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Scrambled Eggs. A Sonic X Sega All Star Villains CK2 Quest

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TheSnekMan said:
The reason we're giving em one of the zeti is mostly cause it makes zavok have to do two separate actions to get em back
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This addresses nothing I said. Consider why we do not even need to roll dice to convince Towers that taking Zomon is worth releasing Thunderbolt. Towers is not here to make a fair deal. Eggman killed him. Eggman just told him that he plans to crush GUN. He is here to make a deal that massively favors GUN.

Getting a zeti in exchange for Thunderbolt massively favors GUN and will put them in a good position to attack us. Especially with Chuck being released to the Restoration. GUN and the Resistance might dislike each other, but they loathe Eggman far more than they dislike each other.

Alatie said:
We're already going to reasearch a way to counter the magnitism. Giving someone a weapon that will be useless to them isn't a bad deal.

And guys...remember the Giselle situation? The whole get an extremely powerful unit and information on a world threat for no cost in the begining? And instead we got Rusty.

We are being given a golden oppertunity guys, the worst possible senario to giving as many demands as we can is they say no to that demand and we move on losing nothing.
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What. In what world is Thunderbolt comparable to Giselle? She's a Tier 1 unit! That's a horrible comparison! That is absolutely incomparable to Giselle being stated to be plot relevant and potentially powerful! We know Thunderbolt is none of those things!

Kingster said:
Tier 1
[ ] Ro the Kangaroo

[ ]Honey the Cat

[ ]Zobio and Zobiko

[ ]Thunderbolt The Chinchilla
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MrHobbit said:
This addresses nothing I said. Consider why we do not even need to roll dice to convince Towers that taking Zomon is worth releasing Thunderbolt. Towers is not here to make a fair deal. Eggman killed him. Eggman just told him that he plans to crush GUN. He is here to make a deal that massively favors GUN.

Getting a zeti in exchange for Thunderbolt massively favors GUN and will put them in a good position to attack us. Especially with Chuck being released to the Restoration. GUN and the Resistance might dislike each other, but they loathe Eggman far more than they dislike each other.


What. In what world is Thunderbolt comparable to Giselle? She's a Tier 1 unit! That's a horrible comparison! That is absolutely incomparable to Giselle being stated to be plot relevant and potentially powerful! We know Thunderbolt is none of those things!
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May I remind you what happened to the last army that was lead by our hard counter?

We crushed them.

I'm not particularly worried about the good guys. I'm more interested in how we can use them for our own interests.


And I'm not comparing Thunderbolt to Giselle I'm comparing this entire deal to the Giselle situation.

GUN would happily help us with our most important and difficult actions next turn for next to nothing and for some reason people don't want that!
 
Kingster said:
Also, reminder that even if that's how they are in canon, in quest things CAN and WILL Change, Towers may mean good but tthings arent as black or white or as clear as you may think.

I Know you out GUN in a pedestal and its fine to do that, but just becauswe you have an image of GUN it doesnt mean thats how they are in quest, like at all.
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Question:
Does this work in the "opposite" direction? Eggman has consistently shown to pump out whole mechanical armies and is extremely resourceful as a leader. In the post shattering world.. maybe some GUN operatives want to take more "direct" control of the planet?

Would certainly be a coup if we can turn some of GUN into the Armed Forces of the Eggman Empire.
 
Kingster said:
No offense Soberan, but as Boohoo said, please stop with the glazing of G.U.N. Its making me unconfortable too.

Will say this, even if canon GUN Are teh the good guys, the ark incident still happened, doesn't matter if the membersa involved arent part of GUN Anymore, any organization can be corrupted or fuck up, GUN isnt inmune to that an dthing may cha nge in the quest.

Also, reminder that even if that's how they are in canon, in quest things CAN and WILL Change, Towers may mean good but tthings arent as black or white or as clear as you may think.

I Know you out GUN in a pedestal and its fine to do that, but just becauswe you have an image of GUN it doesnt mean thats how they are in quest, like at all.
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I going to have to adress this.

I do not put GUN in a pedestal and I am very much aware of their mistakes and flaws.

I even write a omake about Towers and Walters have a very awkaward relentioship because of they respective experiences with the Ark Incident and the fact the former was very tempt to kill the latter for it.

I just don't get people want to demonize them all the time.

TheSnekMan said:
The reason we're giving em one of the zeti is mostly cause it makes zavok have to do two separate actions to get em back
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Also Thundebolt can even mention Grimer if she remebers him then, if people want, stage a break out.

