Seeing Red [Naruto]

uju32 · Apr 16, 2017

Asael said:
Who said anything about blocking?. I just want to be sure we have a way to deal with it before we end up fighting either of them. I don't really care how, frankly, and it seems unlikely we'll be able to avoid them all together. Or are you hoping we can gank them before they flatten everything?.

When Nagato used Chibaku Tensei against Naruto? No defense.

The first time he went Eight Tails to outlast it.
The second time it took Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto, Eight Tails Killer Bee AND Edo Itachi shooting at the technique to disrupt it.
If a technique requires 3 S-class ninja including the two most powerful jinchuuriki in history to stop it, you should not be trying to block it.

You don't match power to power against techniques like that; you go around.
You genjutsu the guy using it, or space-time warp the technique away, or leave the area.

Asael said:
And the fact that Tobi's technique has offensive uses isn't really the point. He survived shit no one has any business surviving because he had a potent defense. Fact of the matter is, team 7 has been singled out by incredibly powerful people, so having an emergency defense if we get blindsided would be nice. I'm not asking for miracles, but these are things we legitimately have to think about, because it seems very likely we'll be facing them.

This is wrong.
Tobi survived because he had a superlative medical establishment behind him, including the prep work of one of the greatest of all time and the secret agent of the Bunny Ear Goddess. Else he would have died in Konoha the very first time he went to raise shit, and the Yellow Flash planted a fuckhuge Rasengan in his back.

If the Yondaime hadn't had to go back because of the rampant Kyuubi, he would have murked him right there and then; Hiraishin seal on his body means he'd never be able to get away.

No defense to that, just the biomodifications engineered by Madara with Hashirama's body as a base and forty-plus years of experimentation.
And after that he still had to go back and get rebuilt.
Or after Kakashi blew a foot-wide hole in his torso, which he ALSO walked off.

EDIT
Or him surviving getting Amaterasu'd by Sasuke by apparently blowing a Sharingan on Izanagi.
Or surviving Konan's explosion lake by doing the same thing.
Neither is some demonstration of defense, just that Sugar Daddy Madara and Black Zetsu gave him the debit card to the Sharingan bank so he could spend as necessary.

Asael · Apr 16, 2017

azoicennead said:
So... A way to quickly remove ourselves from the impact zone? Like, say, Shunshin?

Wow, I would never have thought that!, good thing we can abandon our family to run away from a very fast city crusher!.

What is even the range of shunshin?.

Just so we're clear, I'm not shilling one way or the other for this vote, because I was resigned on that hours ago. I'm talking about future plans because we're inevitably going to be hip deep in shit without a shovel.

@uju32 So what your saying is, if and or when we fight Madara , Tobi, Rabbit goddess, Paine, ect. Our only options are to be a mad scientist, spontaneously develop the tankiness of an Uzumaki jinchuriki, or be fast enough to kill the enemy before they can attack?. Sounds like we're screwed, frankly.

Well, fuck it. Seems like the only real defense is plot armor so I guess I must cede this argument.

uju32 · Apr 16, 2017

Asael said:
@uju32 So what your saying is, if and or when we fight Madara , Tobi, Rabbit goddess, Paine, ect. Our only options are to be a mad scientist, spontaneously develop the tankiness of an Uzumaki jinchuriki, or be fast enough to kill the enemy before they can attack?. Sounds like we're screwed, frankly.
Well, fuck it. Seems like the only real defense is plot armor so I guess I must cede this argument.

Or be fast enough to dodge the attack.
Which is why we're stacking Shunshin, and aiming eventually for Sage Mode to boost that.
And maybe stack a Mangy Eye on top, if we find a spirit sugar daddy handing out free powerups.

Nothing will defend you against the top tier of techniques; this is pretty much a law of Naruto.

All-Killing Ash Bones, for example, gives no shits about your defenses; it will kill you regardless if it touches you.
Tsunade can outright break a Perfect Susanoo with main strength. The Sage Tools will seal your ass if you talk too much.
The Sword of Totsuka outright removed Edo!Nagato and Curse Seal Orochimaru and put them both in a bottle.

