomb Analysis TQR-0241 through TQR-0273 for more details.)
In terms of end results and starting reasons, from the data I have collected the two groups could not be more different. Marquis' actions were designed for his own well-being and comfort, and he inadvertently brought stability. Apeiron has rarely acted for himself, and inadvertently brought chaos. It is a logical and moral conundrum, in certain respects, and I think it would be fascinating to actually speak to Marquis about his actions for local historical purposes (Proposal: Personal Interviews with Parahumans within Brockton Bay for Historical Analysis.)
►Fafnoire
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Well at least we now have confirmation that Apeiron was a Cape before he appeared on the Brockton Cape Scene. For those wondering Panacea said he told her that he sold those knives to the Undersiders so that he could get funds to put up a fight against Bakuda. That "once Apeiron became aware of her" strongly implies the Celestial Forge had one or more objectives before their working relationship with the Undersiders
►RedHogColdTomato
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
This thread proves to be surprisingly deep well of analysis and insights.
It gave me a question, if Apeiron caused chaos "inadvertently" then why he called himself in the name of primordial Chaos? What did he expect, didn't he know a thing about names?
►UpDownSideWays
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Jeeze, a CF response?? Unexpected much!
(Though I guess that should be expected for the CF!)
@All_I_Survey
Hey, how prepared was Apeiron for that fight? I'd love to think it was the culmination of the previous week of planning, but if that enounter was purely by chance and Apeiron using what he had on hand at the time.....jesus fucking christ on a cross.
@Fafnoire
Perhaps it was just Apeiron, which was why he was attempting to aquire funds in the first place, rather than....whatever the hell he does now.
►Apeiron (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
As Survey said above, there are distinct differences between myself and Marquis. In my personal opinion, people who make the connection between myself and Marquis are looking at surface-level details and little else. That said, confirmation bias is definitely something some people may experience, as Glory Girl mentioned.
To begin, I would like to say that I grew up during the point of time when Marquis was still active, in Brockton Bay. I know what he did and how brutal he was in his actions. Believe me, I do.
Marquis was a powerful cape, controlling most of the area the ABB came to inherit, who regularly clashed with both the Empire and the Protectorate, as well as smaller, unaffiliated Cape Gangs. He himself held to an ethical code, though I will say how strictly he held to it was debatable. He was also, strictly, a villain, who acted solely for self-benefit, and any cape convention he may have put in place was purely for his benefit, stability being most likely a byproduct.
Comparing Marquis to myself, I find many faulty assumptions that are made in regard to any similarities we may have. Marquis mainly did what we might consider a good act solely for his own benefit, and at the end of the day, was still a villain. Crossing him would lead to your death, and even with what happened during the Ungodly Hour, I still tried to keep casualties to a minimum. Regarding Lung's death, even that was mainly undertaken by Fleet, with help from the rest of The Celestial Forge. I mostly lined the shot up as to not affect the city in a too major way
@UpDownSideWays
During the Ungodly Hour, I went out with most of my currently available loadout. I hadn't expected it to get as bad as it did, especially towards the end, so there were still some things I was reluctant to bring out. The first deployments of Proto Amia, Matrix and Lethe were events that I would have liked to avoid until a more peaceful time, but they happened nonetheless.
Lethe, as Survey said, I understand what you're doing, and I ask you to please not fan the flames on that particular issue. Khepeiron was enough of an issue for me to deal with and I can almost guarantee you that Laserdream hates my guts. And I do get out of the lab, just not for dates. It's not like I am a shut-in.
►Fafnoire
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@UpDownSideWays
That is absolutely possible however if that were the case, why why differentiate between the Celestial Forge and Apeiron? The topic of conversation was solely Apeiron vs Marquis so just saying "Apeirons primary objective" would have been more fitting. I might be reading something that isn't there but if Ms Survey is detailed enough to bring up incidents with specific case numbers I don't see her dragging the rest of the Celestial Forge into this by accident.
EDIT: oh my god he's here. What do we do? Do we pretend he's not here? Do we panic? I'm on board with that last one.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
(Showing page 5 of 5)
►Apeiron (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@Fafnoire
Preferably, just have a calm, collected conversation like the semi-rational humans I know we all are. Panic is usually not good for having any productive discussions about any topic.
►Mrgreenpant
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I am a little terrified by the possible answer but the curiosity is too strong, what was the equipment, teammate or others that you did not want to deploy during the UH (other than Proto Amia, Matrix and Lethe) ?
►Mobile Oppression Device (Moderator)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
This isn't the place to discuss the details of the Ungodly Hour or the Celestial Forge's actions. Let's also not derail this into a technical discussion (as much I also want to know these things...) It hasn't happened to a significant degree, but we are watching...
If you want to discuss the Ungodly Hour, see this thread
If you want to discuss the Celestial Forge or the capes involved, see the following threads Apeiron, Celestial Forge, Fleet, Survey, Proto Aima, The Matrix.
Technical Discussions regarding confirmed Apeiron/CF technologies can be found here, here, here, and here.
For historical context regarding Marquis: See this thread.
For historical context regarding New Wave: See this thread, this one, and this one.
►Apeiron (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
As I have stated to the PRT and the Protectorate, I will not be taking questions regarding specifics of capabilities, both in regards to abilities or equipment, of either myself or my teammates. As the moderator above has stated, there are many threads in which to discuss these topics. Survey might open up a thread later for people to submit questions.
Either way, let us return back to Glory Girl's question, as I would also like to hear a response from the public of Brockton Bay.
►Iron_Angel
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
All Hail the God of Technology may he guide us to a never ending Golden Age of Technology!
►VerifiedCape (Verified Cape)
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I think you're all missing an important point of commonality between Marquis and Apeiron. Being the only cape in town to face down the Butcher and make them blink.
Not that that's a good thing per se. The last time the Butcher felt like they couldn't hold territory in Brockton they got help from someone we try not to mention on PHO. Maybe they wont be that stupid this time?
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
■
[Written with the help of CorEagle's "PHO Blacksmithery - Brockton's Celestial Forge"(PHO Blacksmithery - Brockton's Celestial Forge) and the users who frequent the thread.]
Edit: Fixed the timing and usernames that didn't show up for some reason. Thanks for pointing that out!
@LordRoustabout please threadmark this
Last edited:
PHO - Case 68, 69, and Passenger Theory, Changes and Add-ons! (Martian_Tech)
■
Welcome to the Parahumans Online message boards.
You are currently logged in, Wise_Archer
You are viewing:
• Threads you have replied to
• AND Threads that have new replies
• OR private message conversations with new replies
• Thread OP is displayed.
• Ten posts per page
• Last ten messages in private message history.
• Threads and private messages are ordered chronologically.
■
♦ Topic: Case 68, 69, and Passenger Theory
In: Boards ► Cape News ► Parahuman Study
Bagrat (Original Poster) (Veteran Member) (The Guy in the Know)
Posted On Apr 27th 2011:
As some of you may already know, at around 1:20 pm (PDT), on the 26th, an information leak occurred, releasing multiple classified files from the PRT to news stations, news sites, universities, and indeed, here on PHO (link to thread found here. The thread has been locked from replies, but can now be viewed again). The files themselves contained details on the latest aberrant Parahuman related phenomena, Cases 68 and 69.
The complete details can be read here, and here respectively, but to summarize:
Case 68 refers to the phenomena of a dimensional breach that connects to what is currently being called "Passenger Space". Testimony from Triumph and Glory Girl both confirm that these breaches allowed them to see and, in the latter case, communicate with the source of their powers.
This, in turn, has acted as confirmation to the once thought defunct "Passenger Theory". Details can be found here. Tl;dr Passenger Theory posited that all Parahuman powers come from symbiotic organisms that bond with humans through their Corona Polentia, and later, Gema.
The earliest confirmed occurrence of this, known to authorities, resulted from the destruction of Apeiron's bike around the same time as his battle with Lung. It is theorized, however, that the similar distruction of his earlier bike during the fight against the ABB on April 16th also resulted in a C68 portal being opened, but at a smaller scale.
Case 69 refers to Parahumans who have been exposed to a C68 portal breach, and subsequently had their powers altered.
According to both Triumph and Glory Girl (confirmed later after much testing), seeing their Passengers seems to have altered their powers somewhat, giving them extra abilities that they didn't have before (Comparisons to Case 16, or "Second Triggers" found here).
Glory Girl also added that she's still able to sense a rudimentary form of communication from her Passenger. Further details on said power alterations for both Triumph and Glory Girl can be found here, and here.
Current confirmed Case 69s: Triumph (Protectorate ENE) and Glory Girl (New Wave).
Highly suspected Case 69s: All of the Celestial Forge.
Possible Case 69s: Lady Khepri, Grue, Tattletale, Regent and Hellhound (Undersiders), as well as Uber, Leet, and Bakuda (ABB members and affiliates).
With that out of the way, let's get some things clear here. This thread is about discussing what we have learned about Parahumans from these files, as well as what this could mean for Cape culture, now and in the future.
This is not a thread to post memes about Case 69s. We are already ahead of you, here's the Case 69 meme thread. Keep those things there, I have already asked this matter to be mod enforced, because I know a lot of you won't be able to help yourselves otherwise.
(Showing page 1 of 4)
►WiseAss
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
This makes sense doesn't it? Parahuman abilities should require a lot of energy to function and I doubt Alexandria can punch that hard because she eats a mountain of food. That energy has to come from somewhere other than the cape themselves and now we know why. It also explains how Tinkers can make super-tech despite not really knowing how it works. The passenger acts as the CPU and the battery while the cape is the I/O system. Now if we could figure out where passengers get all that energy themselves, we'll be set.
►WordPlayer
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
To summarize, Passengers look into our dimension and interact with Parahumans.
When Parahumans reciprocate, things happen.
Sounds like 69'ing to me.
►RandomMinion
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Ah, time for the usual then!
5 minutes of staring blankly in awe, 6 laughing, 15 minutes of screaming and or crying, and Forever of not sleeping.
Jokes about totally understandable terror aside....
Breaking down the possible C69s (nice):
-Apeiron: Everything he does. Hell, making C69s(nice) is almost definitely his specialty. Power Tinkering but with a dimensional flair to it, a uniquely horrifying brand of terror. As expected, how could you expect less?
-CF: Little to no data, but probably as stupid strong. Apeiron trusts these guys, and is apparently pretty damn generous with his '''normal''' tech for them anyways. I doubt he'd leave them hanging.
-The Undersiders: We haven't seen much of them since their run in with Bakuda, but they've still been active. From the bits of info we've gained, no new power expressions. As far as we know.
-Lady Khepri:...gets her own damn category. She's been out 3 times now, and rumor has it that she has some kind of breaker/changer/whatever abilities. Whatever classification that lets you turn into horrifying bugs. Present from Apeiron? Probably.
-Uber/l33T/Bakuda: This one would definitely be from secondhand exposure, since Apeiron would probably rather murderize them in lots of fun and interesting ways versus letting them have extra powers/tech. They've both been exposed to his broken tech. That sort of throws the source of L33t's new competence into question. Also, might be a reason why Apeiron was so freaked out by Bakuda? Was she exposed to his tech earlier than the rest?? Or did the exposure happen later and this is just her 'boosted' abilities?
►WiseAss
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Some you forgot:
-March: Highly likely she's one herself and has been for a while.
-Oni Lee: Was observed to be significantly faster and far more powerful. Possible.
-Lung: Reached the size of Behemoth in mere minutes. Something that has NEVER been seen before. Almost certainly.
►DriveBySpeculator
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
"Aperion" means something like "that which is boundless" or infinite, or limitless.
When he first announced it people thought it was pretentious.
When he really started pulling out the stops, people thought it was describing his tinker tech.
Now I'm wondering if it was just a direct reference to his real power.
If he started out by opening a portal and mucking around with powers, then "Aperion" is hilariously on the nose.
Also, Survey?
what is she surveying?
If it's powerspace, then that might explain how she can have a diagram of other people's powers in action.
►uuu770
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
right, so is the ape and friends gonna get pissy that the heros accidentally 'stole' his tech or? and how many people are gonna be bothering him to get power boosts? on one hand he could be very very annoyed. on the other hand, we would all be very very fucked. i mean we would be fucked both options but you get me.
@WiseAss
also, arent all three of those guys pretty dead? n for march, like maybe for all of ten seconds in the UH. didnt do her much good tho LOL. otherwise apeiron would have been active for ages b4
►Wise_Archer
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
I'm pretty sure Bagrat's list is based off of the actual files. It's at the very end, and kind of a footnote for something so important, but it's there.
That, said, I do agree that March probably was a Case 69 before we even knew about it. Possibly before Apeiron knew about it. This really recontextualizes what she was talking about after Oni Lee and her injured Apeiron.
Makes sense too, since her power seems to be some kind of super strong, breaching effect. Who's to say she didn't end up with some weird power interaction in the past that let her open a temporary rift to Passenger space?
Kinda ironic though, if this is how Apeiron is so strong. March kept going on about how he probably didn't know what he found, when in truth, she was the one who only scratched the surface.
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
That's honestly a rather reasonable take on the whole matter. However, I would caution you to remain skeptical. We had somebody proudly proclaim their theory regarding Apeiron and his power so many times I lost count, and each and every time they were forced to eat crow when his next appearance invalidated it.
►Moist_One (Verified Cape) (Kyushu Survivor)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
So... the Fairy Queen wasn't actually bonkers? Cas I always thought it was a bit suspect how heavily the "they're just imitations" regarding her "ghosts" was pushed.
Is that what it actually is? The fairies instead of the capes themselves?
