Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Bazooka point I think they just had those because apparently it's not uncommon for Tommy's men to just have military weapons. But I think we would have been attacked anyway because we broke the condition to keep Black Mirror Incarnation up at that River.

Our aura would have been spilling out into Vegas the second we broke surface maybe that singular interaction could have been avoided but then the rest continues as follows because we took damage only from that automaton and Sandra went to ground in the dragon's pit anyway.

Tommy's men still end up being hypnotized but we still completely avoided them using mundane disguises the only one that didn't I think was Dresden and that was at a fast food stop and he doesn't have a perfect disguise either.

Then the rest of the mission unfolds as it already did Sandra uses her chaos storm we go to harrowmont. Then we stormed the tunnels with our men.
They couldn't have been walking in plain sight with bazookas without getting into trouble is what I'm saying. That means they weren't out with them for long which means they knew we would be driving past at that time which means they were notified of our route, tracked us, and set an ambush. Most likely by Sarah who would've sensed us and was around with a veil.

BMI only cost one mote. We could've just reapplied it. That's assuming we wouldn't have taken a different path throughout the city and ended up getting to Sandra with less events in between due to going in with BMI in use. We started our journey in Vegas by following the weird car beast because we were sensed to begin with.
 
They couldn't have been walking in plain sight with bazookas without getting into trouble is what I'm saying. That means they weren't out with them for long which means they knew we would be driving past at that time which means they were notified of our route, tracked us, and set an ambush. Most likely by Sarah who would've sensed us and was around with a veil.



BMI only cost one mote. We could've just reapplied it. That's assuming we wouldn't have taken a different path throughout the city and ended up getting to Sandra with less events in between due to going in with BMI in use. We started our journey in Vegas by following the weird car beast because we were sensed to begin with.

We appeared in Vegas and saw the van and followed it didn't sense us until we like tried to commune with it. We saw some red Vamps riding around in the mouth of a Fey and followed it because that's fuckin really weird and interesting.
Watching the Watchers

12th of January 2007 A.D.

One does not usually imagine arcane travel as slinking out of a golf course's water features, but such is the way of Henderson NV, a strange mix of foreign and familiar sights: palm trees sway over the even driveways of three bedroom houses, nary a dream of winter in the air. Somewhere just around the corner one can hear the distant sounds of traffic, muffled by distance and bylaws meant to keep any daring drivers off the roads Even plots of land sprawl along the shore of man-made Las Vegas Lake, cleaner by far that the Wash you had passed through and yet one cannot escape the sense that all of this is in service of someone else, something else which the good people of Henderson would not entirely approve of.

The golf course, still in construction, which is why you choose it for your means of egress, seems almost cyclopean compared to the quaint little town around it. Maybe it's having recently been water, but you wince inwardly at just how much has to be pumped to make these hillocks green. Can't the whole thing be sand traps?

As you ponder the matter you allow the fierce hot sun to try you off, arcanely unnoticed by any of the residents. Granted anyone magically sensitive would have felt the waters heave then, but the particular poise with which you hold yourself cares nothing for the nearness of the observer or the means by which they do so. A wizard and his scrying globe or someone watching a live feed on their security camera is just as vulnerable as that fellow over there in the Hawaiian pants looking with longing at the halcyon glory of golfing-to-be.

Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 13/15 (ATP and Etiquette Excellency)

Of course the issue is that everyone else isn't going to benefit from as solid of a veil, so instead of ducking into the nearest shed to get everyone here you decide to wait and watch, see what kind of welcoming party the whirling of the waters may have elicited. At firs the answer seems to be nothing, perhaps all the movers and shakers are busy on the Strip. Then, about forty minutes after you had come on the scene, a 1983 Chevy van trundles down the street, looking rather lost since it seems to be older than anything in this neighbourhood. Then the headlights flare on not the washed out white one would expect, but a ghostly blue... that no one else on the street seems to notice. Where you had crossed the road to get a better vantage point it marks splotches of glowing green.