You don't try to defend when you see shit like that coming.
You have to not be there when they hit, or prevent them being used.
And don't rely on active defenses; someone will always come up with a way to bust them.

Dark as Silver · Apr 16, 2017

azoicennead said:
Remember how you were touting Tobi as an example of the value of bullshit-level defensive abilities? Do you remember how Kakashi held his own against Tobi?

By getting inside of the dimension Obito stuffed things into thereby preventing him from using the insane defensive technique?
As flaws go that's a kind of hard to exploit one don't you think?

Asael · Apr 16, 2017

@uju32 I'm not entirely convinced that we can get fast enough to escape a shockwave traveling at the speed of sound baring FTG, but I guess we don't have much in terms of options.

Vindictus · Apr 16, 2017

uju32 said:
To a Rinnegan user.
If it takes a Rinnegan user to threaten us, I'd be well pleased.

I mean, that'd be all well and good, if it wasn't for the fact that a Rinnegan user was part of the stable full of bullshit OP enemies we've got waiting for us...

Morphic Tide · Apr 16, 2017

uju32 said:
All-Killing Ash Bones, for example, gives no shits about your defenses; it will kill you regardless if it touches you.

There's probably stuff to work around that, but it's probably only inherent immunity to such things and actively mimicking the properties responsible for such. Like, I doubt that that technique could actually kill Chakra-entities, like the Bijuu, but short of being fundamentally immune to whatever the hell it does, you ain't getting through a hit from it.

Personally, I subscribe to the idea that it's a Sage Art using Fire elemental chakra. Instead of turning the target into stone with a hostile Sage Chakra infusion, it adds in some Fire so that you are turned to ash instead. Much harder to recover from being reduced mostly to ash, even if you can stop the transmutation. Largely because the stuff transmuted isn't attached anymore, so you can't reverse it.

And if this is the case... Well, Kimimaro can probably recreate it. Which is terrifying. Because there'd be nothing stopping him from making his spiky bone armor and spiky bone forest do the same thing. And the Hyuuga could probably benefit from hostile Sage Chakra infusions, if they could pull it off. Much quicker than the 8 Trigrams, 64 Palms. One poke, the other guy starts turning to stone.

Mellodi · Apr 16, 2017

UberJJK said:
I just think the opportunity cost of DBR is worth it.

I don't understand where you came to this conclusion, if you choose DBR, yes you dodge like a boss but what use is that if you can't attack the person that's requiring you to dodge so hard, I don't see the long term benefits of DBR at all, Hisana can only get better at coping and fighting with the speed, which implies dodging, I'm not seeing how so many people are advocating for one half of a whole

Akasha · Apr 16, 2017

Morphic Tide said:
There's probably stuff to work around that, but it's probably only inherent immunity to such things and actively mimicking the properties responsible for such. Like, I doubt that that technique could actually kill Chakra-entities, like the Bijuu, but short of being fundamentally immune to whatever the hell it does, you ain't getting through a hit from it.

Personally, I subscribe to the idea that it's a Sage Art using Fire elemental chakra. Instead of turning the target into stone with a hostile Sage Chakra infusion, it adds in some Fire so that you are turned to ash instead. Much harder to recover from being reduced mostly to ash, even if you can stop the transmutation. Largely because the stuff transmuted isn't attached anymore, so you can't reverse it.

And if this is the case... Well, Kimimaro can probably recreate it. Which is terrifying. Because there'd be nothing stopping him from making his spiky bone armor and spiky bone forest do the same thing. And the Hyuuga could probably benefit from hostile Sage Chakra infusions, if they could pull it off. Much quicker than the 8 Trigrams, 64 Palms. One poke, the other guy starts turning to stone.

To be fair, I don't think Kimimaro has anywhere near enough Chakra OR Chakra Control for that.
Especially if he wasn't cured of his terminal sickness. I mean, let's analyze this.