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
(Showing page 2 of 4)
►Yamm0
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
so. ignoring the specifics of passenger theory and all of that shit for no because holy fuckballs, are we assuming pspace can be accessed/has been accessed before by non-Apeiron entities?
on one hand, no proof it cant be and dimensional and weird trumpy tech existed before him. on the other hand, if it had been, it would have been kept ridiculously subtle and secret. not much of a difficulty compared to the cf but still, having anyone aside from the tinker whos specialized to do the dimension stuff seems like a bad idea. maybe it didnt end well?
it could be possible, but Apeiron is out of almost everyones league. maybe Hero could have matched him and or figured this out too but i wouldnt bet on any other cape being able to make c69s without fucking up horribly. at least not with this direct method.
►Wise_Archer
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Well, maybe not as crazy as people thought she was. But I'd argue the Fairy Queen is still some special kind of nutcase, it's just that now, we can say that it probably had nothing to do with the whole 'Fairy' thing.
►EvilToaster
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
She might be crazy but not in the way you think. I think she just can't interpret what in the world she can see or feel or whatever and thats why she sounds like she is bonkers.
We are no strangers to dead capes living on after death. Butcher is right here in BB after all. This is a walking proof that FQ fairies might actually be dead capes trapped forever in her servitude. Horrible fate if you ask me.
►SapphicForSapphires (Cape Wife)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Once Glory Girl is old enough to start going around being a guest lecturer at various universities regarding her firsthand experience with Passenger Theory, I'm sure my wife and I would love to discuss Case 69 with her. I'm given to understand she's taking a lot of parahuman studies college courses, and her unique perspective is bound to stand her academic career in good stead.
►Vhallderan
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@Wise_Archer
So, March gets access to all the power in the world and makes her thinker/striker powers a bit stronger, and Apeiron uses it to become All The Threat Ratings?
So, March can boost powers well Apeiron modifies them...probably makes sense considering that would be his specialty
Also sorta makes sense if March had been working off some weaker link. Dunno how the hell she got her hands on someone with that power, nor how she fit it in her schedual of making eyes at Flechette and plotting to destroy the planet or whatever she did, but hey. Not like anything makes sense anymore.
►Precision_German_Engineering
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@SapphicForSapphires
I... honestly cannot tell if this is genuine, or an innuendo, and your name does not help.
Moving on. This whole thing does kind of explain the oddity about Apeiron's first few days as a Cape. I always found it odd why he needed to make a deal with the Undersiders when he could build things so quickly, using resources from seemingly nowhere.
If those come from alterations made from to communicating with his Passenger though, the pieces start falling into place. He didn't use any of those initial resources to build the tech he takes on the field. He used them to make first contact with his Passenger.
►Yamm0
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
rereading GG's 'conversation' with her passenger its mostly vaguely described feelings. how sentient/sapeint are they? is Apeiron listening to an actual voice in his head, or just following emotional hunches about his tech?
wonder if he can talk with other peoples powers. maybe even better than the capes themselves. there are a lot of capes with out of control powers who could use the help if he could convince their passengers to stop...whatever the fuck they do.
►Sectimsempra
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@yamm0 what's to say that isn't how case 53's happen? Passenger doesn't like/understand them and boom mutilated body so traumatic that you can't remember who you were. Or maybe another passenger doesn't like socialization and wipes them to discourage it.
►RobinOnBoardWalk (Unverified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Oh you have no idea how close you are.
Right actually contributing to the discussion. On the topic of how sentient/sapient passengers/patrons/fairies/agents whatever we can assign at least some level of intelligent action on them due to the Manton Limit phenomenon. Clear hard rules to prevent the powers from directly harming the user and to not work in arbitrary ways. That Glory Girl could interpret emotions and intent from her passenger and various forms of complex autonomous actions seen by other powers throughout the world. We can probably safely assume that passengers possess at least human levels of intelligence if in possibly an utterly alien form. Though another question that can be raised is do all passengers possess the same level of sentience or sapience?
Second thing to think about if gaining a better connection with one's passenger can lead to an increase in power/versatility/ease of use then what about gaining a bad connection to one's passenger? What would that result in I wonder. →_→ [Case Number 53]
*Edit*
Strangered
►DragonsRAwsome
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
I wonder what this means, If Apeiron is able to change powers, can he help Case 53's with theirs? I hope he can help them. some of them seem to have this... sadness in their eyes, or maybe I'm just projecting, but I'd want to not stick out like they do, if I were to wake up in a strange place looking even stranger, not knowing who I was.
I have to wonder, how many actual case 68's there have been... was that 'hell laser' thing a Case 68? i heard that a lot of capes cringed when that happened, and I'd bet all my (monopoly) money that it was a connection to 'P-space'.
Oh fuck. I just had a thought. If apeiron is able to 'tinker' with powers, what about weakening or breaking them? could he break the powers of the 9? what about the butcher? that was where my mind wander after thinking of 'could Apeiron imitate or duplicate powers?'
Crazy times people... I hope things settle down.
*Edit* I hope that we never have to see CF v 9 or CF v Teeth/Butcher stuff.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
(Showing page 3 of 4)
►RobinOnBoardWalk (Unverified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
From what I can piece together from various reports I could get my hands on (first and second hand, official and otherwise) Apeiron uses a stable self contained breach to passenger space to syphon energy from it to power his motoroid. Thus the various reactions from parahumans to energy leakage (damage, mass syphon in the case of Hell Laser, or in Case of 68 destabilization from an omnidimensional explosion being used on the breach directly) from said vehicle/power armor/robot.
►Precision_German_Engineering
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Alright, so had a second read at these reports, and I'd just like to point everyone's attention to the following:
"My Passenger seemed young in comparison. Really small, compared to the ones around it. It was made from pieces of mom's and uncle Neil's, with a little bit of Gallant's power thrown in."
That quote came straight from Glory Girl when she was asked to describe her Passenger.
Now, I'm not going to comment on anything related to New Wave's... family issues, but what this tells me is that (and I swear, I'm not saying this just to meme on people) the reason these Passengers make connections with people, creating Parahumans, might be for the purpose of procreating.
Before you call me out on this, hear me out, okay?
Now, it's been a while since I took Parahuman Studies in college, but I do recall another theory being thrown around at the time known as the "Conflict Drive" theory. This had its roots in the fact that all Parahumans have this urge to use their powers, which usually involves getting into a fight, inevitably getting more Capes involved in the process.
Now, these powers are very likely expressions of these Passengers affecting reality, in a way. So now, you have these different Passengers throwing their effects at each other's hosts.
What if the reason for that is because they're doing it to hopefully create newer Passengers?
GG essentially describes hers as being the young child of her mom and her uncle's Passengers (not sure how Gallant's Passenger also got in there. Hopefully, not in the same way the other two did), which... might be because of the... stable and constant interaction between her mom and uncle.
But Parahumans don't always marry other Parahumans. Even teams probably don't always have such constant contact with each other, where their powers interact. So the next best thing is to cause power interactions between Capes in a different manner: By having their hosts fight.
These fights allow constant power interaction, which could possibly lead to Passengers exchanging... whatever they need to exchange... in order to procreate.
This may even explain why Second Gen Capes supposedly have it easier when it comes to gaining powers. The parent Passengers already knows that their host has a child, and so directs its child to connect with the host's child.
►7thSeventh
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
so who do you think aperon will change the pwoers of next
dont think im making aj oke about the number here since hes an adult and shes a child but i think visa could get a real power boost if he helped her out
finally go from being a second stringer to a real powerhouse in the wards
imagine a less-than-70'd clockbocker who can actually control lentgh of freezes, my god
everyone talked shit about gauntless being hot shit but imagine if he could actually use his 69'd powers on actual tinkertech??
hell do you think aperon could reign in low level capse in the bay in promise of a powerup? imagine citrus stealing the boat graveyard away and turning the beach into glasswork instead of being a jewelery store robber and pocket flamethrower punkass
►RobinOnBoardWalk (Unverified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
I would like to point out that blood ties are not required for second generation capes and neither is the need for the parental figure to be the first gen in such a scenario.
Second @7thSeventh my GOD that spelling...
►VerifiedCape (Verified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@RobinOnBoardWalk
To be fair, based on the rest of their post, maybe the passenger knows about the second gen because the first gen used a power on/around them. Like GG is fussy todler, surprise uncle tackle mode! Oh shit little body slams into torso, dont want to fall over at the bbq, but Manpower has the super strength so he can use that to lift the excitable child without falling. But now a passenger with super strength and toughness knows where to find small GG and be ready to spawn when other powers find her so she can trigger.
Also, if passengers reproduce with powers, and powers are related to the brain growths, doesnt that mean all parahumans have a headfull of alien wingwang?
Does that mean being near power use or having them used on you puts you at increased risk of becoming parahuman? Dont tell the phone footage idiots, that will just get more of them killed.
►7thSeventh
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
sorry about the spelling for real
isn't it a Known thing that you can do brain scans to find out if someone who does batshit stuff is a cape or not? my buddy Jake jumped off a roff to dive into a pool once and missed, only chipped a tooth, and got checked for a 'chronal potentia' or something?
i like the idea of 2nd genners not related by blood just having casual contact in their private lives being enough to teach the alien angel on their shoulder. except yknow instead of sitting in midair they're sitting in their brains.
►RobinOnBoardWalk (Unverified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
@VerifiedCape
Well Yes but actually NO
People who have the potential to trigger (Corona Pollentia), who spend a lot of time around a specific parahuman(s) (years worth), who have frequent interactions with said parahuman(s) (optional), who if said parahuman(s) has used their power enough and in potentially creative ways, said parahuman(s) are not a second gen parahuman (passenger to young), and said person triggers before an (arbitrary) allotted amount of time before said new baby passenger moves on to a new host. Then yes spending time around parahuman(s) can lead to an increase chance of causing said person to become a second gen parahuman.
►Wise_Archer
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
I was able to follow you up until these two points. I know I've only recently read up on Passenger theory and such, but I don't think I've ever seen anything ever about these two things.
Far as I know, Parahumans (according to Conflict Drive theory) are only driven to use their powers regularly, not necessarily creatively (though that tends to be a result anyway). And I haven't seen anything in Passenger theory about them leaving for a different host after a while. Any sources on that?
►RobinOnBoardWalk (Unverified Cape)
Replied On Apr 27th 2011:
Ooooh the Conflict Drive is definitely real and passengers do push their host to use their powers by messing with their heads in "subtle" ways. From muted and heightened emotions, nudges here, some misplaced aggression there, and sub optimal life decision making they direct their host to conflict for one simple reason.
Adversity breeds creativity.
Creativity that leads to data for new and refined avenues of power expressions (baby passengers). There's also some interesting data on the psychological effects of parahumans who use their powers regularly in conflict but with little if any variance and those who use them creatively but mostly non offensively (though this was mostly from personal research and observation plus some questionably legally obtained documents). As for the second thing I'll admit I don't have quite enough information to fully prove it. Just some interesting data I came across when researching triggers and the like that due to personal privacy reasons I can't exactly reveal the details (I'm not a complete asshole).
►GimmeGimmeGimme
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Conflict Drive is an alluring hypothesis but doesn't have enough real world support to be a proper theory. We have exactly two data points capable of contributing to our understanding here, and neither indicates that the conflict drive hypothesis has any grounding in reality. Both individuals who we know took personality tests capable of shedding light on things were already the kinds of people who would try to solve problems with force before they became parahumans. If passenger theory is correct, the equally compelling hypothesis is that they simply select people who will behave in ways that are valuable to their symbiosis. Remember, according to trigger theory, you don't become a thinker because you're smart or good at putting clues together. Anyone whose ideas sound well put together probably isn't actually a thinker.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3
(Showing page 4 of 4)
►7thSeventh
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
so do you think all the passengers slash powers slash baby powers all live in the same dimension? to focus more on 68 rather than the meme thread (have you seen how fast that thread's moving? holy hell)
or could it be like the place they all use for talking to each other while each has their own home dimension
... holy shit is the 68-verse power based internet? no wonder so many people turn villian lmao
►GimmeGimmeGimme
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
So many capes turn villain because, whether passengers encourage use of force or look for hosts inclined to use force, there are basically two kinds of people who solve all their problems with force: criminals, and criminals who want the government on their side (cops).
►Yamm0
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
its pretty easy to tell why so many capes are assholes. power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely. a good 70% minimum of the population would misuse even the tiniest power given. have you met a manager at a fast food joint? or a harmony server admin? seriously, even the tiniest bit of power can go to peoples heads, let alone cool fire hands or whatever. talk to one person in any administrative situation. pick a politician. pick a cop, a prt director. most of those guys fuckin suck, only thing is that good capes tend to get murdered a bit faster than the other groups. no need for passengers to do much, just let humans be stupid humans.
also, are any of these obscure ass theories even valid when it comes to Apeiron anymore? say conflict drives exist. why wouldnt he just fix that? i doubt he would enjoy having his passenger yelling at him to beat the shit out of people. why not just remove all the side effects of having powers? if he had a early connection, he could very well be the first ex-mad scientist tinker
►ParaResearcher
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
So I didn't see this thread until now and boy am I regretting it. I actually spent a great deal of time during my academic days looking into Passenger Theory as part of my thesis. People here... have gotten the general sense of it right, enough that I don't feel compelled to dig out my old notes to formulate a correction at least.
Passenger 'Theory' as it is called is less of a scientific theory and more of a set of assertions based upon Empirical behavior and logical reasoning. For instance, as many as mentioned, where does all the energy that Blasters use come from, or where does the mass that some parahumans can create originate? After all, the basic laws of physics indicate that matter and energy can not be created or destroyed, but rather simple changed from one form to another. This is how physics works in a closed system. For a elementary example, if you have a box with a ball bouncing around inside it, so long as that box remains sealed, there is no way to remove or introduce new mass/energy into the box.
