Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Neablis said:
Sure? Probably somewhat marginal gains. And the Navigator might be grumpy about it. In the "Don't need no stinkin' AI model doing my job for me - but badly!" kind of way.
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Now that I think about it - couldn't we try to develop a direct neural interface between them for better synergy, maybe even a miniaturised abacus that could be internally implanted into Navigators (I'd guess then their mind and the machine's neural network would merge tech-priest style)? Probably need to complete a fair few more research projects to reach that stage (and of course have access and consent from a will Navigator candidate), but something to think about in the long term.

Actually, now that I think about it, could we effectively do the reverse, if we get access to Navigator genetic samples, and grow Navigator neural tissue (not full "brains in a jar", rather more limited, nonconscious organoids consisting of only the necessary neural structures to conduit Navigator activity) plus third/psychic eye(s) to integrate into our void abacus to improve its functioning? Would probably also need to develop a functioning machine spirit/artificial neural network for the void abacus first as to ensure they are integrated properly.

Granted, this probably wouldn't help our case should the Navigator Houses get word of our tech, (they would, quite reasonably, fear widespread adoption by an Imperium which barely tolerates their "mutant"+"witch" existence would mean they could be targeted for effective servitorisation as well as mass genocide, even if we supplied the tech, resources and infrastructure to grow Navigator neural tissue without harming any Navigators) - but I think both approaches could be worthwhile in the long term.
 
Guys don't forget about our newest member of our crew in the form of Victen, he can pretty much help in the espionage area, while Anexa can help in the technical area, we can focus on diplomacy and build up our forces.

The only things, a military person or AI and someone who is a psyker that's if we are going to have one join us sooner or later. If we are going to be able to defeat the Machinus, we need to make good use of Anexa and Victan and focus on our strengths.

Don't play into their game where they can win by their rules, just break their game board and go all out, don't follow their rules of engagement and use all tools that are in our disposal to defeat them.

If we can't use brute force or anything then we might as well use the backdoor that they have left for us to exploit.

(A/N: this is mostly addressing to those that are concerned about the kill stats and how to deal with the machinus)
 
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DragonParadox said:
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Regardless, it does not matter. Period. We chose the research build and to have a single Void Abacus that we can research to make more. We do not need to rely on navigators, I don't even know why you would want to have them - they aren't going to be able to be used in combat, given how valuable they are and they are completely unneeded for us.

Edit: @Negentropy you forget that it's 'mutant + witch + flaunts excessive wealth by Imperial Noble's standards' if given the option to switch to an alternative FTL method (and do so without the Navigators all going on strike in response to the attempt) then every level of Imperial society that knows about the Navigators would do so gleefully, they hate them, even Big E would gleefully choose that, they are after all the reason why he had to make the Webway portal in complete secrecy, the Navigators would have pulled a galaxy wide strike and would have sent constant assassins and saboteurs to destroy it like they did for pretty much every other method of FTL or Warp Navigation that gets found.
 
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Going to throw out a variation on the prior proposals, focused more on diplomacy/talking, and the notion that we will leave this planet eventually, and you can't take facilities with you …

