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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Yog said:
No, it means that they didn't have a choice.
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Uju has a point about murdering younger wizards though. If old bones were as good as fresh ones I wouldn't expect it to be a problem for blampire spirits, but it might be the case that the faded power of a centuries old master wizard is still better than the fresh body of a mage only a few decades out from their apprenticeship.

Another angle could be if the wizard bone give them a connection to the wards. Every little bit helps and it wouldn't be the oddest thing we've seen if possessing the corpse of someone who originally raised a ward gave a vamp leverage to tear it down with.

What surprises me is that messing with old wizard corpses is safe. Even relying on the fortress above as the primary blocker I'd be concerned about what the wizards clearly preparing for their own deaths might have done to their graves.

Especially since they'd be the people most aware of the danger their bodies pose as a tool against others but didn't see fit to have them destroyed. If I was an ancient wizard looking for a good place to rest my bones I'd curse the shit out of my tomb while settling my affairs just on general principle.

I guess they thought their successors would be enough.
 
Degorium said:
Starting from the bottom and working our way up this isn't aa enclosed space there's an entire complex full of air behind us in closed spaces for fire means enclosed spaces where no more air can get in I don't feel the need to elaborate any further than that because obviously that's what an enclosed space means.

They are black vampires because they were raised by necromancy we have met them before and they're human corpses which means there aren't resistant to fire you can't counter spell other magic while you were casting magic it occupies the same casting spot they have to stop casting their spell to try and active counter spell.

It would need to be an active counter spell simply because none of the Wizards we have with us seem to use transformation magics that would directly Target an entity and try to turn it into something else it would need to be active counter Magic.

They are human corpses raised via dark magic that makes exactly zero sense for them to be resistant to Mortal magic simply because they only walk because of it. On top of the fact that people being resistant to fucking magic is supposed to be rare.

As far as leaving the warlocks to the living that is exactly your point they have no reason not to active counter spell all Mortal wizards they aren't the ones casting the geomancy.

They're not the ones that can be killed via direct Fireball or other magic directly to the head by white Council Wizards meant to kill they are also not the ones that have anything to fear from using law-breaking magic so why would you prioritize their safety when they are the ones who are both raising corpses and fully capable of casting spells. Their deaths contribute nothing other than more corpses to raise because they're not the ones doing the magic.

Matthews was very specifically angling for something completely different than what these warlocks are going for which I fully believe you know and are just trying to equivocate two completely separate situations.
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1)I quote:
"It's a bit like if you looked up and saw the Philosopher's Stone just shining over all the world," she explained, or started to at least. Turning the corner the company stopped dead. About thirty feet in front of them the floor fell away into a jagged pit whose far edge was a of ancient stone and black bazaltic foundations. At least one set of marble stairs had already slid in.
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"Ayup, that's a sixty foot drop, you got anything that can deal with that?" Zadock had been looking into the hole.
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Sixty foot deep pit. Its enclosed, and we're bringing 13 people to a location that already has multiple warlocks and not vampires. Its going to get cramped.

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2)Black Court vampires arent raised by necromancy in the Dresden Files.
You can use necromancy against them, somehow, but as far as we know you dont use necromancy to make them; Drusilla made a bunch of them too quickly in her short story. Whatever the hell these guys did, its not Black Court vampire reproduction.

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3) Night Folk get automatic basic countermagick dice by M20 rules.
Dunno how a notvampire thing riding the corpse of a longdead wizard would work though.
Nevermind if they have rotes/Investments up.

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4) We dont know what darkness is riding the corpse, or what it can do. We have seen magic resistance/immunity to human magic from the fae marshal Talos/Grum in Summer Knight, the Denarian Ursiel in Death Masks, the Whampire Lord Raith in Blood Rites, the Denarian Thorned Namshiel in Small Favor, and Outsiders in multiple books.
And McCoy outright tells us that its something you can see from like old gods in Blood Rites.

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5) If the human warlocks are spending their time counterspelling? Great. Counterspelling is a full-round action.Time they spend counterspelling is time they arent doing anything else. If Morgan and his squad can stall them enough for Lydia+ Sophia to roll the notvampires and stop them trying to destroy the Halls, we win this encounter. It is a good thing.

But I suspect the human warlocks arent just standing around idle while the notvampire things do the casting.
So send the wizards. This was what the Wardens were good at, and all of them besides Harry have Wardenswords to cut through the magic of enemy warlocks.

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6) Mortal wizards cannot soak lethal without magic.
We dont know enough about these things to make a threat assessment, but even bog-standard vampires can soak lethal without any additional disciplines, and thes fuckers have magic on top of that.


