Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Angle said:
There's also the question of how much efforf needs to be spent to even get into position to loot a tomb world - that seems pretty involved, IMO.
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Depends on how active it is sure the passive defences and sensors would start waking up an active army but it's still doable by a single cruiser of the mechanicus to loot valuable things so we should be able to handle most early responses just a matter of if it's worth poking the bear which it won't be for awhile because we need allot of tech before we can start understand the bullshit of necrons and attacking a tomb world is something you only ever want to do once.
 
Angle said:
There's also the question of how much efforf needs to be spent to even get into position to loot a tomb world - that seems pretty involved, IMO.
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Depends on how damaged it is and how long it takes the occupants to wake up. We would not have to kill all the guards and loot the whole thing, especially since we have the ability to research with fewer samples. Dash in grab something and dash out. Necron tech is so good and so divergent from anything human that practically anything we could take from one is likely to lead to some kind of interesting tech.
 
Neablis said:
It doubles every breakpoint. Without master it's 1 to 2 to 4 to 8. With it it's 4 to 8 to 16.
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@Neablis can we get Master of Many at level 20 or 30 and get the same doubling of speciality slots, or is it only available at this level 10 breakthrough (and if I understand correctly the doubling would effectively mean that we'd "catch up" to our hypothetical speciality slot capacity to where it would be if we choose Master this turn)?
 
Here's how I intend to vote:

[] Space Marine: Talk
-[] Use Vita's green-haired avatar
-[] I am an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[] I am only partially familiar with the Imperium and the Emperor.
-[] We want to make friends, or at least cooperate against mutual threats.
-[] We do not claim ownership of Denva, but we have been working with its inhabitants for their benefit and ours, and we will protect it.

[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[] Cia: Yes

I was swayed by the arguments on Anexa; I had initially favored high-throughput researcher, but I see (via Neablis' comment and those of others) that this other option provides better benefits in the long term that outweigh high-throughput's short-term benefit.
 
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Aineko said:
I'm sure a heap of Necron tech is worth a lot if you can get it, but I'm not at all sure what that worth will look like - I'd guess that you'd mostly need to do research on the samples rather than directly getting discounts for picking them up, since they're way too alien to directly mesh with our tech base.
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Angle said:
There's also the question of how much efforf needs to be spent to even get into position to loot a tomb world - that seems pretty involved, IMO.
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As reminder, I'm using "a Necron Tomb World" as an example on the opposite end of both the risks and the rewards when compared to something like Denva. There should be plenty of both interesting and dangerous places our vicinity, most of them likely not as dangerous as a Tomb World. Yet we could still get much out of even "minor" alien races and their tools and weapons.

On Necrons with their physics-breaking materium-based technology and other xenotech even approaching that level? Or just very advanced DAoT stuff if we run into it? Our character creation choices lean heavily on reverse-engineering weird stuff:
Neablis said:
-[] Reality-simulations (-4 shinies) You can simulate reality well enough to not need as many experiments. +100% base research capacity, +20 bonus to research rolls, reduced sample requirements. For some options you won't need samples to unlock research.
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Neablis said:
-[] A Fundamental Physics Module (-1 shiny) You have a deep understanding of the fundamental physics of the universe. Grants significant bonuses to understanding and replicating technology based on different principles than you're familiar with. If you want to reverse-engineer Necron tech, you'll need this. It will also help a lot with understanding & reverse engineering other weird shit you find.
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Neablis said:
Reality-Simulations - +100% base research capacity, +20 bonus to research rolls, reduced sample requirements. For some options you won't need samples to unlock research.

A Fundamental Physics Module - You have a deep understanding of the fundamental physics of the universe. Grants significant bonuses to understanding and replicating technology based on different principles than you're familiar with.
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So putting in the actual effort to explore and get samples is very much worth it for us, as doing so will allow us to use our core strengths. But with the combination of both Reality-Simulations and Physics Module? On top of samples being very useful for us, I think it is very likely we are able to glean insights translating to discounts from just getting sensor readings on sufficiently advanced weapons being used against our bots.
 
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Neablis said:
Then it's time to get into the warp abacus, and you and Anexa pick up where you left off. She's just as confused as you were about how the quantum uncertainty collapses to provide the data that the rest of the instrument parses, but now you've got the time and distance to give the problem another try and maybe find a new answer.

