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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Well yes.

So did the speech, since it's not like those GDI units couldn't just have opened fire and annihilated the lot of the pocketed Nod forces with minimal effort.

I'm definitely a fan of the idea that in a giant worldwide war, a lot of the people on both sides are people who, when you get right down to it, joined up for relatively banal reasons.

Nod has well over ten million people under arms, out of a recruitment base of only a billion or so to begin with, many of whom are probably too sickly or malnourished to be good recruitment material. The odds are that a fair number of them signed up because Nod feeds them, or for reasons that are at a bare minimum things they can be convinced to drop. They can't all be fanatics all the time to the point of preferring certain death while hilariously outgunned.
 
Phant0m5 said:
Okay, you do have a couple good points here. Counter-point however: Just because NOD could have all these levers for their bulk forces, doesn't mean they necessarily do, or that they're evenly applied. If a person has actual dedication to the cause, they're inherently more valuable than anyone else and thus get special training and/or privileges, IE they become a Confessor. I also noted in the omake that they had "true believers" seeded in the militia, and much like turning a protest into a riot that's all you actually need to lead a mob around by the nose. Hell, I specifically mentioned that the would-be Fanatics or Confessors were the ones who might end up with a more modern pattern laser rifle.

Second, what gave you the impression I thought militants were desperate to leave NOD? They surrendered while surrounded by tanks and power armor, all with railguns. They were still thinking about taking a few GDI with them in the seemingly inevitable last stand while the commander gave his speech. And they only decided to give up at the very end, when they'd gotten the idea that, maybe, the reasons they joined NOD in the first place could also be solved under GDI, and without being put in a situation that literally just got them surrounded by tanks.

Finally: A couple of canon omakes here literally include "we joined up because GDI didn't come to Texas" and "I left Nod for an omelet." (No shade on those omakes though, I liked them a lot.)
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That's not how a religion necessarily works. I don't need to be a high ranking member of the clergy to be devoted, nor is it necessary for me to be made a clergyman if I'm found devout in this example. Religious devotion when the end times are upon you is probably not a rare commodity, especially when you're a militant theocracy embracing and cultivating it.

Personally? I was more annoyed at the longwinded apology and the idea a CO was making a monologue while his enemies were literally getting into positions with better firing lanes. That's an attitude I think it's unrealistic for the voters to have of our own military. I think that's what suggests the obsolescence of militia in my head more than anything explicit you wrote- because GDI didn't seem to be treating them seriously once they reached the base.

The reason people join organizations, be they militaries or faiths or anything else aren't always the reason they remain. The Texans can talk a big game of fighting for Texas, but in 5 years? When the younger generation has been engaged with NOD on all levels of their life for years and recalls measurable improvement in their life when they joined NOD? They'll probably be fighting as much for the man next to them, the organization that aided them, and the faith they've probably adopted.

In general, I think the fixation that NOD got to a lot of these people because GDI failed is an over simplification- one that does both GDI and NOD a disservice. The world order collapsed, the sky fell in and the apocalypse seemingly walked the Earth. The 1st Tiberium War has most of the Yellow and Red zones being created by nations allied with/associated with NOD going to war to redress an unfavorable and oppressive status quo. None of those people are going to be happy with a GDI presence in the wake of their defeat, and the citizens of GDI's various nations weren't going to back major investment in garrisoning and providing humanitarian aid to all these former enemies when the world's ending for everyone, them included. By the time of the Second Tiberium War, GDI was working with the Forgotten even more than we currently are- considering I don't think we're giving any Forgotten proprietary plasma/laser weapons, and by then NOD's previous influence was compounded by a returned messianistic figure in an increasingly apocalyptic world feeding on their existing resentment. GDI failed to reconcile the world and provide a global defense in truth- some of this was probably do to Initiative First assholes, and the natural proclivities of the well to do to ignore the plight of outsiders. But the time to truly claim that global mantle? Was probably in the wake of the First Tiberium War, and even then it was a realistic impossibility..