Yog said:
No, it means that they didn't have a choice.
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They've been killing younger wizards here to sell the image of a vampire attack, and had time and opportunity to fuck with the bodies. If they just wanted any wizard bodies, good chance they'd already have them.
Especially since Peabody explicitly has mind control access to a bunch of potential victims.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Sep 25, 2024 at 11:23 AM, finished with 52 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X]Plan Deaths Angel
    -[X]Try to distract the possessed corpses, the ritually made vampires working the geomancy
    --[X]Marble Skin + Steelskin + Impervious Skin of Stone + Dexterity Excellency + Hunter's Bolt: 3m
    --[X]Flare anima to reveal ghosts and spirits + roll Supernatural Awareness
    --[X]Prepare to activate Warding of Divine Ancestry
    [X] Plan: Make Ready and Strike plus stunt
    -[X] Focus on the mortal warlocks, she could kill them far more freely than the wardens and they use their power on the Black Court things
    --[X]Marble Flesh Willpower roll no cost
    --[X] Steel Skin 1 Essence
    --[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation 1 Essence
    --[X] Dexterity Excellency 1 Essence
    --[X] Hunters Bolt No Cost
    -[x][Stunt] Lydia strode forward without fear, but inspiring much as bolts flew from her glowing hand and she ignored all attacks against her. Dead faltering as something far more implacable then death came against them.
    [X] Focus on the mortal warlocks, she could kill them far more freely than the wardens and they use their power on the Black Court things
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uju32 said:
Sixty foot deep pit. Its enclosed, and we're bringing 13 people to a location that already has multiple warlocks and not vampires. Its going to get cramped.
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That isn't what enclosed means if you meant confined or tight just say so.
Enclosed: Surrounded or closed off on all sides.
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Having a large drop that is directly attached to open halls isn't enclosed by any stretch. They would need to set the stone on fire to be affected in the manner your suggesting.
uju32 said:
3) Night Folk get automatic basic countermagick dice by M20 rules.
Dunno how a notvampire thing riding the corpse of a longdead wizard would work though.
Nevermind if they have rotes/Investments up.
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They don't get that against all spells only spells that attempt to transform or manipulate their form or mind. Anything else requires active counter spell.
uju32 said:
4) We dont know what darkness is riding the corpse, or what it can do. We have seen magic resistance/immunity to human magic from the fae marshal Talos/Grum in Summer Knight, the Denarian Ursiel in Death Masks, the Whampire Lord Raith in Blood Rites, the Denarian Thorned Namshiel in Small Favor, and Outsiders in multiple books.
And McCoy outright tells us that its something you can see from like old gods in Blood Rites.
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That means they are explicitly vulnerable to 'Starborn' Dresden(Outer/old god Alignment) and their is an explicit difference between resistance and immunity. If they have any such resistance once so ever as literally everyone on that list is an extreme heavy hitter or actual hero unit of an entire faction.
uju32 said:
6) Mortal wizards cannot soak lethal without magic.
We dont know enough about these things to make a threat assessment, but even bog-standard vampires can soak lethal without any additional disciplines, and thes fuckers have magic on top of that.
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Spells can be made aggravated by including prime 2 without increasing the difficulty of the spell or by spending 1 mana/quint. Not to mention Fire starts Aggravated.
 
Degorium said:
That isn't what enclosed means if you meant confined or tight just say so.

Having a large drop that is directly attached to open halls isn't enclosed by any stretch. They would need to set the stone on fire to be affected in the manner your suggesting.

They don't get that against all spells only spells that attempt to transform or manipulate their form or mind. Anything else requires active counter spell.

That means they are explicitly vulnerable to 'Starborn' Dresden(Outer/old god Alignment) and their is an explicit difference between resistance and immunity. If they have any such resistance once so ever as literally everyone on that list is an extreme heavy hitter or actual hero unit of an entire faction.

Spells can be made aggravated by including prime 2 without increasing the difficulty of the spell or by spending 1 mana/quint. Not to mention Fire starts Aggravated.
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1) Its the basement of the Halls. The pit is in the literal floor. There's nowhere else to go.
Harry almost died in Grave Peril in part from from an open-air fire that he started.
You underestimate magical fire at your peril


2)They dont get to roll countermagick against attack spells, they simply dodge, block or soak.
Shit like curses, mind control, blood ripping, countermagick works against. And remember, if these hostiles are modelled on vampires, that means Celerity for extra actions, which means they can cast and still have 1 or more Actions to act.