Kaguya is the source of Chakra. She IS Chakra. Her control over it is absolute. If it's possible with Chakra, she can do it without a single hand-seal. She casually tosses stuff that would take the likes of Tobirama and Minato to do with months - if not years - of preparation, Fuinjutsu research and experimentation. She also has the Byakugan, which she claims is stronger than Hamura's, who is the very source of the Hyuuga bloodline. Hell, she also has the Sharinnegan on her forehead, which is open at the same time as her Byakugan. All of that stuff I just enumerated has terrifying synergy, so it makes sense that she can put her Chakra into a bone, shoot it, and then control it once it pierces the body of the target. That'd allow her to change its elemental nature into, say, fire, and disintegrate the target from the inside. I'm pretty sure Kimimaro simply doesn't have such control. Maybe if we were to take ALL of our stat and skill points from ALL of our stats and skills, and dump them ALL into Chakra Control, we'd get halfway there. More like 1/4 of the way, really.

Kaguya also has the combined Chakra of all nine Tailed Beasts. Seeing as the target's body is full of their own Chakra and would be trying to flush Kaguya's energy constantly, fighting it every step of the way, the amount of Chakra in that single bone would have to be greater than the entire Chakra of your target. That, I'd say, is simply beyond either Kimimaro or us. Or anyone, really. Throwing a single bone at Kakashi would require spending more Chakra than Kakashi has at the time, and the attack is far too easy to dodge. Unless you have Juubi-level Chakra to toss around, the murderbones are simply not a viable course of action.

So, yeah. I really don't think this is possible for Kimimaro or... anyone besides Kaguya, really.

uju32 · Apr 16, 2017

Dark as Silver said:
By getting inside of the dimension Obito stuffed things into thereby preventing him from using the insane defensive technique?
As flaws go that's a kind of hard to exploit one don't you think?

Not really no.
Naruto did the exact same thing to Tobi, only using a standard shadow clone.
EDIT
Chapter 598.

Asael said:
@uju32 I'm not entirely convinced that we can get fast enough to escape a shockwave traveling at the speed of sound baring FTG, but I guess we don't have much in terms of options.

I think you underestimate the tactical speeds and reflexes of shinobi.
Generally it's plot, because you have such things as the Great Snake Escape, or Itachi reacting to Kirin.
Or, less bullshitty, Team Gai seeing and reacting to Deidara's exploding clone before Kakashi vorped the blastfront.

Vindictus said:
I mean, that'd be all well and good, if it wasn't for the fact that a Rinnegan user was part of the stable full of bullshit OP enemies we've got waiting for us...

If we get to the point where the opposition have to pull out a Rinnegan user to pose a threat to Hisana, I'll be flipping thrilled; means we've hit the big leagues.
Remember, word of Nagato was that if Jiraiya had realized how his technique worked ie that there were more bodies and that they could be resurrected, he'd have won that fight. And Jiraiya had no special powers from heredity or extradimensional chakra batteries.

Canon Naruto largely beat Nagato on the back of Sage Mode, which is a skill entirely within our grasp.
A 3-tomoe Sharingan in Sage Mode would hopefully put us in the same general ballpark.

UberJJK · Apr 16, 2017

Mellodi said:
I don't understand where you came to this conclusion, if you choose DBR, yes you dodge like a boss but what use is that if you can't attack the person that's requiring you to dodge so hard, I don't see the long term benefits of DBR at all, Hisana can only get better at coping and fighting with the speed, which implies dodging, I'm not seeing how so many people are advocating for one half of a whole

...that was a typo.

It was suppose to say "isn't" not "is". I'm fully on board with getting combat Shunshin. Sorry for any confusion.

Akasha · Apr 16, 2017

uju32 said:
Generally it's plot, because you have such things as the Great Snake Escape, or Itachi reacting to Kirin.
Or, less bullshitty, Team Gai seeing and reacting to Deidara's exploding clone before Kakashi vorped the blastfront.

Canon Naruto largely beat Nagato on the back of Sage Mode, which is a skill entirely within our grasp.
A 3-tomoe Sharingan in Sage Mode would hopefully put us in the same general ballpark.

Or Sasuke summoning a snake, getting inside it and reverse-summoning it in the time it took for Deidara's suicide explosion to reach him, even though he was barely a couple metres away from the bomb.

