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A Song Of Peace: Imperial Regent Quest [40k]

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JevvyPython said:
Even if it takes time to mature the void of the Inquisition still seems like the best place to plug the buffed up Telepathica.
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I've made this point before, but this is a terrible idea. One of our primary goals is to make psykers less feared and distrusted. Making them the replacement for the Inquisition will do the exact opposite. The last thing psykers need is to also be suspected by default of being moles for the intelligence service. And then on the flip side, because psykers are currently feared and distrusted, making them the Nuquisition will also guarantee more pushback against our Nuquisition than literally any other choice. It's a bad idea from every angle.

It is true that the replacement for the Inquisition will have a lot of use for psykers' abilities, just like the original-flavor Inquisition did. And psykers can be seconded to them on an as-needed or ongoing basis as may be advisable to fill those roles, just like with every other Imperial institution that has a use for psykers' unique capabilities. Which is a lot of them, because the range of things psykers can help with is quite broad, which is also another reason not to monofocus the Telepathica on a single role that is not per se based on being psykers - at absolute best that will split their institutional focus between that and being psykers/advancing psykers/etc. in a way that is not ultimately helpful to either aspect.

Regarding the broader kerfuffle over exactly how to split our AP for next turn, I just think it's silly to get sucked this deep into arguing over it before we even see what our full spread of options and our updated intelligence for next turn will be. Every turn so far has included something we needed to react to and manage, and there's no reason to assume next turn will be any different. So getting too far into the weeds on this before we even know all the factors we'll need to consider just seems like wasted effort to me.

I will say that as important as Telepathica reform is, the Eldar diplomacy thing is a major, high-stakes, volatile project that we have staked a large amount of our personal credibility on with both the Imperium and the Eldar and that is still very far from completed or secured. Backburnering that to a secondary priority in order to start another major project at the same time feels like a mistake to me, but I'm not interested in discussing it more deeply than that until we actually know all the factors we'll need to weigh for the next turn.
 
Fayhem said:
Regarding the broader kerfuffle over exactly how to split our AP for next turn, I just think it's silly to get sucked this deep into arguing over it before we even see what our full spread of options and our updated intelligence for next turn will be. Every turn so far has included something we needed to react to and manage, and there's no reason to assume next turn will be any different. So getting too far into the weeds on this before we even know all the factors we'll need to consider just seems like wasted effort to me.
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This. Lets begin the Battle Royal after we now all the participants.
 
Finally caught up.
Swordomatic said:
Without the consumption of Psykers, we will need somewhere to shunt the newfound unstable students. Administrative taskings, minor roles. Work will need to be done."
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...Once the Edict of Nikea is repealed (or even before), I wonder if this can be exploited as part of a strategy to bring some or all of the Thousand Sons to our side? Something like "Prospero was a crown jewel of the Imperium. Enlightened and peaceful and self sufficient worlds centered around learning are everything an inhabited planet should be, and I have nothing against psykers. Honestly, I'd have tried to save you and your world had I the opportunity - Tzeentch had too much attention on the world and too many daemons surrounding its warp reflection for me to slip in and do anything. With all these extra psykers we have now, it seems like a good opportunity to rebuild Prospero - or colonize a world to be its successor. Pity I have no idea how to reproduce Prospero's former culture."

The offer'd be a carrot and stick (and both a reward and a punishment) at once: I'm going to rebuild Prospero /found New Prospero with or without you. Any Thousand Sons that want to ensure some level of cultural or academic continuity between Old Prospero and New Prospero (rather than it being a poor knock off) have a standing offer to betray/leave (what's the right word here?) Tzeentch and pledge fealty to us. We obviously can't not punish them for their crimes against humanity since devoting themselves to Chaos, but the punishment would sort of be a reward for returning to the Imperium in its own right: They must drop every bit of Chaos lore and sorcerous rites that Tzeentch taught them - and return to how they were (minus the Tutelaries) before the burning of Prospero - so that we can put them to work rebuilding and teaching and safeguarding* an enlightened world intended as a sanctuary for psykers in the image of old Prospero. Which is itself one of the big carrots that Tzeentch has been dangling in front of them for the past 10 millennia. (they'd also be forbidden from fighting the Space Wolves and any who engage in human sacrifice or Chaos rituals or otherwise try to inject Tzeentchian corruption into [New?] Prospero would be executed, but that goes without saying).

