All else aside "there's a criminal capable of faking video evidence" is a cover story that has already been legally established when Daedalus grabbed and then had to release Dresden. We can easily fall on that.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Yeah, they probably could use that sort of excuse. I'd suggest trying to subvert them but that sounds like a huge time investment for questionable gain. That situation probably isn't getting addressed till the Masquerade falls.
[X] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
I'm keeping the less involved version as a safety measure, but I think in current version I agree with the goals of Helping Each Other.
Mhm, that said...
@DragonParadox would this write-in be allowed?
[] Plan Always Have Reserves
-[] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
--[] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
--[] Explain the Sanctuary to him
-[] If that proves insufficient, proceed to Plan Helping Each Other V2
That way we don't overpay if it turns out literal miracle cure is a sufficient incentive.
-[X] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
-[X] Explain the Sanctuary to him
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
I'm keeping the less involved version as a safety measure, but I think in current version I agree with the goals of Helping Each Other.
Mhm, that said...
@DragonParadox would this write-in be allowed?
[] Plan Always Have Reserves
-[] Cut him in on technology trade from Sanctuary
--[] Medicines and treatments that don't have FDA approval. It's drug trade, but the drugs will actually save lives
--[] Explain the Sanctuary to him
-[] If that proves insufficient, proceed to Plan Helping Each Other V2
That way we don't overpay if it turns out literal miracle cure is a sufficient incentive.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
We can offer Murphy IDU empowerment, too, but tell her the name of our ability is Inner Detective Unchained. 🧐
Yes, but it would be hard sell even for Molly, after all if he does not control the source of the wealth you could cut him off at any time
- Location
- Estonia
I agree with 90% of what you said, except I would nitpick that technically only human monsters or monsters that were once human have rights (there is no legal way to stop being human while still being alive). And I guess a lawyer could argue that any species that can have children with humans, like Fae, cause that's the scientific definition of being the same species.
But Black Court are clinically dead and Outsiders are non-human aliens.
If it makes you feel better, it wouldn't make them more meaningfully dangerous to anyone we wouldn't want them hurting, that something like a car bomb or bullet already doesn't make them. While making them more capable or contesting those we want them to.
Also, not every petty pimp or dealer is getting UID, only select few like Hendricks.
And I find @Yog argument very compelling. Marcone is one of the setting's heroic mortals we really want to remove from the list of potential Exalted.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I guess.
If I were Odin and I had an Exaltation I wouldn't give it to someone who isn't completely in my pocket and already carrying out missions under my banner. I don't think that Marcone counts even if he's clearly an
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With enough magic that definition would go a lot further than you think. Also ghosts are also clinically dead and some of them at least are people. (Others, indeed most ghosts are just echoes playacting emotionally charged, usually traumatic scenes)
By "hard sell" you mean it would be hard to bring him on board with just Sanctuary drugs or that he would dislike the escalating offer?
There is a good chance he might refuse outright unless you allow him to produce the drugs which would be hard to manage.
Haven't noticed this before.
Wouldn't this apply to all Sanctuary trade options? He can't reasonably expect us to give up the monopoly easily, and he doesn't have means to establish production Earthside.
For pets and such he might set up local breeding populations, I guess, but this should be a much, much smaller market than medicines.
If we are talking local alchemical production, what exactly are we talking about? What kind of alchemy, what kind of production? Do we ship him blackboxed manufacturing lines with proprietary software? Teach his people how to set up their own manufacturing?
Local production of alchemical goods implies that you are handing him the machines to make more and yes pets can be bread.
- Location
- Estonia
Personally, I'm less worried about Odin per se and more that Marcone is a canon cast list heroic mortal next to Murphy (which does not mean *good*, there'd plenty of "heroic outlaws" that are basically gang leaders in humanity's folklore).
Statistically speaking, any new Exalted should be someone we don't know, but Exalted setting works based on fate and storytelling drama, not statistics.
Oh, I fully agree. My argument was made from the perspective of purely mundane law that has not adopted to magic whatsoever and does not accept supernatural evidence and arguments. Which is the mortal law juristidction we are currently operating under and would hypotetically be judged by.
I ask again why we we indulging the delusions of grandeur of a mortal. He has nothing and offers nothing, we can do everything better, faster, more securely, and without legal problems he will bring with him.