Passenger theory, and really, parahumans in general, introduced the idea that we exist in a much more broad system than we thought, and Professor Haywire's work actually proved this back when he made the portal to Earth Aleph. Scientists, parahuman researchers and otherwise, don't believe we exist in a truly open system at this point, but we have begun to accept that the system's limits are beyond our current capacity to measure/observe in any meaningful way. As such, this would explain some of the ways that parahuman powers manifest/work - the energy or mass is simply originating from a different point in the system beyond our ability to observe. This would explain why Legend never runs out of energy for his lasers, or what matter creation parahumans such as Midas are able to create things - they're actually drawing it from elsewhere rather than creating it.
For those who don't know, Midas was a parahuman whose power was to create small amounts of various rare metals. He died when he inadvertently produced a significant sample of Copernicium, a metal we only vaguely know about because it exists as a gas with a half life of seconds at best, and is absurdly reactive. To put it in context, if you were exposed to a 'small' sample, you'd die from cancer within an hour without ever knowing why.
I will say that the few mentions of 'Conflict Drive' is something that is pretty highly debated, even among those who study Passenger Theory. There are far too many counter-examples for many people to accept that it is a real thing, and not being able to really study parahuman powers due to the rarity of parahumans willing to sit for tests of this nature, it's difficult to find a true control group to come up with any sort of real conclusion regarding it. There are plenty of parahumans who don't go out and use their powers - you don't hear about them because they're not knocking over banks or flying around in spandex.
I can mention one thing: powers expanding their scope, if temporarily is not unheard of. Similarly to the '2nd trigger' phenomenon (I believe it is referred to as Case-16), it is something that has been recorded on a few instances, but not reliably. There was a psychologist named Robert Senchen who, after interviewing and working with some parahumans that this had occurred to, who came up with what is now referred to in some circles as 'The Senchen Range'.
Some of you may already know, but Parahumans get their power usually at the lowest points in their lives. The circumstances are different for each individual, and it's not something that can be purposely activated. These are referred to as 'Trigger Events'. What Dr. Senchen proposed was that a parahuman could increase some aspect of their powers by putting themselves into a position where the circumstances matched, or were incredibly similar to the circumstances of their original trigger event. His research is highly contested, and for the most part the details are not public knowledge and from what I understand, deemed classified by various governments, but supposedly one of the individuals he interviewed was a Tinker who was able to temporarily work past his limits due to stress similar to his original trigger. Once said parahuman was no longer in that situation, he could no longer maintain, repair, or even understand the new technology he created in any way.
Again, like much of Passenger theory, it's highly debated and due to the rarity and volitivity of parahumans (even heroically-inclined ones), conducting true analysis, study, and testing is a pipe-dream at this point. Not to mention the clear ethical violations that would be involved.
If these documents are valid (No shade towards you, @ Bagrat) then it opens up new avenues for research and theory. A shame I stepped away from the field - it would probably be fascinating to talk to Glory Girl and Triumph right now.
►Moist_One (Verified Cape) (Kyushu Survivor)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
thought that I'd throw my two cents into this, although keep in mind that i am in no way a scientist.
You don't need to have a long relationship with a cape to get their scraps, if that was mandatory then i would be running around with a pure Thinker power right now instead of being able to fling water around.
Nether do you need to be related to a cape to... pair with them, if some social connection is required then friendship or hate will do.
►Apeiron (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
I'll be the first to admit that I didn't foresee this coming. Passenger space is... strange... to say nothing of the least, and uncontrolled exposure to it is likely to cause more harm than good. That both Triumph and Glory Girl came out of it with minimal harm is miraculous.
So firstly, I have to congratulate the two of you for doing so. Second, I urge that you not pursue this avenue thoughtlessly, as March did. As I've said before, uncontrolled exposure to Passenger space is far too unsafe, for whatever boosts it can give you.
Moving on from that, as there seems to be discussions abound concerning Passengers, I don't believe there is any harm in making some of my own findings known.
To address an issue that has already been brought up, no, Passengers do not connect with people for the sole purpose of mating. Rather, they seem to be keen on observing the ways in which their hosts utilize the powers given to them. Constant use and creativity are often rewarded. For what reason they do this, I have yet to learn, but Survey and I are working on finding out.
The mating process is just an occurrence that happens in the process. In fact, if all we've learned is correct, Passengers in general seem to be, what can best be described, as an opportunistic sexual reproducer.
For those who might not understand that, it boils down to them being able and willing to reproduce asexually, through a process of macro-scale mitosis, but are also willing to created offspring by combining parts of themselves with those of other Passengers, when opportunity presents itself.
A second curious case that I've begun only learned as of recent is that Passengers keep perfect records of their hosts. Their personality, memories from even before they triggered, down to their earliest, in fact. Everything that makes their host who they are, a Passenger will have on record.
I do not know why all Passengers do this, and I can only theorize the reason. However, I know for a fact that this is core to how the Butcher's power works.
It was meeting the Butcher which led me to even look for signs of this possibility. In theory, it should be possible to, with the right procedures, completely erase these records, or even upload them into a new body in order to essentially 'resurrect' the host, provided the Passenger still keeps their record.
Lastly, on the matter of Case 53s. From what little I have observed, the primary reason for Case 53s being what they are seems to be rooted in the fact that their connection to their Passengers is heavily damaged. This has led to uncontrolled physical manifestation of their powers. As of yet, I have no clue how to go about fixing this issue permanently.
More pressingly, however, is the fact that, by all rights, these bad connections should not have been reason for their memories to be erased. This leads me to the conclusion that their amnesia is not likely to be a result of their mangled Passenger connection, but due to some kind of enemy action.
As of now, those are all the things I'm willing to say about the Celestial Forge's findings. I hope this will be helpful for all of those out there who are dedicating their time and effort into studying Parahumans and how they work.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
■
♦ Topic: Changes and Add-ons!
In: Boards ►
Gal_Pal (Original Poster) (Verified Cape)
Posted On Apr 28th 2011:
It is that time of the month again where we gather to discuss all the neat little details, knick-knacks and references that our favorite capes have added to their canvases!
As a start i'll contribute my own little tidbit of info: Legend was spotted this morning (LINK) wearing the cutest scarf! Confessing after being hailed down and interrogated by a an adorable little girl (LINK) that it was made by his husband!
(Showing page 1 of 3)
►7thSeventh
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
first lol
uh but yeah it's always good to see capes actually change up their look, it's why shindig stalkhorse joining up with the wards was a good move, went from 'jason vorheez' serial killer to 'the strangers' home invader killer look
i hope pancakecea gets to switch up ehr color scheme soon - i heard she's attached to the 'full body covering' thing so she can stay as anonymous as the 'new wave' movement she was born into will allow - i think going from white with the red highlights and the medical snakes thingy is good but maybe having like... black as the base with white-and-red highlights would be cool
i think vriska needs to look more badass too like maybe put a bandolier of like stun bolas or other tinkertech. idk if switching from her iconic green woudl work for her. id say knives but she'd probably kick the ass of anyone who suggested she gets blood on her.
clockbocker needs more steampunk and less hi-tech too his look
... i didnt answer the actual question at all huh beyond stalkhorse huh uhhhhh
pariah changes what kind of ballroom gown she wears on a regular basis, id love to see the designer get more work. the porcelin doll face is kinda as creepy as the protectorate's killer rebrand look but if she's attached to it im not gonna complain
►MiraculousMist
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
The Protectorate costume department (or whatever that branch of the organization is called, actually is it part of the PRT?), based on my observations of rare public appearances of known members of it recently, and the looks on their faces and such, seem to be split between those who love this new surge of costume changes and efforts to improve quality of costumes and having the time of their lives, and those who are overworked and hating it. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some with more in-between or mixed reactions, but I haven't been able to tell.
I really like how a lot of Protectorate and Wards tinkers with power-armor are making their gear sleeker looking, it's practical too, given that some of them clearly have improved range of motion in the updated suits, although I worry about any losses to armoring or physical enhancement that might be happening as a result, given how dangerous many villains can be. Hopefully they're also upgrading the materials and strength boosting systems and such, and not just competing for looks and sacrificing toughness/strength for mobility.
This is going to get expensive for me though, all my nieces and nephews are gonna want new figures and stuff for their birthdays and holidays if all their favorite heroes get costume updates, when their heroes are the same, they usually are just satisfied with drug-store art supplies, lol!
►MyNameWasTaken23
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
It's kind of crazy how far this trend is spreading. It's even reaching small towns like mine! We barely have five parahumans and two of them, Soundboard (LINK) and Bearly (LINK), have already completely changed their look (LINK) (LINK). You can barely recognize them! I mean, it's definitely better, I'm just surprised they got it done so fast. Honestly, it feels like people were just waiting for an excuse to overhaul their appearance. Although I feel like some capes, especially independent ones, have gone through total downgrades. Have you guys seen the independent hero in LA, Fractal (LINK)? Like, I get he's going for the whole "shattered" look but this is just too much. I preferred it when he looks like a bunch of snowflakes, even if it doesn't make sense with his powers.
►7thSeventh
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
does frag'all accept fan mail cuz maybe people didn't recognize the koch snowflake fractal on his old outfit and flooded him enough the PR department were like 'we have seventy rooms full of confused fanmail we HAVE to change this'
shame he couldn't go for a dragon curve without The Woman The Legend potentially suing
do outed capes like Weld or New Wave count for 'alternate outfits' if its just their day job stuff? idk if there's any merch for branded in Lawyer Mode or lazy photon in soccer mom mode (complete with matching minivan) but there's definitely Days of Our Capes merch for Weld
►MyNameWasTaken23
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Nah, as I said, Fractal's independent. I think he just changed his costume because people were memeing on him. FreshyFallenFractle.jpg
@7thSeventh
I'll be honest, I had to look up what dragon curve meant. (LINK) For those curious. But I definitely agree! That would've looked so much better. I still prefer the snowflake look tho.
That... is a good question? We don't really have much "casual cape" merch in general so I wouldn't be surprised if New Wave doesn't. I guess it just depends on how willing to monetize their civilian appearance they are. Speaking of, (and pulling the conversation back to the fashion) does anyone know if New Wave has updated their look?
►DapperGator
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Considering recent... events, let's call it that, in Brockton I don't think they have either the time or the resources to do so.
►57_Rats
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Unsurprisingly that seems to be a 'no' for now, and probably will be for while. Though, with the way the team is heading, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some major rebrands soon. I wonder how the themes will diverge, especially if we see some of the team going solo like Manpower. Flashbang is also in dire need of something more intimidating because HFS.
(obligatory 'dont bring up irrelevant NW drama in non drama threads you bastards we are talking about fashion')
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Yeah, actually, talking about Flashbang, how do you think is he going to rebrand himself? Because let's be honest, considering what power he's been showing off over the last week, I don't think the name still fits. I mean, look at this video here and here, he just casually routed two gangs. Sure, the memes are funny, but it really shows that he needs a more serious name and outfit to show that he's business.
There are some capes who manage to get joke names to fit how they act, chief amongst them Chubster, but here it just really doesn't fit.
So what theme do you think would work best? WW1 artillery officer? Demolition expert? I would recommend some star based outfit, but that could be seen as cribbing from the Celestial Forge, so probably not a good idea.
Any other ideas?
►57_Rats
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Right right, wouldn't want to cramp their style, lest they eviscerate you (literally or metaphorically when they pull it off better). And also he needs to take care with the whole 'bomber' theme after the ABB..
He's got the whole Manton thing with his clothes, yeah? With what he's doing, he could wear practically anything with no regard for practicality because no one can get close to him. Color scheme wise I'd be happy to see him moving out of the NW '99% white' shtick and see some wild stuff. Maybe he could play with the bouncing of his bombs more and head with a more Prism-esq light theme? It would also make existing near him slightly safer for other heros. I don't really see him going back to how he was using his powers beforehand, so his costume should probably reflect (lol) that.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3
(Showing page 2 of 3)
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I don't think they'd do something so mean-spirited. I was more thinking that there are going to be so many people trying to imitate the Celestial Forge, that doing so would just make you blend in with the rest of the crowd, rather than standing out.
I... honestly didn't think about that. Yeah, anything "bomb" or "explosion" related probably isn't a good idea right now in BB.
Prism? I don't like that to be honest. First of all, it's still too light-related for my taste, still too much like NW. Which is why my two suggestions were darker, there's more of a distance to his old crew, makes it clear that he's no longer a part of that crowd. Of course I'd rather he avoid going full edge, because that'd be cringe.
Maybe a conductor-esq style instead? He "directs" his explosions to control the battlefield, that could work. What do you think?
►U778U
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Like a train conductor? That could be cool, or similar costumes. I've personally always loved the circus ringmaster hats. Also, yes! Dark colors are a must. Stand out from his bombs and the NW, maybe black/blue? I like the idea of having a prim and proper suit when siting in the middle of a hell-zone, that's always tasty picture, also emphasizes how causally he wrecks shop. He could totally go for a blend of train conductor and old timey war aesthetic, the military cut would fit in nicely with Miss Militia.
Speaking on rebranding, name changes that don't evoke bad memories. This might apply to Manpower too, though I don't think Lady Photon and her gaggle of kids will do much in that regard since they've been sticking together.
Speaking of BB related capes, the Wards are in dire need of a rebrand too, though there are so many different directions to go to. The BB Protectorate better thank their lucky stars that they have two (2) fashion capes in the midst of the costume renaissance
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@U778U
I was actually thinking more of the conductor of an orchestra, but a train conductor could work as well, more of a working-class connection than my upper-class idea, both could work out rather well, depends on what message he wants to come across.
