Seeing Red [Naruto]

Redshirt Army said:

How?

As long as Gaara is active, he can pass the test by bringing the unconcious bodies of the Sand Siblings with him - and he can trivially acquire two scrolls from weaker teams.

So we'd have to kill Temari and/or Kankuro - and beyond the ethics of it, removing a moderating influence on Gaara can't possibly end well.

The only alternative is to somehow incapacitate Gaara in a way that would last for the remaining time left in this exam - multiple days. Oh, and we have to do it in a way that doesn't rouse Shukaku.

This is a horrible idea on a huge number of levels.

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No, actually. There are opportunities:
1) Separate Gaara from his siblings. Neither he, nor they, have advanced tracking capabilities. Yes, he has that sand eye, but I am fairly sure it's quite limited. If he can be separated from them, and they can then be knocked out (and ideally tossed out of the confines of the forest), his team fails
2) Actually defeat Gaara. Right now, in the forest, is the best opportunity to do so. Because
a) We are not limited to one-on-one combat. We can fight him as a part of the team
b) We can retreat, potentially even leading him to a pre-made ambush site.
c) We have a large area of engagement, meaning we can use large scale summons.
d) We are not limited by collateral damage to the environment or spectators

3) Have his team disqualified. Destroy his team's scrolls (if they have two) and feed him fake one(s), or, if they only have one scroll, feed him a fake one from the start. Or swap the scrolls mid-combat if we can. They don't have seal specialists. They shouldn't be able to spot the different.

Asael said:

Setup in this case being literally touching something.

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Touching something requires moving to where that thing is. Also, having multiple options isn't a bad thing.

Asael said:

Honestly, this is all under the assumption the FTG is something we can even get.

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I'm working under the assumption that using it at all requires A-rank sealing, and to use it with the skill of Tobirama or Minato (i.e. variations like Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique, Slash, Second Step, Guiding Thunder, Spiraling Flash Super Round Dance Howl Style Three1​) requires S-rank sealing. That both of them can use it demonstrates pretty conclusively that it's not a totally unique technique; we could even learn the Flying Thunder Formation first to get us started (and, since that requires 3 people, that would all-but-guarantee that our team sticks together long-term, which would be nice).
(Also, Naruto learning the Flying Thunder Formation would be funny.)

1 Minato plz

Yog said:

Because right now is the best opportunity to eliminate Gaara as a part of the exam. In all points afterwards it'll be harder. Here we can have a legal opportunity to neutralize him without directly fighting him. Later, we'll have to fight him one-on-one, and not from an ambush, but in direct combat.

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More importantly than how, why do you want to eliminate someone we know can be turned into a valuable ally?
We can go around.

azoicennead said:

More importantly than how, why do you want to eliminate someone we know can be turned into a valuable ally?
We can go around.

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Because given how different everything is, it's absolutely not a given that the level of effort required to turn Gaara into an ally is feasible. I mean, in canon Orochimaru eventually became a good guy (and if not he, then Kabuto for certain). I am not seeing people arguing in favor of not fighting them with all we got.

Yog said:

No, actually. There are opportunities:
1) Separate Gaara from his siblings. Neither he, nor they, have advanced tracking capabilities. Yes, he has that sand eye, but I am fairly sure it's quite limited. If he can be separated from them, and they can then be knocked out (and ideally tossed out of the confines of the forest), his team fails.

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None of that team are complete pushovers. Assuming they can't perform basic duties like tracking is foolish, especially considering how unsubtle Gaara can be.

If we can knock Temari and Kankuro out and get them to the edge of the forest (remember, we're in the middle) before Gaara goes apeshit is questionable. That said, it is theoretically possible.

2) Actually defeat Gaara. Right now, in the forest, is the best opportunity to do so. Because
a) We are not limited to one-on-one combat. We can fight him as a part of the team
b) We can retreat, potentially even leading him to a pre-made ambush site.
c) We have a large area of engagement, meaning we can use large scale summons.
d) We are not limited by collateral damage to the environment or spectators

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We can't defeat a rampaging Shukaku without collateral, especially since a bunch of Sand jonin will probably arrow in on our position to start fucking shit up, since we're pushing the invasion schedule forward. Actually, a Tailed Beast fight in general is not something Special Jonin stats are enough for if you aren't a jinch yourself, and Naruto isn't in top form right now after the snekman fight.