Let me posit a question- how do we fight a religion who's current doctrine calls for our destruction? Not the warlords and their armies. Not the fanatics with bombs. But the every day normal people who genuinely think GDI is at fault for all of this, and that it's dissolution would make their lives better. How do we deal with all our citizens and voters who are offended by that idea, and the costs in lives and treasure it would take to dispel? How do we deal with faithful who reject our nation, having a vote in it's governance? That's the level we need to engage at to get to NOD's recruitable core. There's a million people who stood for their own Texases, their own homes and dreams. GDI's global reach is in their ability to weld disparate nations and developed territories into a unified front with shared purpose, NOD's global reach is in their ability to wed those local dreams and ambitions into it's own.

Now this has clearly spiraled beyond just a simple opinion piece on an omake, and none of this is really intended as an attack. If anything you've helped me convince myself just how big NOD is. Not in terms of armies, or the raw manpower it has available, but in terms of it's reach and scope- because I daresay it's a lot more than a few Warlords on a map. Apologies for the tangent- I'll blame the lack of sleep for this whole derailment.
 
Alright, well most of that got a "fair enough" from me, but I'm gonna contest this bit here:

Karugus said:
Personally? I was more annoyed at the longwinded apology and the idea a CO was making a monologue while his enemies were literally getting into positions with better firing lanes. That's an attitude I think it's unrealistic for the voters to have of our own military. I think that's what suggests the obsolescence of militia in my head more than anything explicit you wrote- because GDI didn't seem to be treating them seriously once they reached the base.
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Because... yeah, that was almost literally the feeling I was going for, the GDI weren't taking the militants seriously. Not necessarily because they were so obsolete - though that did play a part - but because they were so fucked in general.

Seriously, I want you to consider: you have about fifty guys in a rough blob. You are not especially spread out. You are partially encircled by railguns - and frankly, in this equation that's all that matters, but for the sake of argument some of those railguns are on tanks and some are carried by power armor. Each of those railguns are pre-sighted, and if any single one of your guys moves to point their gun anywhere but the ground they're going to be blown to hell.

And I know the C&C games aren't big on Area of Effect or Line of Sight targeting, so you tend to see even very powerful shots hit a unit and stop dead, only damaging that unit in particular, but that's just not how railguns actually work in a narrative format. Most of these guys have no protection, which means the only thing actually standing in front of all those railguns are soft, squishy targets, in roughly a "blob" formation. Under the circumstances, no railgun is going to "hit" a militant. It's going to "pass through" them, and the guy behind them, and the guy behind them.

... Yeah. The GDI weren't taking the Militants as seriously as they probably should have, for people carrying laser rifles able to punch through their zone armor. Because the entire encounter was exactly a fraction of a second from being very, very dealt with.

Some very fast hands might be able to take a GDI infantry with them, if by some miracle they weren't in somebody's crossfire during the first salvo.



As for the apologetic CO, I'll admit that's very non-standard for any kind of military position. I don't actually have a reason for that, beyond choosing to believe that not everyone we give a gun is a total sociopath who will gladly mow down desperate barely-better-than-refugees without at least trying to engage them.

He's genuinely regretful that things turned out this way for these people. He's simplifying the actual issues in his speech because he doesn't have that much room to convince them before someone does something stupid. And he's apologetic because, regardless of how you might want to talk around the issue, GDI has genuinely been a bucketful of shit to YZers for quite some time now. And unless we recruit exclusively from the Initiative First nutjobs for some reason, anyone capable of even basic empathy is going to understand that.

None of that means they wouldn't have blown the NOD guys to hell at the first sign of hostility. It just means they were looking for hostility first, instead of assuming it because they were on Team B.

Also, note: commander dude tried to call a cease-fire in the two second window when fresh Nod militants were piling out of their barracks. Everyone else was totally prepared to start shooting until that happened. The GDI soldiers were pretty consistently confused. That was all him.

One guy tried to make a difference.