The other carrot aside from being included in the rebuilding of Prospero would of course be help with undoing the Rubric (personally or via some Black Library related favor from Cegorach), but that really just falls under the mandate 'being good and helping people (i.e. the Rubricae) for the sake of being good and helping people'.

*this may still be included even if we also punish them by demanding they forgo all non-defensive warfare to embrace a life of monastic scholarship - which again, was what the legion intended to do after the Great Crusade was over , and which those who'd returned to Prospero after Nikea had already started doing until the Burning, anyway.
 
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So hypothetically if we allowed the Fraternis Militia to reform would Abbess Alicia, as head of the Sortias and the senior military commander of the Ecclesiarchy, be their commander by default? She's a young reformer who helped to end the Xenos genocides so that's an attractive prospect. She's more trustworthy than the secular Guard and Navy commanders.

Fayhem said:
I've made this point before, but this is a terrible idea. One of our primary goals is to make psykers less feared and distrusted. Making them the replacement for the Inquisition will do the exact opposite. The last thing psykers need is to also be suspected by default of being moles for the intelligence service. And then on the flip side, because psykers are currently feared and distrusted, making them the Nuquisition will also guarantee more pushback against our Nuquisition than literally any other choice. It's a bad idea from every angle.
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We definitely shouldn't make it Psykers-only, just staff it with as many cult of sacrifice Psykers as we can so the secret police are on our team.

The public perception is going to need to be carefully managed but the kind of fear is the real issue. Right now people fear Psykers because they're unstable and dangerous, they gibber, hear things that aren't there and if they have an 'incident' they can kill everyone around them horribly. It's random and just being around them is bad.

If Imperial Governors and Commanders start fearing the Lord Commander's mind-reading agents might come for them if they do something terrible but they can avoid that by not being awful that can be a good thing. We can deter most people from gunning down striking mutant slaves or nuking the xenos of Peacenick VII while staying in power and removing the worst 10% of them. If big chunks of the Imperium start fearing our reforms as devastating for their interests long term then that fear is the kind of thing that causes a civil war.

If we just so happen to, say, put Mona in charge of the Nuquisition and tell her to recruit aggressively from the Cult of Sacrifice Telepathica and people start seeing lots of well trained, lucid and sane, Psykers fanatically loyal to the Lord Commander in the ranks I expect that would be seen as a major powergrab but not necessarily an issue of terrifying Psykers taking power. Especially if we're able to push the propaganda line that the Inquisition killed an Imperial Heir with the help of a cooperative Ecclesiarch to get more breathing room to stack it with loyalists.

Fayhem said:
I will say that as important as Telepathica reform is, the Eldar diplomacy thing is a major, high-stakes, volatile project that we have staked a large amount of our personal credibility on with both the Imperium and the Eldar and that is still very far from completed or secured. Backburnering that to a secondary priority in order to start another major project at the same time feels like a mistake to me, but I'm not interested in discussing it more deeply than that until we actually know all the factors we'll need to weigh for the next turn.
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It would be nice to get all the bells and whistles but repealing Nikea and getting Psyker-Commandos only costs a Favor or Influence, not time, and the basic Discipline reform only takes one year. We can squeeze the basics in pretty easily unless we NEED the Emperor's help with a terrible crisis.
 
Shadaki said:
Finally caught up.

...Once the Edict of Nikea is repealed (or even before), I wonder if this can be exploited as part of a strategy to bring some or all of the Thousand Sons to our side? Something like "Prospero was a crown jewel of the Imperium. Enlightened and peaceful and self sufficient worlds centered around learning are everything an inhabited planet should be, and I have nothing against psykers. Honestly, I'd have tried to save you and your world had I the opportunity - Tzeentch had too much attention on the world and too many daemons surrounding its warp reflection for me to slip in and do anything. With all these extra psykers we have now, it seems like a good opportunity to rebuild Prospero - or colonize a world to be its successor. Pity I have no idea how to reproduce Prospero's former culture."

