Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Derpmind said:
I disagree. With four actions to use each turn, we've always been able to make room for research. And both exploration and diplomacy are often going to see us find new problems that research can help with. (And new cool stuff that we need to research to use.)
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I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. Yes, we would be able to put an action towards research. We always have found time for it.

But we also can time shift. Smash out exploration actions and diplomacy actions on one turn and then use the exploits of that for a research binge on the next.

That may seem a little backwards at first because of how we've used Anexa's active to solve issues of throughput so far, but once divorced from being under the gun of the mechanicus and the need to crash bootstrap denva and build our ship, we can be more flexible and put our crew to accruing things that produce a higher yield over the long term, which the new passive is broadly about - it'd hardly make much sense if the discounts it produces are smaller than the RP she contributes as an active, after all.

Basically, the question with master of many talents is less whether or not we will have room to do research on every turn and more whether or not we can alter our build orders to take advantage of its buffed passive.

And that, I believe, is a clear cut "yes".
 
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[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

While the other main diplomatic proposal is also good, and is arguably more straightforward in laying out our main points, I'm worried that directly stating from the outset that we are willing to protect this system will come across as staking our claim or sphere of influence on Denva (even if we explicitly state we do not consider ourselves to own it, nor rule it's people, nor do we seek to do either) will be misconstrued by wearily suspicious and likely paranoid Space Marines trying to read between the lines as more aggressive and confrontation than the assertive and matter-of-fact tone the wording is intended to relay.

And under those circumstances they are even more likely to assume an encountered unknown (us) is hostile to them and (what they perceive as) rightful Imperial territory and subjects, encouraging their knee-jerk reaction to open fire and call for reinforcements.

While the 'talk' option I'm voting for is certainly more flowery, and arguably says less in more words, that's probably a safer option when it comes to such delicate introductions where any statement perceived as limiting the Emperor's (and by extension their own) authority and capacity to unilaterally act (even if they never intended to actually invoke such powers) against the people of the Demva system could collapse any talks before they've even begun.

If there's a time and place to give a more poetic recounting of our origins and compliment the Emperor's Angels at the same time, now is likely that time. More substitive talks can wait for the framework of (hopefully) not killing each other to be established, and I think (and hope) this is the right opportunity to do so.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

I'm going to go out on a limb here and wager that more specialities might be worth the trade-off of lower generalised research performance, mechanically and narratively (adding extra emergent character flavour), but I'd honestly be happy with either Jack or Master perks.

[X] Cia: Yes

Part of me wants to try and keep her options more open (albeit less refined/focused), but if I'm advocating a more specialised perk for Anexa based on the narrative potential, it would be a bit inconsistent to shy away from a thematically fitting specialisation for Cia which she has shown an innate inclination towards.
 
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I'm with the camp that says we should be researching so that we can explore, not exploring so that we can research. I get the thrill of unlocking tech but ultimately it's not novel- ooc just go read the wiki if you want to know the full extent of the tech trees. On the other hand, the worlds, the people, and the aliens we are going to find ARE going to be novel and nowhere else documented. And that's three real draw of quests: new things, new perspectives on old things.

-[x] Space Marine: Talk
--[x] "I am Explorer Vita, representing the memory of the Stellar Federation. I am not an enemy of the emperor unless he decrees otherwise. I believe we have much to offer eachother, as I have heard good things about space marines, and would like to negotiate peaceful exchanges of supplies and information if you are willing."

[X] Anexa: High Throughput Researcher

[X] Cia: Yes

Using my actual write-in instead of the more generic version; I expect the QM to change it as needed for narrative but I feel like this gets the point and the tone across better.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. Yes, we would be able to put an action towards research. We always have found time for it.

But we also can time shift. Smash out exploration actions and diplomacy actions on one turn and then use the exploits of that for a research binge on the next.

That may seem a little backwards at first because of how we've used Anexa's active to solve issues of throughput so far, but once divorced from being under the gun of the mechanicus and the need to crash bootstrap denva and build our ship, we can be more flexible and put our crew to accruing things that produce a higher yield over the long term, which the new passive is broadly about - it'd hardly make much sense if the discounts it produces are smaller than the RP she contributes as an active, after all.

Basically, the question with master of many talents is less whether or not we will have room to do research on every turn and more whether or not we can alter our build orders to take advantage of its buffed passive.

And that, I believe, is a clear cut "yes".
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The buffed passive you are talking about gives us like a +2% chance of getting more unique research. Compared to the various advantages of Jack of All knowledge i just dont see it.
 
[X] Cia: Yes
[X] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
i think the general roll bonus to any research is more valuable than a stronger roll bonus to a subset of the tree. especially since we cant control where the specialties go.