Also, to be fair, Naruto had the benefit of Tendo, probably the most powerful of all Six Paths of Pain, being unable to use his gravity bullshit.
The battle most likely would've gone very differently if he could use it from the start. He did, after all, lose when Pain regained that ability, and it took Kyuubi's 'help' to get any further.

uju32 · Apr 16, 2017

Morphic Tide said:
Personally, I subscribe to the idea that it's a Sage Art using Fire elemental chakra.

Noop.
Kekkei mora, unique to Kaguya and her direct bloodline. No sage energy involved, and that's according to the 4th Databook.

Akasha said:
Or Sasuke summoning a snake, getting inside it and reverse-summoning it in the time it took for Deidara's suicide explosion to reach him, even though he was barely a couple metres away.

Hence the name the Great Snake Escape

Akasha said:
Also, to be fair, Naruto had the benefit of Tendo, probably the most powerful of all Six Paths of Pain, being unable to use his gravity bullshit.
The battle most likely would've gone very differently if he could use it from the start.

Perhaps.
Or if Naruto had better foreknowledge, Deva Pain would have pulled an exploding clone.

Which reminds me: We need to increase our Canon Knowledge to B-rank.
Being able to recognize all those techniques on sight is a superpower in it's own right.
Too many people in Naruto died because of ignorance of their opposition's powers.

Akasha · Apr 16, 2017

Ah, by the way...

I bet Karin is a spy for Orochimaru, and is the SI who gave him the knowledge. After all, Orochi exploded the other Grass Genin to death. In Karin's case, he 'just' stabbed her in a non-lethal spot, even though he was clearly too fast for her to react, since the moment he noticed her, she got stabbed. Either that, or she let him do it. And wouldn't you know it, he did it to the one person who can heal herself immediately, and is an Uzumaki, thus making her the perfect spy in regards to Naruto, because he'll try to get close to her and won't suspect her, since she is family, and he always wanted family. Especially after she seemingly almost died to Orochimaru for saving them. Perfect setup. Being an SI, she is also the best option to figure out if Hisana, the one person on Team 7 that shouldn't be, is an SI as well, by asking questions that only an SI could answer.

Y'know. Just in case someone tries to trust her too much. Keep this in mind. This is WAY too convenient.

uju32 · Apr 16, 2017

Akasha said:
Ah, by the way...

I bet Karin is a spy for Orochimaru, and is the SI who gave him the knowledge. After all, Orochi exploded the other Grass Genin to death. In Karin's case, he 'just' stabbed her in a non-lethal spot, even though he was clearly too fast for her to react, since the moment he noticed her, she got stabbed. Either that, or she let him do it. And wouldn't you know it, he did it to the one person who can heal herself immediately, and is an Uzumaki, thus making her the perfect spy in regards to Naruto, because he'll try to get close to her and won't suspect her, since she is family, and he always wanted family. Especially after she seemingly almost died to Orochimaru for saving them. Perfect setup. Being an SI, she is also the best option to figure out if Hisana, the one person on Team 7 that shouldn't be, is an SI as well, by asking questions that only an SI could answer.

Y'know. Just in case someone tries to trust her too much. Keep this in mind.

1)Canon Karin didn't meet Orochimaru till after the Chuunin Exams.
2) There is no such thing as a non-lethal sword stab in the chest; Karin just happens to be able to heal herself as well as other people.
3) An SI doesn't suddenly get to evolve broad-based competency; Hisana spent years and loads of Uchiha dosh to get where she is today.
Miss Orphan Girl In a Non-Supportive Small Village does not have the same resources or the same training.
Which is why you see that her native ability shines, especially with support, but outside that she gets destroyed by high-level threats.

4)If Karin is trying to defect to Konoha, she is going to get mindprobed by Yamanaka techniques.
Not conducive for hiding transmigrant memories or loyalties to Orochimaru.
5) A transmigrant would be far more valuable to Orochimaru up close than trying to worm her way into the graces of a foreign village.
Infiltration is why he has Kabuto.
6)If Orochimaru knew to worry about transmigrants, Kabuto would not be at the Chuunin Exams.
Because cover blown, and Kabuto is too valuable to waste.