The offer'd be a carrot and stick (and both a reward and a punishment) at once: I'm going to rebuild Prospero /found New Prospero with or without you. Any Thousand Sons that want to ensure some level of cultural or academic continuity between Old Prospero and New Prospero (rather than it being a poor knock off) have a standing offer to betray/leave (what's the right word here?) Tzeentch and pledge fealty to us. We obviously can't not punish them for their crimes against humanity since devoting themselves to Chaos, but the punishment would sort of be a reward for returning to the Imperium in its own right: They must drop every bit of Chaos lore and sorcerous rites that Tzeentch taught them - and return to how they were (minus the Tutelaries) before the burning of Prospero - so that we can put them to work rebuilding and teaching and safeguarding* an enlightened world intended as a sanctuary for psykers in the image of old Prospero. Which is itself one of the big carrots that Tzeentch has been dangling in front of them for the past 10 millennia. (they'd also be forbidden from fighting the Space Wolves and any who engage in human sacrifice or Chaos rituals or otherwise try to inject Tzeentchian corruption into [New?] Prospero would be executed, but that goes without saying).

The other carrot aside from being included in the rebuilding of Prospero would of course be help with undoing the Rubric (personally or via some Black Library related favor from Cegorach), but that really just falls under the mandate 'being good and helping people (i.e. the Rubricae) for the sake of being good and helping people'.

*this may still be included even if we also punish them by demanding they forgo all non-defensive warfare to embrace a life of monastic scholarship - which again, was what the legion intended to do after the Great Crusade was over , and which those who'd returned to Prospero after Nikea had already started doing until the Burning, anyway.
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The problem with the Thousand Sons is that even the most sympathetic of them are ten thousand year old Chaos Marines, which means they will have committed truly monstrous things in the service of Chaos. Now our Imperial allies are no strangers to being monsters, but crucially they are not at the behest of dark gods who own their souls. Any plan to get the Thousand Sons on board should IMO start with a means of freeing their souls, a way to weed out those who are just going to sell them beck because Chaos is fun and finish a way to keep the secret. There is no way the Imperial Faith or the population at large would agree to them being reintegrated as they are now.
 
From what I understand, the Thousand Sons are mostly empty suits of power armour being animated by a cabal of sorcerers who survived Ahriman's Rubric. As far as Traitor Marines go, you'd probably have an easier time with the Iron Warriors warbands who aren't really into Chaos and were mostly just trying to survive in the materium like Kalkator's warband.
 
JevvyPython said:
So hypothetically if we allowed the Fraternis Militia to reform would Abbess Alicia, as head of the Sortias and the senior military commander of the Ecclesiarchy, be their commander by default? She's a young reformer who helped to end the Xenos genocides so that's an attractive prospect. She's more trustworthy than the secular Guard and Navy commanders.
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Alicia would remain Abbess Sanctorum of the Sororitas, while the senior partner has a peer in the Abbess Prioris, who is based on Ophelia VII and is notionally Alicia's second-in-command, but the two positions are equal officially. The Frateris Templar would be reestablished as a formal branch of the Ecclesiarchy, with its own command structure and its own leadership, likely to be chosen from Cardinals of the Ministorum or suitably faithful or zealous Imperial Guard officers.

There is a way to ensure that Alicia becomes Commander-in-Chief of the Frateris Templar too, but it involves re-establishing the Frateris Templad as a branch of the Adeptus Sororitas, which is unlikely to happen - honestly the opposite is more likely - unless Pandora gets involved in the matters of the church. But then that will require her to get involved in the debate and resolve once and for all the question of her own place in the Imperial Faith's Canon.
 
Swordomatic said:
There is a way to ensure that Alicia becomes Commander-in-Chief of the Frateris Templar too, but it involves re-establishing the Frateris Templad as a branch of the Adeptus Sororitas, which is unlikely to happen - honestly the opposite is more likely - unless Pandora gets involved in the matters of the church. But then that will require her to get involved in the debate and resolve once and for all the question of her own place in the Imperial Faith's Canon.
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Is there any hope of being able to go 'okay Emperor is God of Humanity, I'm heir and Goddess of Selfless Sacrifice'? I don't actually know much about IF Canon. Does anyone?
 
Shane_357 said:
Is there any hope of being able to go 'okay Emperor is God of Humanity, I'm heir and Goddess of Selfless Sacrifice'? I don't actually know much about IF Canon. Does anyone?
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It's iffy on how they would react on the idea of her being a child of the god emperor and a god In her own right.