And you know what? Maybe he only succeeded because the Nod Militants implicitly understood their Confessor was about to commit them all to suicide by railgun on their behalf. Maybe it's not especially idealistic, but "I'd rather not die today, thanks" is as good a reason as any to surrender in the face of overwhelming force. You're free to believe that's what happened. I don't agree, but I'm not filling that in the omake either way.



Also? Super disappointed you didn't comment on "I left Nod for an omelet", because that shit is canon, and we are all better for it.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
They can't all be fanatics all the time to the point of preferring certain death while hilariously outgunned.
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I think both the Qatari loyalists and the Mecca truce support this point. Which is why efforts to win hearts and mind are important. I am thinking we may want to drop some dice on a YZ arcology phase 2 next turn. That and for agri go 1 Entai die, 2 YZ water dice
 
I'm wondering if the actions we have taken to improve the quality of life in the Yellow Zones has affected the opinions not just of the Yellow Zoners but also the GDI troops. We know from the chat posts at the start of each update that there is an active internet community in this world, politics and social issues are discussed online and GDI military personnel participate in these discussions. We know that there has been a big deal about the program of improving the infrastructure of the Yellow Zones, and it hasn't been done in a long time. Imagine some GDI grunt in his or her early to mid twenties browsing the boards during some downtime, and sees a discussion about a Yellow Zone water filtration plant or power plant or hospital just going on line, and sees someone mention the novelty of having clean drinking water or basic medical care for the first time in literally decades.

I'm wondering if that grunt might start thinking 'No wonder they're pissed at us - we did leave them hanging and starving for so long. ..'

Derpmind said:
What if someone just doesn't like omelets though? What then? :thonk:
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Well, the fact that we've well and truly moved past the point where fungus bars are our staple food supply, and our supply situation is good enough that fresh food (even small quantities) can be shipped out to forward bases is a pretty powerful statement on its own. And people like to be on the winning side....
 
I would suggest a two-pronged strategy, on the one hand we should try to improve the material situation of the inhabitants of the Yellow Zones in order to reduce the temptations of the Brotherhood and on the other hand we should negotiate with the Brotherhood elements who are willing to negotiate with us and militarily neutralise the Brotherhood elements who are hostile to us.
The Brotherhood of Nod has posed as the patron saint of the poor and disenfranchised in order to use these desperate people as a weapon against us without the slightest interest in improving their situation, which means that we can undermine the Brotherhood and its recruitment efforts in this area, but there are also enough people who have already been born into this cult and actually believe in the Brotherhood's mission that we cannot help this group of people and these people are not interested in living in the world we are working on. Therefore it is in our interest to neutralise this part of the population as a military and political threat.
 
Karugus said:
Let me posit a question- how do we fight a religion who's current doctrine calls for our destruction? Not the warlords and their armies. Not the fanatics with bombs. But the every day normal people who genuinely think GDI is at fault for all of this, and that it's dissolution would make their lives better. How do we deal with all our citizens and voters who are offended by that idea, and the costs in lives and treasure it would take to dispel? How do we deal with faithful who reject our nation, having a vote in it's governance? That's the level we need to engage at to get to NOD's recruitable core. There's a million people who stood for their own Texases, their own homes and dreams. GDI's global reach is in their ability to weld disparate nations and developed territories into a unified front with shared purpose, NOD's global reach is in their ability to wed those local dreams and ambitions into it's own.

Now this has clearly spiraled beyond just a simple opinion piece on an omake, and none of this is really intended as an attack. If anything you've helped me convince myself just how big NOD is. Not in terms of armies, or the raw manpower it has available, but in terms of it's reach and scope- because I daresay it's a lot more than a few Warlords on a map. Apologies for the tangent- I'll blame the lack of sleep for this whole derailment.
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You deal with them through cultural warfare and demographics

It matters little if people on NOD are loyal if they are being actively poisoned by tiberium

We can leverage our improved living conditions to generate population and eventually outnumber them

Combined with propaganda and actually improving yellow zoners life standards,nod is running against the clock too and its followers will get tiberium poisoned sooner than our citizens
 
For the next four year plan, I want to go on a Yellow Zone Infrastructure Build Spree. Purification Facilities, Aquaponics Bays, Fusion Power Plants, and (Probably) Inhibitor Emitters. It will improve the security of the Terminus Cities, give progress towards the inevitable get X of Resources Plan Goals, and show that we're still committed towards the self-sufficiency of the GDI controlled Yelllow Zones.

