A Hellfish flys again! ( a Simpsons X DVV CK2 Quest)

And the vote is tied again with the goon.

I have repeated my stance on this but I have one final question to ask you who voted to ice this unimportant thug

Is this random thug really worth to kill? In the future if we have another vote like this about killing a person presumably in the future what justification are we going to say he's a bad person? they sell drugs to kids?

What point do we draw the line?

Thank you for reading this and I hope I did make you reconsider your vote I'm going to bed now but I just want you to think of for the night

Good night and uh I just want to show Mercy because in the world of villains victorious the heroes had no mercy given by the villains who won. I just wanted to show a small speck of mercy in the world of masquerades and just bad stuff in general.
Normaly villains that steal wealth, and do power grabs must be caught "the right way" but the moment "crimes against children" or "slavery" morals become surprisingly flexible, we are not killing a "redeameble Rogue" this is a monster (moraly not species wise) that used a shock collar on a enslaved child, name one person that would punish a parent wanting their pound of blood.

Could it be my cynic views, or the "moral event horizon" or the "acceptable targets" point of view.
 
Normaly villains that steal wealth, and do power grabs must be caught "the right way" but the moment "crimes against children" or "slavery" morals become surprisingly flexible, we are not killing a "redeameble Rogue" this is a monster (moraly not species wise) that used a shock collar on a enslaved child, name one person that would punish a parent wanting their pound of blood.

Could it be my cynic views, or the "moral event horizon" or the "acceptable targets" point of view.
Oh, I know we aren't sparing a redeemable person I understand that completely. I'm basically trying to say is it really worth killing this Friggin loser who hurts kids?

Let him go to jail he'll Get treated horrible by the other prisoners because there's rules about kids. Or taking them by the military since he's technically a sergeant.

We have to better. We need to be better
 
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Clearing things up (read If you would be so kind)
I do feel like I should make some things clear since it appers people have got some wrong ideas about what's going which i want to clear up.

whiteman is completely knocked out right now meaning he's not a threat to anyone and can't even defend himself.

this is not the killing of a active threat who can defend himself from you, right now for all purposes Whiteman is your prisoner and subject to your mercy.

This is not something Abe has done before in the war, he kill armed combatants not prisoners who couldn't fight back, (and if he did he would of been a war criminal)

Killing him is not the only way to get your pound of flesh. (the prisoners he would be in jail with would make sure of that)

This is not the only way for him to face justice (the courts and parents of Springfield would make sure of that)

This is a murder, there is no glory in this act, no honor in what abe would do.

If Abe let's fat tony do this then he would be just as guilty of murder then if he pushed the knife into whiteman's heart himself.

I will not sugercoat this, or make it seem nicer then it actually is.

This is a vote to see if Abe is willing to bend his morals and let fat tony get away with murder.

It's okay to vote for letting that happen, but I just wanted to clear things up so people don't get the wrong idea.
 
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[X] Arts and Crafts Center

[X] Tell him NO. Leave Sergeant Whiteman to the authorities. (You didn't have time to entertain him. You needed him to focus on the mission, Fat Tony will leave the cabin with you while glaring daggers at the fallen form of the fish soldier. You leave Sergeant Whiteman to the proper authorities to deal with him.)

I don't think Abe should get in the habit of killing POWs. Besides, we need to save that anger for Mr Black.

Also which series is Sergeant Whiteman from? My google fu is failing me.
 
[X] Arts and Crafts Center

[X] Tell him NO. Leave Sergeant Whiteman to the authorities. (You didn't have time to entertain him. You needed him to focus on the mission, Fat Tony will leave the cabin with you while glaring daggers at the fallen form of the fish soldier. You leave Sergeant Whiteman to the proper authorities to deal with him.)
 
Relying on the shittiness of the prison system for people to be 'appropriately punished' by other prisoners when they should by stated law be protected isn't more moral than doing it yourself.

We´re not *Relying on it*, we are *accepting it as a very real possibility* - and even if by some miracle Whiteman remains free of his fellow prisoners´ "tender mercies", he´ll still get the chair for what he´s done *Eventually*.