How black boxed would the manufacturing machines be? Let me explain: in real life, you can go from buying a 3D printer, which can print parts of itself, and which you are fully expected to rebuild several times by yourself, to high-precision CNC machines, which are thoroughly blackboxed - they cannot be opened up, cannot be repaired on site by anyone but certified technicians, and cannot even be moved to a different facility without both bricking them, and sending a signal to the manufacturer. I would expect the security to be somewhat on the latter side.
Also, what would be Molly's continued involvement and profit in this? So far it would seem that Molly would make one supply run, and then Marcone can reap profits indefinitely. There need to be back and forth here.
Also, could I beg you for a bit of an extension - I don't think many people realized how hard of a sell medicine would be. I certainly haven't fully grasped the implication.
Because it would take more effort to work around him, and he can be useful.
Reasonably black boxed, he would actively have to work to find mages who can understand them and then study them non invasively and on a poor roll he would just destroy them
You would have someone policing the Chicago underworld for unpleasant things, both willing and able to give offenders a pair of cement tennis shoes as the old saying goes
Sure an extension sounds resonable.
It's not a question of capability it's a question of will the closest thing to what you're talking about is In The Sky A Thousand Eyes or Tools Redeemed that's been available since Arc 8 it is Arc 15 multiple months in quest and more than a year out Quest.
Most of the thread isn't interested in building infrastructure of any type that isn't alive. What you're describing would take AP and dealing with the real world Allocation, Management and Resources.
It would have to deal with the fact that most of the people that you would be recruiting for this hypothetical Network would be criminals anyway because people aren't normally willing to die for a job the three types of people that are willing to do that are criminals, in the military already or they are desperate and your exploiting them which most criminals fit in all of those categories being willing to die for a job and desperate as well as being ex military.
To be honest I agree not the talking points but definitely the general idea of what bronze tongue and you are saying but real action beats hypothetical action any day. Real change for the better that's imperfect is better than some distant future change that maybe for the better.
I'm deeply distrustful of the idea that we will eventually fill the role Marcone has just offered to fill for us. In that time between now and us hypothetically filling that role whenever that happens both Supernatural and Marcone's victims stack up it's two birds with one stone.
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ETE he gets put in jail for life inside of a week. Again their nothing he has they we cannot do massively better in every way. We don't need criminal we can start our opperations with people the police don't want to put behind bars. That without even tappping the FFC. The advantage of being rich is the manpower you can hire, to do things for you. Security, transportation, distribution, marketing, sells. All can be done easier, and faster, by legal people we can hire, then we use the profits to buy out companies entirely to vertically integrate.
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So, let me try to make an analysis of how I understand the situation.
We are essentially buying a ranger force. Their function is different from SI. SI is for dealing with mundane-noticeable supernatural crime. As we buff them up, they'll probably be able to expand to all supernatural crimes that deal with civilians. Stuff like theft using magic, magic rape, etc. Marcone's force is more for dealing with hauntings, minor NeverNever pests, and for extrajudicial executions we cannot expect Murphy to do, and Harry doesn't have time to do because he's accompanying us and fistfighting Red King or stopping USA from being blown up, or reality from ending.
Marcone wants, most of all, to have autonomy and security for himself and his people. From this perspective, I think plan Helping Each Other V2 is actually quite good, better than when I originally wrote V1 and then deleted it:
1) IDU gives Marcone and his people means to fight low level supernatural threats on more or less equal footing. It also disqualifies him from exalting, which is great. And finally, we hold the leash by being able to revoke IDU at will, which he wouldn't know.
And if you can't make profit from your superpowers and immortality / longevity, you are not very bright. And Marcone is bright.
It also makes him and his people Creatures of Darkness, granting us social bonuses against him. I'm not sure if he'll personally go for it, but it allows us to subvert parts of his forces over time.
2) Medicine trading, which, by itself, would be a very hard sell, because it makes him reliant on us, is easier to sell within the wholeness of this plan. It gives him a huge revenue stream, while using the infrastructure he already has. It competes with drug trafficking, and, if Marcone is smart, he'll invest in medical research. And some of his IDU'd people might develop relevant abilities.