[] Plan: Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[] Look up House Klyssar, and ask the same of Victan's contacts, focusing on information related to the distant station and what risks it poses to the planet. They're one of your main leads to figure out not just what's up with the Mechanicus' station, but also what made them leave a presence on the planet in the first place.
-[] Diplomacy/Subversion x2
--[] Pay a visit to Thalya in person, don't be afraid to come off as a little smug, give the report and all of that business, and give the implications that while you may not have found the grand prize, you've found enough little bits and bobs so far to help refine your own understanding of some of the fundaments, and there's still plenty left to look into. Afterwards, go spend some time canvassing the Cogitae (While also making sure you clean up Thalya's latest attempt to track you down), and drop a few insights of your studies in too--such as the designs for your civilian augments, which if Anexa's response was any indication, should be a major carrot and a sign that what you're doing is a worthy task. While this is going on, touch base with some of the more... Committed acolytes, and make sure they get any tools they'll need for the plan of defanging the current regime. (Thalya Report mixed with further supporting and tossing incentives in to the Cogitae Exploratrum, with little carrots here and there to help encourage them, like our studies on optimized civilian augmetics and--perhaps our neural augments, presuming this doesn't get vetoed by one of our advisors, maybe the odd bit of useful gear too, we do have an extra budget for this now).
--[] Using our available national and tech-priest contacts, begin reaching out to the monasteries to find out their status, needs, and whether we might be able to trade some of our anti-psyker knowledge or equipment for a useful psyker. The outreach would be done using our explorator guise, and we'd be appropriately vague about what we might be able to offer and what we're asking for, just to avoid offending somebody who's too honest to be useful for a back channel exchange like this
-[] Construction x1 (2650 BP)
--[] Construction slot (2650 GBP)
---[] 1x Underground Machine-spirit Jammer (300 BP, 10 CP)
---[] 2x Underground Spaceports (600 BP, 50 CP)
---[] 46x Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP) (1,150 BP, 230 CP) 46 fighters total over 4 spaceports
---[] 100x Basic Stealth Missiles (5 VBP, 1 CP) (500 VBP, 100 CP) - Launch them using the catapult, not to engage until things get spicy; if detected, state that they are for outward-facing defense in order to protect the planet from threats.
---[] Assorted Goods as required by Plans and The Rent (50 BP)
-[] Research x1 (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Blueprint: Basic Stealth Missiles (50 RP)
--[] Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking (150/150 RP)
---[ ] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
--[] Blueprint: Machine Spirit Jammer (25 RP)
-[] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 20 -> 70 -> 45)
-[][ANEXA] Research
-[][VICTAN] Subversion
--[] Assist with the Mechanicus Diplomacy action
 
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Aura Dragon said:
Regardless, it does not matter. Period. We chose the research build and to have a single Void Abacus that we can research to make more. We do not need to rely on navigators, I don't even know why you would want to have them - they aren't going to be able to be used in combat, given how valuable they are and they are completely unneeded for us.
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Fair, just saying if we get a navigator because we like to adopt strays they are very unlikely to care about the wider implications of the technology used for the Houses which would be hostile to them anyway.
 
meianmaru said:
I like Alectai's plan a lot, but still wanted to make some tiny changes. First of all, building one less anti-orbital lance to get us one jammer cogitator bank ready. If things turn out badly due to horrible dice rolls, would be nice to have at least one. Also made a different write-in for the diplomacy action with Thalya/AdMech.
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I'm more and more liking the idea of trying to go loud ourselves next turn, so I'm onboard for your more aggressive diplo write-in here.

Not sure if the Jammer is actually relevant in combat-time, but if it is then it should be fine over a third Anti-orbital, that part I'm a bit more ambivalent on.

For the Trade Goods with Neablis' confirmation I figured it's worth reducing the build order from 50 down to 30, and instead getting 20 BP of Heavy Infantry Weapons. That's the entry which mentions plasma guns and melts weapons, which should be of more use as bargaining chips to our subvertees than civilian-grade Trade Goods, and 30 BP on the latter still gets our stockpile to 50 total, which will last us until the end of Turn 13, by which point ideally we should've gone loud anyway.
 
Karnax626 said:
I'm more and more liking the idea of trying to go loud ourselves next turn, so I'm onboard for your more aggressive diplo write-in here.

Not sure if the Jammer is actually relevant in combat-time, but if it is then it should be fine over a third Anti-orbital, that part I'm a bit more ambivalent on.