As I said before - it is FACT that he´ll die one way or another
 
We´re not *Relying on it*, we are *accepting it as a very real possibility*
I'm basically trying to say is it really worth killing this Friggin loser who hurts kids?

Let him go to jail he'll Get treated horrible by the other prisoners because there's rules about kids.

No? The argument clearly is 'don't worry, you'll get your fill of vengeance via the other prisoners, our hands will be clean and pure and righteous'.
 
No? The argument clearly is 'don't worry, you'll get your fill of vengeance via the other prisoners, our hands will be clean and pure and righteous'.
I'm not saying that. I never once said that we are pure or righteous for choosing the highroad with this guy

What I was trying to convey is that people who usually do bad things to kids tend to be not treated well by other prisoners they have a hierarchy from what I read are at the very bottom of that hierarchy.

I don't know why you think I was trying to make an argument that we are pure and righteous in this decision we aren't. We literally bribed the mayor and have a mafia man as our ally.

I'm basically saying, that's morally wrong to let Tony murder this guy who is currently unconscious like Ranger said and cannot defend himself he's not a threat
 
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I don't know why you think I was trying to make an argument that we are pure and righteous in this decision we aren't. We literally bribed the mayor and have a mafia man as our ally.

Nods

That´s why I keep saying that I want us to be *as righteous as possible*, because let´s face it: we are a Gridlocked Noble who has to commit some shady stuff to get anywhere - it´s only a matter of how dirty we are willing to get while still able to look our loved ones in the face with a clear-enough concsience.

As a soldier, we already did some questionable stuff, but back then we could still try to field the Nuremberg Defense of "I was just following orders", but now, WE are the ones giving the orders - meaning we can no longer hide behind chains of commands.

Now it´s all on us and I for one am unwilling to pretend anymore - that and I´d rather not dissapoint Kris Kringle again after he said that we were making headways towards the Nice List for good.

Call me a naive idealist, but I just don´t want to turn my back on it all anymore.
 
I'm basically saying, that's morally wrong to let Tony murder this guy who is currently unconscious like Ranger said and cannot defend himself he's not a threat

Then why did you include the bit I quoted? How does that factor into your claim that it's morally wrong to let him get murdered? What purpose does noting that they'll be mistreated in prison serve in your mind for your declaration that it's the moral path?
 
Then why did you include the bit I quoted? How does that factor into your claim that it's morally wrong to let him get murdered? What purpose does noting that they'll be mistreated in prison serve in your mind for your declaration that it's the moral path?
The people noting that Whiteman is unlikely to have a fun time in prison seem, to me, to be making a point that if someone's goal is vengeance and making him hurt for what he's done then it's not as though letting him live here will let him get off scott free. If Tony kills him then yes, vengeance is delivered in one way. If he lives though he will be delivered to the proper authorities and he will face consequences for his actions, both legal and social.

I will say that it sucks that the prison and criminal justice system is a mess and that, yes, Whiteman will likely not have any friends in prison because of his circumstances, but even with those possible consequences i would still say that it's a more moral outcome. If nothing else, the families of the other campers/victims deserve the chance to see justice happen.
 
The people noting that Whiteman is unlikely to have a fun time in prison seem, to me, to be making a point that if someone's goal is vengeance and making him hurt for what he's done then it's not as though letting him live here will let him get off scott free. If Tony kills him then yes, vengeance is delivered in one way. If he lives though he will be delivered to the proper authorities and he will face consequences for his actions, both legal and social.

I will say that it sucks that the prison and criminal justice system is a mess and that, yes, Whiteman will likely not have any friends in prison because of his circumstances, but even with those possible consequences i would still say that it's a more moral outcome. If nothing else, the families of the other campers/victims deserve the chance to see justice happen.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm trying to say. The people who want to kill him, want tony have vengeance for his son. They want Whiteman to suffer the consequences.

Me and the other people have been trying to say he will suffer much harsher consequences than just letting him die by letting him got to prison.
 
The people noting that Whiteman is unlikely to have a fun time in prison seem, to me, to be making a point that if someone's goal is vengeance and making him hurt for what he's done then it's not as though letting him live here will let him get off scott free. If Tony kills him then yes, vengeance is delivered in one way. If he lives though he will be delivered to the proper authorities and he will face consequences for his actions, both legal and social.