3) In his Grum alter-ego, the Summer fae lord Talos bounced Harry's spells off his pecs for most of Summer Knight, something that Harry says old powerful fae can do. And we see Ursiel and Thorned Namshiel and Lord Raith all do the same thing.
Starborn confers authority over Outsiders, not over other entities.


4)There are vampire Disciplines(Daimonion 6), sorcerer rituals(Fire's Weal, Path of Hellfire 2) and demonic Investments like Hell-Skinned which all confer resistance or immunity to fire. And these are entities inhabiting the bodies of old master spellcasters; good chance they'll have the same shields that wizards use.
 
uju32 said:
They've been killing younger wizards here to sell the image of a vampire attack, and had time and opportunity to fuck with the bodies. If they just wanted any wizard bodies, good chance they'd already have them.
Especially since Peabody explicitly has mind control access to a bunch of potential victims.
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You don't know that at all. How long is the ritual that is needed to transform a dead body into a blampire (without another blampire already being present)? What are the required material components? Can it be done at any day of the month / year or only when the stars are right? You don't know that.
 
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uju32 said:
1) Its the basement of the Halls. The pit is in the literal floor. There's nowhere else to go.
Harry almost died in Grave Peril in part from from an open-air fire that he started.
You underestimate magical fire at your peril
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I will reiterate that is not what enclosed means. Say they are trapped say they are in a pit where they cannot leave say anything else but that is not with fucking enclosed means. Enclosed in every safety context and most context in general means completely surrounded and not accessible via air or other entrance. You very specifically say they could die from exposure to heat and smoke in this area and that is just explicitly not true because it isn't fucking enclosed.
uju32 said:
2)They dont get to roll countermagick against attack spells, they simply dodge, block or soak.
Shit like curses, mind control, blood ripping, countermagick works against. And remember, if these hostiles are modelled on vampires, that means Celerity for extra actions, which means they can cast and still have 1 or more Actions to act.
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They are the one casting geomancy to bring down the building we want them to move to not be standing still allowing them to cast spells. If you were at all serious about disciplines being able to soak damage then them just being left standing as Lydia throws her only lethal damage spear isn't really the solution.
uju32 said:
3) In his Grum alter-ego, the Summer fae lord Talos bounced Harry's spells off his pecs for most of Summer Knight, something that Harry says old powerful fae can do. And we see Ursiel and Thorned Namshiel and Lord Raith all do the same thing.
Starborn confers authority over Outsiders, not over other entities.
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You have still either purposely missed the point or are ignoring it those are all people that are insane Heavy Hitters or outright Lords that are dealing directly with greater Outsiders not random warlocks. You can't keep making this assumption that every character that we ever run across has fucking Investments it just doesn't make sense from a storytelling or actual logistical standpoint.
uju32 said:
4)There are vampire Disciplines(Daimonion 6), sorcerer rituals(Fire's Weal, Path of Hellfire 2) and demonic Investments like Hell-Skinned which all confer resistance or immunity to fire. And these are entities inhabiting the bodies of old master spellcasters; good chance they'll have the same shields that wizards use
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Here We Go Again Elder disciplines which not a given by any stretch of the imagination. Sorcerer magic which no wizard has access to also thats only resistance to fire and would need to be prepared in ritual beforehand which considering they only knew they got thrown out today seems unlikely and a whole bunch of other things about this that doesn't really make sense because wizard magic also doesn't do that it would need more successes for damage reduction per bolts there's a whole system reason why that doesn't work.
 
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Funny thing about this; Morgan is an Earth affinity evoker, which is incredibly rare for a variety of reasons. It occurs to me that fighting him underground is a really, really, bad idea.

Might even be worth asking him to pause for a moment and knock on the door for us, because he might be able to do stuff like reverse gravity for the casters in the hole so they can experience the consequences of their entire ritual flipping upside down and smashing into the ceiling.

We're literally in his element and Morgan is the kind of guy who elder vampires are afraid to allow within arm's reach. Might as well let him swing for the fences.
 
Yog said:
You don't know that at all. How long is the ritual that is needed to transform a dead body into a blampire (without another blampire already being present)? What are the required material components? Can it be done at any day of the month / year or only when the stars are right? You don't know that.
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We don't know if these are Blampires yet. Just animated corpses capable of magic.

