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Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
I mean, I'm not opposed to demonology, but you're pretending like the alternaive is just sitting on our ass. There is a vast list of researches to consider, each of which offers various enticing advantages in the short and/or long term. One of the reasons to consider Demonology is that there is a certain cost/risk in keeping Bongo, and there is an argument to be made that, all other things similar, it might be a good idea to take advantage of its presence before it is gone, either through our choice, or because of events beyond our control.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Yes, you do have point there. Sorry, I might have been feeling somewhat bitter while composing that post. Should have kept it more constructive.
We can do that, after researching it. Because we are guaranteed to run into daemons that are actually free at some point, and I would prefer to have as many tools as feasible to handle and defend against them. Its just that the research for how to safely due the research on demonology has been delayed due to other, also useful, research.
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
[X] Aetherion
Right. To 'deal' with Bongo in a semi-permanent manner in order we need:
- Psychic Encryption (150 RP): to prevent Bongo (and other daemons/seers) from looking at our defenses and finding all of the weak points and to give the upcoming Warp Comms some actual encryption.
- Demonology (150 RP): so we can bind Bongo in a way that stops them from continually gaining energy during warp travel/regular turns and using that energy to hit our shields.
- Once Bongo is bound we put them on a Psy-Shielded and Encrypted space station and have it orbit.... say Denva out in the system's Ort Cloud. There, nobody local who might know/care about Bongo can't find them and Bongo can't get the energy to breakout.
As for Demonology being a late game tech.... well yeah, the circumstances for us to get it and get it for this low are kinda unreal. We just have gotten so many compounding bonuses that it's now less than a single research action.
For a reminder to get to where it is now we had:
- Option to keep the Scrap Code Generator.
- Which unlocked Warp: Scrapcode Research (200 RP) - completed on Turn 19 with a poor success.
- Which unlocked:
- A) Hacking: Scrapcode Cleansing (100 RP) - completed on Turn 20 with a Success. This discounted C and D.
- B) Psy-Shield: Scrapcode-resistant Psychic shielding (150 RP)
- C) Psy-Tech: Scrapcode Generation (800 RP) -> 700 RP (A discount)
- D) Warp: Further Scrapcode research - (200 RP) -> 150 RP (A discount)
- On Turn 21 we researched Immaterium Investigation with a Critical success. That discounted D by 50 RP and upgraded the description. It also discounted C by 100 RP.
- C) 700 RP -> 600 RP
- D) 150 RP -> 100 RP
- E) It also unlocked Warp: Demonology (250 RP) without Bongo 750 RP
- On Turn 22 we researched Psy-Shields: Scrapcode-resistant Psychic shielding which Nat 100 crit. This:
- Unlocked - Scrapcode Immunity
- Unlocked - Psychic Encryption (150 RP) as a bonus tech (likely from the Nat 100)
- Discounted D) by 50 RP
- D) 150 RP -> 100 RP
- Unlocked - Scrapcode Immunity
- On the same turn we researched D) Warp: Further Scrapcode Research with a poor success. This:
- Unlocked Psy-Tech: Destructive Scrapcode Investigation (200 RP)
- Scrapcode Generation cost reduced by 150 RP
- Demonology cost reduced by 50 RP
- C) 600 RP -> 450 RP
- E) 250 RP -> 200 RP (without Bongo 600 RP)
- On Turn 24 we researched Empathy as Sensors with a Critical success. This got us:
- Demonology cost reduced by 50 RP
- E) 200 RP -> 150 RP (without Bongo 450 RP)
- Location
- colombia
because the alternative would have been arriving at at chaos invaded denva WITHOUT countermeasures against chaos had we thrown bongo into the sun
and we see the cost opportunity (test bongo vs test on the battlefield) benefits keeping him as annoying his actions are
i rather handle bongo than try to research "skullfucker 9000 killer of sectors" in the wild while having increased RP costs
in the simplest way i can say it: bongo is the easy mode,it only gets worse from there
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Daemonology should secure Bongo's scrying and telepathy by itself, because once bound Bongo will be compelled to obey us. Obvious hazards abound, and we should obtain psychic encryption soonish for the anti-scry protections in general, but with a good success on daemonology the matter will likely be settled.
