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Seeing Red [Naruto]

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Asael said:
What does sunshin even cost?. Considering our build, I somehow doubt this could really be considered a mitigating factor if it works the way you suggest.
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Shunshin costs 1 chakra per use; after discounts, that's 0.3 chakra.
Cheap right? Try it again after dropping a boss summon and a couple Wind Dragons.
Spam it during a boss fight and you just spent 30 chakra on using it 100 times.

We have a backup seal to help, but Shunshin is a non-trivial expense.
 
[x] Dance Between Raindrops. This trait allow the user to more effectively evade the aim of their enemy, their speed confusing the targeting ability of their opponents even further.

Someone said min-maxing so I'm obligated to vote for this because fuck the min-maxing mindset.

-edit-

Plus being able to dodge better with no chakra use is much better in the long run. We can get speed mastery later when our main techniques aren't already chakra hogs.

-edit-

Plus I bet we can make people hit their allies with this by confusing the hell out of them like it says aim wise.
 
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[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.

Shushin mastery has excellent synergy with the Sharingan as it allows the user to take in the situation far faster than usual upon ending the technique, or maybe even do so mid technique with enough practice. Also Shushin mastery makes it far more difficult for someone to attack her from behind.

The weaknesses of Shushin is that it not only takes chakra to use, but also requires space to maneuver whereas dance between the raindrops requires far less room to function properly.
 
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uju32 said:
Shunshin costs 1 chakra per use; after discounts, that's 0.3 chakra.
Cheap right? Try it again after dropping a boss summon and a couple Wind Dragons.
Spam it during a boss fight and you just spent 30 chakra on using it 100 times.

We have a backup seal to help, but Shunshin is a non-trivial expense.
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This too.

It makes sense that it's overall cost per battle will become higher, as we will be using it more regularly due to it's new classification as a combat technique, rather than a travelling one.

Therefore, i suspect it's usefulness as a purchase (Compared to the others) will be similarly large.
 
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Shushin isn't even on our justsu list, although we used it in this last update
uju32 said:
Shunshin costs 1 chakra per use; after discounts, that's 0.3 chakra.
Cheap right? Try it again after dropping a boss summon and a couple Wind Dragons.
Spam it during a boss fight and you just spent 30 chakra on using it 100 times.

We have a backup seal to help, but Shunshin is a non-trivial expense.
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Most fights last minutes at most, so honestly I would still consider that pretty trivial. Especially considering that we'll probably be sitting around A Rank chakra before summoning a boss becomes truly combat viable. Our seal alone, at this point, would allow us to spam it three hundred times in a row. Outside of an actual war of attrition, I don't see us using it that many times in a single battle or a small group of battles outside of undead Madara..


In any case, I'm out of time to argue about this right now as my break is over, so I'll leave with a request that I will hopefully get back to later.

@Tekomandor could you please elaborate a little on dancing between raindrops?, specifically in how it compares to shushin mastery?.
 
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It strikes me that we pointed out a few updates back that our greatest weakness was a lack of solid defensive options, and that in any situation where we weren't able to take full advantage of our speed to instagib our opponents, we'd be at a loss regarding defensive options.

Shunshin plays to our current strengths, it's true, but it also exacerbates our weaknesses- We're faster and more killy, but we will burn through our limited reserves of stamina even faster than before if that's not enough.

Dancing Between Raindrops, on the other hand, doesn't exaggerate our strengths even further, but it also covers our weakness by giving us the ability to dodge attacks by just enough that we aren't hit- Allowing us to avoid damage, while minimizing the stamina cost of doing so.

While I am, in general, okay with us going all in on bonus XP expenditures, I feel like picking up a skill that mitigates the flaws of that plan proooobably is a better idea than picking up a skill that exaggerates the plan even further.
 
OverReactionGuy said:
[x] Dance Between Raindrops. This trait allow the user to more effectively evade the aim of their enemy, their speed confusing the targeting ability of their opponents even further.

Someone said min-maxing so I'm obligated to vote for this because fuck the min-maxing mindset.

-edit-

Plus being able to dodge better with no chakra use is much better in the long run. We can get speed mastery later when our main techniques aren't already chakra hogs.

-edit-

Plus I bet we can make people hit their allies with this by confusing the hell out of them like it says aim wise.
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I mentioned min-maxing without the intention of voting for that same reason. To be honest, whilst shunshin mastery is powerful enough to be considered best due to its min-max potential, it is also the coolest of the options that we could pick imo, and therefore best of both worlds from my perspective.

To refuse it out of stubbornness over a reason mentioned by another person that they aren't even that bothered with, seems the height of foolishness.
 
[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.
 
Vindictus said:
It strikes me that we pointed out a few updates back that our greatest weakness was a lack of solid defensive options, and that in any situation where we weren't able to take full advantage of our speed to instagib our opponents, we'd be at a loss regarding defensive options.

Shunshin plays to our current strengths, it's true, but it also exacerbates our weaknesses- We're faster and more killy, but we will burn through our limited reserves of stamina even faster than before if that's not enough.