I would prefer several shades of blue, ranging from dark blue to some lighter shades. Black is overdone IMO, sure, it works, but it's just depressing.
I know, right! There's just something about kicking ass while looking like a gentleman that's super appealing to me.
Regarding new names, well, if Flashbang chooses to go with the orchestra conductor idea of mine, then Tchaikovsky would be the obvious choice.
Manpower, eh. I don't really have any decent idea, he's just another generic brute, anything works for those.
But oh dear god yes, do the Wards need a rebrand! Especially Clockblocker! I just can't take that name seriously, especially since he's shown that he really has what it takes to be a leader. Maybe Belltower? Anyone know any famous clockmakers, those could be used?
Edit: Actually found two people after whom Clockblocker could style himself:
1. Amenemhet, a governor from ancient Egypt, who massively improved the water clock, allowing it to account for the increasing length of the night as the year marches on. BB is at the sea, and time is accounted for. No other reason for choosing that name, honest!
2. John Harrison, developer of the marine chronometer. Again, both water and clocks are taken into account.
►Altable
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I don't know if they'll go for that honestly. As far as I'm aware apart from immunity to his explosions I don't think he has any enhanced durability. So anything that might not get stopped by his explosions but still hurt him (like that Nazi ghost Cape) would take him out. Standing out from the exploding mess just gives people a target. The balancing of practicality and aesthetics is why I love Cape fashion.
I love the conductor idea so maybe a conductor's suit recoloured white? Got those style points while still blending into his powers.
►57_Rats
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
The first is nice. If going to lead to a bunch of mispronunciations, though all the best cape names are the funky weird ones. Is there a cape named Chronometer or am I misremembering someones name?
Of the other Wards, I think Vista needs a rebrand. Her actual actions don't really fit the kiddie brand anymore, it's jarring. Even if it's just to dampen the PR, she's definitely getting the revamp a few years earlier. Shadow Stalker could probably survive without a costume change, not complimenting her look just that it's not entirely outdated now. Browbeat has always been bad. Please give my man some identity. He's been doing field medic shit, take the diamond pattern off of him!
For the adults, Triumph...hmp. I dunno, his costume's just never done it for me. The lion theme is a cool idea but the actual costume...He's still in med lockdown after the UH, right? Wonder when he's coming back to active duty.
Please give Assault a new costume. Put another color on him please. There is just Too Much Red.
Oh, have ya'll seen the pictures of Dragons BB suit? Our queen is ROCKING IT!!!
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@57_Rats
I'm glad you agree!
No, actually, there isn't. I checked.
Yeah, none of the BB Wards really fit the kiddy brand anymore. Though I come up blank regarding what changes should be performed. Though that might be because after seeing just how close too some of these bombs she got, I'd rather she stay at home, some of these hits came way too close.
Yeah, the edgelord can stay as she is, maybe chage some minor details so that it doesn't look drab compared to the rest of the teams upgraded wardrobe.
I couldn't agree more! Seriously, he can both punch and heal, I can't remember any other cape (not named Apeiron) that's capable of that! You've gotta be capable to do something with that! "Stand between me and my patients and you'll get flattened", the PR writes itself!
Eh, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on those two, I actually like both the lion theme and the color of Assaults costume.
OH, HELL YES! She really dressed to impress for her pursuit.
Are Crusaders ghosts actually immune to explosions? I'm being honest here, I'm genuinely curious. I know bullets and the like don't work, but I've never seen them blown up.
Bakuda's bombs don't count, those are tinkertech, that stuff's weird. But on the other hand, Flashbang's explosions are also the result of his power, so it could go either way. If someone has footage of Crusader's ghost being hit by a conventional bomb, could you please send it to me?
►BEHOLD_MAN
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@Solemnity
On one hand, feeding the Vista/CB shippers. On the other hand, some small part of their new designs referencing their synergy would be so fucking nice I love that shit. On the third hand growing out of my chest, feeding the Vista/CB shippers
....yeah, prolly not worth it 
.
.
Also: With Shadow Stalker on the team, we have had a excuse to forgo any facade of 'cohesion'. She sticks out like...something that sticks out in a group! I vote to drown out her edginess by having every Ward go in wildly different directions. I want every photo op to look they photoshopped a bunch of random capes together.
Or just make a logo.
Anyway, Kid Win has been revamping his tech like crazy, so there is a easy starting point. Maybe moving away from the 'Kid version of Hero' theme? Either leaning into the more techy/mature tinker costumes or moving out of it entirely instead of 'Hero, but short!'
Ah yes, my favorite power archetype: Doctor With A Gun. Seriously though, he doesn't need body armor! He can wear SO MANY THINGS.
Regarding Triumph and Dragon-we need more animal capes. So much you can do there. Love both their costumes. Though Triumph might actually get his redesign before he gets out onto the field again with Panacea out of commission, he was not looking good.
Honestly, half the problem with most of the costumes right now is that you don't really know where to start. Like yeah, this costume is fine or whatever, but it's clearly outclassed, but where do you even begin? Aside from asking Garment. For Flechette I wouldn't have known what to say until Garment showed up.
Speaking of Garment, do we know if the Protectorate will be buying any commissions? Or are they going to slowly send everyone over there for PR and hope Garment gifts them accessories like she has everyone else?
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@BEHOLD_MAN
Yeah, that ship is just creepy, let's just pretend it doesn't exist, OK?
Yep, that girl's theme just really doesn't fit in with the rest of the Wards at all. So long as she's around any attempt at a unified style is doomed to fail. Unless the rest of the Wards swallow the derp potion and transform into edgelords.
Costumes with tinkers are always a mess, because they're so dependent on their equipment. On tool, weapon or piece of armor can make the difference between a well put-together costume and an absolute mess.
But generally, I would too advise him on going with a more mature style, either by fully embracing Hero's legacy or by choosing his own path.
Yeah, the possibilities are really endless for him, especially when you consider his tactile telekinesis, which would allow for some really crazy designs to become practical.
Eh, animal capes only work with certain abilities of bodytypes. For the Wards, I can only really see Shadow Stalker work with such a theme, for the rest it'd just be awkward.
Oh yeah, that cape is just, *chef's kiss*, perfect. But there's a reason people need to study before joining a PR department. That stuffs basically a science in itself.
They'll most likely design the new outfits themselves, though they might outsource the production.
►Altable
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Yeah power interactions can be pretty weird. I only bring him up because I saw him in the background of a video of the Ungodly Hour. All of the explosives that were used went right through his projections but then they started to use missiles with a very specific effect that seemed to work better. Whether he can or can't it's possible and even likely that one Cape or another could break through so giving up an evasive option like that doesn't seem like something an experienced Cape would do.
Though considering how harsh the light is and how harsh the shadows created are maybe a mix of light and dark would act as even better camouflage? Be hard to pull off without looking edgy and/or cluttered but it'd be an interesting way of breaking away from New Wave while still being recognizable as the same Cape.
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@Altable
Right, so we both agree that we have no idea whether Flashbang's explosions would be effective against Crusader's ghosts, and that we don't know if wearing darker colors would make him easier or harder to detect.
...
Well, that was anticlimactic. Damn power interactions, ruining all the VS threads.
End of Page. 1, 2
(Showing page 3 of 3)
►57_Rats
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Ehhhh....after the fucking disaster that was last spring line, I'm happy to see fresh blood in the field, especially someone so talented. Like, have you SEEN her videos? I never knew why the color clash between 'Spring Showers' bows and skirts bugged me so much, but now I can actually rebut the essayists on this goddamned forum. Seriously though, those things were wayy too poofy. Springtime is for light, flowery dresses, not 8-layer petticoat looking shit! and if you bother with a petticoat, at LEAST use the right stitch pattern, don't half ass it. the folds were all wrong!
►Solemnity
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I feel you brother, I really do. Like, I always knew that there was just something off with some costumes, but only now am I able to pin it down. Garment really is a gift from god for the cape fashion community.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3
■
[Written with the help of CorEagle's "PHO Blacksmithery - Brockton's Celestial Forge"(PHO Blacksmithery - Brockton's Celestial Forge) and the users who frequent the thread.]
@LordRoustabout please threadmark this
Last edited:
- Location
- Behind you
Boooooo, not making Joe say "Be not afraid"
Really liked it, it didn't give the somewhat plastic feeling some PHO bits give, and it really felt like there were actual people behind the comments.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
*Incredulously, but it appears that floor is made out of floor
- Location
- Philippines
Man, if there's anything that deserves a PHO bit, it'll be the response to this.
The (link) isn't working 😅
PHO - Who could beat the members of the Celestial Forge, Alter-Earth Fighterz 5 (Martian_Tech)
■
Welcome to the Parahumans Online message boards.
You are currently logged in, Just_Me
You are viewing:
• Threads you have replied to
• AND Threads that have new replies
• OR private message conversations with new replies
• Thread OP is displayed.
• Ten posts per page
• Last ten messages in private message history.
• Threads and private messages are ordered chronologically.
■
♦ Topic: Who could beat the members of the Celestial Forge, and could they beat some of the top names in caping?
In: Boards ► Places ► America ► Brockton Bay ► Versus
Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Posted On Apr 28th 2011:
We all know that capes can be lower than street tier or city killers, with some particular examples being worse than others (such as the S9, Nilbog, whoever invented the Machine Army, etc.). What I want to know is what top-tier capes could go toe to toe with the members (or perhaps even the whole group) of the Celestial Forge and maybe even win.
From the PRT press release, every single one of them is a powerhouse and they are quietly panicking while trying to reassure we, the public, that everything is under control. I'll start by giving a summary of everything we know about them from the PRT eavesdropping on the cape meeting where they were revealed.
Fleet - definite mover and brute, possible tinker. If so, probably of vehicles similar to Squealer.
Lethe - Stranger.
Apeiron - TINKER. It deserves to be in all caps.
Survey - Thinker, possible tinker, probably of sensory systems.
Matrix - Shaker. Possible Changer or Tinker. As evidenced by the giant version of his costume that we saw during the Ungodly Hour.
Proto Aima - Striker. Possible Trump. Changer.
Kataklyzein - Cat. Brute. Possible Combat Thinker. Other power(s) unknown.
If you haven't noticed, there is a bit of a theme there with possible tinkers, so there is a suggestion going around that at least part of the CF was a group trigger.
So discuss! I want to hear all your crazy theories. Don't hold back!
(Showing page 1 of 6)
►420TIMES
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Why are we pointing out Kataklyzein's species? Might as well write 'human' down on everyone elses bit LOL
Okay, before people start going, TrInUmVirAtE wInS, lets get something actually interesting? Please? Please?
Firstly, CF solos vs capes in the area. Three easy ones:
Apeiron vs Anyone TBH. what the fuck is Blasto going to do? Throw plants at him? My guys pyrokinetic. Lung didnt have shit on him. dunno if anyone could take him aside from maybe the Butcher giving him trouble and the DoD.
Survey....thinkery shit=no fight. She would have your power specs and insecurites within 20 seconds. Youd come to kill her end up working for her and the Forge. Set out to fight her and 3 weeks later your carrying out some plot to take over a cartel in Mexico to make getting like, a brand of jelly slightly easier. and youd probably get a better wage (and healthcare) than whatever shitty gig you had before.
Matrix. TF is anyone gonna do vs the giant robot. Genuinely where do you start
Also, how about some of yalls Independant faves. Try to justify how theyd survive pissing the Forge off
►LavaToy
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Let's save some trouble and just pick from the list of S rank assholes.
*Checking the list*
OK. That's a lot of Assholes.Why do we have this many horrible villains?! Thank Chaos Apeiron isn't in the list yet.
►LioneThePenguini
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Lady Fairy? Do you mean Hero from Wyoming? Or Fairy Doll - ward from Montana???
Either way, I can't really see how they can compare to Bullshit Tinker, even together. I mean, creating cool illusions and making bubblegum minions is fine and all, but no quite Apeiron level. Although maybe if they were coordinated by some kind of thinker...
►UrU09
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Huh, wonder if there are any thinkers who could try and pull a rabbit...though we barely have any grasp on what her real power lvl was...
►All_I_Survey (Verified Cape) (Celestial Forge)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@420TIMES
Thanks for the idea!
►Justcat
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Counterpoint, 3 day old tech.
He probably can tank one of scion beams by now.
...Just so yall know I'm saying one to try to keep the bullshit down(edit)
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I wonder if Apeiron could build a containment thing for the Ash Beast and use him as a power source for his next super big tech thing.
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Uhhh I think he's talkin bout the fairy queen? Who is thankfully in the birdcage? Who, hopefully, will never escape and pick a fight with Apeiron!
Because seriously, we all saw what happened when he fought Lung. The aftermath would be even vers than Ungodly Hour.
Much bad, that would be.
Buuuut since this is a vs thread I'll answer the hypothetical scenario.
If Apeiron gets time to prepare he'd probably win, because I doubt nothing short of an endbringer would stand a chance against a Prepared Apeiron. Otherwise it could go either way, depending on Ape's loadout...
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Wait. The Fairy Queen's powers are pretty well documented (from all those people who tried to kill her for no reason before she willingly went into the Birdcage as its first inmate.) She can gain 'fairies' of capes that she kills or who died recently in the area that she passes through. Each fairy retains its original powers or they might be a bit altered. She can channel the powers through herself or let the fairies use them under her command. She has a limit on how many active fairies she can have, but no one is quite sure how many that is.