Nether of those things are exclusive persay, but the theological implication that Pandora doesn't get all her divine authority though the Big E, but actually has some In her own right, is problematic when it comes to her claiming to represent his will, because as a god in her own right, she has her own will: and puts Into question a lot of the fundamental doctrine.

Is the cult of sacrifice a off-shoot of the imperial cult, or a different cult connected by 'pantheon'. Is that ok?

Are the other children gods to? Do they get their own cults? If not why? Want makes her different?

It's the kind of thing that the layman won't really care about, but the top brass very much will.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Nether of those things are exclusive persay, but the theological implication that Pandora doesn't get all her divine authority though the Big E, but actually has some In her own right, is problematic when it comes to her claiming to represent his will, because as a good in her own right, she has her own will: and puts Into question a lot of the fundamental doctrine.


It's the kind of thing that the layman won't really care about, but the top brass very much will.
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Maybe bringing forth some of the Imperials who ended up 'going' to her for their deeds might help? I'm trying to aim for 'I have both descent from the God Emperor and an inheritance of His light, as well as my own Throne as a Goddess, gained in an act of defeating the Great Enemy when they sought to steal His Firstborn'. Luckily Pandora's Throne of 'Sacrifice' is an easy sell to the martyr-happy Ecclesiarchy.
 
Shane_357 said:
Is there any hope of being able to go 'okay Emperor is God of Humanity, I'm heir and Goddess of Selfless Sacrifice'? I don't actually know much about IF Canon. Does anyone?
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I can imagine it going this is heresy exterminate cause well most inquisitionors are fing idiots (looks at months of shame, the time they grew a gene stealer cult and what they did to the sensei cause they claimed descent from the emperor) so claiming to be a goddess is a big no no
 
Unfortunately, attempting to proclaim Pandora as a goddess with her own authority on top of her "borrowed" divine authority from the Emperor? It runs into one of the core tenets of the Ecclesiarchy. And so trying to push Pandora's status as a goddess through in positive light, in the current state of things, wouldn't go well at all. We will need at least massive amounts of prepwork for such a thing to succeed.

Imperial Cult - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

wh40k.lexicanum.com wh40k.lexicanum.com
The Imperial Creed is highly flexible and is tailored by Missionaries to fit the native culture, religion, and practices of whatever world it exists upon. As such, practices adhered to on one world may be held as abhorrent on another. The Ministorum tolerates this vast range of practices and beliefs, as it would be impossible to maintain a complete standardization of the faith across the Imperium.

However, the Ecclesiarchy does enforce basic key tenets[3]​:
  • The Emperor once walked among men, but He is, and always has been, a god.
  • The Emperor is the one true god, regardless of what past faiths any human may have worshipped.
  • To purge the heretic, beware the psyker and mutant, and abhor the alien.
  • Every human being has a place within the Emperor's divine order.
  • To unquestionably obey the authority of the Imperial government and one's superiors.
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Thanatosra said:
I can imagine it going this is heresy exterminate cause well most inquisitionors are fing idiots (looks at months of shame, the time they grew a gene stealer cult and what they did to the sensei cause they claimed descent from the emperor) so claiming to be a goddess is a big no no
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Fortunately, the Inquisition is rapidly ceasing to become a concern :V
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
It's iffy on how they would react on the idea of her being a child of the god emperor and a god In her own right.

Nether of those things are exclusive persay, but the theological implication that Pandora doesn't get all her divine authority though the Big E, but actually has some In her own right, is problematic when it comes to her claiming to represent his will, because as a god in her own right, she has her own will: and puts Into question a lot of the fundamental doctrine.

Is the cult of sacrifice a off-shoot of the imperial cult, or a different cult connected by 'pantheon'. Is that ok?

Are the other children gods to? Do they get their own cults? If not why? Want makes her different?

It's the kind of thing that the layman won't really care about, but the top brass very much will.
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What makes her different was that she robbed Tzeench, though we cannot say that.... though thinking about that could we get the Emperor to decree it? @Swordomatic would an imperial favor be enough to have the Enthroned basically drop a truth bomb on his cult so we can legalize the Cult of Sacrifice?

It does not feel very likely to me, but I thought I'd ask just to be sure .
 
DragonParadox said:
What makes her different was that she robbed Tzeench, though we cannot say that.... though thinking about that could we get the Emperor to decree it? @Swordomatic would an imperial favor be enough to have the Enthroned basically drop a truth bomb on his cult so we can legalize the Cult of Sacrifice?

