[X] You have a heck of a lot more of a claim to being different from them than I do. The world's complicated and messy, but we do the best we can. (Quietly explain your own law-breaking)
There have been some decent attempts at stunts for the second option, but screw that option. In Dresdenverse, whether you end up a monster or not is mostly down to moral luck. Whether you get drugged with something supernatural, or mindcontrolled, or gifted with magic with no instruction, or forced to break a Law for self-defense, or etc can determine that for you, with you having very little choice about any of it. Unless you are a martyr with heroic willpower, and sometimes not even then.
Dresden is frankly an unreliable narrator about Free Will. He has to believe what he does, because he fears that making any excuses would just increase the likelihood that he would "reoffend". That's almost certainly the angle through which McCoy taught him morals and philosophy, too. Remember, he didn't go through normal apprenticeship with him, but warlockrehabilitation.
It might not be exactly what Carlos wants to hear right now, but it's the truth and sharing her past experience will soften the blow.
There are some important qualifiers to that statement. The point of my stunt is to realign the discussion to something Carlos can grapple with, not deny there is an element of luck to this.
"Yep, the monsters can make you whatever they want" isn't an answer to his crisis. Especially because he's thinking in terms of whether his actions meant anything because the monsters didn't bother to turn him, which places entirely too much power in their hands.
The big bad guys would love for Carlos and everyone else like him to think that their opposition is futile and evil can make you it's bitch whenever it likes. This is not the case.
Sometimes you're just fucked, but you can fight them and you can win. That's why reality isn't dead yet. That is why the black council is so fundamentally conservative about everything; they have one shot like this and it will not come again if they miss. Even with Shaw they still had to trick him to use him in particular for this last service despite having him in the palm of their hand.
Stopping at all the messy rules and making him feel more alone doesn't help deal with the root concerns of the question: Is he good enough to make a difference? Can he or anyone else do anything or it is just a game to the monsters?
Note that the useful and immediately relevant parts of the nuanced truth are built into my stunt in a productive way. It's a real fight you can win at but aren't guaranteed to, and losing once can mean losing forever but doesn't necessarily have to.
The details can come with time and experience, but with the earth shaking under his feet I think we can do better than a shrug.
In this part, I think it's less that they wouldn't have another chance and more that they are greedy and want to have everything at once with a single blow. Their greed was the only thing saving the White Council from a disaster that, together with the Vampire War, could legitimately destroy the current incarnation of the WC.
In this, from the DP note at the end, I understood that they were doing it this way instead of more manipulation, because it was shown that they knew Shaw's mind perfectly well, just like Molly during that marriage where she realized the potential to control people with just superhuman abilities without any mental control, it was just the sadism of "hurting and making each other suffer".
They didn't believe they were on a clock or had an attack date to plan, this together with the narcissism and sadism that they all seem to show made them not worry about efficiency.
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Sep 9, 2024 at 12:35 AM, finished with 69 posts and 7 votes.
[X] You have a heck of a lot more of a claim to being different from them than I do. The world's complicated and messy, but we do the best we can. (Quietly explain your own law-breaking)
[X] Influence comes in degrees and free will is still important, maybe the most important thing
-[X] Use FPoR
-[X] [Stunt]: Turning to face him more fully, Molly locked eyes with him as directly as she could without a soul gaze. "The difference is and always has been what you choose, even when you don't realize it" with the sounds of a distant city in her ears, she lets a hope crystallized into conviction enter her voice.
—[X] "Shaw fought one against six and lost - but it was still a fight. Even once he was down some part of him still wanted to get up, despite the fact that he ultimately failed to."
—[X] "Call it good instincts, good upbringing, or good luck, but you are not alone. They did not allow you pass, they dared not bar your way without overwhelming advantage"
—[X] Gesturing between them and to the room she continued, a fire entering her voice. "We are each and every one better together. When one life flows into the next we cease being raindrops and become a storm; this they fear so much they will do anything to drive us apart"
—[X] "When they bring six we bring seven, when they break us to pieces we stand together, and when they seek us out alone we hunt them down together". Taking a breath some spell seemed to break, and Molly turned - perhaps a touch awkwardly - back to the food.