I will say that it sucks that the prison and criminal justice system is a mess and that, yes, Whiteman will likely not have any friends in prison because of his circumstances, but even with those possible consequences i would still say that it's a more moral outcome. If nothing else, the families of the other campers/victims deserve the chance to see justice happen.

I still find this morally dishonest an argument to make.

Person 1 tries to kill an evildoer.
Person 2 intervenes to state that they have full faith that the evildoer will still suffer extralegal repercussions, perhaps via vigilantism or by criminal social conventions causing the evildoer to be beaten, tormented and perhaps executed by other, less moral people, thus preserving Person 1 and 2's morality by just allowing it to happen instead of doing it themselves.

This feels like it comes not from a place of actual morality but outsourcing the immoral act to a hoped for act of unknown figures. Praying for the downfall of one's enemies and trusting in outside actors to do it without clear direct orders to do so but a cultural expectation of it happening.

Like tying up an enemy of war nearby a third mutually hostile party known for cannibalism. It's no longer on their shoulders that it is done, it is in the hands of another party, thus anything that happens is not their fault.

I could believe that one could just have faith in the system to see proper justice, unless one makes the aforementioned argument, then any declarations of actual justice being done by the system is tainted with an undercurrent of expectation of extralegal violence.
 
I still find this morally dishonest an argument to make.

Person 1 tries to kill an evildoer.
Person 2 intervenes to state that they have full faith that the evildoer will still suffer extralegal repercussions, perhaps via vigilantism or by criminal social conventions causing the evildoer to be beaten, tormented and perhaps executed by other, less moral people, thus preserving Person 1 and 2's morality by just allowing it to happen instead of doing it themselves.

This feels like it comes not from a place of actual morality but outsourcing the immoral act to a hoped for act of unknown figures. Praying for the downfall of one's enemies and trusting in outside actors to do it without clear direct orders to do so but a cultural expectation of it happening.

Like tying up an enemy of war nearby a third mutually hostile party known for cannibalism. It's no longer on their shoulders that it is done, it is in the hands of another party, thus anything that happens is not their fault.

I could believe that one could just have faith in the system to see proper justice, unless one makes the aforementioned argument, then any declarations of actual justice being done by the system is tainted with an undercurrent of expectation of extralegal violence.
I mean, my argument is explicitly that I want to see him face justice through the courts rather than be extra judicially murdered by Tony and Abe. My acknowledgement of the realities of the prison system is not an endorsement of that, in fact I'll go so far as to say I hope he serves out his sentence, whatever it may be, without any trouble at all.

Fundamentally, I view the choice as a matter of vengeance vs justice. If we give the order and Tony kills him, we achieve vengeance for our families. If we say no, we can make it clear that some things are more important than just us, that the families of Whiteman's other victims deserve to see that the man faces the consequences of his actions here. And I believe that they do deserve to see that, not just for them but also so their children see "this person did you wrong and they are being punished for it."

I consider that a much more moral result than someone who's voting for a whacking because they want to see Tony get his pound of flesh in. Who exactly does that benefit other than our most base desires?
 
I mean, my argument is explicitly that I want to see him face justice through the courts rather than be extra judicially murdered by Tony and Abe. My acknowledgement of the realities of the prison system is not an endorsement of that, in fact I'll go so far as to say I hope he serves out his sentence, whatever it may be, without any trouble at all.

That's a fine stance to have. I was merely noting my issues with the argument that vengeance will be served either way meaning that the moral option is to not take vengeance personally. That's what I'm focused on in this discussion.

Personally, I don't want to kill the man because I'm worried that becoming a fishman might have really messed with his head by design or incidentally and he would not have done this otherwise. But I'm not confident enough in my dedication to the quest compared to others to vote to prevent Tony from ending his life, so have abstained.
 
Vote closed!
Voting is closed!
Scheduled vote count started by Ranger65 on Aug 13, 2024 at 1:11 PM, finished with 100 posts and 36 votes.
 
Between not getting his way much this mission and getting Michael back safe, I think Tony is having rather mixed feelings right now. We should make sure to do at least one mafia action next turn, maybe even two if we can manage to swing it. Make sure he knows how much we appreciate his help
 
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