[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.
 
meianmaru said:
There is still something to be said about upgrading our ship every now and then, and doings so in a friendly star system with established industry that is compatible with our tech-base. Or you know, just building a completely new one.
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On the whole building industry in another system the only things that would cost more than what we can pay for are spaceships and the bigger space manufactory everything else is pretty cheap compareitvely though if we desperately need combat units here's a reminder of what 500 BP is in bot units looks like right now

1000 Medium Machine-spirit Infantry Bots (75 BP, 20 CP)
1000 Heavy Machine-spirit Infantry Bots (150 BP, 20 CP)
100 Medium Machine-spirit tanks (225 BP, 5 CP)
Add another 30BP for humanizeing the two bots or if we don't care about hiding
1000 Light Machine-spirit infantry bots (30 BP, 20 CP)

If we need more than that a turn we're in a war and if we're in a war alone then we're probably just gonna leave if there are others we can just give them 2 sets of Medium tanks which cost 200BP for 100 and are equivalent to a Leman Russ and then we spend the last 100 on assorted infantry gear enough to load up 2000 with heavy weapons and medium armour and 3000 with medium weapons and armour.
 
I think people should avoid using -[X]'s as bullet points, because what the Tallier sees are line items and that may take some fiddling to get the real result if it wins.

Instead, space marine plans may want to use a single sub item to describe itself.

OfManyForms said:
The buffed passive you are talking about gives us like a +2% chance of getting more unique research. Compared to the various advantages of Jack of All knowledge i just dont see it.
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The main effect of the passive is to accrue discounts on random technologies. That plus 10 gives us better results and fewer failures for that, not just a higher chance of tech unlocks.

It's a long term research throughput optimization.

[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[X] Cia: Yes
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
The main effect of the passive is to accrue discounts on random technologies. That plus 10 gives us better results for that, not just a higher chance of tech unlocks.

It's a long term research throughput optimization.

[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Cia: Yes
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I'm kind of assuming here, but did you mean to vote for Master of Many Talents? Because the actual vote isn't in the post.
 
[X] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge

[X] Cia: Yes

[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[x] The first question is easy enough. You are Vita, an Explorer from the Golden Age of humanity, who awoke from stasis within the last couple centuries. You are, as you have always been, someone who only wants the best for humanity. As for the God-Emperor...well, you predate the Imperium, and as such haven't been raised to worship Him, but...you have learned of the Immaterium since you awoke, of the Enemies of Man. You believe the God-Emperor is a net benefit to mankind. But you're still figuring out exactly where you stand on the Imperial Creed itself.

-[X] Space Marine: Talk
--[X] "I am Explorer Vita, representing the memory of the Stellar Federation. I am not an enemy of the emperor unless he decrees otherwise. I believe we have much to offer eachother, as I have heard good things about space marines, and would like to negotiate peaceful exchanges of supplies and information if you are willing."
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
The main effect of the passive is to accrue discounts on random technologies. That plus 10 gives us better results and fewer failures for that, not just a higher chance of tech unlocks.

It's a long term research throughput optimization.
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Jack of All knowledge gets the same passive. The +10 only applies to 2 out of 15 specialities so we have only like a 13% chance of it applying at all everytime we take the passive action.
 
OfManyForms said:
Jack of All knowledge gets the same passive. The +10 only applies to 2 out of 15 specialities so we have only like a 13% chance of it applying at all everytime we take the passive action.
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...That sounds really awkward, especially because the crit only applies to specialties but the bonus will decide whether or not it's a crit - which would mean a crit caused by the roll would have to be:

1. Roll between 81 and 90 (inclusive)
2. Roll for tech(s) discounted, and have it land on a specialty.
3. Now that it has landed on a specialty, apply +10 to the base roll.
4. The roll is now a crit, so the tech discount roll is discarded and Neablis chooses a tech unlock within the specialty (specialties? The crit can only unlock techs from specialties) instead.

But the tedium doesn't end there - choice of tech and discount degree itself seem like they would be a consequence of the roll, so if you land on a specialty it would almost always produce more work.

And what if it would otherwise be a fail? Does Neablis roll for tech anyways as a saving throw???

Even if you roll for specialty or tech first, the roll still demands additional bookkeeping sometimes, because the result could demand a higher discount than the tech has RP available so now you have to roll again.

As a matter of bookkeeping, that sounds really, really annoying and pointless.

@Neablis , does MoMT apply a +10 to the passive no matter what, or only if it was already a crit or the discount rolled is for a specialty?
 
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Holy shit what is up with this vote, neither line nor block vote tallies can encompass it properly.

Edit:

[X] Cia: No

For now only this since I want Cia to build towards being more than just our muscle. She's too much of meathead already for me to be comfortable with her specking just into the combat Psyker role.
 
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Dmol8 said:
Holy shit what is up with this vote, neither line nor block vote tallies can encompass it properly.
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This:
Prime 2.0 said:
I think people should avoid using -[X]'s as bullet points, because what the Tallier sees are line items and that may take some fiddling to get the real result if it wins.

