Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Aug 9, 2024

DragonParadox said:
A Lock's Purpose
14th of February 2007 A.D.

COMMENTARY
Huh. I wonder what Demonreach would give for a cable connection.

Given his comments about losing humans, access to human cultural output might help with recovering what he lost, assuming w dont simply do a magic on it.
We might want to consider if its worth taking the time to hook something up here, for both (some)of the prisoners and t

=====
Gossamer is rare but can probably be obtained in the Deep NeverNever. And human dreams.

Actually getting relevant, motivated help against a Denarian incursion is much more difficult to get; other than the Knights there arent many entities who are relevant against that sort of threat, and with Tiffany living in Chicago, the chances of Denarian intrusion approaches unity. And as Bob demonstrates, most supernaturals avoid getting into fights with the Fallen.

And I think Molly would prioritize locking down Chicago against attack over more shinies, especially since the Arcane Forge already makes crafting easier.

======

Artemis1992 said:
It's quest canon that Merlin is a half-something (demon, inkubus?).
That's how he had kids with then-Lady Mab.

Yes? Still mortal enough to be a wizard.
Else he'd be some other creature. Scions exist that are not sufficiently mortal enough to BE mortal; see Goodman Grey the half-naagloshii for example. Or Dresden's second daughter Bonae, the spirit of knowledge.

=====

Yog said:
We know that Harry is wrong here. He is saying that vampires tap into a different well of power, and that Kemmler (a wizard) also tapped into it. We know that's false dichotomy produced by Harry's religious views on the nature of magic (ie "magic comes from life"). We know for a fact that death magic is also magic. The skills carry over, Kemmler used the same power, and they can call outsiders. From the looks of the quotes, vampires can be full wizards, Harry just slots them into a different category due to his biases.

We dont actually.
In this same book, Harry draws a differentiation between Cowl's magic, which he explicitly characterizes as fundamentally human and pulling from mortal sources, and, say, Corpsetaker's, which is....not.

So when he says Kemmler the great necromancer and some other necromancers are pulling from a different pool of magic, he probably knows what he's saying.
Just like when he(Dresden)was pulling from Hellfire.

These are factual questions, not something that is determined by feels.
Harry is a person of strong opinions, but biases without some connection to reality would have gotten him killed, especially since there were Reds here until six or seven years ago.

The passage in Battle Grounds, where he comes closest to giving a mission statement for wizards, comes to mind.

I sent my will into the Spear, my own power flooding out along with Bob, infusing his essence, just as my will could have infused a circle of chalk or silver.

Ethniu staggered as the lights surrounded her, shielding her eyes—and then she let out a choking sound and screamed in denial as the circle closed around her.

Wizards are the gatekeepers, the defenders of this world. Or at least we are when we're at our best. And if some immortal thing rolls in here from Somewhere Else, we can say something about it. We can pit our will against them. We might not win, but with a proper channel and a circle of power, we can make them stop to fight us.

We've not seen anyone else refer to magic users of other species as wizards.
Not to my recollection, at least not formally.
There's likely a good reason for it.

fictionfan · Aug 9, 2024

Dmol8 said:
Congratulations. You now have an argument that a third of my argument is invalid. What about the other two thirds?

And while I'm at it what about the argument I brought up later in our conversation:

Why would the Molly we have been playing so far in this quest ever want to use that charm?

I addressed the other 2 parts last time you even said that in your response this this supposed to be some sort of gish gallop (which feels weird to do on a forum) where you keep throwing arguments and if they aren't all addressed at the same time they don't count? But to repeat.

fictionfan said:
Demonreach itself should be a place of desolation unless you don't think that the prisoners feel despair at the state of their lives?

Also don't care about them and in general they have negative moral weight.

Also plenty of them would likely jump into the pit if it meant get out of this prison after thousands of years.

uju32 · Aug 9, 2024

VOTE
[X] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail

RATIONALE
Gossamer is nice. Getting someone with a track record of killing at least one Denarian to reinforce our defenses around Chicago is, in my opinion, better. Certainly a lot harder to get, given as most supernaturals not named Dresden go out of their way to avoid hostilities with the Knights of the Blackened Denarius. Because they are just that scary.