However, one Thing that doesn't really interest me currently is the Yellow Zone Arcologies. Mostly because we already have enough housing surplus in the Yellow Zones, and the Blue Zone Arcologies is the one that is marked high priority. Even if we get another Build Arcologies Plan Goal, I would do the BZ ones first.
 
armentho said:
It matters little if people on NOD are loyal if they are being actively poisoned by tiberium
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That's a pretty big factor to consider, yeah.

Wasn't one of Nod's major points about believing in Tiberium as a source of universal power and salvation for all the faithful or something? But even then, their current tech for dealing with Tiberium doesn't seem to actually give them immunity towards the alien crystal, at least seemingly without side-effects when considering the Tiberium infusion thing they've got only meant to be used for their disposable troops.

If so, what if GDI, or specifically Dr. Granger and/or Seo does it even better than Nod, or specifically Kane, via Adaptation technology by studying the mutants, and thus create a valid way for humanity to more safely co-exist with Tiberium that isn't limited to only Nod's beliefs and doctrine? Basically, if GDI can do some of what Nod has promised to do all this time, and does it better, then wouldn't they be more willing to switch sides by thinking GDI is almost like Nod but better? It's not as if every Nod believer joined up for the same reasons right? Surely some of them can be swayed via practical benefits to life and the potential for a better future for their children.
 
marids said:
That's a pretty big factor to consider, yeah.

Wasn't one of Nod's major points about believing in Tiberium as a source of universal power and salvation for all the faithful or something? But even then, their current tech for dealing with Tiberium doesn't seem to actually give them immunity towards the alien crystal, at least seemingly without side-effects when considering the Tiberium infusion thing they've got only meant to be used for their disposable troops.

If so, what if GDI, or specifically Dr. Granger and/or Seo does it even better than Nod, or specifically Kane, via Adaptation technology by studying the mutants, and thus create a valid way for humanity to more safely co-exist with Tiberium that isn't limited to only Nod's beliefs and doctrine? Basically, if GDI can do some of what Nod has promised to do all this time, and does it better, then wouldn't they be more willing to switch sides by thinking GDI is almost like Nod but better? It's not as if every Nod believer joined up for the same reasons right? Surely some of them can be swayed via practical benefits to life and the potential for a better future for their children.
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yeah studying tiberium adaptation can actually help to subvert NOD propaganda,and we will likely to research at some point,because the forgotten

we need to improve the forgotten organism so they can live long lives on normal enviroments as well on tiberium contaminated ones,otherwise the other options is containing them on porpusefully contaminated ghettos that fit their metabolism or leave them to die and the final option is leaving on segregation with some colonies being yellow zones and others being blue zones

neither option attracts me so i want to support some tiberium adaptation research to ensure the forgotten can co-exist with the GDI goal of cleaning the earth
 
Karugus said:
The reason people join organizations, be they militaries or faiths or anything else aren't always the reason they remain. The Texans can talk a big game of fighting for Texas, but in 5 years? When the younger generation has been engaged with NOD on all levels of their life for years and recalls measurable improvement in their life when they joined NOD? They'll probably be fighting as much for the man next to them, the organization that aided them, and the faith they've probably adopted.
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Yes, which means we have about five years to choose whether or not to move more into the Yellow Zones and show people that we're expanding the Blue Zones, or even shrinking the Red Zones back into Yellow Zones. More investments into more cities, more blue zones, etc. For example, having GDI concentrate on a continent, South America, for example, and both remove the NOD presence there and the Tiberium, will both be a monumental task and one that will take time and a lot of resources. It was talked about earlier in the thread, but securing a bunch of sizable islands, like Madagascar, so that we have completely secure Blue Zones that we can not worry about green rock.