[X] Influence comes in degrees and free will is still important, maybe the most important thing
-[X]Stunt: Looking towards the sky "The difference is and always has been what you choose, even when you don't realize it, Call it good instincts, good upbringing, or good luck, but you are not alone. They did not allow you pass, they dared not bar your way without overwhelming advantage. Shaw fought one against six and lost - but it was still a fight. Even once he was down some part of him still wanted to get up, despite the fact that he ultimately failed to." Taking a deep breath that turns into a sigh. While looking down at the table you continue.
-[X]"Horace Shaw even though he was hit with mind bending Magic was alone. Inherently these warlocks and the not-man are a nihilistic impulse loneliness, deprivation, disconnection they prey on these things. Though he was affected by mind-bending Magic he had already largely separated himself, he had no one, no friends, no confidants, no allies hell not even people he interacted with on a normal basis. He believed himself alone and in believing it made it true. We are each and every one better together. When one life flows into the next we cease being raindrops and become a storm; this they fear so much they will do anything to drive us apart." Turning to face him more fully, Molly locked eyes with him as directly as she could without a soul gaze.
-[X]"The difference between you and him is you have people around you by hook or by crook who can notice who can see you Friend, Teacher, Warden, Ally. Humanity lives and dies by the adage if you want to go far go together. When they seek to break us to pieces we will stand together, and when they seek us out alone we will hunt them down together. Cloak yourself in allies, in friendship, in love and you will find a hand reaching out to you of their own free will and as long as you have any will of your own to reach out you can be returned, inherently isn't that the truth of The Doom of Damocles. Warden Ramirez." you finished softly nearly looking directly into his eyes.
[X] Influence comes in degrees and free will is still important, maybe the most important thing
-[X] Use FPoR
-[X] [Stunt]: Turning to face him more fully, Molly locked eyes with him as directly as she could without a soul gaze. "The difference is and always has been what you choose, even when you don't realize it" with the sounds of a distant city in her ears, she lets a hope crystallized into conviction enter her voice.
—[X] "Shaw fought one against six and lost - but it was still a fight. Even once he was down some part of him still wanted to get up, despite the fact that he ultimately failed to."
—[X] "Call it good instincts, good upbringing, or good luck, but you are not alone. They did not allow you pass, they dared not bar your way without overwhelming advantage"
—[X] Gesturing between them and to the room she continued, a fire entering her voice. "We are each and every one better together. When one life flows into the next we cease being raindrops and become a storm; this they fear so much they will do anything to drive us apart"
—[X] "When they bring six we bring seven, when they break us to pieces we stand together, and when they seek us out alone we hunt them down together". Taking a breath some spell seemed to break, and Molly turned - perhaps a touch awkwardly - back to the food.
In this part, I think it's less that they wouldn't have another chance and more that they are greedy and want to have everything at once with a single blow. Their greed was the only thing saving the White Council from a disaster that, together with the Vampire War, could legitimately destroy the current incarnation of the WC.
"Diverse methods of subversion, diverse mechanisms implanted, imperfect to a degree that makes open force unacceptable, an unacceptable risk... Consider the old sorcerer, the 'Hollow One' as you call him, he must have been cultivating the plot for decades if not centuries, slowly worming his way in. What odds are acceptable when what is risked is so valuable so unique? No such infiltration could be achieved again, not by the same means, not to the same scale."
In this, from the DP note at the end, I understood that they were doing it this way instead of more manipulation, because it was shown that they knew Shaw's mind perfectly well, just like Molly during that marriage where she realized the potential to control people with just superhuman abilities without any mental control, it was just the sadism of "hurting and making each other suffer".
That suffering is part of the nature of what they are. I don't think the choice was made purely because they wanted to enjoy his suffering. He in particular was vulnerable already but the fight wouldn't have been worth the effort for the reward, not when they'd get better results from tricking him. Even if you don't buy that being so sadistic that you self sabotage like this is a strategic weakness to exploit.
The point of highlighting this is that the forces of the Outside, Hell, and other bad actors can be fought but you have to be aware of all the dimensions you're facing them on. They'd love nothing more than the idea that they're undefeatable and simply toying with people, that the difference between their current victims and opposition is purely a matter of luck and interest on their part, take root. Remember the warlock we found with the Archive around the end of the thing with Summer?