I will note that getting Shukaku to enter the "disperse and reform" part of the dead jinch process would fuck up canon Akatsuki/Black Zetsu's plans up hardcore. We have no fucking clue if those plans are still happening, though.

3) Have his team disqualified. Destroy his team's scrolls (if they have two) and feed him fake one(s), or, if they only have one scroll, feed him a fake one from the start. Or swap the scrolls mid-combat if we can. They don't have seal specialists. They shouldn't be able to spot the different.

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Destroying their scrolls does jack shit - they can get another Heaven and another Earth scroll off two other teams if they're still active. We have nothing to swap them with - Hisana hasn't had time to make a copy.

Redshirt Army said:

None of that team are complete pushovers. Assuming they can't perform basic duties like tracking is foolish, especially considering how unsubtle Gaara can be.

If we can knock Temari and Kankuro out and get them to the edge of the forest (remember, we're in the middle) before Gaara goes apeshit is questionable. That said, it is theoretically possible.



We can't defeat a rampaging Shukaku without collateral, especially since a bunch of Sand jonin will probably arrow in on our position to start fucking shit up, since we're pushing the invasion schedule forward. Actually, a Tailed Beast fight in general is not something Special Jonin stats are enough for if you aren't a jinch yourself, and Naruto isn't in top form right now after the snekman fight.

I will note that getting Shukaku to enter the "disperse and reform" part of the dead jinch process would fuck up canon Akatsuki/Black Zetsu's plans up hardcore. We have no fucking clue if those plans are still happening, though.



Destroying their scrolls does jack shit - they can get another Heaven and another Earth scroll off two other teams if they're still active. We have nothing to swap them with - Hisana hasn't had time to make a copy.

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1) Neither are out teammates and current allies. And if we brief them on Kankuro's and Temari's likely abilities, they'll have an advantage. And the forest isn't that big, taking mere minutes to cross.
2) Where would sand jonins come from? From out of the forest? That's monitored by Konoha, and, unlike Orochimaru, they shouldn't be able to just waltz in. We can conceivably defeat Gaara, as we are srtonger than Naruto was in canon (and yes, I know that we don't know Gaara's current power level)
3) Destroying the scrolls gives us an opportunity to feed them fake ones if we make them. None of them are seal experts, they shouldn't be able to notice a forgery.

@azoicennead

I voted for DBR because I figured that it was a powerful defensive technique, and WoG later came out that it is flat out better in terms of defense. I figure we want at least one really good defensive ability just to help mitigate some of the absurd bullshit in this setting. Given the way the vote is going it's not going to be this one, but I figure (hope) we'll have other options down the road.

@Yog not really a fan of taking Gaara, mostly because we're dragging wounded.

[x] Write in: Back off and wait. Gaara can kill someone you don't care about before you go ahead.
-[x] If the next team is someone you do care about, stop them.
[x] Dance Between Raindrops. This trait allow the user to more effectively evade the aim of their enemy, their speed confusing the targeting ability of their opponents even further.

Seems like it'll probably work. I mean, Orochimaru probably isn't going to kill us if we take too long here, and even if he did decide to kill us, we spent ages discussing how the tower wouldn't be much, or really any, protection.

Asael said:

@Yog not really a fan of taking Gaara, mostly because we're dragging wounded.

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We could maybe leave them with one of our teammates / allies? Or divert to, say, Hinata's team and ask them for help?

Still, my point is: someone will have to fight Gaara, and either it happens now, where we can have many vs. one fight, or later, where it will be one on one, in a more confined setting favoring Gaara. And given RNG of the preliminaries, we don't know who'll end up fighting him.