All of this was set off by Molly and they couldn't have just had this in the basement the entire time so it seems like it didn't take too long to set up. Probably a handful of hours at most. Likely doesn't require extremely specific conditions like the "stars being right" unless we were just really unlucky with our timing.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 25, 2024 at 1:51 PM, finished with 60 posts and 13 votes.
  • [X]Plan Deaths Angel
    -[X]Try to distract the possessed corpses, the ritually made vampires working the geomancy
    --[X]Marble Skin + Steelskin + Impervious Skin of Stone + Dexterity Excellency + Hunter's Bolt: 3m
    --[X]Flare anima to reveal ghosts and spirits + roll Supernatural Awareness
    --[X]Prepare to activate Warding of Divine Ancestry
    [X] Plan: Make Ready and Strike plus stunt
    -[X] Focus on the mortal warlocks, she could kill them far more freely than the wardens and they use their power on the Black Court things
    --[X]Marble Flesh Willpower roll no cost
    --[X] Steel Skin 1 Essence
    --[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation 1 Essence
    --[X] Dexterity Excellency 1 Essence
    --[X] Hunters Bolt No Cost
    -[x][Stunt] Lydia strode forward without fear, but inspiring much as bolts flew from her glowing hand and she ignored all attacks against her. Dead faltering as something far more implacable then death came against them.
    [X] Focus on the mortal warlocks, she could kill them far more freely than the wardens and they use their power on the Black Court things
Click to expand...
 
Yog said:
You don't know that at all. How long is the ritual that is needed to transform a dead body into a blampire (without another blampire already being present)? What are the required material components? Can it be done at any day of the month / year or only when the stars are right? You don't know that.
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Its not a Blampire, its something that involved necromancy.
Arawn said it wasnt the Dead, and if someone would be able to distinguish between a Blampire and some weird necromancy construct, it would be the death god who carried Mab's necromantic hatchet for a millenium.


We know from Dead Beat that while some necromantic rituals are grand elaborate affairs like the Darkhallow that require particular days and reagents and preptime, plenty of others take seconds at best, minutes at worst.

We see Grevane turn a security guard into a superzombie in a couple minutes, tops, with nothing besides his dead body.
We see Kumori bring a dying man back to life with a touch of her hand and keep him there for the rest of the night.
We see Capriocorpus stealing the body of Anastacia Luccio in literally fractions of a second.

This entire affair kicked off around an hour ago.
Ergo, we have a good idea of the time requirements involved.
 
uju32 said:
Its not a Blampire, its something that involved necromancy.
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We were point blank told they're vampires made through necromancy with the strong implication that they're blamps.

My read on Arawn's point was that Blamps are unnatural monsters and won't react like the natural Dead Lydia is used to. They're basically chest bursting parasites that feed on and defile death, not citizens of the metaphorical kingdom Lydia is a princess of.
 
BronzeTongue said:
We were point blank told they're vampires made through necromancy with the strong implication that they're blamps.

My read on Arawn's point was that Blamps are unnatural monsters and won't react like the natural Dead Lydia is used to. They're basically chest bursting parasites that feed on and defile death, not citizens of the metaphorical kingdom Lydia is a princess of.
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Lydia thinks they're Black Court vampires made through necromancy. But Lydia has low Occult.

Arawn was there when Lydia met Nathan Cobbler in Vegas, and as far as we are aware, he didnt freak out over that.
So given as he is explicitly freaking out worse over this than anything before?
I get the impression that whatver this is, its worse than a vampire.
 
uju32 said:
Lydia thinks they're Black Court vampires made through necromancy. But Lydia has low Occult.

Arawn was there when Lydia met Nathan Cobbler in Vegas, and as far as we are aware, he didnt freak out over that.
So given as he is explicitly freaking out worse over this than anything before?
I get the impression that whatver this is, its worse than a vampire.
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I think he's talking about the Author's Note at the end.
 
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Arc 14 Interlude 5: Dance Macabre
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    • Dance Macabre ​

    18th of February 2007 A.D.

    Why did the bad guys always end up underground? It was a question I'd asked myself a dozen times and never found the answer to. Maybe it was the opposite of why wizards loved towers so much, I'd have liked one too but getting a penthouse in Chicago requires selling your soul to hell, renting it back and then subletting to them again. Also the spooky not music made of unspeakable silences, always a classic. "Hey Morgan, don't suppose you know how many druids the Council has stacked down here?"

    "If I knew what earthly reason would I have to not tell you already," my personal nemesis got out, former personal nemesis I hoped, but it was hard to tell.

