The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean the action economy can and will change, as will your responsibilities
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
At a guess I can imagine that Westerosi courts would be made up of essentially three tiers. A local tier, which involves lords judging cases between the smallfolk that live in their direct domain, an upper tier, which involves the local lord paramount deciding cases between their subject lords (what we're doing with the Whitehills and Forresters right now) and the Iron Throne, which essentially acts as a final court of appeals for disputes between nobles, as well as handling cases between the Lords Paramount themselves, hence how Aegon IV ended up deciding that land dispute between the Brackens and the Blackwoods depending on who was his favorite mistress at the time. Some of the more populous domains might have an additional tier, as Old Town for example has far too many people for Ormund to judge alone, with Ormund himself acting as a court of appeals for Old Town's smallfolk who have cases that he deems importanr enough to hear personally.
The vast majority of Westerosi case law so far was probably adjudicated by Jaehaerys, who is noted to have essentially founded Westeros' unified legal system. I'd imagine that we're still close enough to the time of Jaehaerys' reign that a litigant saying "the Old King said so!" Is probably still a compelling argument. Jaehaerys himself is noted to have tried to work within Westerosi cultural mores, as seen by how his response to the controversy over his marriage to Alyssane was to try to induce a theological change with his seven septons rather than just overrule the complaints, or how Alyssane had to push him to ban the first night because Jaehaerys was worried that doing so would upset his lords, so I wouldn't be surprised if he also spent a considerable time studying local law that preceded Aegon's conquest to avoid stepping on too many toes when making his decisions, in which case studying his verdicts could probably give us some insight on more regional laws native to The North, The Westerlands etc,etc.
Given Viserys' very laidback reaction to ruling I imagine that he hasn't held court all that often, and under his rule the Iron Throne often either declines to hear appeals of rulings made by the Lords Paramount or that he has Otto handle judgements in appeals in Viserys' stead via his authority as his hand.
This would also explain why Viserys appointed his master of laws, Lyonel Strong, as hand after he sacked Otto in canon. He needed a hand who could pass judgements in his stead.
The vast majority of Westerosi case law so far was probably adjudicated by Jaehaerys, who is noted to have essentially founded Westeros' unified legal system. I'd imagine that we're still close enough to the time of Jaehaerys' reign that a litigant saying "the Old King said so!" Is probably still a compelling argument. Jaehaerys himself is noted to have tried to work within Westerosi cultural mores, as seen by how his response to the controversy over his marriage to Alyssane was to try to induce a theological change with his seven septons rather than just overrule the complaints, or how Alyssane had to push him to ban the first night because Jaehaerys was worried that doing so would upset his lords, so I wouldn't be surprised if he also spent a considerable time studying local law that preceded Aegon's conquest to avoid stepping on too many toes when making his decisions, in which case studying his verdicts could probably give us some insight on more regional laws native to The North, The Westerlands etc,etc.
Given Viserys' very laidback reaction to ruling I imagine that he hasn't held court all that often, and under his rule the Iron Throne often either declines to hear appeals of rulings made by the Lords Paramount or that he has Otto handle judgements in appeals in Viserys' stead via his authority as his hand.
This would also explain why Viserys appointed his master of laws, Lyonel Strong, as hand after he sacked Otto in canon. He needed a hand who could pass judgements in his stead.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
On the other hand, Teen Spirit would have to make those cases up and it would be a pain in the butt.
Yeah, but unless the action economy increases, we're still left juggling a lot of things.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Sorry Alicent, but you're getting fridged for the good of
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's gonna increase. Kind of has to make juggling things once Rhaenyra has kids even remotely possible.
Anyways here's where things stand, will probably let the vote run another 12 hours
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Well teen spirit seems to already have us getting some legal education from Lyonel Strong in mind, so I suppose it'll depend on how deep into detail he'll want to go into such decisions. You could also describe verdicts with extremely brief summaries. For example: "A defendant appeared before Jaehaerys claiming he had killed someone in self defense. Jahaerys ruled against him claiming that defendant failed to prove he was acting in self defense because he hadn't shown Y." And that could be the entirety of what we're told about it.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Some of the stuff you're adding has pretty much already gone? The Gold Cloak Commander and Economics are both things we're kinda trending away from, now that we've potentially set our sights on the Master of Law.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I could be misremembering, but didn't we already make some moves to set ourselves up for being commander of the goldcloaks?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
And then we also made moves to decide to learn the Law in order to become the Master of Law. Goldcloak Commander at best makes it distantly possible we could be on the Council, Master of Law just puts us there.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Anyway:
[X] [First] Side with House Whitehill, Keep the Tolls in place.