3) Splendors. We are basically solving all the life's issues with splendors. A 2 dot splendor (which will cost as a 1 dot splendor, and something Marcone should be able to supply) will be able to provide Resources 2 for a week, which would take care of wages for his people.
By showing him the Sanctuary, we also realign his view of us.
So, yeah, on further thought I am satisfied with the plan as it is.
We are essentially buying a ranger force. Their function is different from SI. SI is for dealing with mundane-noticeable supernatural crime. As we buff them up, they'll probably be able to expand to all supernatural crimes that deal with civilians. Stuff like theft using magic, magic rape, etc. Marcone's force is more for dealing with hauntings, minor NeverNever pests, and for extrajudicial executions we cannot expect Murphy to do, and Harry doesn't have time to do because he's accompanying us and fistfighting Red King or stopping USA from being blown up, or reality from ending.
Marcone wants, most of all, to have autonomy and security for himself and his people. From this perspective, I think plan Helping Each Other V2 is actually quite good, better than when I originally wrote V1 and then deleted it:
1) IDU gives Marcone and his people means to fight low level supernatural threats on more or less equal footing. It also disqualifies him from exalting, which is great. And finally, we hold the leash by being able to revoke IDU at will, which he wouldn't know.
And if you can't make profit from your superpowers and immortality / longevity, you are not very bright. And Marcone is bright.
It also makes him and his people Creatures of Darkness, granting us social bonuses against him. I'm not sure if he'll personally go for it, but it allows us to subvert parts of his forces over time.
2) Medicine trading, which, by itself, would be a very hard sell, because it makes him reliant on us, is easier to sell within the wholeness of this plan. It gives him a huge revenue stream, while using the infrastructure he already has. It competes with drug trafficking, and, if Marcone is smart, he'll invest in medical research. And some of his IDU'd people might develop relevant abilities.
3) Splendors. We are basically solving all the life's issues with splendors. A 2 dot splendor (which will cost as a 1 dot splendor, and something Marcone should be able to supply) will be able to provide Resources 2 for a week, which would take care of wages for his people.
By showing him the Sanctuary, we also realign his view of us.
So, yeah, on further thought I am satisfied with the plan as it is.
Why would we waste him like this, if we can instead make use of him, without having to expend resources?
Maybe don't sell advanced magitech to the mafia in exchange for them expanding their own empire in a pointedly independent way?
That's a genie that can't be put back in the bottle, and we have better uses for the resources.
1) The average person on the street's opinion of us isn't the only problem on this specific aspect of the issue, or even the biggest one. Their opinion of the people doing the job is more significant. The mob guys are allegedly good for this because of their place in their communities, which is not a clean one.
I think you're wrong about the nature of the rumors, but if you were right it wouldn't change anything at all.
2) They are part of the ecosystem and not undergoing an expansion funded by our money. They also aren't already targets of mundane law enforcement on an organizational level. Not really.
If we started funding white court outposts and setting up slaughterhouses to feed our ghouls fresh long pork that'd be one thing, but the problem here is the active situation we're causing. That is the thing being reacted to.
There's also a certain grounding in existing bias, a knowledge of unaddressed crimes, and simple institutional inertia to consider. The guys running the show have to explain themselves on official record. They cannot stop hunting him on the basis of "well, he stopped the understandable crime. It's just systematic violence whose pattern we haven't worked out yet. Case closed".
The most likely outcome is Daedalus getting involved I think, simply because this is the most fitting possible case for their profile and it's happening in their front yard.
I think our connection would be found out, and cause a problem where what's effectively Molly passive political pressure causes the government to fight itself over the idea of fighting us.
Daedalus: Knows and wants to pick a fight for political reasons.
Mundanes: Don't know and want enforce the law on violent criminals.
The Library: Knows. Really doesn't want to allow either of those two to do so, but can only half explain themselves.
Suppose they don't make that connection though.
All the details observable from the mob still apply, and strange supernatural drugs in the hands of organized crime - even if they're medical - is still catnip for Daedalus.
They're not even wrong to be skeptical about the situation; we've seen the Pathfinders alone try using fake medical treatments to victimize mortals twice in their history within the US, and they probably aren't the only ones.
So seeing the violence and supernatural motive they pick a fight. No one tries to stop them because this looks like a legitimate case. Now we have the same problems from earlier to deal with.
