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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Degorium said:
I don't even want splintered Gale incarnation and we're both making insinuations based on the information that we know both system and story we don't actually know how nemesis infection works we don't actually know how much information it actually get some any of its hosts we know exactly jack shit for all we know he literally can't take over a host that is unwilling without some kind of overt action to infect them in some kind of crude inverse of his thief of all Lord of nothing affect where he has to publicly steal the thing to be its Lord.
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We lack knowledge so we make educated guesses yes. We don't know how much it gets from the host but considering it infects your mind and soul and literally becomes you while also being itself it seems more than likely it gets access to everything in the process. Nemesis is an Outsider stealth agent probably the best in reality(or was before Molly), I seriously doubt it has to reveal itself to the public to take over another host that's a ridiculous theory.
 
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BoredMan said:
We lack knowledge so we make educated guesses yes. We don't know how much it gets from the host but considering it infects your mind and soul and literally becomes you while also being itself it seems more than likely it gets access to everything in the process. Nemesis is an Outsider stealth agent probably the best in reality, I seriously doubt it has to reveal itself to the public to take over another host that's a ridiculous theory.
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I said overt action not reveal itself, but rather the action has to be overt. This can mean several different things like say a dagger coated in outsider. Venom or Blood splash over someone or any phenomenon That allows an entry into a body in an overt manner that does not directly reveal itself to be him. Actions can be overt and non revealing. Ask any mission in games where you plant explosives and then leave the action of the place exploding when you're gone is pretty overt, but no one knows it was you. I still don't agree with the entirety of that reading because that seems to be for the purposes of observation he is both you and himself but not for every purpose because that's insane you cannot be yourself and someone else without having any of the intimacies knowledge or abilities of both of those individuals and we see time and time again that He Who Walks beside does not impart his own intimacies to people that don't know their possessed by him and he never possesses any of the intimacies of those he possesses he still after possessing probably hundreds or thousands of people who want to live wants to disintegrate the entire universe.
 
Degorium said:
Man I love it the second we reveal the report it's now there is interest that have to be appeased shit's kicking off immediately I love it called it Ayo. Thanks for the interlude. Hey can we get a ruling on unweaving just so people actually know what they're buying because I think uju might be misreading the text on that in sorcerer revised and then pedaling it as something it's not?
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If I understand right the concern is if you can use Counter Magic to counter effects for which you do not have path magic? The answer is yes, but it is a lot harder for you. You are going to be taking circumstantial +DCs until you become familiar with an effect and unweaving it becomes routine.
 
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DragonParadox said:
If I understand right the concern is if you can use Counter Magic to counter effects for which you do not have path magic? The answer is yes, but it is a lot harder for you. You are going to be taking circumstantial +DCs until you become familiar with an effect and weaving it becomes routine.
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Yeah I fully agree with that. I thought you can use counter Magic on any effect that's cast on or near you but unweaving is a different thing. It's when we get to unweaving where we have disagreements unweaving is the undoing of already cast magic using path magic and the text for unweaving seems to suggest you need a path that is compatible or the same to do so.
 
Degorium said:
I said overt action not reveal itself
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I really don't see why that would matter. The scenario here is that Nemesis attacks a clone of his worst enemy the same way we did to his shards in summer, it wouldn't matter if he needed to stab them or not nothing is stopping him from trying with a strong body or minions.
Degorium said:
I still don't agree with the entirety of that reading because that seems to be for the purposes of observation he is both you and himself but not for every purpose because that's insane you cannot be yourself and someone else without having any of the intimacies knowledge or abilities of both of those individuals and we see time and time again
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Maybe it can. Nemesis is an Outsider and one compared to Uriel, it's fully possible that it's mechanics allow for that even if you think it's insane. It's not some ghost possessing you. We also know that it grows attached to it's host so it's infection does effect ego.
 