Instead, space marine plans may want to use a single sub item to describe itself.
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This is what is up with it. One of the space marine diplo write-ins decided to split itself across several line items, and now tallying is pain, lol.

For the future, we should probably review how voting-by-task works and set clearer formatting rules to keep the tallier happy based on that.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
@Neablis , does MoMT apply a +10 to the passive no matter what, or only if it was already a crit or the discount rolled is for a specialty?
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Already answered, I think. It applies only when the random tech discount hits a speciality. Or so the following seems to say:
Nightlord256 said:
I agree the Jack seems more mechanically powerful for our rolls, but the potential to unlock new technology offered by Master of Many calls to me. @Neablis, can we get any insight on how often these unlocks would trigger?
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Neablis said:
Worth clarifying. The passive becomes a roll to discount a random tech by an amount determined by the roll, with specialty bonus applied if the random tech is in one of her specialties.
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meianmaru said:
Already answered, I think. It applies only when the random tech discount hits a speciality. Or so the following seems to say:
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...Wait, so does specialty bonus already apply to the passive action, then? Just at a +5 rather than +10.

Regardless, that's enough to swing it for me.

EDIT: Ninja'd by neablis.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
I've got like, a giant pile of corrections trapped in the multiquote on my phone that I'll get to at some point, but while I'm remembering it, what's the deal with Vita using the term "Xenos" even among her crew? She regarded the term with scorn when she first looked at the archives, I figured she'd just say aliens or something.
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I'm looking forward to getting them. It's not too complicated - it's the common parlance now and she uses it because it's the word in the right language. But you can assume she doesn't believe in all the same connotations an Imperial would.

meianmaru said:
However, I would like to make sure I'm not just putting words to our QM's mouth, so asking: @Neablis am I getting this right, or am I misunderstanding how severe the Wayfarer -trait can get?
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It's totally vibes. If you want to do one exploration action every 5-10 turns and then building a new base in every system, that will be allowed but flavored as Vita being extremely cautious. It's a different way to do exploration.

But you have 4 actions each turn. I was more imagining that most turns would be 1-2 research actions, 1-2 exploration actions, 1-2 diplomacy/looting actions from the last exploration actions.

Negentropy said:
@Neablis can we get Master of Many at level 20 or 30 and get the same doubling of speciality slots, or is it only available at this level 10 breakthrough (and if I understand correctly the doubling would effectively mean that we'd "catch up" to our hypothetical speciality slot capacity to where it would be if we choose Master this turn)?
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The level 20 & 30 bonuses will be different, and based on the choice you took at level 10. I won't comment on them too much right now because I'll have to see how these choices play out, but you could get something like bonus RP on specialties, a general upgrade to the Jack bonus, or things like a hyperfocus on augmentation techs.

DragonParadox said:
I mean maybe, we know the design which means we understand the thing enough to build it at least. @Neablis, can we study teleportation?
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It's behind Immaterium Investigation.

OfManyForms said:
@Neablis does Master of Many Talents keep the RP bonus like its specifically stated in Jack of All knowledge?
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Yes.

OfManyForms said:
I dont think she will get that on her personal passive action because vita isnt involved.
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Yeah, this is correct. But with Jack it'll just be a flat roll.

Prime 2.0 said:
@Neablis , does MoMT apply a +10 to the passive no matter what, or only if it was already a crit or the discount rolled is for a specialty?
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meianmaru said:
Already answered, I think. It applies only when the random tech discount hits a speciality. Or so the following seems to say:
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I think that was a suggestion I'd made without fully thinking it through. It's probably a good way for it to work, but it would be a nightmare to implement. So instead each option slightly changes how the passive works:
[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them). This bonus will apply to her passive action, which will only hit her specialties.
[] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
Anexa now contributes +level/3 (round up) to the research roll in addition to additional RP. Her passive action gets this bonus and can hit any tech, though it's still weighted towards specialties.
[] Anexa: High Throughput Researcher
Anexa contributes +10xlevel RP to research actions. The passive action discounts techs more, but has no bonus. It can hit any tech, but it's weighted towards her specialties.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
...That sounds really awkward, especially because the crit only applies to specialties but the bonus will decide whether or not it's a crit - which would mean a crit caused by the roll would have to be:

1. Roll between 81 and 90 (inclusive)
2. Roll for tech(s) discounted, and have it land on a specialty.
3. Now that it has landed on a specialty, apply +10 to the base roll.
4. The roll is now a crit, so the tech discount roll is discarded and Neablis chooses a tech unlock within the specialty (specialties? The crit can only unlock techs from specialties) instead.

But the tedium doesn't end there - choice of tech and discount degree itself seem like they would be a consequence of the roll, so if you land on a specialty it would almost always produce more work.