The big issue I see is that we will lose a lot of the PR game due to playing it smart. For example, taking back North America, logically and strategically, will require expanding the land between the Eastern Blue Zone and Chicago, which means expanding around what was the Northeastern US and Southeastern Canada. That still leaves the giant red zone between them and what was the rest of the country. This gives time for NOD to corrupt people in Texas and elsewhere, because they're too far for us and we don't want to make an open target by settling in New Orleans by itself while we're still building up our Navy and worried about NOD reprisal.
 
Void Stalker said:
I think both the Qatari loyalists and the Mecca truce support this point. Which is why efforts to win hearts and mind are important. I am thinking we may want to drop some dice on a YZ arcology phase 2 next turn. That and for agri go 1 Entai die, 2 YZ water dice
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Not a bad idea, but we also need to take the political landscape into consideration.

If we go with YZ arco, the Initiative First morons will have a rallying cry to get more votes next election (REEEEEEEE, HANDOUTS!!!) and I don't know about you, but I don't want them to get more votes. So, in order to shut them up, we would likely need to go with a system where, for every die we put on YZ arco, we put a die on BZ arco. If we give the same funding to both, that will hopefully shut them up or at least just make them background noise. That a YZ arco is finished faster, well, that's such a shame, isn't it? :whistle:

Moreover, that would advance us on the BZ arcos. If the last round of political demands is any reference, the politicos will demand another stage as part of the next plan. If we are able to knock that particular problem at the beginning of the next plan, it will, overall, be less of a headache for our future projects.

We aren't hurting for housing or consumer goods anymore, so we can afford to take it slow and make a commitment of, let's say, 2 dice (1 YZ arco, 1 BZ arco) when we can to advance it.

Other YZ projects effectively "put Yellowzoners to work for the GDI" so they are less problematic regarding the Initiative First thorn in our side.
 
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Screw IF, they are gonna whine and complain on literally every action we do, no amount of appeasement beside doing everything they say will make them(reversing everything outside of blue zones) will stop them, So I say ignore them and keep doing what best for the GDI(including yellow zones and blue zones) and build those yellow zone arcologies
 
Woltaire said:
Screw IF, they are gonna whine and complain on literally every action we do, no amount of appeasement beside doing everything they say will make them(reversing everything outside of blue zones) will stop them, So I say ignore them and keep doing what best for the GDI(including yellow zones and blue zones) and build those yellow zone arcologies
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Where have I spoken of appeasement? The hill that the IF is ready to die on at the moment is the improvement of housing in BZs. If we do YZ arcos, an improvement of housing in YZs, but leave the BZ arcos without funding, that message gets more wind in its sails. They get more justified, then will get more votes next election and will have more political clout to pass their demands.

You want IF to die? Do the same thing we did for the FMP: give them what they want in a manner that benefits us without making it seem like they won.

In this case: They want improved housing in the BZ right now? The way to fuck them up is to have a GDI-wide housing improvement program involving BZ and YZ.
 
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By getting YZ'ers to join GDI they become voters who will ever ore diminish IF and FMP influence on the GDI's direct-electronic-democracy people's congress parliament.
 
Cathon Grimeye said:
You want IF to die? Do the same thing we did for the FMP: give them what they want in a manner that benefits us without making it seem like they won.
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The thing is that we cannot we give them what they want as they want the Blue Zones to funded at the expense of the Yellow Zones and the people living in them. Poor housing is just their latest specific complaint and dealing with it won't weaken them or make them go away because it isn't really what they and their core supporters care about. It is just their latest dog whistle that happens to have some truthful basis to draw unsuspecting people in and disguise their true complaint.
 
It should be noted that unlike most democracies, we have a case where the state's actions can fairly directly add an entire new category of voters. Expansion into the Yellow Zones gives us a growing voter bloc that actively opposes Initiative First and weakens them directly.
 
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