Force them, and their minions, to only come to, or try to leave Chicago in the real world.
And act as a tripwire for their showing up.

Everytime the Denarians have come to Chicago in the books, Dresden never notices until they have been in Chicago for days and weeks and made their first set of moves openly.
Lets see if we can change that.

Lost Star · Aug 9, 2024

This is going to sound really silly, but I kinda wanna stuff a part of the spirit into a motorcycle to get a really sick firy ride.

Yog · Aug 9, 2024

uju32 said:
Gossamer is nice. Getting someone with a track record of killing at least one Denarian to reinforce our defenses around Chicago is, in my opinion, better. Certainly a lot harder to get, given as most supernaturals not named Dresden go out of their way to avoid hostilities with the Knights of the Blackened Denarius. Because they are just that scary.

Force them, and their minions, to only come to, or try to leave Chicago in the real world.
And act as a tripwire for their showing up.

Everytime the Denarians have come to Chicago in the books, Dresden never notices until they have been in Chicago for days and weeks and made their first set of moves openly.
Lets see if we can change that.

We have, and can obtain more fighters. We don't have, and are severely bottlenecked, by crafting resources. A steady supply of those changes strategic situation in our favor like almost nothing else.

Yog · Aug 9, 2024

uju32 said:
We dont actually.
In this same book, Harry draws a differentiation between Cowl's magic, which he explicitly characterizes as fundamentally human and pulling from mortal sources, and, say, Corpsetaker's, which is....not.

So when he says Kemmler the great necromancer and some other necromancers are pulling from a different pool of magic, he probably knows what he's saying.
Just like when he(Dresden)was pulling from Hellfire.

I was referring to Lydia's rebuttal of Harry in this quest.

Point is - there's no definitive statement that only mortals can have wizard magic.

fictionfan · Aug 9, 2024

Yog said:
We have, and can obtain more fighters. We don't have, and are severely bottlenecked, by crafting resources. A steady supply of those changes strategic situation in our favor like almost nothing else.

There are even dozens of powerful monsters in this very prison. If all we want is combat power then we are spoiled for choice.
[X] Try to work out a supply of Gossamer, assuming you can keep him going on something other than the dreams of mortals

BronzeTongue · Aug 9, 2024

Dmol8 said:
Okay then. There are five prohibited schools of magic in the Bible:

- Incantations/Whispers which is just spells that are blacklisted because they were unnatural/outside of God's power. So it's not all magic/power, but power that either doesn't come from God or isn't approved by God depending on which interpretation you want to go with.

- Divination. When it counts as idolatry.

- Mediums. When they consult with evil spirits.

- Sacrifices. When they are done trough fire and/or count as idolatry. Depending on which source is quoted.

- Necromancy. Now this one is more complicated than simply talking/interacting with the dead. In fact the dead are expected to walk the earth periodically for usually a year before moving on so interacting with them when they (are permitted/ordered to) do it is fine. It's when the interactions are forced by the living that this is prohibited.

At one point between Moses and the Israelites arriving into the Land of Israel and the first century BC there was a period of time where the most common method of Necromancy was for someone (usually a man) to starve themselves and then go sleep in a cemetery in order to get possessed by the dead or demons.

Under certain interpretations of the idea of Incantations/Whispers they are wrong because they are power gained trough/because of coveting and as such are violations of the 10th Commandment.

I see the other 4 prohibited schools of magic as forms of Incantations/Whispers because I played Master of Magic as a kid a lot and it left a mark on my subconscious thinking about this subject.

I had to painfully dig trough my own subconscious mind to explain my own upbringing and the cultural bias I carry with me. How did any of this matter in the context of my argument with @fictionfan?