Dancing Between Raindrops, on the other hand, doesn't exaggerate our strengths even further, but it also covers our weakness by giving us the ability to dodge attacks by just enough that we aren't hit- Allowing us to avoid damage, while minimizing the stamina cost of doing so.

While I am, in general, okay with us going all in on bonus XP expenditures, I feel like picking up a skill that mitigates the flaws of that plan proooobably is a better idea than picking up a skill that exaggerates the plan even further.
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As far as i can tell, once strengths progress beyond a certain point, they begin to cover for our weaknesses in other subjects. Back when we were asked what our weaknesses were, our strengths were not developed enough to do so.

However, purchasing shunshin may well be capable of removing that flaw entirely, via it's ability to keep us mobile and aggressive almost indefinitely.
 
Asael said:
Shushin isn't even on our justsu list, although we used it in this last update
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Shunshin = Body Flicker.

Asael said:
Most fights last minutes at most,
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Depends on how they run.
We saw battles last entire days in canon. We've seen our PC fight multiple successive fights in this AU.
Orochimaru's clone still managed to blow most of it's chakra reserves in a couple minutes by using bigass techniques in quick succession.

Vindictus said:
It strikes me that we pointed out a few updates back that our greatest weakness was a lack of solid defensive options, and that in any situation where we weren't able to take full advantage of our speed to instagib our opponents, we'd be at a loss regarding defensive options.
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Not the way speed works.
Shunshin means you can evade your enemy's attack at a chakra cost, or simply retreat from battle.
I mean, you'll note in the penultimate update where we weren't fast enough to intercept Orochimaru who was about to seal Naruto.

Speed allows you to get inside of your opponent's OODA loop, which has both offensive and defensive applications.
The issue is that the Body Flicker costs chakra at this level, but so would any defensive technique, and it makes up for it by being more versatile.
 
[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.
looks good
 
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[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.
 
matthew badger said:
As far as i can tell, once strengths progress beyond a certain point, they begin to cover for our weaknesses in other subjects. Back when we were asked what our weaknesses were, our strengths were not developed enough to do so.
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Just because having significant strengths allows us to correct for our weaknesses doesn't mean we don't have weaknesses. It just means we're able to cover them up in most situations.

Keeping in mind that we're being targeted by some of the most skilled and powerful ninjas there are, forgetting the fact that we do, indeed, have these weaknesses? Could easily be lethal.
uju32 said:
The issue is that the Body Flicker costs chakra at this level, but so would any defensive technique, and it makes up for it by being more versatile.
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Dance Between Raindrops is pretty clearly a defensive technique, and it doesn't appear to have any chakra cost to it, instead being a passive result of our high speed rating. Further, being able to avoid our enemy's attacks might not be 'versatile', but it allows us to function as a dodge tank by simply not being where our enemy's attacks land.

There seems to be an assumption that the choices are unbalanced, but I don't really see that. We've got an option that provides a maneuverability enhancement to an existing technique, an option that makes it harder for enemies to avoid our attacks, and an option that makes us better at dodging.
 
Asael said:
There would be no reason to have a purely defensive technique on the list if it fell completely flat defensively in comparison to a defensive/offensive technique on the same list, especially if they are mutually exclusive.
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Dancing Between Raindrops can be a superior defensive option while Shunshin is a better option overall. The reason people are saying Shunshin is better is that it's offensive and defensive; on the occasions that our normal speed isn't enough, we have an option to be faster. This is especially valuable because our primary combat style gets the biggest boost from speed increases. Going further, if we look at what Shisui got from mastering it, it improves our stealth up to letting us pull stealth hi-byes.
DBR's value seems to be that it doesn't use any chakra at all and is always active. And, y'know, not being hit.

Vindictus said:
While I am, in general, okay with us going all in on bonus XP expenditures, I feel like picking up a skill that mitigates the flaws of that plan proooobably is a better idea than picking up a skill that exaggerates the plan even further.
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While it's not the strongest of the two options with defensive applications, I think claiming that Shunshin Mastery only exaggerates the flaws of our skillset is incredibly disingenuous. Dodging - which should be our primary method of defending ourself anyway - relies heavily on moving fast enough to not be where the person is aiming. Shunshin, when it's a viable in-combat movement method, very clearly enables that.
Also, at some point an overwhelmingly fast offense becomes a defense by virtue of not giving our enemies time to mount an attack.

Vindictus said:
We're faster and more killy, but we will burn through our limited reserves of stamina even faster than before if that's not enough.
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Claiming that something that uses 0.375% of our natural chakra capacity per use significantly impacts our stamina is kind of silly, especially when it only uses 0.13% of our total capacity. And, frankly, if you want to fix stamina issues the better method is to invest in chakra control and capacity.

@Tekomandor, what options do Karin and Hiroyuki offer? Also, are Hiroyuki's mushroom minions more like puppets or summons (i.e. are they in some way people, or are they unthinking fodder)?