For the Trade Goods with Neablis' confirmation I figured it's worth reducing the build order from 50 down to 30, and instead getting 20 BP of Heavy Infantry Weapons. That's the entry which mentions plasma guns and melts weapons, which should be of more use as bargaining chips to our subvertees than civilian-grade Trade Goods, and 30 BP on the latter still gets our stockpile to 50 total, which will last us until the end of Turn 13, by which point ideally we should've gone loud anyway.
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The machine spirit jammer is definitely relevant in combat time. Hacking research is the branch for the more long-term efforts, which my plan also engages with for this turn. Which will hopefully be improved with a good research roll beforehand. On giving weapons to subvert more at the Enclaves... I don't think it is a good idea. That amount of advanced extremely-hard-to-produce weaponry might draw too much attention.
 
meianmaru said:
The machine spirit jammer is definitely relevant in combat time. Hacking research is the branch for the more long-term efforts, which my plan also engages with for this turn. Which will hopefully be improved with a good research roll beforehand. On giving weapons to subvert more at the Enclaves... I don't think it is a good idea. That amount of advanced extremely-hard-to-produce weaponry might draw too much attention.
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Neablis said:
Note to planners - it might be good to include if you plan to visit the Denva enclave in person, and what the parameters are around that visit. Are you taking more recruits? Are you putting a face to the "Explorator" and potentially giving your disciples supplies? They'd be much more capable of various sabotage/assassinations if you handed them some untracable plasma guns, and that kind of high tech would also win you converts all on your own. This is the kind of expected game the mechanicus plays, where people jockey for influence with the currency being knowledge and technology. You've provided a lot of the former but fairly little of the latter.
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I was going off of this quote here when I mentioned weapons, which seems to imply it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary as long as we don't overdo it. Though I can see an argument for mixing in some examples of high-quality civilian augments as well.
 
Before we go loud against the orthodox Mechanicus with any plans, we should probably contact the psyker monasteries first and search the Mechanicus databases to check for any "failsafes" specifically targeting the monasteries (beyond the broader killsats and enclave WMDs) and figure out how to counteract them in the event of violent confrontation (e.g., there could be WMDs buried beneath the monasteries which will automatically detonate without a signal from Mechanicus leaders).
 
Okay, made just a small change to the plan based on what Neablis had said earlier and then Karnax626 pointed out to me. 45 Trade goods made for Mechanicus subversion, used in amounts that Vita and Victan think makes sense, while the rest of it goes to storage if they think that using it all would be counter-productive or too dangerous. Also some wording changes in the diplomacy write-in, including bribing Thalya if needed, and giving tech to those we want to subvert, including weapons.

[X] Plan: The Robot-Satan-Snake In The Garden
-[X] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[X] Look up House Klyssar, and ask the same of Victan's contacts in Aevon. They're one of your main leads to figure out not just what's up with the Mechanicus' station, but also what made them leave a presence on the planet in the first place.
-[X] Diplomacy/Subversion (AdMech):
--[X] Visit Thalya's Enclave in person this time. Give a report with only a small amount of progress, if still with some "potentially related" physical samples. Affect a carefully concealed frustrated disposition in the noosphere, and "reveal" that you have a need for more assistants than just Anexa at this point to "accelerate the search". Deny taking them just yet, because "you want to ensure they are capable enough" in a way that will hopefully make Thalya think of you being paranoid of her infiltrators and spies. Instead, say that you will take them under your wing in the next five years after making sure that your facilities are ready. Bribe Thalya if needed, as is usual in the Mechanicus. Use the cover of scouting new talent in different Enclaves to get in contact with Cogitare Exploraratum, and with Victan assisting remotely, starts fully subverting those that you can, while at least getting your hooks into those you can't. Offer various high-technology goods, from your civilian cybernetic augments to advanced weaponry, through the latter mostly just to those you intend to fully subvert. See also about probing for vulnerabilities and installing backdoors to systems of Enclaves with their help, hopefully with improved understanding about emotionally manipulating the machine spirits. (Dedicated subversion effort. Find both true believers and opportunists, as well as those whose loyalties can at least be compromised. Probe for and introduce weaknesses in the systems of the Enclaves if feasible safely.)
-[X] Construction x2 (5300 BP = 2650 BP + 2650 BP)
--[X] Construction slot, 1st (2650 GBP)
---[X] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (2650/3000 BP, 50 CP)
--[X] Construction slot, 2nd (2650 GBP)
---[X] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (3000/3000 BP, 50 CP) (350 BP)
---[X] Underground Spaceport (300 BP, 25 CP)
---[X] 22x Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP) (550 BP, 210 CP) 30 fighters total over 3 spaceports
---[X] 1x Underground Machine-spirit Jammer (300 BP, 10 CP)
---[X] 2x Underground Anti-Orbital Defenses (300 BP, 5 CP) (600 BP, 10 CP)
---[X] 100x Basic Stealth Missiles (5 VBP, 1 CP) (500 VBP, 100 CP) - Launch them using the catapult, not to engage until things get spicy.
---[X] Trade Goods, Aevon (5 BP) (20 -> 25)
---[X] Trade Goods, Mechanicus subversion (45 BP) (used at the discretion of Vita and Victan where needed and sensible, otherwise stored)
-[X] Research x1 (200 + 25 RP)
--[X] Blueprint: 50 RP - Basic space stealth missile (5 Void BP, 1 CP)
--[X] Blueprint: 25 RP - Machine-spirit Jammer (100 BP, 10 CP)
--[X] Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking (150/150 RP)
---[X] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
-[X] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 25 -> 0)
-[X] Anexa active Action: Research (Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking)
-[X] Victan active action: Subversion (AdMech)
 