Meaning that if the Fairy Queen had time to prepare and was willing to kill powerful capes to gain their 'fairies', wouldn't she eventually get a combo that might be able to oneshot Apeiron. For example, March, Damsel of Distress, and another Annihilator cape or two could probably get him in one shot. I mean, if she went and killed the Siberian for her known durability, even against Annihilators (Although she's only fought a few of them that we know of), then used that fairy and the fairy of two annihilators, she might kill Apeiron in one hit and tank whatever countermeasures or suicide traps he's got in his loadout at the time.
Edit: Anyone notice that we're saying might, or maybe, or I think, in regards to capes and threats that we'd normally say would trample anything in their way when we put them up against Apeiron? That shows his power level for real.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
(Showing page 2 of 6)
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Ok, here's my counter argument.
You suggested that FQ can use annihilator-fairies for offence against Ape.
We saw Apeiron taking damage from space-warping attacks from both Leet and March. That's his only conformed weakness that's publically known. Obviously he'd try to find a way to protect himself from such attacks. So it's safer to assume that will likely be less effective against him in the future.
If he can't find a way to tank a hit like that he'd at least prepare a way to dodge, right?
You suggested using Siberian as a meat-shield (thank you for that refreshing image btw).
It speculated that Siberian power works by liberally fucking up the laws of physics around her. Guess who also does that every time he shows up? I know it's not the same and a lot of capes normally do that, but Apeiron's isn't exactly normal.
So if anyone can out-bullshit the Siberian, it'd be Apeiron.
If he can make something like Bakuda's time-stop bombs, no amount of invulnerability is gonna be enough. Probably.
And I agree! The fact that we can't decide who gets curb stomped even when names like FQ and The Siberian are involved, it pretty fucking terrifying...
►Moist_One (Verified Cape) (Kyushu Survivor)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Are you people forgetting how The Fairy Queen's own power works? she doesn't need to work with Apeiron's weaknesses
not to mention that if anyone can out-Tinker/thinker him then its probably her
Like, i get that it's easy to be swept up in the hype and news talkingpoints when something this big rocks the boat but lets not forget that congress were debating throwing the entire post Coldwar military industrial stockpile against her until something stuck.
we managed to wall of Nilbog, we fend of the Slaughterhouse and even the damn Endbringers on a regular basis, but no one could think of how to so much as stop her
►NotSoFast4
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Thats assuming he doesnt just steal the tech midfight and rework it into something 4989x more powerful in .5 seconds.
I feel like we're ignoring Apeirons apparent build/modification speed here, he is the legendary combat tinker. Its a viable strat
Also, yes she does? Not sure what you mean by that, but if her fae try to do anything aside from apparently dimensional attacks he will no-sell them. I agree on the thinker bit though, it looks like hes mostly left that to Survey
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
That's actually a good point. I mean, we already saw how fast he was. March only got him with her BS because she had a teleporting duplicator to use it for her, and even then she had to script every second of the fight for him and Apeiron still almost got out and he survived (if in the worst condition we've seen him in.
Well, he took a lot of bombs out of people's heads right? If we didn't hear about them going off out in the middle of nowhere (probably the safest thing to do with them, tbh) then we can assume he found a way to block Bakuda's detonation signal right? If he can do that and manage to not accidentally set them off, he could probably reverse engineer them (or learn to tell what they do or the safest way to break them or something. I don't even know anymore). If he could do that, there might be something in there he could use against a uber-Brute like the Siberian or Alexandria (Such as the suggested time stop bomb).
Yeah. Bringing tinkertech to a fight against Apeiron and giving him any time to interact with it in a construction-type action is going to end up almost as bad for you as if you did that in a Simurgh fight.
I agree. His armor was tanking hits from Super Lung and according to some rough calculations I've done, what happened to Lung at the end there seemed like his armor/bike went near or superluminal in atmo, so it had to be durable enough to survive doing that until it hit Lung.
Anyway, interdimensional or annihilator BS does look the only thing that's really useful against him right now tbh. And if we're even more honest, he's probably trying to counteract that right now as we speak.
On a different subject, Lethe could probably just turn on her Stranger power and follow you home, wait till you take off your armor and costume and turn off your power, then stick a razor sharp Apeiron-grade knife into your forehead, so I don't think there's anyone she couldn't beat except someone with absolute immunity to Strangers or an uber-brute like Alexandria/Siberian (not a pairing you pervs). Also power nullifiers such as Hatchet Face could probably win against her.
Hey, that's a different train of thought. Would a power nullifier work against Apeiron?
►NotSoFast4
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@Just_Me
She wouldnt even have to wait until then. We have yet to see her in ANY combat and she has an Apeiron grade custom suit. If she doesnt have 12^26 different 'Fuck This Continent and Physics Also' grade weapons Id be shocked. Imagine having one of his Super Death Lasers of Doom pointed at you, but its completely invisible so you cant even attempt to dodge. Terrifying shit.
Speaking on Stranger immunity, have we gotten any word about people able to ignore the effect? Normally theres at least one guy bragging about it, but Lethe isnt a small time Stranger...and shes almost definitely has/is having her power tweaked by Apeiron.
Anyway Hatchet Face might be able to keep track of her, but her suit with unknown capabilites throws that into a 'maybe if hes very lucky and she lets him' zone.
...Thats a bit more of a complex question than with most tinkers since Apeirons tech is even more intertwined with his powers, and powers in general. With a power specialization and such crazy tech, its probably one of the two extremes: either completely ignores the nullification, or hes fucked!
EDIT: Also, if Lethe followed someone home and incedentally snooped out someones civvie identity, Apeiron would probably be pretty pissed if he counts it as a contract. Lethe might not give a shit but not pissing off your leader and Scary Tinkerman is probably a requirement for working under him
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
That's a good point. Also, based on other people's behavior on PHO, isn't Lethe's power more 'forget I exist' than invisibility? Anyway, I was trying to come up with a use of her power that would be more terrifying to most capes than being in a direct fight against them (even if that is pants-shittingly terrifying).
Hey, I wonder if Apeiron built her a generic suit of power armor (his quality level of course), or did he build her a Stranger suit, such as cloaking and phasing and other things that fall under Stranger power classifications that she can use without even turning on her own power?
Yeah. I'd say if the tech is being directly and constantly supported by Apeiron's powers, and isn't shielded against power interference, I'd say exposure to someone like Hatchet Face would make it fail. Shielding of the right kind on this tech may or may not protect it, based on how strong the shielding is and how strong Hatchet Face's powers are. If Apeiron's tech isn't directly supported by his powers, just super advanced in a way that you require powers to learn how to build it, then exposure wouldn't make it fail.
Do you mean the Unwritten Rules as an implied social contract? Otherwise I have no idea what you mean here.
Next person: How scary is a super-powered cat in a fight? I'm thinking that the quality/strength of Kataklyzein's powers aren't any lower than the rest of theirs, but how do they shape up in a fight against, say, Tactical, a combat thinker who ended up becoming the Butcher after one of his thinker traps got the host at that time killed.
►NotSoFast4
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Yeah exactly, we still have no idea what the hell counts as a contract to him. He could consider any real agreement as contract level importance or pull some fairytail bs with wording.
Kataklyzein doesnt wear any armor, and he probably isnt a thinker, so Im saying hes a stupidly major brute. Also, 87% chance hes former millitary, so its a 50-50 for decent brute or military captain of legends. Considering Apeiron, Kataklyzein is probably pretty damned smart himself. Would be surprised if any of the CF fell into the classic pitfalls of capes (like Survey being useless without her power/relying on it too much ect ect)
Still, the helmet and spear are probably tinkertech in and of themselves and the chances of them being highly destructive...
Personally id be surprised if any lone cape aside from major standouts could handle him. Even if he couldnt avoid traps hed be able to tank them
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@Just_Me
Would precognition work on her?
I'm really curious... Will the precog see the attack coming but will immediately forget it, won't see it entirely or see it coming but dies anyway because bullshit assassin has Apeiron-certified weapon?
@NotSoFast4
You forgot the 3rd possibility, where he pull out a reverse uno and turns the power nullification against the user!
And the terrifying 4th possibility, where things blow up spectacularly...
Remember that one time when March & Oni Lee tried to kill Apeiron?
@Just_Me
Just assume her suit can do both... Along with a whole bunch of other things.
Hell, it probably even has a cup holder!
Seriously at this point, the mindset before picking a fight with Apeiron (or any CF member, really) should be,
"Expect the worst to happen, and maybe, just maybe we won't be underestimating them (when shit gets inevitably fucked)."
►Sothoth
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Well, precogs might not be able to see her, but even then, all they need to do is just precog themselves. If they see themselves die with no discernable reason, it stands that Lethe is around and about to kill them.
►I4Detail
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
In all seriousness, the Celestial Forge harshly averts lots of the usual tropes for capes. Exhibit A: Lethe.
No-one puts a Stranger in power armor. It just isn't done. To begin with, even Protectorate and Ward Strangers don't get a lot of effort put into their costumes. Catsuits, MiB mock ups, classic spy, sure, but nothing elaborate. Why waste the effort and money when their powers actively divert attention? For another, no-one would trust a Stranger with power armor. A government agency putting capes that are already hard to detect into walking tanks that can squish normies with their bare hands? Are you kidding me? And villains? Fuggedaboutit.(Literally) The big wigs are already suspicious enough about Strangers without adding superstrength and flight to the mix.
Monke Steel is either really confident in his tech or really trusting of Lethe. Normally I'd say the former hands down, but she was his first responder right after the Sundering, so one wonders.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
(Showing page 3 of 6)
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Yeah. Every single Stranger who has an invisibility or SEP type power are under constant scrutiny, even those who are Protectorate heroes. People who can walk through walls (Shadow Stalker for example) have a lot more leeway, even though their powers are just as potentially dangerous as the other kinds of Stranger with the right training. For example, imagine a top-level spy who specializes in infiltration and sabotage with SS's power-set. They'd probably be able to take down a whole PRT base by themselves so long as no capes or tinkertech were brought against them.
Let's see who have we not talked about... We did Apeiron (a lot), we did Lethe, we did Survey (if only a little bit), we did Kataklyzein (also only a little bit) we did the Matrix (similar to the other two), oh Proto Aima and Fleet!
We know that Proto Aima is a high-grade striker and changer, with a boosting effect for those who can withstand the damage her striker power causes. She's probably also a Brute. Who could fight her and not take severe injuries the first time they were touched? Alexandria and Siberian of course, as top brutes, maybe Moord Nag's projection? Blasters with mover powers or partners such as New Wave or Purity might be able to just blast her to pieces from a distance, especially if she's alone, but Strikers would probably get killed as soon as they tried to touch her, and Shakers have too variable powers to know how they'd affect her as a general class. If we're right and the glowing red lines on Apeiron were his teammate, she could leap at you, Changer into spaghetti mode, wrap around you, and Striker you to death. Remember what happened to March when she got touched by her?
Fleet's ultimate attack is probably pretty similar to the Sundering or Apeiron's Doom Laser if he was the one driving Apeiron's other Tripidacus Mechsuits, so... Top brutes again such as Alexandria? Legend might be able to dodge, or perhaps teleporters who can move instantly. Those with charge up times on their teleports would die as soon as he went all out, soooo........
►Abxity
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Counterpoint: We have no idea how Proto Aimas striker power works. Apeiron is the only one whos touched her, and he had the best healing in the world on and then was physically altered by the experience. She could absolutely belong to the Could Maim Alexandria Club.
We also dunno how she takes damage. He was using her as a physical weapon pretty damn well for a while and she seemed unharmed by the physical damage to Apeiron for the most part. Whatever the fuck shes made out of could be pretty damn durable, its not like she has any armor when shes in her 'main' form'
Doubt you could snipe her in general, seems like too obvious of a weakness. Apeiron probably stuffed 8 brute powers into her first chance she got if she didnt have them already.
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@Sothoth That could work I suppose... But I was actually thinking of combat precogs and the like, that predict attacks, or danger-sensor type capes.
@Just_Me
Damn, your right lol we kinda ignored the other elephants in the room didn't we.
But then again, we didn't see many of them in action.
We don't know what powers Survey has other than some kind of information related thinker power and Being Gorgeous! Because there's no way powers aren't involved.
We don't know what abilities Fleet has other than being a tinker with (possibly) a vehicle specialty? And being fast as fuck boi
We don't know (for sure) whether he's a Brute or just wears an Apeiron grade safety suit that protects him during high speed movement.
Also how fast do you think Fleet is? He's kinda stealing your thunder so any thoughts on that?
@Velocity_Protectorate
We also don't know what the army kat can do because he didn't seem to be even remotely involved in Ungodly Hour.
Proto Aima still kinda scare me tbh so Imma just move on to The Matix.
The Matrix. The holy-fuck-sized robot that walked into Apeiron's gun safe and said "yes".
What the fuck is there to even talk about? And I'm totally not being biased because I'm a giant robot fan here.. But who, aside from our beloved draconic overlady and The Triumvirate, has the balls and the tools to even fight that?
Is there any cape in the bay that can fight him head-on? I doubt anything less than an annihilator can do any meaningful damage (he threw down with a goddamn 40ft Lung!) , and he probably has some serious long range weapons, so even annihilators stand little chance.Not to mention whatever crazy shields he's got...
Bakuda doesn't count! She's a dead woman walking!
►Sothoth
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Don't forget that Survey has Thinker powers augmented by Apeiron tech. That, frankly, is more terrifying. If we're assuming that all the capes in Celestial Forge are Apeiron-tier or near it on their base level, then with Apeiron himself as their Tinker, these base levels should be multiplied by a ton. There's a reason why Tinkers in a team are often called power multipliers, and Apeiron is one hell of a multiplier.