My thought on this is to mix shadow clones, illusory clones, and the mushroom minions with genjutsu on Kankuro and Temari (probably Tree-binding Death) to fake a frontal assault while we slip around. The clones not looking like us is preferred.
 
[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.

Sauce-k is probably going to give us some salt about risking our life after this, isn't he?
 
azoicennead said:
Claiming that something that uses 0.375% of our natural chakra capacity per use significantly impacts our stamina is kind of silly
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It uses that much chakra... If we use it once. So, in a one on one fight where there is a single exchange of blows and then we're done... Yeah, sure, it's not a big expenditure.

If we're fighting, say, Konan, who we can't kill in a single strike, and she goes full Bullet Hell with her paper so that we have to dodge over and over again... We can afford to dodge about 250 times, if we use no extra chakra on anything. Summon help? Whoops, suddenly we've got 100 dodges. Use our ninjutsu? Blam, only 50 dodges left.... Then 10... And then we get to the point where we can't dodge any more, because we used up all our Chakra.

So, no, trying to dodge tank with the skill that's not meant to be used for dodge tanking isn't actually that great an idea.
 
Vindictus said:
It's less 'Chase them away from the post' and more 'This fucker just keeps dancing around my attempts to crush them! I MUST CRUSH HARDER!' and getting tunnel-visioned on that goal while we... Sort of just walk past?

I'm pretty sure I posted the Ball Passing video earlier to explain how Ninja could slip by us while we were defending civilians, but here it is again:


People are bad at paying attention to multiple things at once.
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That selective test isn't that good. I could count the passes and saw the gorilla. They don't move well enough to be distracting.

This one is better in my opinion. If I notice the gorilla bear I can't get the right pass number.

 
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[x] Shushin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.

Shisui yeah!
 
Tekomandor said:
Exams 4.6
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COMMENTARY:
-Last I checked, at this point in canon Konoha doesn't know Oro can body jump.
So no suspicion that Hisana was possessed.

-Karin is still up for significant vetting by Konoha Intel.
Possibly including Yamanaka screening, which would probably catch a transmigrant's memories.
Grass has to be insane to expend her like that, unless they're trying to infiltrate Konoha.

-The fact that Naruto is the only other Uzumaki Karin has ever heard of suggests that other survivors promptly changed their names to hide.

-I assume Hisana sealed up Orochimaru's clone body for Intel.
And Hiroyuki's teammate for burial; small enough gesture.
Coming into the tower with an Orochimaru clone body for T and I to geek out over should be worth bonus promotion points.

-Breaking Kin's leg was a dick move on Hisana's part.
Breaking a person's arm means they can't fight, but breaking their leg means they can't run; one gets you failed, the other gets you killed.
Wonder what Kin did to piss her off specifically.

-Gaara is spawn camping because of course he is.
*sigh*
This probably means we need to NOT incapacitate his siblings, since they're the ones who generally dissuade him from killing sprees.
Temari's voice of reason is no good if she's unconscious.

I wonder if there are other people in the bushes watching Gaara and looking for a good opportunity to slip past.
Sorta like Team Kurenai in canon.


VOTE
[x] It should be easy enough to occupy his attention for a short while. This will be safer to the hostages, but harder on you.
[x] Shunshin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.


Engaging Gaara a little gives us a feel for his AU skill and power level. And our newly A-class speed means we can run the fuck away if necessary.
Shunshin Mastery has been litigated here; it's both an offensive and defensive skill that scales very well with our Uchiha heritage(is that speed or is it genjutsu? How can you tell?) and our kenjutsu.

And it's just way cool to play the "Second Coming of Uchiha Shisui"card. Shisui obviously didn't die; he just went undercover as an 8 year old girl.
We can then look forward to the complaints that Konoha snuck a ringer into the chuunin exams.
 
Forgot to vote, but I don't really care beyond getting Shunshin mastery.

[x] Shunshin mastery. This trait allows the user far greater control over the Shushin, making it a viable move in combat. Specifically, straight lines are no longer a limiting factor.
 
Vindictus said:
It uses that much chakra... If we use it once. So, in a one on one fight where there is a single exchange of blows and then we're done... Yeah, sure, it's not a big expenditure.

If we're fighting, say, Konan, who we can't kill in a single strike, and she goes full Bullet Hell with her paper so that we have to dodge over and over again... We can afford to dodge about 250 times, if we use no extra chakra on anything. Summon help? Whoops, suddenly we've got 100 dodges. Use our ninjutsu? Blam, only 50 dodges left.... Then 10... And then we get to the point where we can't dodge any more, because we used up all our Chakra.

So, no, trying to dodge tank with the skill that's not meant to be used for dodge tanking isn't actually that great an idea.
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You cannot aim dodge an AoE technique anyway; it's called Dodging Between Raindrops, not Dodging Between Explosions.
For that sorta problem, you use genjutsu; I don't think it's a coincidence that the other thing Shisui was famous for was genjutsu.

And note that if your opponent is throwing 3 chakra techniques that you are expending 0.3 chakra to dodge, you aren't going to run out of juice first.
 
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