[X]Plan Oi,Let Her Cook

-[X]Diplomacy(To Thalya,tell her everyhting we've been constructing and researching over the years)

-[X]Research × 3
--[X] The Basics of Psytech (200 RP)
--[X] The workings of a Void Abacus (200 RP)
--[X] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (200 RP)

-[X] Anexa passive action:

-[X] Victan passive action: Counterespionage & communication - Defends against covert action, as well as gathering information on your foes and keeping communication channels open with any allies present. Will only level if something interesting happens.
 
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birdmaster01 said:
[X]Plan Oi,Let Her Cook

-[X]Diplomacy(To Thalya,tell her everyhting we've been constructing and researching over the years)

-[X]Research × 3
--[X] The Basics of Psytech (200 RP)
--[X] The workings of a Void Abacus (200 RP)
--[X] Secrets of the Machine Spirits (200 RP)

-[X] Anexa passive action:

-[X] Victan passive action: Counterespionage & communication - Defends against covert action, as well as gathering information on your foes and keeping communication channels open with any allies present. Will only level if something interesting happens.
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Ok, the joke plans were a little funny, but I think the joke has worn out by now.
 
meianmaru said:
-[X] Construction x2 (5300 BP = 2650 BP + 2650 BP)
---[X] 100x Basic Stealth Missiles (5 VBP, 1 CP) (500 VBP, 100 CP) - Launch them using the catapult, not to engage until things get spicy.
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If we're spending two construction actons, we should launch 200 stealth missiles, not 100. The catapult gives us 500 Void BP per action, not per turn. I'm not sure which projects to take that extra 500 BP from, but it would very much improve our chances here and mean we aren't missing out on 500 Void BP of stuff.
 
Derpmind said:
If we're spending two construction actons, we should launch 200 stealth missiles, not 100. The catapult gives us 500 Void BP per action, not per turn. I'm not sure which projects to take that extra 500 BP from, but it would very much improve our chances here and mean we aren't missing out on 500 Void BP of stuff.
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This is a very good point, but I thought about it and really didn't know what to cut either. The jammer should give us some more slack as do the fighters if things go very suddenly wrong, so this should be good. However, I'm open to suggestions if you have something specific in mind, or you could just make your own version of the plan and throw it into the voting race.
 
meianmaru said:
This is a very good point, but I thought about it and really didn't know what to cut either. The jammer should give us some more slack as do the fighters if things go very suddenly wrong, so this should be good. However, I'm open to suggestions if you have something specific in mind, or you could just make your own version of the plan and throw it into the voting race.
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Do we need the anti-orbital defences this turn if we're building the far more expensive medium void shield?
 
Derpmind said:
Do we need the anti-orbital defences this turn if we're building the far more expensive medium void shield?
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I'd argue we want one, just in case there's a destroyer or frigate in reserve out there somewhere.
The jammer would be nice to have, but cutting it and on of the anti-orbital guns seems best.