For anyone interested here is the vote as it currently stands:


Vote Tally : Seeing Red [Naruto] | Page 131 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4


Gaara Response:
[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
No. of Votes: 24

[x] Genjutsu him and his team and sneak by. Between you and Sasuke you should have them thoroughly confounded. Fly if you can. If he notices then go at him with Naruto clones and sheer speed to occupy his attention for a short while.
No. of Votes: 2

[X] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
-[X] Use shadow clones to keep him occupied while you sneak by with genjutsu
No. of Votes: 1

[X] Have Naruto make 6 clones and Henge them to look like the group. Instruct them to head in that direction and stall while the group circles around.
No. of Votes: 1

[x] Unlimited Clone Works! Naruto bum rushes endless waves of clones at their team while the rest of you sneak by in the chaos.
No. of Votes: 1

[X] Cut him down.
-[X] Do it as efficiently as possible.
No. of Votes: 1

[X] This place is full of large animals use the smell of blood to draw the crazy away from the tower.
No. of Votes: 1

[x] Write in: Back off and wait. Gaara can kill someone you don't care about before you go ahead.
No. of Votes: 1

[X] Write-in: back off, consolidate your forces and try to work out how to defeat him. RIght now is the best opportunity to take his team out of the exam, since all three of them have to pass, and they have to have two scrolls. Brief your teammates on what you know about their abilities and work out the best plan to take that team down.
No. of Votes: 1

[x] Write in: Back off and wait. Gaara can kill someone you don't care about before you go ahead.
-[x] If the next team is someone you do care about, stop them.
No. of Votes: 1




Advanced Trait Selection: Speed
[x] Shunshin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.
No. of Votes: 36

[x] Dance Between Raindrops. This trait allow the user to more effectively evade the aim of their enemy, their speed confusing the targeting ability of their opponents even further.
No. of Votes: 16


Total No. of Voters: 53

Yog said:

We could maybe leave them with one of our teammates / allies? Or divert to, say, Hinata's team and ask them for help?

Still, my point is: someone will have to fight Gaara, and either it happens now, where we can have many vs. one fight, or later, where it will be one on one, in a more confined setting favoring Gaara. And given RNG of the preliminaries, we don't know who'll end up fighting him.

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That's not exactly true though. Since we know that Gaara is a demon container we simply warn anyone who gets stuck with him to forfeit. As such no one will be forced to fight him, well unless they decide to fight a blood thirsty demon container but then that's on them.

This admittedly means Gaara gets a clear sweep to the end but unless we kill him immediately he's still going be able to find an excuse to hang around for the final exam anyway (or worse will pretend to leave and we lose track of him).

Yog said:

Because given how different everything is, it's absolutely not a given that the level of effort required to turn Gaara into an ally is feasible. I mean, in canon Orochimaru eventually became a good guy (and if not he, then Kabuto for certain). I am not seeing people arguing in favor of not fighting them with all we got.

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Fighting Gaara right now is totally unnecessary.
Fighting Gaara right after our team got its ass beat by Orochimaru's clone and we're all probably running low on chakra is stupid. Given your complaints about the effects of Shunshin as a combat ability on our stamina, I'd think you would at least have noticed that Uchiha Flame Formation uses 60 chakra, and we were pretty fucking liberal with our chakra in that fight.

If - if - we're going to discard the original Fifth Kazekage as an ally (both of which he was in canon), we should at least wait until we've at least tried to help him, rather than pulling a modern interpretation of Danzo "I turned a loyal Konoha ninja's students into guaranteed enemies of Konoha" Shimura's attack on Akatsuki.

Asael said:

I voted for DBR because I figured that it was a powerful defensive technique, and WoG later came out that it is flat out better in terms of defense. I figure we want at least one really good defensive ability just to help mitigate some of the absurd bullshit in this setting. Given the way the vote is going it's not going to be this one, but I figure (hope) we'll have other options down the road.

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Vote for what you want, dude. My posts are mostly just explaining why I prefer Shunshin Mastery over DBR. I don't think either choice is wrong.

Yog said:

We could maybe leave them with one of our teammates / allies? Or divert to, say, Hinata's team and ask them for help?

Still, my point is: someone will have to fight Gaara, and either it happens now, where we can have many vs. one fight, or later, where it will be one on one, in a more confined setting favoring Gaara. And given RNG of the preliminaries, we don't know who'll end up fighting him.