That's a genie that can't be put back in the bottle, and we have better uses for the resources.
I was trying to step back from this debate, but sure.
1) The average person on the street's opinion of us isn't the only problem on this specific aspect of the issue, or even the biggest one. Their opinion of the people doing the job is more significant. The mob guys are allegedly good for this because of their place in their communities, which is not a clean one.
I think you're wrong about the nature of the rumors, but if you were right it wouldn't change anything at all.
2) They are part of the ecosystem and not undergoing an expansion funded by our money. They also aren't already targets of mundane law enforcement on an organizational level. Not really.
If we started funding white court outposts and setting up slaughterhouses to feed our ghouls fresh long pork that'd be one thing, but the problem here is the active situation we're causing. That is the thing being reacted to.
Nor knowing about the supernatural means that all the violent crime we're hiring him to do would still look like violent crime. Make no mistake, this agreement involves bodies in the ground.
There's also a certain grounding in existing bias, a knowledge of unaddressed crimes, and simple institutional inertia to consider. The guys running the show have to explain themselves on official record. They cannot stop hunting him on the basis of "well, he stopped the understandable crime. It's just systematic violence whose pattern we haven't worked out yet. Case closed".
The most likely outcome is Daedalus getting involved I think, simply because this is the most fitting possible case for their profile and it's happening in their front yard.
I think our connection would be found out, and cause a problem where what's effectively Molly passive political pressure causes the government to fight itself over the idea of fighting us.
Daedalus: Knows and wants to pick a fight for political reasons.
Mundanes: Don't know and want enforce the law on violent criminals.
The Library: Knows. Really doesn't want to allow either of those two to do so, but can only half explain themselves.
Suppose they don't make that connection though.
All the details observable from the mob still apply, and strange supernatural drugs in the hands of organized crime - even if they're medical - is still catnip for Daedalus.
They're not even wrong to be skeptical about the situation; we've seen the Pathfinders alone try using fake medical treatments to victimize mortals twice in their history within the US, and they probably aren't the only ones.
So seeing the violence and supernatural motive they pick a fight. No one tries to stop them because this looks like a legitimate case. Now we have the same problems from earlier to deal with.
If they have means of production, then no, it cannot. If they don't, it's possible. Also, what advanced magitech? I would posit that selling working medicine to countries where they cannot be obtained legally is a moral good, mafia or no mafia.
Ok, not this is a completely different argument from before, and I wish you have brought it up earlier. To be clear, I am responding to the argument "Marcone's people performing supernatural protection / policing will be perceived negatively by those they are protecting due to being criminals". This is an argument to be made, yes. But remember, an average supernaturally aware person on the street lives in the constant fear of being eaten. The main function of minor organizations like Order of Cauldron is to help survival of their members. Not prosperity. They have developed safehouses, routines for when their predators are stalking them, protocols to shelter members of the organization and their families. They do not enjoy living in a modern first world free society with social security and assumed safety, where they internalized that the law is there to protect them. They live on the fringes of society, knowing that they can be eaten, literally, and nothing will happen to their killer.
In these circumstances Marcone's boys turning proactively violent against supernatural would, I think, be perceived positively by the population. It's how it often is in a warzone or after societal collapse.
We are laundering money (our diamond business) through White Court affiliates. And I bet that there are rumors about how exactly we are keeping our pet ghouls fed.
The effort it would take to neutralize Marcone as a problem, while also providing security to the population is greater than the effort of essentially subverting Marcone and smoothing the edges with additional political moves, I feel.
- Location
- Japan, The Big Town
[X] Plan Helping Each Other V2
We are not our diamond business to fully legal. We have made no secret of the fact serving Molly undoes problems of the Ghoul hunger, that been spread by the Fey spy network worldwide for months now.
Both are not true. Marcrone and his organziation dies to 5 minuets of Molly time if she decides to take him out ETE. Or just fly and and kill Marcrone and his inner circle in a combat round. Marcrone is a mortal he cannot flat out do anything as well as Exalted can, and the effort spend dealing with the massive legal problems he brings. Is effort that pays off vastly more just starting our own organziation, that does not have an active hostile governmental force after it.
Dresden basically handed Marcrone a submit or die ultimatum in the last 1-2 books and Marcrone folded.
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