Mellodi · Apr 16, 2017

UberJJK said:
...that was a typo. It was suppose to say "isn't" not "is". I'm fully on board with getting combat Shunshin. Sorry for any confusion.

It's okay, mistakes happen

, my argument still stands for anyone advocating for DBR though

matthew badger · Apr 16, 2017

Mellodi said:
It's okay, mistakes happen, my argument still stands for anyone advocating for DBR though

Yes, it was a good argument - Pretty much sums up my stance on shunshin.

Whilst dodging may be fine and dandy, it reduces our ability to deal with the threat we're dodging in the first place. It's better in my opinion to be able to dodge and attack, so that we can be more flexible whilst surviving just as well (Thanks to proactive retaliation against the enemy).

Morphic Tide · Apr 16, 2017

Akasha said:
So, yeah. I really don't think this is possible for Kimimaro or... anyone besides Kaguya, really.

Unless, of course, the stuff that makes it work bypasses a large chunk of the complications you mentioned. It need not overpower entirely, if it has Natural Energy/Sage Chakra involved in it, it has a convenient way of fucking over the target's chakra network.

It doesn't need to be a Sage Art, only involve the wonky interactions that are involved in injecting Natural Energy into a Chakra system. Or something similar to Jyuken Strikes. There's actually quite a few techniques that screw over the target's chakra system without overpowering the target.

uju32 said:
Kekkei mora

Which probably means it's something born of a pileup of bloodline abilities, given that "mora" here means "encompassing." Like Juugo's clan, who have a bloodline that gives them a bastardized Sage Mode. Or Kimimaro's clan, who make bone constructs.

Like, its literal translation very much implies that the powers involved come from having fully merged bloodlines. Something that requires being a pure blooded Otsutsuki, rather than being half-Otsutsuki like Kaguya's sons.

So yea. It's probably involving Natural Energy on some level, or at least stuff that causes similar abnormal destructive chakra interactions. Still able to have a version used by other people. Like the Infinite Tsukuyomi being used by Madara and Obito through two different methods.

Redshirt Army · Apr 16, 2017

Akasha said:
Y'know. Just in case someone tries to trust her too much. Keep this in mind. This is WAY too convenient.

I don't know if this exact scenario is the one in place, but yes - we should, in general, not trust Karin until significantly more vetting has occured.

Yog · Apr 16, 2017

uju32 said:
1)Canon Karin didn't meet Orochimaru till after the Chuunin Exams.

Are you seriously making "it didn't happen in canon" argument?

uju32 · Apr 16, 2017

Yog said:
Are you seriously making "it didn't happen in canon" argument?

*sigh*
If you bothered to bloody look up her history AT ALL, you would know why it's relevant.

Orochimaru literally stumbled across canon Uzumaki Karin by accident, where she was the sole survivor of an attack on a village she was stationed in apparently alone; she was a Grass shinobi, and had no backup, and hid from the attackers.
When Orochimaru met her, he took her AWAY with him to his base; he didn't leave her in Grass as some sort of agent.

All this happened AFTER the Chuunin Exams, when Orochimaru would have had increased interest in healers after Sarutobi fucked his arms up.
She was a healer and sensor; that's all. Adamantine Chains only showed up during the 4th World War, and IIRC developed spontaneously when she literally manifested it because Sasuke was dying and she was facing off against Tobi(chapter 663).

Said chains were explicitly a surprise to Orochimaru himself.

AU Karin's a motherfucking Grass shinobi who was being used as a medic.
Where exactly is she supposed to have met Orochimaru in this AU? Spent time with him enough to trust him? Be trained by him?
If he was interested in her, why would he have left her in Grass to heal their shinobi? Why would he even value her at all; not like he currently needs a healer.

Even her chains seem to have manifested in this forest, possibly when her "teammates" tried to kill her.

None of the conditions that brought her and Orochimaru together in canon currently exist, and no one has suggested any other scenario for how an orphan Grass genin is supposed to know an S-class missing-nin from Konoha.
Or to be desperate enough to join him.