Alternatively we cut one of the anti-orbital guns, four of the stealth fighters and drop the Jammer down from Underground to Concealed.

25 fighters was listed as what we need for global anti-ballistic missile coverage, so 26 should be fine.

The main issue is the increased risk of discovery from doubling the number of missiles put into orbit in one go.
 
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[X] Plan: The Robot-Satan-Snake In The Garden

meianmaru said:
--[X] Blueprint: 25 RP - Machine-spirit Jammer (100 BP, 10 CP)
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@meianmaru, in regards to what to do with the extra 500 Void BP, could we swap the machine-spirit jammer research - which to my understanding couldn't be integrated into any of our missile designs this turn as it would still be too bulky a module to be easily applied to our units - for spy satellite research, and then build + launch up to 50 satellites in the same turn (assuming a successful research roll)?

meianmaru said:
--[X] Construction slot, 1st (2650 GBP)
---[X] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (2650/3000 BP, 50 CP)
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We could take the 500 BP from the 1st construction slot medium void shield, considering it, while important, wouldn't be finished this turn anyway, and use it either to build spy satellites and/or more stealth space missiles (which would take it from 2650/3000 BP to 2150/3000 BP completed, if I'm understanding this correctly).

Neablis said:
25 RP - Spy satellite (10 void BP, 5 CP) A small spy satellite that lets you do your own surveillance on the planet below. Under your complete control and with better sensors and communication hardening than any of the local satellites.
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@Neablis, how stealthy are these spy satellites relative to our other stealth designs? Based on what we know, could we comfortably say that they would be (passively or actively) undetected by the Mechanicus?

Secondly, how many satellites would we need for comprehensive planetary coverage?
 
Negentropy said:
@meianmaru, in regards to what to do with the extra 500 Void BP, could we swap the machine-spirit jammer research - which to my understanding couldn't be integrated into any of our missile designs this turn as it would still be too bulky a module to be easily applied to our units - for spy satellite research, and then build + launch up to 50 satellites in the same turn (assuming a successful research roll)?
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It comes in the form of modules for ships and installations. Installation is basically cogitators + transmitters, and reach through networks basically anywhere on the planet and its orbit. Which I'm building one this turn, considering that just one of them should be able to knock out dozens of ICBMs out of flight during re-entry IIRC. Just as an example.

Also, as a side note our units now have integrated jamming capabilities by default with no extra cost, as noted in the update. It just gives a small increase in combat effectiveness against anyone using imperial tech with machine spirits.
Negentropy said:
We could take the 500 BP from the 1st construction slot medium void shield, considering it, while important, wouldn't be finished this turn anyway, and use it either to build spy satellites and/or more stealth space missiles (which would take it from 2650/3000 BP to 2150/3000 BP completed, if I'm understanding this correctly).
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Hmmm. Not sure if you've understood the plan incorrectly, or I'm just not getting what you are trying to say. Because the second construction does finish it (the void-shield) this turn.
Derpmind said:
Do we need the anti-orbital defences this turn if we're building the far more expensive medium void shield?
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Karnax626 said:
I'd argue we want one, just in case there's a destroyer or frigate in reserve out there somewhere.
The jammer would be nice to have, but cutting it and on of the anti-orbital guns seems best.

Alternatively we cut one of the anti-orbital guns, four of the stealth fighters and drop the Jammer down from Underground to Concealed.

25 fighters was listed as what we need for global anti-ballistic missile coverage, so 26 should be fine.

The main issue is the increased risk of discovery from doubling the number of missiles put into orbit in one go.
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Well, one solution is just not to build missiles at all for this turn. I completed (EDIT: the mag-rail) on the last turn for it to be ready if needed early, but with the crit and very decent ACI roll for countering mechanicus intelligence? We are not in such a hurry. But really, I'm personally okay with leaving those 100 to the orbit for this turn. Even if they do get discovered, it isn't immediately game over or even the end of this world, just very concerning and alarming to the mechanicus.

EDIT: typo corrections
 
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