Immediately Anexa helps out as she points out something you hadn't seen before - the arrangement of qubits isn't the standard grid that is optimized for the fastest and lowest-error quantum computations. Instead the qubits are laid out in spirals and are only entangled with a couple of others and connected to various nodes at either end. It's a detail you'd dismissed before as irrelevant, but once Anexa stretches out the spirals and highlights the nodes the graph takes on a whole new apperance.

"They look like nerves. Is it another neural network? But of qubits."

Anexa studies the enormously complicated holograph. In this display it looks almost like a starmap, with each system connected by strings of glowing lights. She tilts her head back and forth, studying it from different angles. "Kind of. It reminds me of how machine spirits are designed."

She uses her implants to access the controls on the display, highlighting a portion of it. "See how this portion is fairly disconnected from the rest? It's a much denser graph there, without a lot of connections out of it."

"Ah." You see what she's saying, and quickly run some graph analysis, segregating the whole network into about two-dozen different nodes. "So... it's like a machine spirit?"

"Not quite. Overall the complexity is much lower than an individual machine spirit - but it can do entanglement for interference." She spreads her hands in a shrug. "I don't know what that allows for."

You smile, maybe with a slightly manic edge. "Let's find out."

And you do. Over the course of the next few months you believe you understand how each module simulates a different course, then entangles with all of the other courses. Then the whole system collapses to a single state that represents the correct next course. The abacus is holding to the truth that some kind of thought is required to have a psychic presence, but it's coming at it from a pretty different direction from the other examples you have - most notably machine spirits and your psychic shielding.

Still, the Insights you've learned both pave the way for you to begin examining the science of the Warp, as well as trying to improve on the design of the warp abacus. There's also some potential interesting leads for understanding what precisely about neural networks let them have psychic weights.

Researched Abacus-Warp interactions - rolled 79+20=99, Critical Success!
You understand how the Void Abacus consults the warp for directions. It's weird.
+2 Anexa Levels, she's now level 11, and has picked up a second Specialty - The Warp. Vote below on how she develops at level 10 - separate from plan vote.
New Research unlocked - Immaterium Investigations (200 RP)
New Research unlocked - Improved Void Abacus (300 RP)
Bonus Research unlocked - The Basics of Psychic Computation (600 RP)
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This right here?

It means that if we hook up that Navigator kid we have after birthing them to the Void Abacus to use as training wheels instead of one of their Elders they will have the ability to use that Timeslide ability at full range which is measured in lightyears instead of a few dozens meters which is the highest modern Navigators dare to use that ability.

It also explains why the Navigators have that Timeslide ability in the first place: It is an exaptation that bridges the Shallow Warp Travel of a younger humanity and the Deep Warp Travel Navigators are used for.

This means that the Navigators have been shooting themselves in the foot by destroying Void Abacuses when they are found.

This was one of the possible solutions for the relationship between Navigators and Void Abacuses in Canon, but in this Quest it is Canon. Great, Teleportation Research is a lot closer than I thought it would be.

Edit: A punctuation error.
 
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I was trying to think of a good way to compare the quantity upgrade of High Throughput Researcher with the quality upgrade of Master of Many Talents and had the idea of looking at Anexas past rolls and seeing how a +10 would have affected them. This is a bit generous as you need to be in specialty to get the +10 but I think it works for comparison's stake. Here are all Anexa's reaserch rolls and what they would be with an added +10 bonus.

Brain Implants: 73 Good success --> 83 Good success
Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking: 1 critical autofail --> 1 critical autofail
Organ Replacements: 22 Poor success --> 32 Poor success
Biology is kinda wet: 39 Success --> 49 Success
A Study of Physics: 86 Good Success --> 96 Critical success
Secrets of the Machine Spirits: 96 Critical success --> 106 Critical success
miniaturized psychic shields: 59 Success --> 69 Good success
Improved Psychic shielding: 25 Poor success --> 35 Poor success
Abacus-Warp interactions: 99 Critical Success --> 109 Critical Success

Its interesting to look at. Out of the nine techs we researched two would have increased a tier with a +10. Higher results may also have some other effects as Neablis does mention how close a roll is to a tier affects the outcome. Anexa may have also gained an additional level or two. In comparison if Anexa produced double the research points we would have gotten an additional 265 RP to spend, easily enough to research another tech or two. In my opinion the raw RP of High Throughput Researcher outweighs the quality improvement from Master of Many but I would be interested to see other peoples thoughts.
 