There's an echo of that here, not in Carlos thinking he should jump ship, but in the lie the Outside is always trying to sell to everyone who sees it.
To my eye the better claim vote doesn't really address the base issue. It leaves it at a what he's done level without saying anything about the actual thing he's concerned about. The end result is potentially leaving him feeling more alone by drawing another line separating him from the person he opened up to about this first.
Not a lot of votes, but I get why, dealing with stuff like this in the middle of action can be a bit jarring. Lets see how Carlos takes it though.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 9, 2024 at 12:39 PM, finished with 73 posts and 9 votes.
[X] Influence comes in degrees and free will is still important, maybe the most important thing
-[X] Use FPoR
-[X] [Stunt]: Turning to face him more fully, Molly locked eyes with him as directly as she could without a soul gaze. "The difference is and always has been what you choose, even when you don't realize it" with the sounds of a distant city in her ears, she lets a hope crystallized into conviction enter her voice.
—[X] "Shaw fought one against six and lost - but it was still a fight. Even once he was down some part of him still wanted to get up, despite the fact that he ultimately failed to."
—[X] "Call it good instincts, good upbringing, or good luck, but you are not alone. They did not allow you pass, they dared not bar your way without overwhelming advantage"
—[X] Gesturing between them and to the room she continued, a fire entering her voice. "We are each and every one better together. When one life flows into the next we cease being raindrops and become a storm; this they fear so much they will do anything to drive us apart"
—[X] "When they bring six we bring seven, when they break us to pieces we stand together, and when they seek us out alone we hunt them down together". Taking a breath some spell seemed to break, and Molly turned - perhaps a touch awkwardly - back to the food.
[X] You have a heck of a lot more of a claim to being different from them than I do. The world's complicated and messy, but we do the best we can. (Quietly explain your own law-breaking)
[X] Influence comes in degrees and free will is still important, maybe the most important thing
-[X]Stunt: Looking towards the sky "The difference is and always has been what you choose, even when you don't realize it, Call it good instincts, good upbringing, or good luck, but you are not alone. They did not allow you pass, they dared not bar your way without overwhelming advantage. Shaw fought one against six and lost - but it was still a fight. Even once he was down some part of him still wanted to get up, despite the fact that he ultimately failed to." Taking a deep breath that turns into a sigh. While looking down at the table you continue.
-[X]"Horace Shaw even though he was hit with mind bending Magic was alone. Inherently these warlocks and the not-man are a nihilistic impulse loneliness, deprivation, disconnection they prey on these things. Though he was affected by mind-bending Magic he had already largely separated himself, he had no one, no friends, no confidants, no allies hell not even people he interacted with on a normal basis. He believed himself alone and in believing it made it true. We are each and every one better together. When one life flows into the next we cease being raindrops and become a storm; this they fear so much they will do anything to drive us apart." Turning to face him more fully, Molly locked eyes with him as directly as she could without a soul gaze.
-[X]"The difference between you and him is you have people around you by hook or by crook who can notice who can see you Friend, Teacher, Warden, Ally. Humanity lives and dies by the adage if you want to go far go together. When they seek to break us to pieces we will stand together, and when they seek us out alone we will hunt them down together. Cloak yourself in allies, in friendship, in love and you will find a hand reaching out to you of their own free will and as long as you have any will of your own to reach out you can be returned, inherently isn't that the truth of The Doom of Damocles. Warden Ramirez." you finished softly nearly looking directly into his eyes.
He doesn't need me to admit old faults, he wants answers, for all there aren't many I can at least try, you resolve as in the city of Amethyst, in a pillar-place inside your soul wheels turn leading just a spark more understanding as you look him in the eye, or as close as you can manage without letting him see within. "The difference is and always has been what you choose, even when you don't realize it" Hope crystalizes into conviction. "Shaw fought one against six and lost - but it was still a fight. Even once he was down some part of him still wanted to get up, despite the fact that he ultimately failed to."