Thunderbolt is a... mostly innocent person trow in jail. That dice is high because Towers will have to move a lot of people to be able to release her since a alternative version of hers was a general and we have to have a heck of a silver thong to make Towers kick that hornet nest to not only release her but under our care as well.

Zomon would silence any doubt and would see as a fair trade to many.

Also just because she's a tier 1 Hero does not mean we can't help grow her stats. It would take work but is totally possible and she does have a spcieliazarion in eletronics.

MrHobbit said:
This addresses nothing I said. Consider why we do not even need to roll dice to convince Towers that taking Zomon is worth releasing Thunderbolt. Towers is not here to make a fair deal. Eggman killed him. Eggman just told him that he plans to crush GUN. He is here to make a deal that massively favors GUN.

Getting a zeti in exchange for Thunderbolt massively favors GUN and will put them in a good position to attack us. Especially with Chuck being released to the Restoration. GUN and the Resistance might dislike each other, but they loathe Eggman far more than they dislike each other.
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Did you just ignore the whole interlude where Towers wants Eggman help in fighting Black Doom?

He very much would be willing to take that Yes and go home.

This is are further demands we, as Eggman, are making to Towers.
 
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Alatie said:
May I remind you what happened to the last army that was lead by our hard counter?

We crushed them.

I'm not particularly worried about the good guys. I'm more interested in how we can use them for our own interests.


And I'm not comparing Thunderbolt to Giselle I'm comparing this entire deal to the Giselle situation.

GUN would happily help us with our most important and difficult actions next turn for next to nothing and for some reason people don't want that!
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GUN is far more strategic and intelligent than Zavok was being. We were only in a position to crush Zavok because he was explicitly being stupid about attacking us. GUN has a lot more capability to replicate. Hell, we're giving them an easier ability to study their technopathy than we are keeping for ourselves. Who do you think will be easier to prod into being a lab rat? Zomon or Zeena? Who would be harder for us to keep captive?

It's still a bad comparison though. The starter vote was designed to be equal all around. We're not going to unlock special stuff from trying to get their help in breaking Chuck out. We lose stuff even because his discoveries explicitly get shared with them. We don't even need to break Chuck out if we decide not to if it comes down to it. We can go loud from our secret base and obviate the blackmail entirely. We can get the Conch and attack the Zeti's stronghold. That help is useful, but it is far from necessary.

Soberan 123 said:
Did you just ignore the whole interlude where Towers very much wants Eggman help in fighting Black Doom?

He very much would be willing to take that Yes and go home.

This is are further demands we, as Eggman, are making to Towers.
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Yes, fighting Black Doom. That interlude was specific that the ceasefire was to gain insights into Eggman for future fights down the road. Towers is able to turn down Eggman's offers without rejecting the deal. That's why getting Thunderbolt released to us is a DC90 check. We would still be agreeing to the deal, but Towers would reject releasing Thunderbolt.

But with GUN getting Zomon, releasing a Tier 1 hero to Eggman is suddenly worth it. Especially because GUN has other Eggman affiliated prisoners that they would never release to Eggman that not even a zeti would be worth it.
 
MrHobbit said:
GUN is far more strategic and intelligent than Zavok was being. We were only in a position to crush Zavok because he was explicitly being stupid about attacking us. GUN has a lot more capability to replicate. Hell, we're giving them an easier ability to study their technopathy than we are keeping for ourselves. Who do you think will be easier to prod into being a lab rat? Zomon or Zeena? Who would be harder for us to keep captive?
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Do we know why we are giving Zomon?

Because the guys is a idiot. He's not very imaginative with his powers and has a very low mystics to control machines. No only that he would barely has information on the Deadly Six operations.

Zenna is smart, she has brains, but easily mnaipulated once you know what buttons to push to be docile and participate in our experimenta as long we don't go overboard and have information on the Deadly Six meaning we can use her to acquire useful, albeit outdated, information.

For example the whole deal with Zor.

At best they would get from Zomon would be ability to resist Zeti powers of they robotic forces.

Like we are the ones pulling a fast over GUN by getting rid of a useless prisioner while keeping the real valuable for ourselves.

Edit: go back tot he Wave 1 and 2 rolls and you can easily find out Zomon has a mystic stats of 2.

2.

If he were mano a mano against Metal I actually give Metal good odds to resist his control.
 