►EvilToaster
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
I rewatched Ungodly Hour stream for, like, 11th time and suddenly caught interesting thing:
Hey, what can be more terrifying than Stranger in power armor? One that can fly. Usually fliers are at least save from these sneaky bastards, but apparently Lethe can backstab you even if you chilling at 5 kilometers above the sea level.
Also, anyone know what the hell was that Fleet's attack? I think I saw someone call it Finish Line or something. Like, I know people deducted that it was probably some dimensional bullshit, but how Fleet executed this attack if Tripredacus Guardian was built by Apeiron himself? Was he somehow enchanting vehicle he presumably remotely controlled or what? Is he Dauntless or, hell, B*tch but for vehicles? In which case can he have entire fleet of empowered vehicles and just mass bombard any opponent that will try to fight him? I dont think even superbrutes like Alexandria can get through this. Hell, with big enough fleet Fleet probably can outspam even Eidolon (or force draw cuz Eidolon will, I dunno, shit into 1 second into future and become invulnerable)
►
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@EvilToaster
Apeiron could have started building dimensional shit (or the other possible tinkers) into the Guardian. What we know is that Fleet had the idea, and executed it by Apeirons words, possibly with pre-existing tech. Though it begs the question, why wasnt he better prepared for March if he was already building offensive dimensional weaponry? Youd think if he was researching it at all hed focus on his apparent arch nemesis.
Anyway Id compare it to more of a trick shot with a gun versus completely new tech, but Fleet could take after Apeiron with the rapid assembly and modification. Who knows at this point
No where is safe from Lethe, we mere mortals can only beg to the universe that she lets us be.
(But no really, how maneuverable is she? Could she pop over to a different state to have a 'chat' with the local Protectorate or annoying capes real fast?)
@Sothoth
If we could only get even the tiniest hint of the limits/applications, I could (hypothetically) consider sleeping in the next century. Seriously, from ''normal'' information gathering tinkertech, to some plain bullshit power applications who knows! Survey could be a Thinker: Yes with rapidly growing powers to meet Apeiron in the middle. She could be connected to essentially every network at once. She could have his overpowered scanners built directly in her. The fucking stars apparently arent a limit
@RandomBullShitGo
Whered you get the vehicle stuff? His name? Isnt that an allusion to his speed? Or I guess it could be yet another double meaning, since the CF loves having everything pull double time with secondary effects...
Whatever Fleets speed is, hes not nearly as limited as a lot of speedster capes. He was able to independantly speed up one of his arms to a frankly already spooky speed without much effort. And since this is CF, hes not going to fall into any mover pitfalls. Personally im banking on 'Velocity, but no drawbacks' added ontop of his possible tinker subrating. Or maybe the speeds tech?
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@RandomBullShitGo
Is it just me or does anyone else think that Velocity should have more of Breaker rating than a Mover one. He gets weaker the faster he goes, but in all the clips where he drops back to normal, does it seem like he's out of breath? Not to me. I think he's screwing with time and then going for a stroll at the appropriate speed to get where he's going, and as a side effect, he divorces himself from conventional physics, both in what can affect him (running at certain speeds without a breaker effect would get you killed the first time you hit a bug or a pebble) and what can affect him. It seems like Fleet might be more pure speed and less breaker.
@EvilToaster
That's actually a really good name for it.
That is a terrifying thought. Although, it seems like the bike/mechsuit was destroyed by doing that, even though it was Apeiron grade tech. If he was empowering the bike somehow (like Dauntless+Hellhound), I don't think he could get the same results with a weaker or lower-tech vehicle. For example, trying to use a car from the 1960s in a similar manner would probably not even fail spectacularly, it would just whimper and die.
►Lockstonjon
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Velocity does have a Breaker rating? His Mover rating is his subrating aka the power granted by his Breaker state. Are you from out of town? Id recc you brush up on your local cape facts then
Also, remember guys, PRT ratings are for functionality, aka how the PRT will treat the cape, versus accurate description of the power mechanics. Thats what debriefs are for
►VerifiedCape (Verified Cape)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
I'm more confused that people itt keep saying shadow stalker can pass through walls with her stranger rating. Turning into a cloud of shadow makes her hard to see, which is, definitionally, a stranger power. Passing through walls is a breaker effect, also, coincidentally, her primary prt rating.
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
A Stranger power is any parahuman or superhuman ability or skill that makes it easier for you to infiltrate a location, disguise yourself (several of these also fall under Changer), or divert attention from yourself. Lethe is technically a Master/Stranger combo, because she isn't bending light, she's messing with people's memories. A pure stranger with a similar effect would be more breaker/shaker to change how light behaves in an area where they want to camouflage or turn invisible. I think that Stranger ratings all fit more under other categories in mechanics, but how they behave or are used is what makes them Stranger powers.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
(Showing page 4 of 6)
►KnowNothing
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Lethe, isn't a master, as far as we know. Masters are defined as those who fight using minions, not as those who control minds. It applies as much to Alviss, that chick who tried to hold Ottawa hostage with a nutcracker army back in December 95, as it does to people like Heartbreaker of Insight. To the best of our knowledge Lethe is just an unparalleled Stranger with an unspeakably powerful set of power armor. Though, would we know if she was also a Master or a Blaster? Do we even know that she's really flying with that power armor and she isn't just disguising that she's an Alexandria package?
►Just_Me (Original Poster) (Verified Just Him) (Nobody Else)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
I meant Master in mechanic, not in her fighting style or threat combat method. Anything that interferes with another person's mind is a Master effect. Whether that's ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL, directed emotional changes such as Gallant's beams, GG's aura, changing a person's senses in a parahuman gaslighting campaign, changing someone's memories, those are all Master powers in mechanic, even if they facilitate a personal fighting style/anti fighting style that more appropriately belongs to another category.
I bet the suit gives Lethe a Mover/Blaster rating all on it's own.
►KnowNothing
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
That's just the thing, dude. There isn't a Master mechanic there is just people who fight using minions. Abilities like Simon the Likeable who made people unwilling to stop or arrest him because he just seemed so nice qualifies as a Master because people would help him, even fight for him. Glimpse, on the other hand is classified as a Shaker even though she would mess with people's minds by trapping them in a personalized illusion that made them experience their worst nightmare. "Master" has nothing to do with effecting people's minds, the terms have nothing to do with how they work.
►
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
If a parahuman's power affects your mind, they're a Master. If they use minions, they're a Master. That's just a fact. It's weird, there should probably be some separation, but that's just how things are. The only reason some capes aren't Masters is politics/PR, which in turn just makes distinguishing what is and isn't a Master even more confusing.
►WiseAss
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
And what does that mean, exactly? If somebody stabs you, your mind will feel pain. Somebody seduces you, your mind will feel pleasure. Somebody's power is to scream so loud that you bleed from your ears; a healer that corrects any hormonal imbalances you might have, they all affect the mind. Fuck, you could turn a saint into a raging psychopath through classic brainwashing alone.
Who is Master and who is not? Where do you draw the line?
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I think you're just over thinking and over complicating things.
The Mover, Shaker, Brute, Breaker, etc. etc. classification is just the PRT power classification system they use to identify parahuman threats and strategize accordingly. The classification is only intended to rate the threat posed by the power itself and to identify the protocols they need to follow to counter it. We all (should) know this.
When you use the PRT classification terms like Master, Stranger, etc. to describe how a power works, you're just confusing everybody.. (or is it just me??)
Let me clarify.
Strangers are capes with an ability focusing on stealth and/or infiltration. Lethe is therefore a (god-tier) Stranger. How she achieve this effect, and how to (possibly) counter it (as much as they can, at any rate) is included in their protocols for engaging Lethe.
Shakers are capes with an AOE type power. So even though GloryGirl's aura affect the mind, she can't be called a Master because Masters are capes who make/use minions to fight, which require a completely different approach in engagement.
See how things can get really confusing?
@WiseAss
See, this guy's confused too (I think)
Master capes, as I mentioned have a power to create/use minions to fight. That's it. Don't over think it. That way lies madness and depression..
If you're assuming that being a Master means being able to control/manipulate others, you're not entirely correct. Disregarding the fact that powers aren't strictly necessary to manipulate someone, a lot of capes can do that kinda thing. E.g. March.
That hypothetical line you're seeking, has been brutally fucked over and is silently weeping in a corner ever since parahuman powers became a thing...
Also, we're going way off topic here! Can we get back to discussing baseless theories, hypothetical nightmare scenarios and making mountains outta molehills as we're supposed to do in this thread? Pretty please?
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
RandomBullshit is right. I come to PHO to be stupid and have fun. I don't really want to think too much whenever I'm here. I do that enough at work.
Moving onwards, has Nilbog been brought up?
►Allthetimeallthetime
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Apeiron has shown he rlly rlly loves massive attacks so he could probably whip up a super nuke within a minute and leave it a crater. Matrix is Very Big and I guess Lethe could sneak in and kill him directly. Doubt that the suit isnt strong enough to handle that shit at this point. Think the other members would be mostly fucked though, no current armor to help with the 88783947 poisons and radiation shit and idk if Fleet could replicate that attack to a big enough scale to fully destroy an entire town.
Nilbog is annoying bc you RLLY have to kill like EVERYTHING in that damn town
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Ellisburg isn't really that big and doing some probably very inaccurate math here, Fleet would only need a bigger vehicle which I'm sure Apeiron could provide. Or maybe Apeiron could build some sort of time stop nuke, take a page out of Bakuda's playbook, so to speak.
►WiseAss
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Lethe's suit is fully sealed. How is mere poison going to even touch her? Also, you really think THE ENIGMATIC ARTIFICER wouldn't have a few thousand different counters for the big name capes already? I mean, they could probably no-sell the poison and viruses or whatever with his bullshit healing alone. If all else fails, throw Proto Aima at Nilbog. What's a puny biotinker going to do to the ultimate predator that ever existed?
Also, they might not even need to fight. He might surrender willingly. Let Survey bat her eyelashes at him. Let's see how long he lasts.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
(Showing page 5 of 6)
►Allthetimeallthetime
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I mentioned Lethe as being able to sneak in, talking about the rest of the members here. Proto Aima is a good point though, doubt any biological stuff would work against....whatever she is.
Survey and Apeiron/Matrix/Fleet/anyone could probably build counters but on her own shes a Thinker with an unknown range. She could manipulate Nilbog I guess?
Im assuming Apeirons healing is part of his setup, since we have 0 idea how the hell any of that works. You could really just say anyone can use it to survive anything but thats not a really interesting discussion.
He has probably done some advanced poison filters though, implants maybe?
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@MojaveCourier
Something like that would definitely neutralize him as a threat.
But the result isn't really something anyone would want to see. We want that shit gone for good. Obliterated and wiped off the face of the Earth. Not preserved in it's horrifying glory for all eternity.
@Allthetimeallthetime
This could work, depending on how SUPER his nuke is. Don't forget about Nilbog's nuke-resistant super plague or whatever.
But if anyone can out-nuke a nuke-resistant plague, it'd be Apeiron.
A lot of people would be shitting their pants if he ever launched a WMD of that scale though...
Again, this could work. If she can sneak in and shank Nilbog (she definitely can if you ask me), we can wait a few years and wait for his monstrosities to expire.
But this has been a possibility even before Lethe debuted(?) so Nilbog might have something ready, just in case..
@WiseAss
This might be the best counter in my opinion. With Apeiron's support she should be pretty well-guarded from ranged attacks, and we know how nasty her Striker power is.
Even if Nilbog can bootleg some non organic trap and capture our favorite murder-mink, he can't use his power on her without getting close to her, which is a terrible idea. And of course even if she gets captured, there's the rest of CF, sooo... yeah he's gonna be fucked anyways.
I dunno bout fleet, but Matrix? Yes!
It's mildly surprising that we live on Earth-Bet and still haven't seen a giant robot level a town. And hey, this is wholesale destruction we can actually look forward to!
Hurray for giant robots!
I take back what I said about PA. This might be the perfect counter!
Just imagine, Survey just strolls in to town, dazzles the monsters into non-functionality, blows a kiss at Nilbog and the scary bio-tinker dies via bliss-overload!
►Dundunduuunnnnn
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Think we're all forgetting a angle for Apeiron to take: if he can rework other tinkertech and improve it, could he hypothetically just...steal the town/the creatures? Even if he had to do it on individuals, he could get that done in like half an hour at max if he hasnt improved (hes improved) and boom town of recently liberated monsters. Wetwork is definitely in that guys skillset at this point
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@dundunduuunnnnn
Think we're all forgetting a angle for Apeiron to take: if he can rework other tinkertech and improve it, could he hypothetically just...steal the town/the creatures? Even if he had to do it on individuals, he could get that done in like half an hour at max if he hasnt improved (hes improved) and boom town of recently liberated monsters. Wetwork is definitely in that guys skillset at this point.
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Ah yes. That is definitely what the world needs. Apeiron-style biotinker monstrosities. I didn't need to sleep tonight.
►WiseAss
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Let me do you one better. How about The Matrix style biotinker monstrosities? With Apeiron-tier weapon implants.
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
@MojaveCourier
And now I'm starting to regret saying we should get back to discussing hypothetical nightmare scenarios...
Hindsight is 20/20
Farewell my sanity, may your valiant but ultimately futile struggle against the reality of Earth-Bet never be forgotten.
@WiseAss
How about no? Let's not ruin giant mechs for me with this blasphemy.
►FINAL_COUNTDOWN
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Can the Matrix do wetwork, or tinkering in general? thought the mech was just a Breaker or similar, or if a tinker a robotics one.