You were making a strong and specific claim about the issues with SPS and our relationship with the white god. In particular that using magic the white god disapproves of has a noteworthy risk of breaking off/seriously disrupting our relationship with Heaven, and that magic would be judged by a covet standard set in the tenth commandment.

Concrete claims like this are good, but I don't see what you do here.

None of our sample verses on this topic explicitly draw a connection between magic and coveting as a sin. I'm of the opinion that if you want to claim rules to the effect of "don't kill people to read the future in their guts, attempt to speak with the dead, or bargain with spirits" are directly related to a common source then you should have some direct proof. There are too many alternative explanations unless you open up the definition to mean any desire for things you shouldn't have without examining why something is off limits. At which point the standard is meaningless.

This is relevant to the discussion because you're asserting this as a reason to subscribe to your opinion that we should never take or use that charm and implicitly as a standard for any others we take. Not making sense or having a clear basis in the alleged source undercuts that completely.

Edit: dropped part of the post.

uju32 · Aug 9, 2024

Yog said:
We have, and can obtain more fighters. We don't have, and are severely bottlenecked, by crafting resources. A steady supply of those changes strategic situation in our favor like almost nothing else.

We really cant.
Not on the scale of relevance to Denarian attackers.
There's a reason that Bob was terrified the first time Harry wrote down the sigil of Ursiel on a book for Bob to identify.

And frankly, this isnt a crafting quest. When we do need reagents, we have a good idea of at least two places to go looking.
Its a nice to have, its not a necessity.

=====

Yog said:
I was referring to Lydia's rebuttal of Harry in this quest.

Point is - there's no definitive statement that only mortals can have wizard magic.

1)Which Lydia's rebuttal of Harry?

2)Wizards being a mortal thing is a cornerstone of the setting and its supernatural power balance.

If I could, say, make Rampires or Blampires into wizards, and allow them to accumulate several thousand years of study and experience on top of their species ability to gain power with age and slaughter?
Mortal wizards would be irrelevant.

Dmol8 · Aug 9, 2024

fictionfan said:
I addressed the other 2 parts last time you even said that in your response this this supposed to be some sort of gish gallop (which feels weird to do on a forum) where you keep throwing arguments and if they aren't all addressed at the same time they don't count? But to repeat.

Also plenty of them would likely jump into the pit if it meant get out of this prison after thousands of years.

Oh sorry. I thought your argument there was dropped not that you thought you won that one. My bad. Also thought that one was only addressing my ethical argument.

So where I left off on that one was:

Dmol8 said:
Deamonreach itself is a Place of Desolation because Kemmler made it so:

As such we should be working on healing Demonreach from the damage Kemmler inflicted on it, the humans were there for a reason originally, and not exploiting it to fester the wound in the spiritual makeup of the island so we could spam Manchurian Agents.

From an ethical standpoint leaving Demonreach in the damaged state it is right now would be to leave it weakened so we could use Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••) and it would be leaving a part of the world perilous enough for humans to be at some point lethal to someone we don't even want dead.

And that is before the previous update demonstrated that Demonreach might object to Molly using her powers on the island.

As for your negative moral weight of the prisoners that I missed the last time I was replying to this:

It isn't about the moral weight of the prisoners. That is not how morality works. It is about Molly's moral principles and what being willing to put a magical gun to someone's head to mind-control them says about said principles.

It is one thing to mind-control someone in the moment to get them to stop killing people or something like that, it is a whole other kettle of fish to be willing to mind-control Edit: one's enemies no matter how vile so one can gain an advantage and/or minions for winning a conflict.

BronzeTongue said:
You were making a strong and specific claim about the issues with SPS and our relationship with the white god. In particular that using magic the white god disapproves of has a noteworthy risk of breaking off/seriously disrupting our relationship with Heaven, and that magic would be judged by a covet standard set in the tenth commandment.

Concrete claims like this are good, but I don't see what you do here.