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If you're concerned about an ally being taken out in the preliminaries, we can just advise them to forfeit because he's an incredibly powerful maniac. Beyond that in the tournament, I'm pretty sure Gaara's fight was one of the signals for the start of the invasion - which would turn it from one on one to many on one like you want.
And, frankly, there is no requirement for anyone to fight Gaara unless and until the invasion happens. Aside from the time they spend camping the tower, every person who might fight him has the option to forfeit before they even get in the ring with him.

The fact that you're so set on fighting Gaara with the assumption that we can take him after your complaints about people's assessments of Orochimaru in our previous fight (which, I'm going to say again was against Orochimaru the S-rank ninja and that we haven't had a chance to properly recover from) strikes me as ironic.

WorldSlayer said:

That's not exactly true though. Since we know that Gaara is a demon container we simply warn anyone who gets stuck with him to forfeit. As such no one will be forced to fight him, well unless they decide to fight a blood thirsty demon container but then that's on them.

This admittedly means Gaara gets a clear sweep to the end but unless we kill him immediately he's still going be able to find an excuse to hang around for the final exam anyway (or worse will pretend to leave and we lose track of him).

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Let's assume one of the following draws Gaara: Neji, Lee, Kiba, Naruto. Without having to disclose Gaara being a jinchuuriki, and perhaps even with disclosure (which risks Naruto's status), do you think any of them would listen to us?

azoicennead said:

Fighting Gaara right now is totally unnecessary.
Fighting Gaara right after our team got its ass beat by Orochimaru's clone and we're all probably running low on chakra is stupid. Given your complaints about the effects of Shunshin as a combat ability on our stamina, I'd think you would at least have noticed that Uchiha Flame Formation uses 60 chakra, and we were pretty fucking liberal with our chakra in that fight.

If - if - we're going to discard the original Fifth Kazekage as an ally (both of which he was in canon), we should at least wait until we've at least tried to help him, rather than pulling a modern interpretation of Danzo "I turned a loyal Konoha ninja's students into guaranteed enemies of Konoha" Shimura's attack on Akatsuki.

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I'm not saying "attack now". I am saying "recuperate, gather allies, then attack as a united front".

azoicennead said:

If you're concerned about an ally being taken out in the preliminaries, we can just advise them to forfeit because he's an incredibly powerful maniac. Beyond that in the tournament, I'm pretty sure Gaara's fight was one of the signals for the start of the invasion - which would turn it from one on one to many on one like you want.
And, frankly, there is no requirement for anyone to fight Gaara unless and until the invasion happens. Aside from the time they spend camping the tower, every person who might fight him has the option to forfeit before they even get in the ring with him.

The fact that you're so set on fighting Gaara with the assumption that we can take him after your complaints about people's assessments of Orochimaru in our previous fight (which, I'm going to say again was against Orochimaru the S-rank ninja and that we haven't had a chance to properly recover from) strikes me as ironic.

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I am insistent on fighting Gaara here since this is the best situation to fight Gaara in, and we have no choice but to fight Gaara at some point. And not many people will listen if told to forfeit. At least not all of them.

azoicennead said:

We have A-rank speed. All 3 of these options represent us having the reactions you're talking about.
Also, being Shunshin no Shisui, Jr. puts us pretty clearly on a similar path to Minato. In fact, if we follow the path to that conclusion, there's an argument to be made for us being better than Minato by virtue of having multiple options for our Go Faster.

edit: Just to clarify, I don't think any of these options could prevent us from being "Minato 2: Swordtastic Boogaloo", or that any of them would make us bad at being that. It's just that Shunshin Mastery gives us an early, direct parallel to the Flying Thunder God.

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I agree with you. My concern basically is that Raindrops turns us into 50% of the way to being Minato, whilst Shunshin gets us 100% of the way to being knock-off Minato. It's a short-term option. There's synergy there, but it's much reduced due to the inherent redundancy.

As for the argument that we dont need an uber defense..... Hidan only needs to get lucky once to kill us. Impure world resurrection is a thing and we might end up fighting an enemy with FTG, at which point getting touched can screw us.

We might be able to still win, but I would feel a lot better with at least one solid defensive technique. Even if it isn't DBR can we at least agree to that much?. There are just to many ways to get gibbed in this setting.