Though, that is how you get another Endbringer. Leviathan sized meatmonsters made by some of the apparently most powerful tinkers on the planet....yeah i hate to say it but Nilbog is probably the better alternative
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
Yeah. I'm going to sleep before my mind gets more ideas for nightmares. Have fun discussing whatever hellish monstrosities Apeiron can make. I'll see it all tomorrow.
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I really really hope that's just a typo and you meant to say "I'll see you all tomorrow."
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(Showing page 6 of 6)
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I know what I said.
►Lord_Of_The_Whys
Replied On Apr 30th 2011:
I find it sort of nice to consider CF versus since theres always the question of 'why are these people fighting?' in the back of my mind, and for the CF it tends to be 'they wouldnt start it' or 'this is someone who absolutely deserves it'.
Anyway, this is all considering them as individuals, however they are a team. Who could face the combined might of the Forge, if anyone? We don't know half of their powers, but we've already seem some interesting power combinations with Apeiron and Proto Aima, so there are definitely some strange power interactions in the rest of the Forge.
Simple Combos with what we've seen:
Proto Aima+Kat/Ape/Fleet?: Acts as an offensive weapon and boosts everything, though is probably incredibly painful. Survey probably wouldn't get much as a Thinker, the Matrix isn't biological and she seems to have a Manton limit, and Lethe probably wouldnt get much either as the Stranger/Stealth one.
Aperion+Lethe: Functionally invisible Hell-Tech. Need I say more?
Survey+Anyone: Thinkers are demons
Fleet+Matrix:Giant robot and the guy with (at least) dimensional air strikes. I think they'd be friends
Apeiron+Survey: Specifically for their Stranger effects. Seriously, god damn.
Kat+Apeiron: Lung-killing Kat with an Apeiron level stick to hit shit with and air support.
Power interactions with Apeiron are already strange though. Back to the age old question of Boosting vs Altering.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
■
♦ Topic: Alter-Earth Fighterz 5 - Bay of Madness
In: Boards ► Video Game ► Capes
Antares_Snipe (Original Poster) (FGC YouTuber)
Posted On Apr 28th 2011:
As the topic of this thread might have suggested, I'm doing another one of my "Build a Roster" discussions to get some ideas for my next video. Specifically, this time the topic concerns a theoretical Alter-Earth Fighterz 5.
Now, I'm well aware that this series is pretty niche on Bet (in no small part because the 9 of the time were in the first game), but it is a very solid fighting game. A lot better than... pretty much every one of the PRT approved FGCs out there. That's not a high bar, mind, but hear me out.
The premise of the game is that a villainess, Cyverse, is obsessed with stress testing how well the heroes and villains of any given city can fight when in limited situations. Not the most concrete motivation in the world, but hey, it acts as a good premise for us to have a great fighting game, so meh.
The first three games have all focused on different cities, their heroes and villains, plus some guest heroes and villains from out of the city being focused on. Now, before I start things off with my usual returning characters bit, I just want to take a moment to explain the core mechanics of this game.
The A-EF series is made by Arc-Sys, which may be familiar to other FGC fans out there, as they also made both the Guilty Gear and Blazblue games. A-EF's combat system is very similar to Blazblue, with the added caveat of being a team fighter game, with three characters to a side.
All characters have a Light, Medium and Heavy attack button, as well as a Power button, which has the various Capes use their powers to their greatest extent. It uses a four bar meter system. Each character has various Specials (which can be boosted to X-Specials for one bar), Supers (which uses 2 bars) an Ultras (requiring a full meter.
That out of the way, lets get to the Returning characters, and for the A-EF series, there's really only four that has remained constant through all four previous games:
Cyverse
The main villain, of the game. Cyverse is a cyberspace Tinker who uses her tech to somehow trap select Capes into a cybernetic world, where she then forces them to fight, putting extra restrictions on them to make it more "fair". Cyverse is a very Set Up heavy character, creating and scattering traps on the stage to shut down enemy mobility and help her juggle them.
Legend
If it wasn't clear already, the rest of these will be the Triumvirate. As might be expected, Legend plays like a Zoner character. His Power button lets him shoot projectiles that follow a path depending on the directional input. He also has a quick escape special that lets him move in his breaker form for short distances.
Alexandria
Alexandria is, oddly, the Shoto of this entry. Very well rounded, and with access to projectiles when using the power button while grounded, involving tossing a bunch of ruble. In the air, Alexandria can use the power button to remain in place for extended periods, where she has access to shielded, directional rush attacks.
Eidolon
And now, the big one. For good reason, Eidolon is consistently in the top tier of this series due to his gimmick. Unlike other characters, he doesn't technically need to burn meter in order to use his X-Specials, Supers and Ultras.
Rather, he uses his meter to permanently change his Specials to X-Specials, and having the right ones unlocked will let you combo into a his Supers. Having all of them unlocked lets them combo into his Ultra.
The in-story explanation is that Eidolon has to unlock powers before he can switch to them, due to something Cyverse did. He always starts with a Combat Thinker power to use mixed martial arts, and the X-Specials he unlocks are each based off of one of the other Power classifications, with the exception of Changer and Tinker.
With that out of the way, let me give my proposal for my newest character. And if the topic title also, didn't give this away, this theoretical entry would be based in Brockton, and there's really only one choice for Cape, if we're talking Brockton Bay.
Apeiron: Apeiron is pretty much the quintessential choice in this situation. The guy's arguable Triumvirate level in terms of what he can do. I imagine Apeiron being a Stance Fighter, using his power button to go from a Rushdown with his Lantern Shield, to a Puppet Fighter with his automatons, and a Zoner with his mixtures.
Due to his medical technology, I'd also give him a healing assist.
His Supers will definitely include (what I'm pretty sure is) his fusion mode with Proto Aima, boosting all of his attacks while his meter (and possibly health?) is drained, as well as his Tripredacus bike's full power lazer blast.
I'd also give him two Utras: An even stronger transformation into his reptilian form, which locks him into a new Grappler stance, and of course, his Final Slash.
And that's all for me here. If you guys have any ideas on who would be a good pick (preferably with how you would translate their powers and skills into a 2D fighting game), or even if you disagree with my idea for Apeiron, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
(Showing page 1 of 4)
►DiAlbatross
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I think that he would have more of a 'building-up steam' mechanic as an homage to him being a Tinker and his absurd declaration of "3 days old technology." We know that Tinkers usually need boatloads of time to get heroing, but Apeiron's speed and quality of building ironically makes him a great video game character, especially in fighting games. Like, making him have this mechanic would probably the first time where the game wouldn't undersell or oversell his powerset.
►Antares_Snipe (Original Poster) (FGC YouTuber)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Interesting idea. Do you mean something like getting upgrades to his Specials whenever he fulfills certain conditions then? Maybe whenever he hits an X-Special, the next time he uses it, it's automatically the boosted version, and gets a new X-Special that's even better? Has a lot of potential to snowball, but then, so does Eidolon's gimmick.
►RandomUsername
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I mean, they could use Apeiron's actual gimmick as an ingame mechanic, that is, his commitment to contracts.
How would you translate that into a fighting game? I have absolutely no idea, as i come up with things without thinking them through.
*Edit: Grammar
►AnAngryPinecone
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Mabie you could have some sort of material acquisition mechanic? Some fighting games have destructible intractables right? Mabie make it so that every time he uses one of those he upgrades his toolkit visually and mechanically. He'd probably have to start out very underpowered, and gradually improve until he becomes basically unstoppable. Enemy ults could knock him down a level or two, and at high level low health he can do that transformation thing.
►NotATinker
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Would his specials involve his newly revealed team or would they be seperate?
►EvilToaster
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Definitely separate characters. I already picturing Lethe being agile and stealthy - as if she is invisible as long as she is not attacking - with her specials being various sword techniques. I mean cmon, if Leet's sword can make him adequate fighter surely Apeiron-grade one can make you sword master?
►VerifiedCape (Verified Cape)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
But, like, Khepri tho. Aegislash, the bug clouds, turning up against bakuda with aegislash 2.0, now on the end of a string edition? She could nearly be an alt skin for Shion TATARI tbh.
►NotATinker
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
A fellow man of culture I see…
►MysticEyes_of_DepthPerception
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Ooh, Melty Blood. I see that some of my people are here as well.
That said, much as I love the franchise, I do think that Lady Khepri would be more suited to a playstyle similar to Arakune. Having her power button summon bugs around the screen in preset patterns while she goes in for kill the up close. Could make it a fusion of both though, but that would need a lot of balancing to not make it seriously OP.
Speaking of, though, I have an idea for the two more of the Undersiders. Tattletale and Grue are sadly not included, as Tattletale... doesn't seem like the kind who'd even get into a fight, and Grue is hard by definition, cause you usually can't see wtf he does, even if the results show that he's probably at least a decent cqc fighter.
So now let's move on to my other ideas:
Hellhound: For obvious reasons, giving Hellhound her customary three dogs would be too much, so I say limit it to just one. Have her be a puppet fighter that can use the power button to either switch control to her dog on neutral, or have it make follow ups when used right after a combo or special.
Her other two dogs could be part of her Supers, and her Ultra would probably be having all three... er... dogpile the enemy. That part would probably need to be censored.
Regent: Regent, I would say, could become something like an odd mix between a zoner and puppet fighter, except his puppet is the enemy themselves. Now, of course, just having someone who can take control of the enemy character would be ridiculously OP, so how about explain it away as Cyverse nerfing him so that his power is linked to his Ape-tech taser? Have it shoot out a bolt (maybe make it so that close range ones are quick, but longer range ones are more telegraphed) that does little damage if it hits, but gives him a short time to input commands that the enemy character has to follow.
Essentially, his whole thing would be using his power to make the enemy trip over themselves in order to give him an opening to exploit with the rest of his kit. Hard to use, but when done properly, can let the player trap enemies into a situation where they have very little time to pull a reversal.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
(Showing page 2 of 4)
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I see that everybody has forgotten the local protectorate, which isn't very surprising actually...
So let me suggest Armsmaster, Miss Militia and of course, Dauntless.
Armsmaster would be a decent shoto character. He's got his halberd for close range, his halberd for long range, his halberd for anti-air attacks and his halberd/armor for burst attacks. (lol)
Can't really think of a good Super/Ultra tho. Maybe he can run over his opponent with his bike?
MM is obviously a zoner. For her Super/Ultra, she could basically do a bullet curtain or/with higher caliber weapons. I mean, obviously she's got some serious guns...
She's been seen with various types of combat knives so maybe she could have some CQC options as well.
As for Dauntless, he's got his arclance, shield, boots and armor which gives him a lot of options.
He's well rounded so he could be a shoto. He's got good CQC and the arclance can extend so he's got ranged/anti-air options as well. His boots and armor would give rushing/aeriel options as well.
He could also be a charge character which would fit well with his power. He's got his shield and armor so durability isn't an issue either.
He could also be a counter type with his shield to weather attacks and his lance to weave combos.
For all three heros, their supers could include containment foam, because come on, they're the protectorate!
Now, some people might not like this but I'm suggesting these two names anyway.
Lung and Kaiser.
Lung could be a powerful grappler/charge type with his power. He could start of normal-sized and ramp up through the fight into a bulky form (which would make him a difficult character to both master and counter). He's got plenty of fiery options for supers and his ult should of course be him going all 'Dragon of Kyushu' on his opponent.
Kaiser could do really well as a charge or a zoner character with his power.
He could also be an interesting mix-up character. (Mix-up characters usually possess numerous moves that have a similar or even identical startup animation that is then followed up by attacks that must be blocked or dodged in different ways.)
Now if we get a game with these two, and I get the chance to beat the stuffing outta them in the only way I know how, then that's totally a coincidence. Just sayin.
Also, did you think I would forget Matrix!? Well, you thought wrong!
The obvious choice for The Matrix would be zoner, because GUNS! But if we give him a lightsaber he'd do well as a shoto too. He's got jetpacks/teleporting for aerial/burst attacks or dodging and he could have missiles for ranged AOE attacks. His super could be anything from a generic giant laser beam to something like heavy artillery fire.
His ult should definitely be him firing the mother of all artillery salvos with a full-broadside of energy weapons in his Gundam-mode!
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Speaking of Apeiron, who's going to be the secret boss, the overpowered character to make you rage and isn't actually playable normally? Apeiron certainly seems worthy of the role
►SoulSurvivor
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@MojaveCourier
Oh that one is easy March!
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I think she would be hard to balance as a videogame character, even though the role would fit like a glove.
She's a thinker primarily so how would that affect into her combat style? Does she know any martial arts? We saw her with a sword but we don't know how well she can use it. What kind of Supers would she have?
Her ult is obviously going to be the OP hax dimensional attack. But compared to that, any other move she would have seems kinda lackluster...
►Antares_Snipe (Original Poster) (FGC YouTuber)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Really happy with the turnout here. Some good ideas and suggestions so far.
@AnAngryPinecone
Stages in A-EF don't typically have destructible interactables, no, but they do have a rotating stage mechanic where juggling enemies in a corner will eventually be able to break a barrier to toss the enemy into the next one. So maybe it can be changed into something like that, where Apeiron has a second meter that fills up whenever he juggles enemies in corners? Give it maybe three or four stages and make it harder and harder to fill, but every time it is, Apeiron becomes stronger. Getting hit with Supers won't knock it down, but will deplete the current gauge.