[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.
Rather dislike the currently leading write in for first, it feeling that it mostly calls for a middle ground for the sake of getting a middle ground, rather than because a compromise is actually warranted in this case.
[X] [First] Side with House Whitehill, Keep the Tolls in place.
[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.
Rather dislike the currently leading write in for first, it feeling that it mostly calls for a middle ground for the sake of getting a middle ground, rather than because a compromise is actually warranted in this case.
For the First I think court fees would be good.
Half the fee then pay half of that to the Starks.
Unless disproven different declare that road to be a Stark made road and put them in charge of it. Maintenance and tolls.
The second seems easier as have him pay gold, some lashes then go to the Wall.
The Third is kinda complicated as we Cannot look weak as the crime was being caught hunting and killing the deer.
10 or more lashes and him and family have to pay some sort of restitution. Maybe a brand on the hand for the deed as well.
If help was near by why did he wait for it to get so bad?
Either way branding and lashes seem hard enough for most people.
We have money so we may want to "invest in some roads" for a percentage of toll or something in the North.
Maybe discuss ways to help invest more in the North.
Half the fee then pay half of that to the Starks.
Unless disproven different declare that road to be a Stark made road and put them in charge of it. Maintenance and tolls.
The second seems easier as have him pay gold, some lashes then go to the Wall.
The Third is kinda complicated as we Cannot look weak as the crime was being caught hunting and killing the deer.
10 or more lashes and him and family have to pay some sort of restitution. Maybe a brand on the hand for the deed as well.
If help was near by why did he wait for it to get so bad?
Either way branding and lashes seem hard enough for most people.
We have money so we may want to "invest in some roads" for a percentage of toll or something in the North.
Maybe discuss ways to help invest more in the North.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Also as we saw with Lyonel's Strong own appointment as hand it's probably the best small council position to hold if we want to eventually be appointed as hand. As this game mostly goes by show canon, then the Hand of the King can explicitly sit in judgement in place of the king, as seen when Otto presided over the Velaryon inheritance case. Consequently the Master of Laws is a natural person to look to for the next hand when the reigning king is someone who doesn't want to work too hard by often personally holding court.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Macabre, but Daddy will go eventually.
Temes1066
To Defy Gravity you must Let It Go
- Location
- Coleraine
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Anyway some additional information about Westerosi law derived from a number of the supplemental books:
So pre Jaehaerys Westeros wide laws weren't much of a thing, with Aegon mostly allowing the Seven kingdoms to rule themselves as they had prior to the conquest, making a point of studying their local laws rather than changing them. Today in Rhaenyra's time Westeros does have a continent wide code of law authored by Jaehaerys and his small council.
While Septon Barth did contribute a great deal to writing the actual legistlation, I imagine that he only very rarely exercised his authority as hand to sit in judgement. At the time Barth was looked down on a lot for his birth, and when setting the kingdoms' first precedent setting cases it would probably be imperative that the judgements seemed as authoritative as possible. One wonders if perhaps judgements passed by the hand are considered to be less authoritative in terms of precedent than ones passed directly by the king in general.
So pre Jaehaerys Westeros wide laws weren't much of a thing, with Aegon mostly allowing the Seven kingdoms to rule themselves as they had prior to the conquest, making a point of studying their local laws rather than changing them. Today in Rhaenyra's time Westeros does have a continent wide code of law authored by Jaehaerys and his small council.
While Septon Barth did contribute a great deal to writing the actual legistlation, I imagine that he only very rarely exercised his authority as hand to sit in judgement. At the time Barth was looked down on a lot for his birth, and when setting the kingdoms' first precedent setting cases it would probably be imperative that the judgements seemed as authoritative as possible. One wonders if perhaps judgements passed by the hand are considered to be less authoritative in terms of precedent than ones passed directly by the king in general.
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Magnos III
(Unverified Planeswalker)
[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.
[X] [First] Compromise: With no document proving if the road can be tolled or not, you find it reasonable that House Whitehill does so. However, you also find it reasonable that House Forrester is receiving recompense for the actions of the Whitehill armsman. House Whitehill will have to pay for the reconstruction of the dam.
[X] [Second] Execute Him
[X] [Third] Remove his Hand
[X] [Third] Give him the choice; the hand, or the wall.