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MrHobbit said:
GUN is far more strategic and intelligent than Zavok was being. We were only in a position to crush Zavok because he was explicitly being stupid about attacking us. GUN has a lot more capability to replicate. Hell, we're giving them an easier ability to study their technopathy than we are keeping for ourselves. Who do you think will be easier to prod into being a lab rat? Zomon or Zeena? Who would be harder for us to keep captive?
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I'm actually pondering a way to turn that against them. You see, we are currently scheduled to have a bunch of Darcsen working under the Eggman Empire, but what if we expand that?

GUN knows what Eggman can do left to his own devices, and the blasted hedgehog isnt in any state to be able to stop Eggman if we start snowballing. The GMs have been hinting at a lot of internal strife within GUN.. and via various portrayals can be quite ruthless. So, what if Eggman gives the rank and file an offer to join the Eggman Empire? The Darcsen will prove Eggmans actually serious about incorporating organic recruits. That and with how many times Eggmans actually beat the crap out of GUN.. if the doctor is offering a way out, why not take it?
 
MrHobbit said:
GUN is far more strategic and intelligent than Zavok was being.
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They are yes, which is why they won't screw us over. They already know what happens to someone when they screw with the doctor.

And even if they do it'll be later when we're stronger.

MrHobbit said:
It's still a bad comparison though. The starter vote was designed to be equal all around. We're not going to unlock special stuff from trying to get their help in breaking Chuck out. We lose stuff even because his discoveries explicitly get shared with them. We don't even need to break Chuck out if we decide not to if it comes down to it. We can go loud from our secret base and obviate the blackmail entirely. We can get the Conch and attack the Zeti's stronghold. That help is useful, but it is far from necessary.
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I will concede that we don't necessarily need to go and rescue Chuck next turn, but getting Chuck out of their hands is something we need to do to beat the Zeti.

Why are you suggesting we not do everything we can to cripple the Zeti.

Getting our Empire back is absolutely worth a possible enemy getting something that we will get as well.

MrHobbit said:
Yes, fighting Black Doom. That interlude was specific that the ceasefire was to gain insights into Eggman for future fights down the road. Towers is able to turn down Eggman's offers without rejecting the deal. That's why getting Thunderbolt released to us is a DC90 check. We would still be agreeing to the deal, but Towers would reject releasing Thunderbolt.

But with GUN getting Zomon, releasing a Tier 1 hero to Eggman is suddenly worth it. Especially because GUN has other Eggman affiliated prisoners that they would never release to Eggman that not even a zeti would be worth it.
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Fighting Black Doom carries the necessary collary that we work together toward that end. They can't do that if they double cross us.

Zomon is useless to us when we have another Zeti, and worst the trade would be equal and we both think we screwed each other over.


And above all else The deal is contingent on us agreeing. Gun came too us, not the other way around. This gives us a lot more power than you seem to think.

I'm not saying we trust them. I'm saying we use them for all their worth and use their inevitable betrayal against them after we've squeesed every once of worth out of them!

Freak A Nature said:
I'm actually pondering a way to turn that against them. You see, we are currently scheduled to have a bunch of Darcsen working under the Eggman Empire, but what if we expand that?

GUN knows what Eggman can do left to his own devices, and the blasted hedgehog isnt in any state to be able to stop Eggman if we start snowballing. The GMs have been hinting at a lot of internal strife within GUN.. and via various portrayals can be quite ruthless. So, what if Eggman gives the rank and file an offer to join the Eggman Empire? The Darcsen will prove Eggmans actually serious about incorporating organic recruits. That and with how many times Eggmans actually beat the crap out of GUN.. if the doctor is offering a way out, why not take it?
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Like this. We're a genius remember? One of the hallmarks of a mastermind are too use the enemies own moves against them.

We can't do that if we refuse to even deal with them.



Actually you know what. @Kingster @Boohoo the 3rd @ShepardCom could you weigh in on this mess?

Just to be absolutely clear what we are doing?
 
Alatie said:
Like this. We're a genius remember? One of the hallmarks of a mastermind are too use the enemies own moves against them.

We can't do that if we refuse to even deal with them.
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Yeah, it's a long term move but it will certainly help us expand rapidly. Even get familiarity with foreign tech and magic if we grab populations who already use it.

...also may terrify the hell out of Sonics friends as Eggman is pulling a Rome. If they try and depose the guy who's actually treating everyone decently. Suddenly they look like the villains. Imagine Eggman rubbing it into Tails face that the fox is the villain here..
 
Alatie said:
Like this. We're a genius remember? One of the hallmarks of a mastermind are too use the enemies own moves against them.

We can't do that if we refuse to even deal with them.



Actually you know what. @Kingster @Boohoo the 3rd @ShepardCom could you weigh in on this mess?
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You mean subvert GUN and make them Join the Empire?