None of our sample verses on this topic explicitly draw a connection between magic and coveting as a sin. I'm of the opinion that if you want to claim rules to the effect of "don't kill people to read the future in their guts, attempt to speak with the dead, or bargain with spirits" are directly related to a common source then you should have some direct proof. There are too many alternative explanations unless you open up the definition to mean any desire for things you shouldn't have without examining why something is off limits. At which point the standard is meaningless.

This is relevant to the discussion because you're asserting this as a reason to subscribe to your opinion that we should never take or use that charm and implicitly as a standard for any others we take. Not making sense or having a clear basis in the alleged source undercuts that completely.

Edit: dropped part of the post.

Again this is only a third of my original argument. Great, you have an argument that it doesn't work based on my personal biases. What now?

Edit: one's not ones

Degorium · Aug 9, 2024

uju32 said:
We really cant.
Not on the scale of relevance to Denarian attackers.
There's a reason that Bob was terrified the first time Harry wrote down the sigil of Ursiel on a book for Bob to identify.

And frankly, this isnt a crafting quest. When we do need reagents, we have a good idea of at least two places to go looking.
Its a nice to have, its not a necessity.

=====

1)Which Lydia's rebuttal of Harry?

2)Wizards being a mortal thing is a cornerstone of the setting and its supernatural power balance.

If I could, say, make Rampires or Blampires into wizards, and allow them to accumulate several thousand years of study and experience on top of their species ability to gain power with age and slaughter?
Mortal wizards would be irrelevant.

Naagaloshi, White vampires, Red vampires are all specifically called out for having both the ability to use wizard magic and having wizard level talents we our selves could use wizard magic if we so wanted to.

DragonParadox said:
To use magic at the cost of Essence? Interesting thought. On the one hand it would make you a worse wizard than an equivalent talent since Essence has to be spent in 1 mote packets, which is vastly overkill for any magic a beginner might use, but magic is very, very flexible once you get a grip on it. So I am going to say it is a path of research you guys can take, but you should be very certain you can deal with the XP expenditure, there is a considerably higher investment to get powerful effects, more than any single path.

So I don't know if you're being purposely obtuse or Your just not understanding what Yog is saying.

Though I do agree we have the ability to gather crafting materials we don't particularly need help with that plus I don't want that fire monster soul eater anywhere near mortal minds or bodies.

uju32 · Aug 9, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
You were making a strong and specific claim about the issues with SPS and our relationship with the white god. In particular that using magic the white god disapproves of has a noteworthy risk of breaking off/seriously disrupting our relationship with Heaven, and that magic would be judged by a covet standard set in the tenth commandment.

To be fair to Dmol8?
ExWoD does pretty clearly state that there is a cost to shit like that, but it only shows up mechanically if you were engaging in Soul Commerce and the value of your soul has to be assessed.

soul potential
Even the mighty souls of the Chosen may be cor-
roded by ill-use, or anchored less strongly than might
otherwise be the case for want of sufficient will. In
game terms, a value called Soul Potential determines
how much of her soul an Exalted diabolist may barter
away and still maintain sovereignty over herself. This
value is set at the time of her first infernal negotiation,
and cannot be increased afterwards.

To determine a character's Soul Potential, begin with
her permanent Willpower rating, and then subtract one
from that value for each of the following facts which is true:
• The Exalt routinely engages in acts of extreme or
conspicuous cruelty, regardless of any justification she
may feel for those actions.
• The Exalt routinely kills her enemies when other
practical solutions are available.
• The Exalt's will is not entirely her own: she is
subject to some manner of mundane or supernatural
suborning of her will, such as the Addicted Flaw or a
vampiric Blood Bond. In games that use the optional
Great Curse rules found elsewhere in this appendix by
applying them automatically to the Chosen, the Great
Curse does not count as a suborning of the will, as it is a
fundamental feature of Exaltation. If, however, the char-
acter has the Great Curse by way of a Flaw in a chronicle
that doesn't automatically grant their sort of Exalt the
Curse, then their will is considered to be suborned.
• The Exalt routinely victimizes mortals for no rea-
son other than her own advancement or gratification.