@Yog Gaara's power set makes him pretty good against numbers, especially if he has had more time to make sand. Also, this is a battelfield of his choosing, which kind of has me worried.

I was looking over the last few chapters and I noticed that the grass gennin knew Orochimaru on sight, and it seems a little odd to me that a teen from a foreign village knows Orochimarus face that well. Maybe It's just my paranoia, but could there be a connection?.

Ok, tinfoil hat time. Orochimaru's clone is a Pain technique, right?. This implies that orochimaru is still with akatsuki, or at the very least, associated with Pain. Random grass gennin recognizes orochimaru on sight, implying recent-ish and open contact between grass and Orochimaru. Orochimaru played along with canon and went after sasuke in the forest, but backed off at the moment of "victory". Karin is stronger than in cannon in spite of being less trusted by her native village and still not having a mother to teach her. More interestingly, grass sent "assassins" after her that couldn't do the job even though they probably have a pretty clear idea of what she is capable of, but also chose to execute this assassination in a place and at a time where it would be easy for her to defect with village secrets, rather than at a place and time where they could better stack the deck against her.

The weirdest thing about Orochimaru's actions are that we have a pretty good idea that he has access to at least some canon knowledge, so why would he pursue a path he knows doesn't work out?. Based on the SI's words to Mizuki, they kidnapped Sakura for the purpose of drawing out Naruto, implying Orochimaru's goal was the kyuubi.

Also, Karins timing for interrupting the Orochimaru fight was very fortuitous.

Maybe it's just my paranoia, but this stinks to high heaven. I just don't have enough info to tie everything together neatly right this moment.

Yog said:

Let's assume one of the following draws Gaara: Neji, Lee, Kiba, Naruto. Without having to disclose Gaara being a jinchuuriki, and perhaps even with disclosure (which risks Naruto's status), do you think any of them would listen to us?

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Tekomandor said:

"My cousin when he gets a little angry? But yeah, that's a fucking demon host camping the tower. What'do we do, boss?" Karin said.

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Disclosure isn't really an issue.

Yes, they would listen, Hisana is a well respected and known figure. Additionally, if they won't listen to her then she can tell their teacher who should be able to convince them to forfeit. If they still don't listen, well we tried out best. I suppose we could genjutsu them or something but really I doubt anyone is going to be dumb enough to get themselves stuck in a one vs one fight against a strategic weapon.

I doubt anyone from Leaf is going to get themselves stuck in such a shitty situation with warnings from such respected sources. Really the only people who might get themselves killed by Gaara are going to be ninja from other villages who won't trust Hisana or Karin as a source. That could be an issue but we can't be responsible for everyone's suicidally crazy mistakes.

Asael said:

We might be able to still win, but I would feel a lot better with at least one solid defensive technique. Even if it isn't DBR can we at least agree to that much?. There are just to many ways to get gibbed in this setting.

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What do you have against Uchiha Flame Formation? It's a solid defensive technique that is applicable on both large and small scales.

That said I do think Hisana would benefit from a couple more defensive techniques. Dodge is always the best defense but it's never 100% reliable so some more fallback options would be nice. I just think the opportunity cost of DBR isn't worth it.

Redshirt Army said:

Swift

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Nice work.
Now I have to find a thousand words or so to get Schooling or Iryojutsu to B-rank.....

Yog said:

Because right now is the best opportunity to eliminate Gaara as a part of the exam. In all points afterwards it'll be harder. Here we can have a legal opportunity to neutralize him without directly fighting him. Later, we'll have to fight him one-on-one, and not from an ambush, but in direct combat.

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In addition to the issues that @Redshirt Army raised, even if everything worked like clockwork and got him kicked off the exam?

Your proposal would give Gaara freedom to roam for a month where we could not keep an eye on him.
At a time when Orochimaru might still be manipulating Suna to invade Konoha, and we don't know what the Zetsus' controller has planned.
Need I explain just how badly this could go?

You can't even keep him from showing up for the Exam finals; all he has to do is show up with his father as invited guests to watch the show, and they could sit pretty and grin at you from the Guest Box.

UberJJK said:

What do you have against Uchiha Flame Formation? It's a solid defensive technique that is applicable on both large and small scales.

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It's a static defense (doesn't move with you.), which I am never a fan of.