"Yeah... yeah he did, but he's still done isn't he?" Carlos shakes his head and starts to look away. "The idea that there's still someone in there screaming to do the right thing even after all the things he's done. I..." a fork clatters into the plate. "You talk to some of the older Wardens, I talked to Captain Luccio and she said, it's hard when they're young and stupid, when they didn't know what they were doing, but you still have to do it because... because of people like Shaw, gone mask off. If even he's not all the way gone...? Why am I talking about this? Why am I putting it on you? Yeah I could have been in his place or that dybbuk last month could've gotten its claws in me or the siren two months before then. You wouldn't think there are sirens in California right?"
"That's a lot of things trying to get into your head." The line between perceived sympathy and pity is razor sharp here, but by his expression you manage to walk it.
"Yeah, now I'm wondering if the reason they didn't take me is because my brain was already claimed real estate." He tries to smile, though it's more of a grimace. It doesn't suit him well at all.
"Doubt it," you counter. Corpsetaker might have been able to engineer something like that, but even she wouldn't look bored doing it. "What were you thinking about when you broke free?"
"First one, there was this girl who just got married and her family was downstairs. Afraid of what it would do to them... afraid of failing, not being worth the cloak. Second one, I really, really don't want to drown."
"They really shouldn't have stuck you out there on a limb alone," you sigh. "I thought it was just a Harry thing, but looks like it's just how the Council operates." You can't help but wonder if the old guard, the ones who were around to call steam new-fangled just aren't used to the idea that wizards might need community since they never had it. The generation that comes after Carlos, the Trailman Twins might need it even more instead of being scattered like grains across all the cities of the earth. "We are each and every one better together. When one life flows into the next we cease being raindrops and become a storm; this they fear so much they will do anything to drive us apart."
"They can do more then try. They're going to send Bill or Yuki out to protect them, out to kill..." His eyes are haunted. "I can do the math you know, if they got me they probably got a heck of a lot more, my friends, my colleagues. Heads they kill me, tails they kill someone else and then I have to kill them."
From the hall you can hear Harry and another with heavy steps, McCoy's familiar voice is rough with more than age, but it's still strong. It was time to head to the Hidden Halls, where Carlos might have to kill his friends, or at the very least watch them die. You open your mouth to promise it wouldn't have to be that way, but you can't, not honestly. Strong as you are, fast as you are you can only be in one place at one time and you can't do anything to fix Lawbreaking the way your own Exaltation burned its influence from your soul.
"A lie told with enough conviction majesty can deceive the universe itself," the demon who is counsel and temptation speaks. For the first time in... ever you can feel the shape of a power you don't have yet, out of reach through a haze of black. The promise of false spring... it's meant to be a lie, a lure, the kind of tool the Hollow Man would revel in, but tell it enough times, tell it without price and damnation itself will freeze in black ice.
What do you do?
[] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
The Infernal offers reprieve from the torments of existence. This is a trap, but one her foes may willingly step into. System: The Infernal needs merely extend a hand for her target to understand that she offers relief from some ongoing source of misery. The Infernal may deliberately choose the sort of relief she offers, or may simply offer relief from whatever most torments the target. Examples of valid torments include the pain (and associated wound penalties) of injuries or chronic health conditions; a vampire's Clan weakness; a supernatural being's susceptibility to frenzy; a derangement of the mind; the drawbacks of a demon's Torment; an ongoing curse laid by a magician; or anything else the Storyteller feels is in line with the above examples
If the target accepts the Infernal's offer, she may sanctify the pact by spending 1 Essence. The target immediately ceases to suffer from the relevant torment. This reprieve lasts until for a number of weeks equal to the Infernal's Essence rating, or until the target refuses to do anything the Infernal tells him to do, whichever comes first. In no case does this Charm actually fix the problem – the target is still wounded, cursed, or deranged – it merely alleviates the symptoms for a while.
[] Make no promises, no matter how greatful the Merlin might be for this you're sure it will not extend to this
[] Write in
OOC: Glorious Infernal Sollutions always have your back (and only your back).
[x] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
I have wanted to get this charm forever. It would have been useful every arc.
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
I mean we had several times where we regret not having this charm so I see no problem to ensure it when it was already in the plans anyway in the future.
In addition to this I think we can easily fulfill our promise with Mutt (which I'm sure many have forgotten) without the need to get more AP to create a splendor.