Take the value remaining after any subtractions
and multiply it by 10. That is the Exalt's Soul Potential.
It is not unusual for the Chosen to have 50 to 70 Soul
Potential – sometimes even highe

Otherwise, it appears to be mainly narrative.
Of course thats in WoD with an absent God who would take prompt note.
Here, its likely to be different.

Im making no arguments about the charm itself breaking the Thou Shalt Not Covet commandment, mind.
More the "dont be an asshole" general thrust of Catholicism.

uju32 · Aug 9, 2024

Degorium said:
Naagaloshi, White vampires, Red vampires are all specifically called out for having both the ability to use wizard magic and having wizard level talents we our selves could use wizard magic if we so wanted to.

No they are not.
They are mentioned as being able to use magic if they learn. They are not wizards. Being a wizard is not just about being able to use magic; most supernaturals can use some magic.

And no, we cannot use wizard magic.
Molly had her wizard magic talent burned out/overwhelmed/replaced by her Exaltation.
We tried literally the same night we came back from Arctis Tor. Thats why we're learning Path sorcery now.

Degorium · Aug 9, 2024

uju32 said:
No they are not.
They are mentioned as being able to use magic if they learn. They are not wizards. Being a wizard is not just about being able to use magic; most supernaturals can use some magic.

And no, we cannot use wizard magic.
Molly had her wizard magic talent burned out/overwhelmed/replaced by her Exaltation.
We tried literally the same night we came back from Arctis Tor. Thats why we're learning Path sorcery now.

So you are being purposely obtuse okay. Thanks for making it clear.

tenchifew · Aug 9, 2024

Tentatively:
[X] Try to work out a supply of Gossamer, assuming you can keep him going on something other than the dreams of mortals

fictionfan · Aug 9, 2024

Dmol8 said:
From an ethical standpoint leaving Demonreach in the damaged state it is right now would be to leave it weakened so we could use Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••) and it would be leaving a part of the world perilous enough for humans to be at some point lethal to someone we don't even want dead.

And that is before the previous update demonstrated that Demonreach might object to Molly using her powers on the island.

As for your negative moral weight of the prisoners that I missed the last time I was replying to this:

It isn't about the moral weight of the prisoners. That is not how morality works. It is about Molly's moral principles and what being willing to put a magical gun to someone's head to mind-control them says about said principles.

It is one thing to mind-control someone in the moment to get them to stop killing people or something like that, it is a whole other kettle of fish to be willing to mind-control Edit: one's enemies no matter how vile so one can gain an advantage and/or minions for winning a conflict.

I am not hearing damage in those quotes you seem to be reading between lines. I am just using the definition of a place of desolation in the charm the Or is important.

Ivar · Aug 9, 2024

[X] Try to work out a supply of Gossamer, assuming you can keep him going on something other than the dreams of mortals

Yog · Aug 9, 2024

uju32 said:
We really cant.
Not on the scale of relevance to Denarian attackers.
There's a reason that Bob was terrified the first time Harry wrote down the sigil of Ursiel on a book for Bob to identify.

And frankly, this isnt a crafting quest. When we do need reagents, we have a good idea of at least two places to go looking.
Its a nice to have, its not a necessity.

For better or worse, capitalizing on our crafting prowess and using it as leverage is our greatest asset, and we should play to our unique strengths. There are other face punchers in our orbit. We are the only exalted craftsman.

uju32 said:
1)Which Lydia's rebuttal of Harry?

This one:

DragonParadox said:
"Molly..." Harry stops and starts again twice before he finally settles on: "That sounds like a technically fascinating idea that the Council would kill you for having, or trying to put into practice at least. The Laws of magic don't just exist because of what Black Magic does to people, that's how it started sure back in whatever pre-pre-history wizards first started organizing, but wizards on the Council believe in the Laws the way you believe in the Ten Commandments, they believe magic comes from life and they shouldn't be turned against life, they believe that the minds of others are sacrosanct. The idea of someone mass producing a means that get around the Laws is would make the next meeting descend into a search for tar and feathers. The only reason they are going to think of why you would want to have a means to break the Laws on mass is because you're planning to break the Laws on mass."