And there will be a demonstrable paper trail, unlike the random orphans he picks up.

azoicennead · Apr 16, 2017

Asael said:
Wow, I would never have thought that!, good thing we can abandon our family to run away from a very fast city crusher!.

What is even the range of shunshin?.

Just so we're clear, I'm not shilling one way or the other for this vote, because I was resigned on that hours ago. I'm talking about future plans because we're inevitably going to be hip deep in shit without a shovel.

Our family? You mean the family full of powerful ninja? Yeah, I'm fine with leaving their defense to them.

Dark as Silver said:
By getting inside of the dimension Obito stuffed things into thereby preventing him from using the insane defensive technique?
As flaws go that's a kind of hard to exploit one don't you think?

Ah, that wasn't a very good video to link. I should instead be pointing at how Gai - who lacks any significant inherited talent - was able to go toe-to-toe with Tobi outside the Kamui place. Minato did, too, and won the fight before he had to go deal with Kurama.

veekie · Apr 16, 2017

[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.

Yog · Apr 16, 2017

uju32 said:
*sigh*
If you bothered to bloody look up her history AT ALL, you would know why it's relevant.

Orochimaru literally stumbled across canon Uzumaki Karin by accident, where she was the sole survivor of an attack on a village she was stationed in apparently alone; she was a Grass shinobi, and had no backup, and hid from the attackers.
When Orochimaru met her, he took her AWAY with him to his base; he didn't leave her in Grass as some sort of agent.

All this happened AFTER the Chuunin Exams, when Orochimaru would have had increased interest in healers after Sarutobi fucked his arms up.
She was a healer and sensor; that's all. Adamantine Chains only showed up during the 4th World War, and IIRC developed spontaneously when she literally manifested it because Sasuke was dying and she was facing off against Tobi(chapter 663).

Said chains were explicitly a surprise to Orochimaru himself.

AU Karin's a motherfucking Grass shinobi who was being used as a medic.
Where exactly is she supposed to have met Orochimaru in this AU? Spent time with him enough to trust him? Be trained by him?
If he was interested in her, why would he have left her in Grass to heal their shinobi? Why would he even value her at all; not like he currently needs a healer.

Even her chains seem to have manifested in this forest, possibly when her "teammates" tried to kill her.

None of the conditions that brought her and Orochimaru together in canon currently exist, and no one has suggested any other scenario for how an orphan Grass genin is supposed to know an S-class missing-nin from Konoha.
Or to be desperate enough to join him.

And there will be a demonstrable paper trail, unlike the random orphans he picks up.

Canon Orochimaru was not an Akatsuki member at the time of chuunin exam, Karin either knew or cared nothing about Uzumaki family name and her teammates weren't trying to kill her. All those point at deep background changes. So no, using canon ks not valid at all.

Akasha · Apr 16, 2017

On this, I have to agree with Yog.

Orochimaru works with an SI, or at least has access to the knowledge of one. With it, Orochimaru would know about Karin's amazing healing ability, Uzumaki roots and Adamantine Chains, which, seeing as he seems to be part of Akatsuki and may be hunting the Kyuubi, he has every reason to recruit early and insert into Naruto's inner circle during the Exam - the perfect opportunity. The Adamantine Chains can bind full-powered Kyuubi, as Kushina showed us. She's the perfect person for the job.

Even if she's not a spy, her healing ability makes her a very precious resource, as Orochimaru's truly valuable Shinobi wouldn't have to spend X time recovering from wounds, and her Adamantine Chains would make her deadly against almost anything that has Chakra, since they suppress it. There's no reason NOT to grab her early and earn her loyalty by 'saving' her from Grass. Then he could insert her there so that she ends up participating in the exam. Since SI knowledge would tell Orochimaru that Hisana shouldn't exist, and is therefore most likely an SI, he wouldn't send Kabuto to get close to Sasuke and/or Naruto. Hisana would know him. However, Karin? Showing up, saving the team from Orochimaru, instantly bonding with Naruto because both of them were Uzumaki? She might get past Hisana.
Or at least establish herself too fast for her to make her teammates wary of her.

Seeing Red [Naruto]

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