Two men leave the van, wearing polo shirts and cargo shorts, in a manner that is anything but casual. Though unalike in features they are so similar in manner as to be confused for brothers. Partners then... and not in any peaceful trade from the bulges each keep at their hips. Intrigued you look deeper... and find the swirling red-black auras of the Red Court marked with the even white flashes that show them too be alert, motivated, but not overly worried. They actually are brothers, you realize after a moment, not in any mortal manner, but by the tainted blood that made them as they are. As for the van, well its a lot more interesting even than you first thought: Glamor Alive-not a van-not-made-a creature bound to serve, a colossal hunting hound, almost.. fey. Fortunately it seems entirely baffled by the trail in front of it.

Lost 2 Essence (Hellscry and ATB) -> Now at 11/15

You revise your estimation of the two vampires' bravery up two notches and their wits down the same amount, to be willing to ride around in what you are pretty sure is the creature's mouth, particularly as the false-car bears them clashing auras of bruise purple and and poisonous yellow, hatred and disdain. The closest comparison you can come to is how one might feel about an infestation of tapeworms

What do you do?
Had nothing to do with us being sensed.
 
A two dot discipline power in Auspex aura sight allows a vampire to tell that this person is an infernal. Because Black Mirror Incarnation without Dragon Paradox is Homebrew Only Fools the five senses. Extra sensory effects like being able to tell the shape of the soul of another being or being able to directly perceive the prime signature of other beings etc etc would immediately pierce it. It wouldn't tell you the identity of the infernal in question that would be piercing the actual illusion but the illusion does nothing to hide the nature of the being in question.
You're forgetting what the sight is for DF wizards.

It's not a cute rebrand of WoD's mage senses; it's a scary perfect tier sensory effect. When Harry tries to use in on an angel to see through the seeming on their weapon they don't turn up the settings on their illusions, they physically reach out to stop him.

The books treat the sight as functionally unstoppable save for the fact that it doesn't protect the wizard from seeing what they see. If it's covering Molly's aura then some basic auspex nonsense shouldn't be piercing it out of hand.

This wouldn't be the first charm to be tweaked for the quest's purposes in any case.
 
Even Superman can't pull a trigger with his eyelids, but they aren't any less bulletproof than the rest of him.
I like it a lot.
Had nothing to do with us being sensed
Why do you think the van stopped there to begin with?
After a brief investigation, that to their credit involves taking water and soil samples the pair of vampires get back in their faux-van and drive right around.
The van or something/one else sensed us and sent them to investigate.
 
If I'm reading this correctly, would it be fair to say we can make clones based on Molly's Intimacies?

Because I shudder to think what will happen if she fails/succeeds and makes a clone based on her crush on Dresden. Talk about embarrassing. :oops:
Yeah, but not exclusively those because they don't define all of a person.

And yeah, that would be a good example of a low roll. Though I think it'd be better to implement it not so much her crush on Dresden as the part of her that likes him and the things that motivate her to do so.

This is supposed to be about the infernal on a very personal level, so the center of gravity should be on them and not other people.

Which would be super embarrassing anyway, but still.
 
You're forgetting what the sight is for DF wizards.

It's not a cute rebrand of WoD's mage senses; it's a scary perfect tier sensory effect. When Harry tries to use in on an angel to see through the seeming on their weapon they don't turn up the settings on their illusions, they physically reach out to stop him.

The books treat the sight as functionally unstoppable save for the fact that it doesn't protect the wizard from seeing what they see. If it's covering Molly's aura then some basic auspex nonsense shouldn't be piercing it out of hand.

This wouldn't be the first charm to be tweaked for the quest's purposes in any case.
No no I was calling out the base text of the charm without Dragon paradox's additions that are good. Without them the charm is terrible because it only fools Mortals. The reason I mentioned those powers in that order is because those would allow you to see through the base text charm they wouldn't tell you the identity of the infernal in question but you would be able to tell from their aura what they were, what they felt like and if you memorized it enough who they were if they ever dropped it in your presence. The fact it takes the sight to pierce it now is good because otherwise it's a shit charm.
 
I like it a lot.

Why do you think the van stopped there to begin with?

The van or something/one else sensed us and sent them to investigate.
That runs into the same problem of use anonymity through propriety before getting into the river again. Literally ATP means that no one could have even sent out an alert if we had used it before we got in the river. Which in this case is the same as using Black Mirror Incarnation before getting into the river. Except it's cheaper by one Essence to use Black Mirror incarnation. Which I've said my piece on mote economy.
 