"Magic doesn't come from life," Lydia interjects into the silence that once again falls after he'd finished speaking. "The Dead are part of the Essence of the world and so are magical as much as any living man or star or blade of grass."

uju32 said:
2)Wizards being a mortal thing is a cornerstone of the setting and its supernatural power balance.

If I could, say, make Rampires or Blampires into wizards, and allow them to accumulate several thousand years of study and experience on top of their species ability to gain power with age and slaughter?
Mortal wizards would be irrelevant.

Naagloshii taught magic to native americans. Odin taught magic to Merlin. They are capable of using wizard magic. And "the skills carry over" means, to me, that yes, a rhampire wizard convert can use magic too. Opposition gets a vote too, which is why you probably don't get multi-millenia rhampire wizards (if their court is even that old). They are priority targets.

DragonParadox · Aug 9, 2024

Adding to the above, Hell is magical, just ask the Fallen and so is the Outside, the idea that magic is a benevolent force that comes from and serves life is comforting to wizards but not very accurate as many who would delve beyond the lighted paths could tell.

BronzeTongue · Aug 9, 2024

Dmol8 said:
Again this is only a third of my original argument. Great, you have an argument that it doesn't work based on my personal biases. What now?

I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but it did seem like an important point to make because the argument had implications beyond the particular point. I'm actually inclined to believe that SPS is an awful thing to do to someone, that the white god would disapprove of doing it, and that we shouldn't purchase it*. But the argument about why adds presents a standard that doesn't exist to measure other charms by.

If you advance an argument in a debate with an impact on the outcome why shouldn't it be discussed?

* and from a purely practical standpoint we don't need it. We've got plenty of options for minion upgrades already.

BronzeTongue · Aug 9, 2024

DragonParadox said:
[] Try to work out a supply of Gossamer, assuming you can keep him going on something other than the dreams of mortals

[] He hates the Fallen, you hate the Fallen... see if you can work out some way for him to help the Knights, a firestorm of geologic proportions seems like just the thing to pin the Denarians in place and deny them escape to the Nevernever which they often fall back on when their plans fail

[] Write in

Is there any possibility of getting something like sponsored magic going? It might not be the best for us, but as a support tool to trade to others it's got potential. Even wizards benefit from this if you go by the DF RPG rules*; depending on the deal they can use it as an enhancement for their magic in exchange for considerations and the understanding that a patron wants to use and/or change you.

The full setup I was speculating about earlier isn't practical to implement soon, but setting up a deal where we set up a splendor to feed him in exchange for boosting authorized users without pulling any of the typical patron stuff then we could turn around and offer it as a subscription service to the council.

That would let us profit from whatever we get the council to pay in while positively impacting the war and earning brownie points with the wizards at large for being useful.

Serving three different interests at the same time would be great if we can swing it.

* Here for reference. The mechanics are very different, but the style of it is informative in terms of what this sort of pact can provide.

the DragonBard · Aug 9, 2024

We know Alfred knows something about Exalted, why not simply ask him about them?

Or what he wants in exchange for the info.

DragonParadox · Aug 9, 2024

Good night guys, see you in the morning with mystical deals and even more mystical level up.

DragonParadox · Aug 9, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Is there any possibility of getting something like sponsored magic going?

You already have. Olivia is a sponsored Minor Talent. You could also do it with VEE handing out big-ticket supernatural merits

BronzeTongue · Aug 9, 2024

DragonParadox said:
You already have. Olivia is a sponsored Minor Talent. You could also do it with VEE handing out big-ticket supernatural merits

I meant spending the favor (and potentially a splendor like the one we made in Vegas) to get Embermane to sponsor magic for other people.

Edit:
Functionally like how Harry uses hellfire in canon, which is a pretty traditional sponsored magic.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Dark Reaper