Molly: But what do we use when we want to cover someone else's back?
Other Yozis: What? Why would we do that?
Ebon Dragon: That's the neat part. We don't! AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Ebby really had some input into his neighbors' charmsets methinks.
[X] Make no promises, no matter how greatful the Merlin might be for this you're sure it will not extend to this
Seriously, if there is ever a time to use such a charm it's not when the Blackstaff is outside the door with his ear pressed to it...
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
Just because some things are a temporary fix doesn't mean it's bad. The list of medications that are theoretically a temporary solution is so long that I have trouble imagining medicine that isn't Preparatory for surgery that doesn't make the list and even those are also temporary. Never mind the fact that for a month in remission for one essence and in exchange you are no longer addicted to murdering people with magic/Mind controlling/.... Is pretty good.
Just because some things are a temporary fix doesn't mean it's bad. The list of medications that are theoretically a temporary solution is so long that I have trouble imagining medicine that isn't Preparatory for surgery that doesn't make the list and even those are also temporary. Never mind the fact that for a month in remission for one essence and in exchange you are no longer addicted to murdering people with magic/Mind controlling/.... Is pretty good.
Ok. I want us to work on a permanent solution, but given the arguments people have made here, it's too useful elsewhere. Let it be and it won't eat up all our experience.
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
[x] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
-[x] "You know the Council has the tradition of the Doom of Damocles? Where a wizard vows to ensure a Lawbreaker does not fall to repetition? I have a more practical version of that, where the dark urges of Lawbreaking itself can be paved over, but the conditions are not lenient. It is not a path I would recommend, but I can offer it for those who were pushed into a dark place."
[X] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
I find the logic that a treatment is worthwhile even if we'd prefer the cure to be compelling.
This is the kind of power where we need to be forthright:
Explain the time limit, and advise that it might be wiser to avoid Molly for that duration if reasonably possible due to the "the effect ends if you disobey me" clause.
The 'shielded from your hunger if you serve me' power, and how Molly had chosen to offer it's effects should put her in good stead here imo - both powers have pretty awful caveats, but she's using them as ethically as possible.
[] Promise Carlos you will make sure none of his friends will lose themselves to Lawbreaking (Must buy Kakuri: False Springs Beckckon (•••) at next level up)
The Infernal offers reprieve from the torments of existence. This is a trap, but one her foes may willingly step into. System: The Infernal needs merely extend a hand for her target to understand that she offers relief from some ongoing source of misery. The Infernal may deliberately choose the sort of relief she offers, or may simply offer relief from whatever most torments the target. Examples of valid torments include the pain (and associated wound penalties) of injuries or chronic health conditions; a vampire's Clan weakness; a supernatural being's susceptibility to frenzy; a derangement of the mind; the drawbacks of a demon's Torment; an ongoing curse laid by a magician; or anything else the Storyteller feels is in line with the above examples
If the target accepts the Infernal's offer, she may sanctify the pact by spending 1 Essence. The target immediately ceases to suffer from the relevant torment. This reprieve lasts until for a number of weeks equal to the Infernal's Essence rating, or until the target refuses to do anything the Infernal tells him to do, whichever comes first. In no case does this Charm actually fix the problem – the target is still wounded, cursed, or deranged – it merely alleviates the symptoms for a while.
[] Make no promises, no matter how greatful the Merlin might be for this you're sure it will not extend to this
… How does this help? The issues he just talked about were all about people crawling into his head to make him a monster. FSB could protect you from black magic backlash but not what they directly do to you.
A major point of my argument was that they needed to mindfully look out for each other to avoid getting caught and helping deal with it when it does happen. Unless we're leveling up before going to confront Peabody then this is essentially planning to be under the power of monsters. Some sort of active defense to stop that from happening would be better on every metric.
I'd also like to point something else out about this situation in particular; not once does Peabody make someone else perform magic, even when it would have been obviously better for him. When he forced Lucio to kill he made her do it with a knife even though turning her into a warlock would have made everything worse for the council. When he tried to flee he had some young wardens grapple people instead of casting or even ordering the golems with them attack.
I don't think he should be able to make people use magic; his hypnosis doesn't appear to go so deep as to make people exert spell casting levels of willpower on his behalf.