And what if it would otherwise be a fail? Does Neablis roll for tech anyways as a saving throw???

Even if you roll for specialty or tech first, the roll still demands additional bookkeeping sometimes, because the result could demand a higher discount than the tech has RP available so now you have to roll again.

As a matter of bookkeeping, that sounds really, really annoying and pointless.

@Neablis , does MoMT apply a +10 to the passive no matter what, or only if it was already a crit or the discount rolled is for a specialty?
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... I thought when we take the passive research Neablis takes a random technology and if that tech is part of our specialitys we get +10 i dont think we choose the passive research?
Edit:ninja
 
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Neablis said:
I think that was a suggestion I'd made without fully thinking it through. It's probably a good way for it to work, but it would be a nightmare to implement. So instead each option slightly changes how the passive works:
[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them). This bonus will apply to her passive action, which will only hit her specialties.
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With this edit Master of Many Talents is much more reliable. Changing over:

[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.
[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
[X] Cia: Yes
 
@Neablis
If we want Daemon burning fire (preferably of the "heavy augmentation + psytech to use remotely" variety) is this specialization split critical or can we get it either way?
 
Neablis said:
I think that was a suggestion I'd made without fully thinking it through. It's probably a good way for it to work, but it would be a nightmare to implement. So instead each option slightly changes how the passive works:
[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them). This bonus will apply to her passive action, which will only hit her specialties.
[] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
Anexa now contributes +level/3 (round up) to the research roll in addition to additional RP. Her passive action gets this bonus and can hit any tech.
[] Anexa: High Throughput Researcher
Anexa contributes +10xlevel RP to research actions. The passive action discounts techs more, but has no bonus.
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I'd say give it a bit more thought, consider language on the degree (if any) to which Jack then lets crit rolls grab new techs from non-specialties, and then make a threadmark to say the vote has been clarified.
 
Neablis said:
The level 20 & 30 bonuses will be different, and based on the choice you took at level 10. I won't comment on them too much right now because I'll have to see how these choices play out, but you could get something like bonus RP on specialties, a general upgrade to the Jack bonus, or things like a hyperfocus on augmentation techs.
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Neablis said:
Yeah, this is correct. But with Jack it'll just be a flat roll.
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Neablis said:
I think that was a suggestion I'd made without fully thinking it through. It's probably a good way for it to work, but it would be a nightmare to implement. So instead each option slightly changes how the passive works:
[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them). This bonus will apply to her passive action, which will only hit her specialties.
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So, MoMT is much more useful if we want to focus on Anexa's specialties. The passive landing on only her currently existing specialities alone makes it already so much more better. And the confirmation on the milestones getting upgraded on 20 and 30 with our available choices being influenced by our level 10 choice? Means that if we want to focus on more narrow field and get more out of it, MoMT is very much the best choice out of all of them, especially in the long term.

Which makes sense, as it is about focusing on specialties instead of a even more spread out field of knowledge. And considering that we put Anexa only into one action per turn, I don't see her strengths being in specialties being a problem. Machine Spirits and the Warp alone are already extremely useful for our current situation.
 
meianmaru said:
So, MoMT is much more useful if we want to focus on Anexa's specialties. The passive landing on only her currently existing specialities alone makes it already so much more better. And the confirmation on the milestones getting upgraded on 20 and 30 with our available choices being influenced by our level 10 choice? Means that if we want to focus on more narrow field and get more out of it, MoMT is very much the best choice out of all of them, especially in the long term.

Which makes sense, as it is about focusing on specialties instead of a even more spread out field of knowledge. And considering that we put Anexa only into one action per turn, I don't see her strengths being in specialties being a problem. Machine Spirits and the Warp alone are already extremely useful for our current situation.
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I dont think its that clear cut, in the long term we get a +15 with Jack for our specialitys compared to +10 of Master, yes that bonus probably gets higher with lvl20/30 but the main problem with master is that we have to get those specialitys with no bonus on a crit in an active action otherwise we will never use the full potential of Master.
Also if we took Jack right now we would have a +9 on our specialitys and it outpaces Master fast.
 
OfManyForms said:
I dont think its that clear cut, in the long term we get a +15 with Jack for our specialitys compared to +10 of Master, yes that bonus probably gets higher with lvl20/30 but the main problem with master is that we have to get those specialitys with no bonus on a crit in an active action otherwise we will never use the full potential of Master.
Also if we took Jack right now we would have a +9 on our specialitys and it outpaces Master fast.
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I'm more looking forward to qualitive changes after the clarifications from Neablis. Because I think we can trust an option that is better at specialties when it says it is all about specialties.

On actually getting the specialties besides what she already have... With Vita's +20 to all research giving range of 76-100 for critting for those rolls? I don't think it will be that much of a problem.
 
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