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Questwolf said:
In my opinion the raw RP of High Throughput Researcher out ways the quality improvement from Master of Many but I would be interested to see other peoples thoughts.
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That's good thinking! For me, it came down to two factors. No. 1, we can increase RP by spending building points — building labs and such things. I don't think there's an equivalent way to increase rolls by spending BP.

No. 2, we currently get a bonus of 55 RP from Anexa. Increasing that to 110 via high-throughput researcher is a difference of only 55. That's barely over a quarter of one research action right now. It doesn't seem like enough gain to be worthwhile.

That's my thinking on it.

(Edited to fix wrong number re: @DragonParadox)
 
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Questwolf said:
I was trying to think of a good way to compare the quantity upgrade of High Throughput Researcher with the quality upgrade of Master of Many Talents and had the idea of looking at Anexas past rolls and seeing how a +10 would have affected them. This is a bit generous as you need to be in specialty to get the +10 but I think it works for comparison's stake. Here are all Anexa's reaserch rolls and what they would be with an added +10 bonus.

Brain Implants: 73 Good success --> 83 Good success
Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking: 1 critical autofail --> 1 critical autofail
Organ Replacements: 22 Poor success --> 32 Poor success
Biology is kinda wet: 39 Success --> 49 Success
A Study of Physics: 86 Good Success --> 96 Critical success
Secrets of the Machine Spirits: 96 Critical success --> 106 Critical success
miniaturized psychic shields: 59 Success --> 69 Good success
Improved Psychic shielding: 25 Poor success --> 35 Poor success
Abacus-Warp interactions: 99 Critical Success --> 109 Critical Success

Its interesting to look at. Out of the nine techs we researched two would have increased a tier with a +10. Higher results may also have some other effects as Neablis does mention how close a roll is to a tier affects the outcome. Anexa may have also gained an additional level or two. In comparison if Anexa produced double the research points we would have gotten an additional 265 RP to spend, easily enough to research another tech or two. In my opinion the raw RP of High Throughput Researcher outweighs the quality improvement from Master of Many but I would be interested to see other peoples thoughts.
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Or, to do the math.
Our current research result range is the following, taking into the +20 bonus and Anexa's existing +5 mastery bonus

1 : Fail => 1%
2-10 Poor success => 9%
11-40 Success => 30%
41-65 Good success => 25%
66+ critical success. => 35%

So, what does that extra bonus do. Well, it reduces the chance of poor success by 5, and increases the chance of critical success by 5.
The odds of everything else remain exactly the same, the table just moves a bit, you only see the difference at the edges.
 
I still dont see Master of Many Talents being better. I want it to be better because i love the idea of more unique research but we have already gotten unique options through normal crits which would occur more often with Jack of All knowledge.

What we get right now with,
Jack of All knowledge
+55 RP
+9 on Warp and Machine Spirit research
+4 on all other research
vs
Master of Many Talents
+55 RP(?)
+10 on Warp and Machine Spirit research
+2 Speciality slots
+more unique research opportunities (passive/active)

What we get in the future(lvl 20) with,
Jack of All knowledge
+100 RP
+12 on Warp and Machine Spirit research +2 other specialities
+7 on all other research
vs
Master of Many Talents
+100 RP(?)
+10 on Warp and Machine Spirit research +6 other specialities (that we aquire at random)
+more unique research opportunities (passive/active)

@Neablis does Master of Many Talents keep the RP bonus like its specifically stated in Jack of All knowledge?

[] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
Anexa now contributes +level/3 (round up) to the research roll in addition to additional RP
[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
Doubles specialty capacity & bonuses (so will be able to have 4 specialties, and each give +10 to the dice roll and potentially unlock new technologies when she uses them)

The thing with the passive action being better is that we almost never miss out on research in a turn and when you look at the math, especially when in the future we get a bunch more specialities its not really worth it.
(2/15)Specialities 13% to even get on of our specialities at random where we then have to crit with only a +10 which is probably something like 2% overall to get new research.