Would be tought, specially cause Eggman would not be that willing to do that instead of crush them, he would need to be convinced of that, that it's worth actually subverting gun instead of getting some use out of them and then destroy them

Of course, doing that will be hella difficult, theres rivers of bad blood between eggman and them. You would need deep infiltration of them, cause some strife, deal with the leadership and them come with your offers.

It's a real long term investment, but could work, but yeah, this is a multiple turn project, and one that GUN coiuld discover and interfering if you are not careful
 
Kingster said:
You mean subvert GUN and make them Join the Empire?

Would be tought, specially cause Eggman would not be that willing to do that instead of crush them, he would need to be convinced of that, that it's worth actually subverting gun instead of getting some use out of them and then destroy them

Of course, doing that will be hella difficult, theres rivers of bad blood between eggman and them. You would need deep infiltration of them, cause some strife, deal with the leadership and them come with your offers.

It's a real long term investment, but could work, but yeah, this is a multiple turn project, and one that GUN coiuld discover and interfering if you are not careful
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...I actually wanted your word on this whole argument we've been having about how much to go for, but thanks for the idea.


Seriously though could you please confirm that *waves hand* this whole mess isn't some high stakes chess game.

We're just asking for what we want in addition to the agreement. If it fails then we lose nothing and still get the agreement right?


Edit: I don't want another Giselle situaiton.
 
Kingster said:
It's a real long term investment, but could work, but yeah, this is a multiple turn project, and one that GUN coiuld discover and interfering if you are not careful
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Yeah. I imagine it only really having a chance when it's clear Eggmans got his power back. Then again it certainly seems like it would be in character for Eggman to offer a chance to surrender before he obliterates you.

Largest scale variety of that he did involved the moon.
 
Alatie said:
...I actually wanted your word on this whole argument we've been having about how much to go for, but thanks for the idea.


Seriously though could you please confirm that *waves hand* this whole mess isn't some high stakes chess game.

We're just asking for what we want in addition to the agreement. If it fails then we lose nothing and still get the agreement right?


Edit: I don't want another Giselle situaiton.
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Oh sorry misunderstood.

Well... Not really? Like it's as the interlude said. Towers is coming to eggman asking for assistance against Black Doom. He recognizes he is the bigger threat and is willing to out aside their disputes to focus on him, he is that big of a threat.

But that doesn't mean he is just gonna let eggman continue with his conquest, it's as in his inner monologue, he tries to cause shit, GUN Will mobilize to get in the way.

Like, reminder Eggmana and Gun will sitll be enemies, but Tower is willing to be the biggest rman and tell eggman "Yo, let's beat black doom first then we focus on beating each other".

Keep in mind Towers doesn't have the full 100% support of gun on this idea. So Eggman making demands is good and bad at the same time, good cause it would be hella suspicious if he accepted right away the alliance, but bad cause depending on what he asks, well...that put's Towers in a bit oif a bad position cause there are things he just cant do, or would not ever consider doing.

Thought take in mind he would not just nod along as do whatever you ask, whatever Eggman ask, Towers will note, write it down, and consider why eggman would do such a thing.

Not sure if this helps or not.

But yeah, whatever demands you make, a heart. heck will be rolled, fi it fails it doesn't happen, but the allaince would still go on.
 
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Freak A Nature said:
Yeah, it's a long term move but it will certainly help us expand rapidly. Even get familiarity with foreign tech and magic if we grab populations who already use it.

...also may terrify the hell out of Sonics friends as Eggman is pulling a Rome. If they try and depose the guy who's actually treating everyone decently. Suddenly they look like the villains. Imagine Eggman rubbing it into Tails face that the fox is the villain here..
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Actually Sonic does not mind play the role of villain as long it follows his sense of justice and morals, Post-SGW and IDW his title is the Blue Blur instead of Hero of the world in the comics for a reason.

Like if he see people been treated well under Eggman rule, he would give "good one Eggman" and think nothing more of it. He would immediately proceed of course to stop whatever scheme of the doctor's.

He would not judge this people, although he would check if they were there under duress or safe and ask if they are very sure they want to be citizens of the Eggman Empire but once he find out they are genuine he would not mock them for their choice, he may not like like it but he would respect it. Although he would have a joke or two at their way if they fight him, you know typical Sonic behavior.

Pre-SGW!Sonic however would demand what's wrong with this people, do his best to convince them Eggman is the bad guy and he's the hero while begrudging their choice to side with a tyrant just because they were running from another tyrant instead of making the final mile to the Restoration or GUN.
 
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