Ninja battles are like rocket tag- I'm not really a fan of holding still for any reason but stealth.

Yog said:

Let's assume one of the following draws Gaara: Neji, Lee, Kiba, Naruto. Without having to disclose Gaara being a jinchuuriki, and perhaps even with disclosure (which risks Naruto's status), do you think any of them would listen to us?

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The bolded isn't true. There are plenty of ways to drop that bomb without touching on Naruto. We could even just say "he's a murderous asshole and has the nastiest chakra I've ever sensed".
Furthermore, Neji and Lee should know Hisana by reputation as a beast in the Academy (and Lee may consider her a fellow "genius of hard work"), and I'd hope they at least recognize her as a valuable source of advice. Kiba was in our class, so he should know that we're good and consider our advice. In all three of their cases, pointing out that his primary weapon is also the shield that they'll be sticking their limbs in because they use taijutsu so they're at a major tactical disadvantage (of the "almost guaranteed to be lethal" kind) should, at the least, put enough caution in them to forfeit before they get crippled.

As for Naruto... He watched Hisana tackle Orochimaru and trap herself alone inside a barrier with Orochimaru. If he doesn't take Hisana saying not to fight someone seriously, there's deeper problems to resolve.

azoicennead said:

Fighting Gaara right now is totally unnecessary.
Fighting Gaara right after our team got its ass beat by Orochimaru's clone and we're all probably running low on chakra is stupid. Given your complaints about the effects of Shunshin as a combat ability on our stamina, I'd think you would at least have noticed that Uchiha Flame Formation uses 60 chakra, and we were pretty fucking liberal with our chakra in that fight.

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All this.

azoicennead said:

If you're concerned about an ally being taken out in the preliminaries, we can just advise them to forfeit because he's an incredibly powerful maniac.

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This.
Let me point out that in canon, Kiba flatout told Hinata to forfeit if she got Gaara.
Established precedent for telling a teammate/friend "Dont fight that guy".

Yog said:

I am insistent on fighting Gaara here since this is the best situation to fight Gaara in, and we have no choice but to fight Gaara at some point. And not many people will listen if told to forfeit. At least not all of them.

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And if they choose to fight, there are jounin to step in and avoid fatalities if they are fighting in the arena.
Different from the forest where it's everyman for himself.

Asael said:

It's a static defense (doesn't move with you.), which I am never a fan of.
Ninja battles are like rocket tag- I'm not really a fan of holding still for any reason but stealth.

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Canon Kakashi had no defenses worth speaking of.
Neither did Naruto. Or Sakura.

Sasuke's Susanoo served as both an offense and a defense, but as we see with Madara and Kabuto, it doesn't protect the feet or prevent genjutsu.
Jiraiya had ONE offensive technique that acted as a sometime defense; it was a static defense (Hari Jizo)
I could keep going.

Mobile defenses other than "Dodge better noob" really aren't a thing in Naruto.
There are offensive techniques that have defensive functionality, but that's it.

uju32 said:

Canon Kakashi had no defenses worth speaking of.
Neither did Naruto. Or Sakura.

Sasuke's Susanoo served as both an offense and a defense, but as we see with Madara and Kabuto, it doesn't protect the feet or prevent genjutsu.
Jiraiya had ONE offensive technique that acted as a sometime defense; it was a static defense (Hari Jizo)
I could keep going.

Mobile defenses other than "Dodge better noob" really aren't a thing in Naruto.
There are offensive techniques that have defensive functionality, but that's it.

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Kakashi and Sakura aren't the best examples (little screen time, few fights. Kakashi retires early and Sakura is a medic.), and Naruto is Ninja Jesus. From what I understand, ninja jesus ends up dead in Boruto. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because this in particular is distinctly second hand knowledge.

Jirayia also ended up dead.

And if you really want to talk about how bullshit someone can get with a defensive technique, I could just point to Tobi. Or Gaara. Lightning armor might be offensive+ defensive- but if we could learn it I imagine it would stack with sushin just fine. Frankly, I want two things. A way to reduce the risk of fighting people like Hidan who can gank us with one lucky cut and a way to not get flattened from Pains city crusher or Madara's meteor. If we have a good way to deal with those, I'm happy.