That in addition to the fact that we will have to take many research actions with no bonus at all to get new specialities (about 3-4 per speciality) and we cant guarantee what speciality we get. Or we just get random specialities that might not be relevant or interesting. In the time where we are speciality hunting we would be unrestrained in what we research with Jack of All knowledge and get a decent increase in new unique technology in the form of crits.
 
OfManyForms said:
That in addition to the fact that we will have to take many research actions with no bonus at all to get new specialities (about 3-4 per speciality)
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Oh yeah, I didn't think of that.

Master of Many Talents is self sabotaging. In order to get your talents in order, you need to roll on research where the bonus does not apply.
OfManyForms said:
where we then have to crit with only a +10
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Isn't our research bonus + 20?
 
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[] Anexa: High Throughput Researcher
This is the best choice if we assign her to research existing specialities (Warp, Machine Spirits) where she has a bonus to the roll. It will significantly accelerate our progress in those areas, and more technology is always better. IMO this is the best choice for now but we should pick a different choice at level 20.

[] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
In the long term this will become the best option by far, at level 30 with 16 specialties we could leave her on passive and get a regular drip of bonus techs.
However it is dependant on crits to gain those specialties. It means assigning her to research a number of techs without any bonus to the die, and with bad luck we could have many poor successes/fails before we roll a crit success.

[] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
Simplest option, just a small bonus to the roll of every tech she helps research. While pretty good I would still place it behind the other two.

[] Cia: No
Strategic level champion, the glass cannon choice. We don't train her in personal combat but instead control over her powers.
In ground battle she stands behind our combat bots acting as heavy artillery wearing power armour that amps her abilities. Eventually we build her a spaceship specialised in boosting her pyromancy.
[] Cia: Yes
Melee champion. We let her practice against our bots now and she will become very good at personal combat.

We could also train her as a commander, but I don't think that fits her character. I would prefer an AI commander as most of our forces will be machines.


[] Space Marine: Talk (The first question is easy enough. You are Vita, an Explorer from the Golden Age of humanity, who awoke from stasis within the last couple centuries. You are, as you have always been, someone who only wants the best for humanity. As for the God-Emperor...well, you predate the Imperium, and as such haven't been raised to worship Him, but...you have learned of the Immaterium since you awoke, of the Enemies of Man. You believe the God-Emperor is a net benefit to mankind. But you're still figuring out exactly where you stand on the Imperial Creed itself.)
 
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[] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge

[] Cia: Yes

[] Space Marine: Talk (The first question is easy enough. You are Vita, an Explorer from the Golden Age of humanity, who awoke from stasis within the last couple centuries. You are, as you have always been, someone who only wants the best for humanity. As for the God-Emperor...well, you predate the Imperium, and as such haven't been raised to worship Him, but...you have learned of the Immaterium since you awoke, of the Enemies of Man. You believe the God-Emperor is a net benefit to mankind. But you're still figuring out exactly where you stand on the Imperial Creed itself.)
 
Chrestomanci said:
[] Anexa: High Throughput Researcher
This is the best choice if we assign her to research existing specialities (Warp, Machine Spirits) where she has a bonus to the roll. It will significantly accelerate our progress in those areas, and more technology is always better. IMO this is the best choice for now but we should pick a different choice at level 20.
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I disagree, foundational research is way to important. The amount of discounts and new technologies we get through better rolls is way better than an additional 55 RP. We have multiple to go through and we only get them at the beginning. Thats also why i think Jack of All knowledge is better, with Master of Many Talents we dont get that initial boost. Now is the best time to get Jack.
 
Nicolay said:
[] Space Marine: Talk (The first question is easy enough. You are Vita, an Explorer from the Golden Age of humanity, who awoke from stasis within the last couple centuries. You are, as you have always been, someone who only wants the best for humanity. As for the God-Emperor...well, you predate the Imperium, and as such haven't been raised to worship Him, but...you have learned of the Immaterium since you awoke, of the Enemies of Man. You believe the God-Emperor is a net benefit to mankind. But you're still figuring out exactly where you stand on the Imperial Creed itself.)
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I really do not think we should mention Chaos even obliquely and as an oppositional force, not on a first meeting
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Use Vita's green-haired avatar
-[X] I am an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[X] I am only partially familiar with the Imperium and the Emperor.
-[X] I want to make friends and cooperate against mutual threats.
-[X] I do not claim ownership of Denva, but I have been working with its inhabitants for their benefit and ours, and I will protect it.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[X] Cia: Yes
 