    "I don't know, maybe you forgot. I forget stuff all the time." Smiling wasn't easy in the murky depths with nothing but the search lights of the War Weavers to break the darkness, but I managed one. Like I might forget all the times you tried to get me killed for Black Magic just to prove your gut's always right if you're going to be less of an asshole.

    "I don't, it'd get you killed in this line of work." A long pause followed during which I had been left to wonder if he had seen my offer to bury the hatchet and chosen to bury it in my metaphorical back. "Heads up Dresden, being blind to what's in front of you's even worse."

    I may not forget, but I can change my mind if given evidence. At least that's what I hoped he was saying. Alas Morgan was also talking about the damned hole they were in, a fact I was reminded of in that moment by a sudden flash of light up ahead as continuous beams of green-white spellfire carved a path though another mound or rubble to reveal...

    Imagine a tomb, a normal kind of Romanesque tomb, alcoves in the wall for lanterns, marble slates lined up to carry the bones, jars of offerings set at the foot of each one. Now imagine everything is covered in blood, fresh blood, like someone had killed a herd of elephants, and it was starting to melt inwards like wax in front of a candle flame.

    Four living wizards hooded and cowled like well... Cowl stood on the edges of the room, but in the middle where the melting was stood another five, skeletal, pulsing red and stretched out like someone had pulled them on a rack. They also had fangs because I guess it was part of the trademark.

    "Daughter of Dust why do you come to us?" One of the... things asks as the focus in my hand creaks. I look at my blasting rod to see the polish that had been fresh a moment ago start to peel beneath my eyes.

    "Do you bring sacrifices?" Another asks, tilting its head like a poorly made puppet. "Do you seek boons as your father did?"

    "Interesting." The kid was stone-cold-sober, not even blinking like an effigy in marble and antique silver. "And what would my lord father sacrifice to such as you?"

    "The father of your true self, not the shade... shade's shade... shade's shade shade..."

    The way they repeated the word had the shape of laughter without any of the contents. Don't get me wrong I've heard evil sons of a gun laugh, the kind of evil that makes friends with the devil, but this was somehow worse, not even evil because evil at least wanted.

    "You know of whom we speak... The Sage, the Seer, the Master."

    "Touching as this little reunion might be, you have been called from your tomb for a purpose, fulfill it!" A half familiar voice commanded. Peabody. For a man who had betrayed everything he ever claimed to serve and believe in he looked surprisingly normal, maybe a little tired around the eyes, like he'd been pulling one too many late nights.

    "The Necromancer."

    "Ahem," Peabody sounded peeved, not the usual reaction to four Wardens leveling their swords. "Kill me and poor Aleron goes with me, I linked my life force to his. Now of course if any of you feel like unpicking a life weave where the merest error could kill, you are welcome to attempt it."

    My eyes darted to not-quite Molly... who was nodding. Nothing was never easy.

    Harry decided to?

    [] Re-Kill the talking corpses while they were busy trying to tempt the kid to the Dark Side

    [] Play Defense, he had been getting better at unmaking enemy spells lately

    [] Write in

    OOC: The decay aura is the effect of Nihilistics 7: Oblivion's Dance. Whatever you do, the living had better do it quick.
     
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    • [X] Answer a call from a ringtone of 'Beep Beep I'm a Sheep' then Re-Kill the talking corpses while they were busy trying to tempt the kid to the Dark Side.
     
    uju32 said:
    This entire affair kicked off around an hour ago.
    Ergo, we have a good idea of the time requirements involved.
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    If they haven't made preparations beforehand, then I reiterate - your logic doesn't make sense at all. Why are you ascribing total freedom of action to the opposition? They had an hour at most, in a secure facility where they still had to hide at least a bit. They had to do with what they had. If all they had were already long-dead wizards, then they obviously used those, even if they were suboptimal.
     
    Okay, Peabody there is this... unexpected. And it is very interesting that the summoned facsimiles know Kemler and respect him apparently. For some reason it begins to seem to me that even in his death, something is wrong. God forbid he managed to steal the secret of turning into an unkillable entity and is unable to die and now suffers eternally and wants to destroy everything that exists even more.

    But I think to trust Lydia and generally attack slightly different targets further. Otherwise, the lore is unfolding in an interesting direction. Perhaps we even see a conflict between two outsider factions in the case
     
    Kill it with fire!

    [X] Re-Kill the talking corpses while they were busy trying to tempt the kid to the Dark Side
     
    I mean i don't care, we can just take the kid into our soul to revive him if need be.

    The problem is that death looses its string if there are confirmed afterlives. Oh no the dude died, now he gets to live in heavan for all eternity the poor guy.
     
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