[x] Dance Between Raindrops. This trait allow the user to more effectively evade the aim of their enemy, their speed confusing the targeting ability of their opponents even further.

Asael said:

Kakashi and Sakura aren't the best examples (little screen time, few fights. Kakashi retires early and Sakura is a medic.), and Naruto is Ninja Jesus. From what I understand, ninja jesus ends up dead in Boruto. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because this in particular is distinctly second hand knowledge.

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As far as I can tell, that's future plotkai.
Hasn't happened, and we don't know how it happens.

Which is good, because at this point, it is likely to take a deus ex machina to kill him.
Or him sacrificing his life for someone else.

Asael said:

Jirayia also ended up dead.

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To a Rinnegan user.
If it takes a Rinnegan user to threaten us, I'd be well pleased.

Asael said:

And if you really want to talk about how bullshit someone can get with a defensive technique, I could just point to Tobi. Or Gaara. Lightning armor might be offensive+ defensive- but if we could learn it I imagine it would stack with sushin just fine.

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Tobi: Offensive technique with defensive application.
Gaara: Offensive technique with defensive application.
Lightning Armor: Offensive technique with defensive application.

Asael said:

Frankly, I want two things. A way to reduce the risk of fighting people like Hidan who can gank us with one lucky cut and a way to not get flattened from Pains city crusher or Madara's meteor. If we have a good way to deal with those, I'm happy.

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Not really a thing in Naruto; even the most powerful shinobi remain at risk in combat.
The first time Madara got beat, he was stabbed through with a sword. Same with Izuna. Same shit for Sarutobi.

Kabutomaru keeps dodging Sasuke's sword for the same reason.
Nobody is so tough in Naruto that a blade or an appropriate punch will not fuck them up.
Unless they're an Edo Tensei zombie.

As for not getting flattened by Pain or Madara's citykillers, a specific technique for surviving a citykiller is not a reasonable ambition anyway; in canon, the only reasonable defense against those things was to shoot them, not to block/parry them.
Tobi had to sacrifice an eye to survive Konan's explosion lake.

Some things you have to realize were not designed to be blocked.

uju32 said:

As for not getting flattened by Pain or Madara's citykillers, a specific technique for surviving a citykiller is not a reasonable ambition anyway; in canon, the only reasonable defense against those things was to shoot them, not to block/parry them.
Tobi had to sacrifice an eye to survive Konan's explosion lake.

Some things you have to realize were not designed to be blocked.

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Who said anything about blocking?. I just want to be sure we have a way to deal with it before we end up fighting either of them. I don't really care how, frankly, and it seems unlikely we'll be able to avoid them all together. Or are you hoping we can gank them before they flatten everything?.

And the fact that Tobi's technique has offensive uses isn't really the point. He survived shit no one has any business surviving because he had a potent defense. Fact of the matter is, team 7 has been singled out by incredibly powerful people, so having an emergency defense if we get blindsided would be nice. I'm not asking for miracles, but these are things we legitimately have to think about, because it seems very likely we'll be facing them.

Asael said:

Jirayia also ended up dead.

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Jiraiya was harder for Pain to kill than literally the entirety of Konoha. If we're as tough as Jiraiya, we're in good shape. That's a high bar.

Asael said:

I could just point to Tobi. Or Gaara.

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Both of them died. Also, the Third Raikage, who was so tough the only known thing that could break his skin was himself, died.

My point is, people dying in canon really doesn't provide much support for any argument about the value of defense or offense. Especially when it took fucking Pain to kill them.
Also...

Asael said:

Kakashi and Sakura aren't the best examples (little screen time, few fights. Kakashi retires early and Sakura is a medic.)

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Remember how you were touting Tobi as an example of the value of bullshit-level defensive abilities? Do you remember how Kakashi held his own against Tobi?

Asael said:

Who said anything about blocking?. I just want to be sure we have a way to deal with it before we end up fighting either of them. I don't really care how, frankly, and it seems unlikely we'll be able to avoid them all together. Or are you hoping we can gank them before they flatten everything?.

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So... A way to quickly remove ourselves from the impact zone? Like, say, Shunshin?