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
Personally, instead of pushing for demonology which I object to in general, I would rather push Cia's development of her powers to the point that she can give true death to bongo. That deals with our concerns about bongo giving away vital intelligence about our operations to chaos, because bongo won't exist anymore.
My argument against that is that while we are researching Demonology, Bongo will be right there, still able to see what we are doing and planning. If there is going to be any last ditch efforts to disrupt us or break free then I can't see it holding back anything if it sees us going for Demonology. Encryption would make it so that when we go for binding it, it comes as a surprise/unknown method.
@avatar11792 the idea is to stop Bongo from constantly trying to escape and leak info on us to the greater Chaos factions. Also I've been convinced the Demonology isn't going to auto corrupt us given that it also has banishing daemons as part of the description and mentions unlocking further research/tech to protect against daemons better.
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Perish the thought! Bongo is a good spirit, he's just fallen in with a bad crowd of infinite leather jacket wearing gangsters and their mystical cryptocurrency scams.
We'll take away his smartphone and send him to military school to learn how to become a proper familiar, and that's that!
Bongo just now expended all his energy trying to get out, so this is the opportune time.
Both techs are at a rather low cost. So why not both? (With Encryption leading and a portion of our production allocated to applying whatever it is that we learnt from it that same turn before we research Demonology)
Binge-read this quest yesterday, and was very happy to see it updated today
I'm not great at the whole super-detailed turn plans, but for this turn I have to say trying to clear the nest. Hopefully the resistance will be able to fight off the invaders on the planet now that they've lost the orbitals, and while losing the manufactories could be bad they can be rebuilt, and hopefully they can't build anything too nasty, so trying to clear out the old Navigator station seems most pressing to me. Honestly, though, all three are important enough that I would be okay with going after any of them.
[X] Kyssler's Nest
Also, I am in full agreement with those saying we should toss the scrap-code generator into the sun. It has seriously f'd us over multiple times, eventually by sheer probability it's going to get lucky and do real, irreparable damage.
I'm not great at the whole super-detailed turn plans, but for this turn I have to say trying to clear the nest. Hopefully the resistance will be able to fight off the invaders on the planet now that they've lost the orbitals, and while losing the manufactories could be bad they can be rebuilt, and hopefully they can't build anything too nasty, so trying to clear out the old Navigator station seems most pressing to me. Honestly, though, all three are important enough that I would be okay with going after any of them.
[X] Kyssler's Nest
Also, I am in full agreement with those saying we should toss the scrap-code generator into the sun. It has seriously f'd us over multiple times, eventually by sheer probability it's going to get lucky and do real, irreparable damage.
I do hope this is a wake-up call to build a proper military and not just a laughably small amount of infantry with no tanks or anything. Oh, and a brig. We can only save one, because we have nothing.
Really, we need this tech ASAP to destroy these cults before they spread. Give it to W as well.
-[] The Taste of Chaos (300 RP) When investigating the stations in Vorthryn, you found a flavor to the warp signatures hanging around the chaos-corrupted stations. If you do more analysis on it, you might be able to discern some filters that can tell you when a signature is chaos-associated or identify active Chaos-cults through sensors alone (Makes your warp sensors more sensitive to Chaos-associated markers. More useful in detecting cults than individuals, though may unlock further research to screen for cultists who have participated in warp-rituals)
Really, we need this tech ASAP to destroy these cults before they spread. Give it to W as well.
-[] The Taste of Chaos (300 RP) When investigating the stations in Vorthryn, you found a flavor to the warp signatures hanging around the chaos-corrupted stations. If you do more analysis on it, you might be able to discern some filters that can tell you when a signature is chaos-associated or identify active Chaos-cults through sensors alone (Makes your warp sensors more sensitive to Chaos-associated markers. More useful in detecting cults than individuals, though may unlock further research to screen for cultists who have participated in warp-rituals)
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- Location
- colombia
bongo is the easy to handle as far demon standards go
the problem is every other deamon in the warp for wich we dont have ''throw in the sun method",the use of bongo always been to test countermeasures for the later
someone made a list of the massive RP discounts we gotten so far thanks to bongo,without him we likely still be on the basic psyshields,and still vulnerable to scrapcode
getting rid of bongo without having a way to summon new demons is nothing short of crippling our warp research and protections against chaos
there is not off this ride,we must tame this bull,demonology and psy-encryption for bongo
My research priorities are as laid out in the previous post. I want Encryption, hell, I tried to get us Encryption before. But we've got a bit of a crisis going on.