That runs into the same problem of use anonymity through propriety before getting into the river again. Literally ATP means that no one could have even sent out an alert if we had used it before we got in the river. Which in this case is the same as using Black Mirror Incarnation before getting into the river. Except it's cheaper by one Essence to use Black Mirror incarnation. Which I've said my piece on mote economy.
We used ATP before entering Las Vegas through the river. ATP doesn't cover our demon aura though so it was sensed even if they didn't know it was us and we hadn't turned it off. That's why the van stopped and they collected samples to investigate.
 
A two dot discipline power in Auspex aura sight allows a vampire to tell that this person is an infernal.
God no. I dont know what gave you that idea.

The Sight is a perfect effect where the wizards who use it risk permanent injury every time they use it. Molly had to coach Dresden through trying a variant on her so he could do it without maiming himself. Even Elder Auspex doesnt compare, let alone a dinky 2-dot effect.

Thats the order of effect it takes to punch through it.
Because Black Mirror Incarnation without Dragon Paradox is Homebrew Only Fools the five senses. Extra sensory effects like being able to tell the shape of the soul of another being or being able to directly perceive the prime signature of other beings etc etc would immediately pierce it. It wouldn't tell you the identity of the infernal in question that would be piercing the actual illusion but the illusion does nothing to hide the nature of the being in question.
BMI doesnt say "only five senses" it says "all five senses". Key word ALL.
That in combination with the reference to a perfect illusion makes it clear that its supposed to apply to all senses, even if you choose to spontaneously develop new ones.

You are seriously comparing a 5-dot Solaroid charm to a 2-dot vampire Discipline power.

EDIT
Are there even extra senses in WoD or DF?
Off the top of my head, magic senses and the like are interpreted as variants of the existing five senses.
 
The charm explicitly only effect the 5 senses, all forms of supernatural perception pierce the charms effect. Yes this is perfectly in keeping for Infernal charms a lot of them have big glaring weakness, that other exalted don't have to deal with.
 
The charm explicitly only effect the 5 senses, all forms of supernatural perception pierce the charms effect. Yes this is perfectly in keeping for Infernal charms a lot of them have big glaring weakness, that other exalted don't have to deal with.
The QM has stated otherwise. If you disagree take it up with DragonParadox and stop spreading misinformation please.
 
God no. I dont know what gave you that idea.

The Sight is a perfect effect where the wizards who use it risk permanent injury every time they use it. Molly had to coach Dresden through trying a variant on her so he could do it without maiming himself. Even Elder Auspex doesnt compare, let alone a dinky 2-dot effect.

Thats the order of effect it takes to punch through it.

BMI doesnt say "only five senses" it says "all five senses". Key word ALL.
That in combination with the reference to a perfect illusion makes it clear that its supposed to apply to all senses, even if you choose to spontaneously develop new ones.

You are seriously comparing a 5-dot Solaroid charm to a 2-dot vampire Discipline power.

EDIT
Are there even extra senses in WoD or DF?
Off the top of my head, magic senses and the like are interpreted as variants of the existing five senses.
Yes there are extra senses in world of Darkness. Psychic and mind Senses at that never mind Prime senses and Aura senses. It is not supposed to apply to all possible senses that's fuckin insane.

Flawlessly Impenetrable Disguise (•••)
The Solar becomes a master of disguise, able to
appear as whoever or whatever she likes with only a few
moments of preparation.
System: The difficulty to see through any of the
Solar's disguise attempts is permanently set at 9. By
spending 1 Essence, the character can make her disguise
absolutely perfect so long as she chooses to maintain it,
even mimicking supernatural elements such as a vampire's
pale aura, lack of breath, and room-temperature
flesh. These are tricks and cosmetic imitations, and
won't grant any special powers (the Solar does still need
to breathe, even if it looks like she doesn't, and she still
maintains her human Attributes even if she convincingly
appears to have become an 8-foot-tall werewolf).
Notice how the language specifically calls out mimicking Supernatural elements or changing Supernatural elements so you don't appear to still be a solar when you use it. And how Black Mirror Incarnation does not. There's a reason I was like what why it's terrible without Dragon paradox's additions
 
Thought I'd take a shot at a variant clone charm based on what's been talked about so far:



The first of all acts was to name. Each titan tearing themselves from the roiling chaos and defining themselves against it. A fact that no debasement could ever wholly take from them.