Alectai said:
-[] Space Marine: Talk
--[] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

Basically Glau's write-in, but not trying to directly micromanage what we're saying.
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Alectai said:
Anyway, since it's on topic now, I'm inclined to go with this for the other votes.
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I'm once again copying @Alectai's work, in this case his write-in. Its simple and gets the message across, while still hiding the most important detail of Vita being an AI behind the obfuscation of her being a pre-Imperium human. I'm agreeing to this approach, because considering that the Imperium abandoned this position? It implies something much worse being near Denva. At least trying to see if we can get even tentative long-term allies is a good idea. Could be that immediately after hearing that Vita is an Ancient the space marines jump away and come back with a bigger force to try to purge us, but I feel this is still worth the attempt.

On Anexa's milestones, I've come around liking Master of Many Talents. Passive upgrade alone is pretty damn good for when we become more busy. The any potentially unlocked techs are bound to be good, and larger discounts are always useful. And considering that we are likely to be leaving Denva very soon, I think that Exploration/Diplomacy is going to be taking a pretty big chunk out of our action economy. With Construction/Order most likely taking quite a lot of our attention too.

Here is what Neablis had to say on it:
Neablis said:
So, Master of Many Talents means that she'll discover new techs from her specialties more often/better.
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Neablis said:
Worth clarifying. The passive becomes a roll to discount a random tech by an amount determined by the roll, with specialty bonus applied if the random tech is in one of her specialties.

If that roll is a crit (including the specialty bonus), then instead she unlocks a bonus tech from one of her specialties, as if you'd crit during a research action.

I'll note that the bonus techs unlocked by crits are good. The ones that come to mid are OMC and psychic computation. Both rather good techs.

But - what's the best way to get them? More bonuses to reaearch, or passive rolls?
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Meanwhile, what to do with Cia has been clear to me since day one. She is built for being a champion and wants to be a champion. We should encourage it. Because hero units do actually matter quite a lot, even with the ridiculously large battles and wars of the setting.

[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents
[X] Cia: Yes
 
Seems like a decent plan.
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Explain who you are, that you're an explorer from what is--by now--a very long dead human state, and you certainly aren't an enemy of the Emperor or plan to become one if you have any say over the matter. You've heard fairly positive things about the Adeptus Astartes though from checking through some archives, and you're willing to discuss some means where you can work out some level of reasonable cooperation--goodness knows everything looks like it's turned into an outright mess since you were forced to take a very long nap.

[X] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge
[X] Cia: Yes
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Use Vita's green-haired avatar
-[X] I am an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[X] I am only partially familiar with the Imperium and the Emperor.
-[X] I want to make friends and cooperate against mutual threats.
-[X] I do not claim ownership of Denva, but I have been working with its inhabitants for their benefit and ours, and I will protect it.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[X] Cia: Yes
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Use Vita's green-haired avatar
-[X] I am an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[X] I am only partially familiar with the Imperium and the Emperor.
-[X] We want to make friends, or at least cooperate against mutual threats.
-[X] We do not claim ownership of Denva, but we have been working with its inhabitants for their benefit and ours, and we will protect it.

ok I like this it hits all the points we need to for an initial contact

[X] Anexa: Jack of All knowledge

I prefer this over master of many because master requires crits in things that aren't Anexa speciality to become more useful which means not researching stuff she already has got speciality in so we can put her on them latter
honestly master will fuck over our research votes as people try to min max getting Anexa specialities

[X] Cia: Yes

We have armies which we do not care if they end up getting ground up in army to army actions as long as we have the opportunity to replace them champions are harder to counter with numbers and will just walk all over our troops if we let them.
 
[X] Space Marine: Talk
-[X] Use Vita's green-haired avatar
-[X] I am an explorer who came out of stasis.
-[X] I am only partially familiar with the Imperium and the Emperor.
-[X] I want to make friends and cooperate against mutual threats.
-[X] I do not claim ownership of Denva, but I have been working with its inhabitants for their benefit and ours, and I will protect it.

[X] Anexa: Master of Many Talents

[X] Cia: Yes
 
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