It does not feel very likely to me, but I thought I'd ask just to be sure .
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Why would a tyrant god do that?
I guess if we really used up Emp favour, he might do it. But it's not something a good would do easily.
 
in that regard. imagine what would happen if he's pissed and decides to respond by fucking with that favor/decree.
 
achus93 said:
in that regard. imagine what would happen if he's pissed and decides to respond by fucking with that favor/decree.
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I'm not sure if he is willing to fuck with the decrees that he has made himself without a Favor, especially so soon afterwards. Because that would imply that he was wrong in making those decrees, even if they were only made because Pandora twisted his arm about them. Unlike the Deva Legions and his Exalted who he can just easily recall to do more stuff in the Warp, or tormenting Guilliman to get to Pandora, it really just doesn't seem like something he would do.

Most likely, he would find other ways to make Pandora's life miserable, or just extract some vows to accomplish something that he wants ASAP. Not just jumping back and forth with his decrees.
 
DragonParadox said:
What makes her different was that she robbed Tzeench, though we cannot say that.... though thinking about that could we get the Emperor to decree it? @Swordomatic would an imperial favor be enough to have the Enthroned basically drop a truth bomb on his cult so we can legalize the Cult of Sacrifice?
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Why would a tyrant god do that?
I guess if we really used up Emp favour, he might do it. But it's not something a good would do easily.
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@meianmaru is right on the money with the theological problems in the Imperial Cult. This isn't Warhammer Fantasy where polytheism is the norm. This is Space Fascist Catholicism... only there is no role for a Jesus. Seriosuly, not even the Primarchs get the same level of trust and authority as Big E, because The God-Emperor isn't supposed to have a succession.

Pandora, Guilliman, every kid of The Emperor is just a junior partner who only gets their authority from their father. And when they move beyond that authority into things purely serving their own interests, people push back. Fundamentally, the Cult of Sacrifice and the whole Goddess Of Sacrifice is incompatible with the Ecclesiastical lie at the heart of the Imperium. Even Space Marines fit in better than we do, and pre-Great Rift the Imperium was gearing up to purge quite a number of them. We either just get better at telling the lie we've already been telling, that we're "Saints", part of the Emperor's Deva power structure, or we go for the truth and accept we'll now have to deal with worlds rising up in revolt under raving Cardinals and Ministers who call us a Heretic. Which we are, under their rules.

Bite the bullet and give the Inquisition an extra source of manpower and PR, or really step in Malcador's shoes by embracing something against our principles for a leg up against the enemy.
 
also remember their cult is based of what Lorgar used to believe and has a word bearer droughtnaught as the true leader in other words zealots
 
Always Late said:
@meianmaru is right on the money with the theological problems in the Imperial Cult. This isn't Warhammer Fantasy where polytheism is the norm. This is Space Fascist Catholicism... only there is no role for a Jesus. Seriosuly, not even the Primarchs get the same level of trust and authority as Big E, because The God-Emperor isn't supposed to have a succession.

Pandora, Guilliman, every kid of The Emperor is just a junior partner who only gets their authority from their father. And when they move beyond that authority into things purely serving their own interests, people push back. Fundamentally, the Cult of Sacrifice and the whole Goddess Of Sacrifice is incompatible with the Ecclesiastical lie at the heart of the Imperium. Even Space Marines fit in better than we do, and pre-Great Rift the Imperium was gearing up to purge quite a number of them. We either just get better at telling the lie we've already been telling, that we're "Saints", part of the Emperor's Deva power structure, or we go for the truth and accept we'll now have to deal with worlds rising up in revolt under raving Cardinals and Ministers who call us a Heretic. Which we are, under their rules.

Bite the bullet and give the Inquisition an extra source of manpower and PR, or really step in Malcador's shoes by embracing something against our principles for a leg up against the enemy.
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Option 3: do it after we have entrenched Pan enough that pushback is blunted.

Like, right now Pan has barely done any political actions, Grey knights are why to under the radar to count.

Legalising the cult of sacrifice now is a bad idea, after Pan is all but made a god on the other side of the rift? After she has most of the public on her side? The marines?

Maybe a bit more practical.

What I'm saying is we don't know the way the wind will blow once we get further along.
 
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