Echoing that act their heirs turn their hands on their own souls; naming each part according to their own design, thereby becoming in small part like those spoke themselves into being.



System:

The infernal spends 5 essence and meditates for at least one scene, turning inwards to look at their own soul. Once there, she must make a willpower roll to search her own memories for something that defines her.



It can be nearly anything; important memories, strong beliefs, trauma, what matters is that it's true and personal to the exalt. This can be very unpleasant, and lower successes should result in facing less comfortable things.



Whatever she finds, the infernal then names and begins the process of shaping into a new facet of her soul. She may have no more than her essence rating of these, and if one is destroyed the element of her soul it embodies is numbed in whatever manner is appropriate until she repeats this ritual at +2 DC to find and reform it.



If the infernal dies instead her essence manifests as screaming wind and flees to the nearest clone, killing it in her place. This wounds the infernal's spirit, dropping her one essence level that may not be regained by any means before she reforms the facet she replaced.



Once named facets may be embodied or dispelled with a thought, supposing they aren't currently destroyed and are in the infernal's presence, but she must pay 1 mote to copy over any memories directly.



As they are subordinate faces of the infernal's soul she may not use her charms through them to directly affect the world. However, as they are still part of her they may still affect themselves.



In general this means abilities that solely impact the infernal and do not rely on active interaction. The infernal may not use excellency through a clone any more than she may fire a shotgun with her nose, but can defend any part of her 'face' with equal strength. When doing so they share the infernal's essence pool.



By default the clones form as an approximation of the infernal as a mortal but for the same resource investment as making one outright she may invest them with the appropriate number of arcana features.



If the infernal has a hell they may spend one arcana feature point to provide an emanation style return function. By spending one willpower they may vanish in a burst of flaying wind to return to her hell. This counts as a clone death for the purposes of this charm.



This got away from me a bit, but the basic idea is to thematically lean into the primordial ascension thing and make actually producing the clones more flavorful. It resolves the balance issue with exalted clones using that same metaphor.



Charms are soul organs, and the clones are faces instead of hands. Even Superman can't pull a trigger with his eyelids, but they aren't any less bulletproof than the rest of him.



Note that I chose abilities and not charms very specifically there; if we want to play the harmonica/cast fire bolt with our nose that'd need special training as a mortal like the current ruling requires. So defenses are okay, potentially including soak boosts, but no free circle of excellency fueled ritual casters or whatever.



The arcana stuff is a baseline improvement to mitigate issues, which we pay for with the actual material cost and additional importance of each clone. We can't change the base stats, so adding features shouldn't be too broken. The emanation thing seems fitting to me too; these are a type of Molly-demon after all.



Thoughts?

That is actually a really impactful and smart independent charm it's a terrible replacement for splintered Gale though. Because SGI isn't meant to be beings that you are fully attached to or care about in any significant sense they are little winds that break off from the main storm and eventually rejoin.
 
Yes there are extra senses in world of Darkness. Psychic and mind Senses at that never mind Prime senses and Aura senses. It is not supposed to apply to all possible senses that's fuckin insane.
They all appear to be interpreted or portrayed as variants of the existing 5 senses.
Someone sensing Prime or Mind senses it as a visual sensation, or an auditory one, or something similar.
I have not seen anything that says there exists entirely new types of senses in either source universe.

Notice how the language specifically calls out mimicking Supernatural elements or changing Supernatural elements so you don't appear to still be a solar when you use it. And how Black Mirror Incarnation does not. There's a reason I was like what why it's terrible without Dragon paradox's additions
And BMI didnt think it was necessary. It just said "perfect illusion" and there are no flaws.
Black mirror incarnation (•••••)
The Infernal breathes upon the black mirror of her heart, and becomes someone else.

System: The Infernal spends 1 Essence, spends a moment concentrating, and dons a perfect illusion which causes her to appear to be someone else. This can be either a real person, or a fictitious individual of the Infernal's de- vising. This illusion fools all five senses. Deduction may reveal the Infernal for an impostor, but imperfections in the disguise itself never will. The illusion persists until the Infernal reflexively dismisses it, or until her anima flares.
No gaps. No inconsistencies for the perceiver to notice.
The QM nerfed it here, so as to fit into the quest setting; by its base phrasing its one of the few charms that appears outright more comprehensive than the Solar variant.
 