@MojaveCourier
@SoulSurvivor
@RandomBullShitGo
These are all good points, but thing is, these games have always pretty much had the "same" secret boss character in every game, in the form of Cyverse Omega. In story, it's a series of computer AIs that Cyverse creates in the hopes of creating the ultimate Cape warrior by mixing and mashing up the best parts of each fighter in the game. It typically acts as a fusion of the Triumvirate as a base, with compatible combo pieces from other fighters. Although, in this case, I wouldn't be surprised if Cyverse Omega V added Apeiron's whole build up gimmick into its own.
And yeah, I know it's non-sensical that she just doesn't copy the code of the last one or whatever, but yeah...
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Perhaps this time, Cyverse Omega could be something different. This time, it'll just copy March and Apeiron, the two big deals right now. Besides, wouldn't that be fitting? The two biggest deals right now combined to make the biggest deal.
►Antares_Snipe (Original Poster) (FGC YouTuber)
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Wouldn't work nearly as well, given how much of a threat Omega usually is. It's whole schtick centers around being unplayable. And I mean that literally. Omega, when they're fought, can pull off so many things, it would literally be impossible to create a character you can control who can also perform the same number of specials. Limiting it to just a composite of two characters... wouldn't really work.
On the topic of March though. Given her whole Thinker ability apparently being focused on timing, we could make her playstyle all about proper timing.
Make her power button into a general counter, similar to Hakumen, long recovery and all. Instead of an immediate counterattack, March just dodges out of the way while leaving one of her striker effects on the enemy that becomes a timed unlockable (obviously nerfed to be far less damaging). How long it takes to detonate, and how that detonation will effect the enemy (launcher, knockback, knockdown, blowing them towards March) can be changed by adding an input during the dodge animation.
From there, the player would need to time it properly so that they can incorporate the counterattack into a combo.
►LibraryWyrm
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
What exactly is Proto Aima's power?
We saw that they(she?) could make Apeiron faster, stronger and give him breaker effects, however, he needed his healing technology active while boosted, and when he got injured by March there was a substancial difference in how it looked, together with how March's hand exploded after touching Proto Aima, maybe she(?) Could be a grappling focused character that applied debuffs to the enemy or buffs to herself/her allies? Or maybe her gauge fills faster/she heals while grappling an enemy? I don't really have much to go here other than striker/trump.
Also i can't believe someone mentioned Dauntless and didn't factor in his power as a mechanic, having him with a meter that filled on a timer, and when the meter filled the last move he used became slightly more powerful, or something along that line.
Capes that haven't been mentioned would be the New Wave, the Wards, Triumph, Assault, Battery, Velocity, Dragon, Parian, Garment Gloves, Circus, the Merchants, the Empire, Uber and Leet, Oni lee, Bakuda, Coil(?), Faultline's Crew, the Teeth, Blasto, Rotten(?) Apple, the Travelers, the Dragonslayers and Lost Garden.
I guess Velocity's gimmick could be that you become faster on command, but would deal less damage the faster you got?
►MojaveCourier
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Assault's easy for a gimmick. His next attack does more damage everytime he gets hits. The more damage he receives, the harder he'll strike back.
►WackyWooHooPizzaMan
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
How the hell would you even translate a Stranger like Lethe or a Cape whose power obstructs vision like Grue into an fighting game?
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
(Showing page 3 of 4)
►!!!HUGE_WORM!!!
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
I guess the clouds Grue makes could appear only on your opponent view and you could see fine? But that sounds wildly unbalanced.
Other than that, Battery's gimmick would be that she gets charged up if she doesn't move for a certain amount of time, which gives her dash attacks and makes her deal more damage.
Clockblocker could have a specific imput that would make time stopped objects in the arena as an barrier/plataform or a trap.
Vista could extend or contract the space around characters or projectiles, with a minimum distance between a character and the space she wants to target?
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
@LibraryWyrm
I did though? Or at least that's what I meant when I said he could be a charge type character. He could have a gauge that slowly fills out throughout the match but rapidly fills when he's actively blocking/tanking damage, and the accumulated charge could considerably boost his next attack and slightly increase his offence/defense permanently... or something like that.
As for the capes that haven't been mentioned, Parian could be a puppet character(😂).
Don't know how Garment would fight. I've only seen a few pics of gift-wrapped thugs she left for the cops to pick up.
Faultline and travellers don't work in the bay, so again, don't know much about how they'd fight. But I guess Newter could be a cool rushdown/grappler with stuns/debuffs?
Uber/Leet/that bitchBakuda/Oni Lee are touchy subjects right now.
The teeth are similarly bad. (But the Butcher would make a great Mimic character or a Composite character with their extensive arsenal of powers.)
Lost garden's fighting prowess is usually centered around their Shakers so not sure how that'd translate into a fighting game. But Rotten Apple could be a shoto with some CQC and she could also charge her 'apples' for extra boom/debuffs I guess.
Merchants are usually too high to fight.
As for the Empire capes, Purity/Rune could be a zoner. Victor could actually be the only proper Stance character in the bay. Cricket could be another rushdown with debuffs/stuns I guess. Othala is a non combatant and Frenja/Menja is basically different skins for the same character. But I think aside from Kaiser, Hookwolf would be an interesting fighting game character. If done right, he could be an challenging grappler/rushdown with attacks that are hard to block.
...why do we have so many Nazis again??? *sigh*
Dragonslayers are budget Dragon but much less cool.
Dragon would be pretty similar to Matrix, and Flashbang wouldn't be much different from Rotten Apple, as a fighting game character.
Rest of the New Wave feels like they'd be different skins for the same character but with slightly different movesets. Panpan is obviously a non combatant.
Assult and Battery could be counter type characters that focus on combos.
Triumph could be a zoner/shoto with his wide area sonic attacks which can have extra effects like debuffs/stun/knockback/knockdown/etc. He'd actually be an interesting character.
After the Aegislash, I doubt anyone would want to see the wards fighting anytime soon... But I guess Kid win would be a good zoner, if less impressive than Miss Militia, with his pistols and that huge cannon!
Did I miss anyone?
►YHello
Replied On Apr 28th 2011:
Shadowstalker, you forgot her, Circus, Brownbeat and Flechette.
To be completely honest, i cannot see how you would fight someone like Lethe ingame, her powers would have to be extremely nerfed for that to even make sense, and how would Cyverse even catch Lethe to stick her in a simulation?
Not to mention that her power works on digital media, so she would erase all mention of her even being in the simulation at all, which now that i say it, could be worked into game lore, AEF-5 starring all the members of the Celestial Forge: Apeiron, Survey, Matrix, Kataclyzen, Fleet and Proto Aima!
Lethe? Who's that?
►EvilToaster
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@WackyWoohooPizzaMan As I literally said earlier, Lethe would be basically cyberninja that is invisible while not attacking. Its not even that OP, you could with some degree of accuracy tell her general position, its just that will obscure her telegraphs.
@Yhello counter question: how in the world Cyverse could catch Eidolon or Apeiron? Answer is: PLOT CONVENIENCE.
...am I the only one who mildly weirded to write someone else name right next to Eidolon? Anyone? Cough moving on!
►Good_Fryer
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
We know that Lethe's power erases any trace of her, but does it prevent you from noticing any new ones? You obviously can't see her, but footsteps in sand/dust?
Even if that isn't how it works then it could be used as a game mechanic
►
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
Well if you don't know something is even there and you see something like a small dust cloud your first thought would not be oh no a stranger, it probably would be oh the wind or something like that.
And also when she used her power to pickup Ape of Iron we did not even f****** wonder why we where watching nothing, we just moved on with our life until she stopped so I doubt even seeing footprints would help, also she has Apetech(TM) so she probably have something for that, just to show off.
►CasualFreak
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
IRL cape logic doesn't really apply to fighting games though, so it'd still work as a mechanic. You could just nerf her suit to have some distortions or not fully fly and it'd help her powers not be an insta-win. Yeah sure, CF is OP as hell and could beat any and all capes, but is that fun gameplay?? I think not.
►Antares_Snipe (Original Poster) (FGC YouTuber)
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
As apparently the only person who's played this series, it seems it's up to me to drop some lore:
The device(s) that Cyverse uses to trap people in her game world isn't something that needs to be aware of her target. It's basically a city wide bomb, except it doesn't really do any damage, so much as teleport key targets into the game world (and yes, I am well aware of how insensitive it may be to mention some kind of bomb going off in BB. That's why I didn't mention this fact before). Realistically, if she set it to target all Parahumans within range, as she always does, it would still take Lethe along. The moment they enter the game world, Cyverse can pretty much immediately make changes to their powers' parameters.
There are limits to this, as shown in the first game's story mode. She wanted to keep Eidolon to only having one power he could change at any given time, but couldn't do it. That said, making it so that a Stranger can still make you forget about her, but remember that you're in a fight probably falls under the realm of possibility.
Moving on from that, I do think that Lethe is a lot easier to adapt than Grue, pretty much entirely because we've seen her weapon. Even if we've never seen her actually use it (and remember), it wouldn't be too much of a cop-out to just look at the type of sword she uses and give her a standard fighting style with said sword, as we can guess that she probably has been using it for a while.
Meanwhile, there's Grue, who we also can't see, and while we're aware of his knife (I believe it's a karambit), he's also only had it for a very short time, and probably hasn't integrated it into whatever his old style was.
Also, invisible characters in fighting games have been done before. Reptile from Mortal Kombat being the most well known and well done. So there's precedent for it.
On a sidenote, the reason the Triumvirate (and until the fourth game, Myrrdin and Mouse Protector) were recurring characters is that Cyverse liked including them so much that she left a bunch of those kidnapping bombs in their respective cities keyed only to them. There's a whole comedy bit of it where Alexandria of all people bemoans the fact that it happened again, and these guys are usually good at keeping their personalities intact.
►RandomBullShitGo
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
How come nobody mentioned Lady Kephri yet? Literally every other Undersider's been mentioned, but not her? Seriously?
►HeWhoWearsShadows
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
They don't want to play the creepy bug controller? Lady Khepri did literally cut Aegis into bloody chunks on live TV, after all.
Also how about a translation of the game terms for those who haven't played the games?
End of Page. 1, 2, 3
(Showing page 4 of 4)
►MysticEyes_of_DepthPerception
Replied On Apr 29th 2011:
@RandomBullShitGo
I did make something half cooked earlier, so I might as well finish it now.
Lady Khepri: Lady Khepri, I would imagine, would be a weird sort of zoner. Taking into consideration that bugs can generally be found everywhere, rather than calling them from her location, I imagine her bringing them out from other directions off screen.
I think the perfect way to offset this so that it isn't completely OP is to have it nerfed so that she has to move her baton in a way to direct them, as well as have a gathering time. So let's say you push her power button, you'd then have to input a direction (I like the idea of using clockwise or counterclockwise half circles starting from each cardinal direction) to choose which pattern they'd go in, and the longer you hold down the button, the larger the swarm.
Holding it down for the minimum amount of time to input a direction gives a swarm that causes minimal damage (as bugs are won't to do), but doing so for, oh, three seconds, causes a miniature biblical plague that will be hard to dodge and do a lot of chip damage. This forces the enemy to either interrupt you, or have to deal with large swarms as opposed to the smaller ones.
A good enough player can spam small swarms to create multiple damage areas to zone their opponents in.
Finally, while she's best at long range, Lady Khepri would have some good options at mid range too. She'd definitely need a midrange special where she smashes her baton across the ground to shoot chunks of rubble out, and of course, would also have her sword. To compensate, make her weak at grappling range, and give her low HP by comparison.
@HeWhoWearShadows
I take it you mean the various fighting game terms that have been thrown around? Those aren't actually terms in game, so much as lingo used for fighting games in general. But okay, sure, I guess I can give an explanation. It's mostly just been archetypes, anyways.
Zoner: Characters who are strongest at long range, keeping enemies pinned down while they rain projectiles and such on them (understandably, most Blasters would pretty much fall into this category by default).
Shoto: Ignoring the history (and I'm definitely getting hell for this), these are essentially all rounder characters with a particular set of requirements. They must have a decent projectile attack (sometimes, but not always limited to when they're on the ground), good moves that can hit enemies coming in from the air, a forward moving attack that generally makes them invincible to most projectiles, and good movement speed to control the pace of the match.
Grappler: A character who excels at dealing massive damage with a single command grab (essentially a special throw attack). While difficult to land, these attacks should ideally be able to take an enemy down if you hit them 2-3 times. To compensate for this, they're generally slow and have to work to get close enough to perform said command grab.
Puppet: A character who actually uses two (or rarely more) bodies to attack. Difficult to control and use, but a master of it is equally difficult to deal with.
Set-up: These are characters who have various moves which don't do anything immediately, but can, as the name suggests, set up the stage for them to deal bigger damage. Generally, these can be interrupted, so such characters rely on getting quick, if weak takedowns very often so they have time to get ready. They can snowball very fast, and the only real defense is to snowball them back.
Gimmick: Gimmick characters are extremely diverse in what they do in detail, but what they do in general is break the usual rules of the game. Eidolon is a good example of this in the AE-F series.
Stance: Stance characters are those who can switch between different archetypes with certain button combinations. Generally, each stance will be really good at what they do, but really bad at anything else the other stances do.
Composite: A character who basically takes moves wholesale from every other character in the game, and uses them in a mishmash of horror that's difficult to really understand. Thus far, AE-F has not had one of these that was playable.
End of Page. 1, 2, 3, 4
■
[Written with the help of CorEagle's "PHO Blacksmithery - Brockton's Celestial Forge"(PHO Blacksmithery - Brockton's Celestial Forge) and the users who frequent the thread.]
@LordRoustabout please threadmark this
Last edited:
You forgot to remove these.
- Location
- Behind you
That would be cheating. The Kerbals wouldn't like that. They want to reach space through their own kind of machines.