- Location
- USA
At this point? I don't care. Its proving way to harmful in a lot of ways. It needs to be Gone.
[X] Aetherion
I'm sorry, I wanted it gone too. But that was when I thought that throwing it in the nearby black hole would perma-trap it. Since that has been shot down I'm fully on board with binding it so it can't tear down shields and putting it in a station out in the deep black under seer-blocking encrypted shields so the information leak gets plugged.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Dismantling Bongo would let us accelerate psytech development. Most of which are Cia-Related. Researching Bongo further.. Sure, more resistance, but we're already resistant enough that the big danger from Bongo was Bongo breaking out. Do we really need to keep this danger around us when we have extracted basically all the easy value we can get from them?
There are fruits everywhere, the Necron corpse, the Chaos people, more, more, more. Opportunity cost is real. More Bongo means less everything else and I'm kind of foreseeing us reading 'you have optimized your anti scrapcode to where it's nigh immune, mind you were already ridiculously resistant before' if we continue down the Bongo track.
The information leak you speak of can be plugged by like, dismantling Bongo. Chaos already knows everything Bongo knows if we actually treat it like that so the loss this turn is super minimal.
There are fruits everywhere, the Necron corpse, the Chaos people, more, more, more. Opportunity cost is real. More Bongo means less everything else and I'm kind of foreseeing us reading 'you have optimized your anti scrapcode to where it's nigh immune, mind you were already ridiculously resistant before' if we continue down the Bongo track.
The information leak you speak of can be plugged by like, dismantling Bongo. Chaos already knows everything Bongo knows if we actually treat it like that so the loss this turn is super minimal.
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A strategy of Oops! All Reactions will not serve. Like with every other time Bongo has done anything but sit in the cell, this isn't really even a setback.
We are not going to not have problems. We are in fact going to have problems. Reacting only to those problems and doing so by more destruction every time ain't gonna cut it.
We are not going to not have problems. We are in fact going to have problems. Reacting only to those problems and doing so by more destruction every time ain't gonna cut it.
Throw Bongo into the sun = daemon that knows all our operations and our existence is now loose in the immaterium and has a mountain of a grudge against us. What could possibly go wrong?! It would be foolish to do so.
As some people said, part of the reason we were able to just face tank that Psychic assault on the chin and go 'that all?' is because of research on Bongo.
There is no 'safe' option. We ARE going to have to deal with demonic assaults at our mind. Things like us, like us, turned to chaos, broke an Empire that made the Imperium of Man look like a Planety Governor with delusions of grandeur. Making sure these guys died did a lot to prolong the time we're under the radar, but it's not gonna last forever. And we won't just be able to chuck those in the sun. They'll be coming at us to corrupt us, HARD.
(Heck, I can imagine that once they know what's up, every involved Warlord is gonna get a clear vision that the 'prize' for destroying us is an eternity of torment, while if a Warlord saving us from destruction at the hands of other factions gains hella of a lot of favor)
[X] Klyssar's Nest
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I mean right now there's like [the entire crew] of the ship we vaporized who currently have an infinite grudge against us. Who could be potentially ressuructed. Fundamentally we will add more chaos daemons who have infinite grudges against us just by existing. Even if we went chaotic we would still accumulate daemons with grudges against us. We just have to deal. That's just life in 40k when you're a mover and shaker.
Like there was that Chaos Cult we halted, that's like another daemon with a grudge. At the end of the day we'll get enemies whether we like it or not.
- Location
- USA
If it was just that I wouldn't care, but its clearly talking to enemy forces and seems to have been. Well that is a whole other matter, because research we have gotten out of it has been useful. But we are past the point of needing it to keep going.