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And BMI didnt think it was necessary. It just said "perfect illusion" and there are no flaws.
No gaps. No inconsistencies for the perceiver to notice.
The QM nerfed it here, so as to fit into the quest setting; by its base phrasing its one of the few charms that appears outright more comprehensive than the Solar variant.
No, "imperfections in the disguise" is stuff like getting the eye color wrong, or having an arm being visible when you are imitating someone armless. It's not "fooling all the senses, beyond 5 basic ones".

Also, I'd like to point out that if sight can see through BMI, then pretty much everyone who we really want this charm for will be able to see through it.
 
They all appear to be interpreted or portrayed as variants of the existing 5 senses.
Someone sensing Prime or Mind senses it as a visual sensation, or an auditory one, or something similar.
I have not seen anything that says there exists entirely new types of senses in either source universe.


And BMI didnt think it was necessary. It just said "perfect illusion" and there are no flaws.

No gaps. No inconsistencies for the perceiver to notice.
The QM nerfed it here, so as to fit into the quest setting.
Yeah, it's a perfect illusion. No one can tell that you are who you are. That is the only thing they can't tell though. It does nothing to hide your spirit. Which by the way you can use all Auspex and Prime senses and Spirit Senses at that with your mind's eye. You can claim that that's also meant to be five senses but that's really stretching five senses considering that's literally called The Sixth Sense.
 
No brain damage charms please. No need to add weaknesses where there were none.
You're treating it as a bigger deal than it is. What I was going for was accelerating reformation of a spirit. It's not gone, but you've got to sort it back out to get things working smoothly again. Fixing it is pretty simple, and it's not like one thing getting temporarily numbed would make Molly an irrational sociopath.

We could drop it, but it strikes me as bullshit that parts of your soul can get independently stabbed in the face and not matter in the least, even at the level SGI works at.

Edit: error
 
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Also, I'd like to point out that if sight can see through BMI, then pretty much everyone who we really want this charm for will be able to see through it.
Care to elaborate with some examples? The Sight isn't opened willy nilly since it can drive you insane and the point of the charm is to be stealthy and not make people see a need to use such things on Molly to begin with. It would've worked on Sandra just fine combined with ATP even moreso.
 
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No, "imperfections in the disguise" is stuff like getting the eye color wrong, or having an arm being visible when you are imitating someone armless. It's not "fooling all the senses, beyond 5 basic ones".

Also, I'd like to point out that if sight can see through BMI, then pretty much everyone who we really want this charm for will be able to see through it.
The sight is a rare and esoteric ability, just being as magically strong as a wizard doesn't mean you have equal senses.
 
You're treating it as a bigger deal than it is. What I was going for was accelerating reformation of a spirit. It's not gone, but you've got to sort it back out to get things working smoothly again. Fixing it is pretty simple, and the it's not like one thing getting temporarily numbed would make Molly an irrational sociopath.

We could drop it, but it strikes me as bullshit that parts of your soul can get independently stabbed in the face and not matter in the least, even at the level SGI works at.
Splintered Gale is a strange charm I guess but also they are bits of you but you're supposed to just kill them if you don't like them. There's a reason it was so deep into the Infernal charm set by that point you essentially are a mini Silent Wind. Freedom let's go ,murder is meat these clones mean exactly jack to you when you're that deep shaving off little pieces of your soul and then letting them go is what you're supposed to do. What you're describing is soul hierarchy which is also a charm that you can get but not at all what SGI is meant to be.
 
Splintered Gale is a strange charm I guess but also they are bits of you but you're supposed to just kill them if you don't like them. There's a reason it was so deep into the Infernal charm set by that point you essentially are a mini Silent Wind. Freedom let's go ,murder is meat these clones mean exactly jack to you when you're that deep shaving off little pieces of your soul and then letting them go is what you're supposed to do. What you're describing is soul hierarchy which is also a charm that you can get but not at all what SGI is meant to be.
I did put different fluff up for a reason, the goal was to make something to fill the role in an interesting way without the same risks.

But honestly, SGI's house rules here do make it basically make it a soul hierarchy charm - look at any of the posts on how the soul structure of the clones works IC. That's why I approached it from this angle.

There isn't another ExWoD charm for this sort of thing, and Holden got rid of prereqs for everything, so I don't see why it shouldn't be done this way.
 
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