Approval voting.
[X] [First] Compromise: With no document proving if the road can be tolled or not, you find it reasonable that House Whitehill does so. However, you also find it reasonable that House Forrester is receiving recompense for the actions of the Whitehill armsman. House Whitehill will have to pay for the reconstruction of the dam.
[X] [Second] Execute Him
[X] [Third] Remove his Hand
[X] [Third] Give him the choice; the hand, or the wall.
Approval voting.
[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.
[X] [First] Compromise: With no document proving if the road can be tolled or not, you find it reasonable that House Whitehill does so. However, you also find it reasonable that House Forrester is receiving recompense for the actions of the Whitehill armsman. House Whitehill will have to pay for the reconstruction of the dam.
[X] [First] Compromise: With no document proving if the road can be tolled or not, you find it reasonable that House Whitehill does so. However, you also find it reasonable that House Forrester is receiving recompense for the actions of the Whitehill armsman. House Whitehill will have to pay for the reconstruction of the dam.
SIMPLIFYING THE ACTION ECONOMY IN THREE SIMPLE STEPS - WESTEROSI NOBLES HATE THIS WEIRD TRICK!
Step 1 - Feed "Alicent" and "Dad" to Syrax.
Bonus: Once "Alicent" is gone from the action economy, so too go "music" and "poetry".
Step 2 - Focus on "dragon training" until Syrax is buff enough to eat anyyone who so much as thinks about opposing Rhaenyra.
Step 3 - Once Syrax is that buff, "physical training", "law", "economics", "general scholarly stuff", "actual politics" and "being the Gold Cloak commander" can all be removed from the action economy.
Eternal_0bserver
(Unverified Bookworm)
- Location
- Earth, Northern Europe
It will be interesting to see how exactly the first case will be counted. So far, it seems that the majority is inclined to compromise, but due to disputes over the wording, the third option is currently in the lead.
- Location
- Spain
Yeah, I mean the rest of the votes seems pretty much decided... But the first vote is in an almost three way tie in which the two compromise options are very very similar...
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Crafter of War
The Dorf
- Location
- Bend
[X][First] Compromise: There is no evidence for Forresters' claim that the road should be toll-free. As the Boltons are currently maintaining the road, it is their right to allow the Whitehills to levy tolls along it. So far as this court is concerned, the tolls stand as they are now, not to be altered until the dam is completed. However, the saboteur confessed to being a Whitehill armsman before dying. As the Whitehills apparently have no evidence that the saboteur was not one of their armsmen, they must be held at least partly liable for the sabotage. The court holds that the Whitehills must pay half the costs of the dam reconstruction. The court admonishes the Forresters for having tortured the key witness to death, thus weakening the evidence of their own claims. Hypothetically, if the saboteur was here to testify today, then the Forresters might have been awarded higher damages.
- Location
- Te Ika-a-Māui
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] [First] Side with House Whitehill, Keep the Tolls in place.
[x] [First] Side with the Whitehills and keep the tolls in place. Make it clear to the court that by torturing the sabotager to death the Forresters denied the court the ability to assess his testimony, thus both foiling the court's ability to examine potentially valuable evidence as well as leaving the foresters with no evidence to their claims, forcing you to rule against them.
[x] [Second] Execute Him
[x] [Third] Write-In: Send him to the Gift, to farm the land in bond to the Watch
[x] [First] Side with the Whitehills and keep the tolls in place. Make it clear to the court that by torturing the sabotager to death the Forresters denied the court the ability to assess his testimony, thus both foiling the court's ability to examine potentially valuable evidence as well as leaving the foresters with no evidence to their claims, forcing you to rule against them.
[x] [Second] Execute Him
[x] [Third] Write-In: Send him to the Gift, to farm the land in bond to the Watch
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The disputes between the compromise options are far more fundamental than mere wording. One compromise option makes the factual finding that the saboteur was a Whitehill man, and is thus necessarily admitting, considering, and finding credible the word of a corpse as reported by his killers and their agents. The other compromise option expressly admits that it doesn't have evidence that the saboteur was a Whitehill man, and admonishes the Forresters for destroying that evidence, but gets around that by shifting the burden onto the Whitehills to prove that the saboteur wasn't their man, rather than where it really should belong: with the Forresters to prove that he was. Both compromise options are bad, and both should lose. But more than that, they are so analytically distinct that lumping them together for vote counting purposes would be a travesty.
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