Yog said:
Even if they are pure humans (i.e. no passive bonuses like DPE, CCC, BSM, heal like mortals, etc), and IDU cannot be used on them, there's still alchemy. Alchemy 4 - get one recipe as some manner of study aid (DC adjustment on learning new stuff), then plot our clones in our best universities, or with private tutors. We should be able to get stuff like Politics, Finances, etc to at least 1 dot in a couple of months.
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That's fair, I'm not trying to give the charm too much more crap than I already have, just get an idea of what people are expecting.

Like with the alchemy thing; pretty sure we have a ruling that Molly's sorcery doesn't cross over because she learned essence and they learn as mortals. So we need to buy alchemy twice for the clones to use it.

I'll dig them up in a minute.
Goldfish said:
It's a lot of XP to spending something that won't be very useful right now or possibly in the future.

That's not to say it isn't worth acquiring at some point, but we have better things to focus on right now. Like BMI, which will let us hide our aura, perfectly disguise our appearance, and always have the right clothing for any situation.
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There are some uses, but the main problem is that Nemesis is definitely going to target them with everything it has when it learns they exist.

A rakashoid isn't going to pass up that sort of narrative tit-for-tat against a hated enemy, especially when doing so offers a game changing prize.

Some of the extra training will be useful, but I think letting them loose in reality with less coverage than "can escape a major outsider who's spent time targeting them specifically" is a deadly serious mistake.
Degorium said:
Well there are weirder things but even if the Clones act as just a kind of weird Library background for the things they learn they would be worth having. The Clones learn a skill or martial arts to a certain level and when we eat them and we decide to attempt to learn what they learned maybe we get a x dot dice roll discount on the XP or something along those lines like the library background. Because we do absorb them and learn what they know even if we don't commit that to memory instantly. So I can see it in that light but yeah I fully agree on the AP hell thing that it's never going away.
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Maybe, I was just hoping for some more explicit mechanical discussion on how we'll do that.
 
BronzeTongue said:
That's fair, I'm not trying to give the charm too much more crap than I already have, just get an idea of what people are expecting.

Like with the alchemy thing; pretty sure we have a ruling that Molly's sorcery doesn't cross over because she learned essence and they learn as mortals. So we need to buy alchemy twice for the clones to use it.

I'll dig them up in a minute.
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They don't need to make their own potions. They just need to drink them. And, again, Nemesis is not really an issue, as perfect anti-possession effect is a 1 dot splendor. And the courts are bound to have covert instant suicide implants.
BoredMan said:
Oh? Well nevermind with Lash then at least she's covered by the leading plan. Not the clones though as far as I can tell no one has a solid antiNemesis plan for them.
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There's a number of options. Assuming that "it can instantly coopt anyone without a perfect defense on contact" (a premise I still believe breaks the setting completely in a whole number of ways), we can make 1 dot anti-possession splendor (Form of Portentuous Moonlight - sacred protection fascination splendor in a form of a cup you have to drink out of, for example). We can make suicide implants against kidnappings - fivefold courts are bound to have some already developed.
 
It's annoying that y'all are willing to invest so much XP into a Charm of dubious usefulness, especially one that is going to take such careful management and resource expenditure just to prevent it from becoming a massive Achilles heel that we'll have to account for constantly.

Meanwhile, BMI is immediately useful right out of the box. Not only that, but we can use it every single day in multiple scenarios, whether it's just regular social interactions, for infiltration, for blending in or changing our outfit to something more appropriate to a given setting, right up to making our very problematic aura a complete non-issue going forward. We wouldn't have to worry about being detected from a state away, agitating spiritual beings with our passage, or simply frightening potential allies by our very otherness.
 
Avatar is certainly not dubious usefulness. I might have wanted to get it later because I want other things, but we are going to be using it constantly. We have so many commitments to keep track of.
 
Goldfish said:
It's annoying that y'all are willing to invest so much XP into a Charm of dubious usefulness, especially one that is going to take such careful management and resource expenditure just to prevent it from becoming a massive Achilles heel that we'll have to account for constantly.

Meanwhile, BMI is immediately useful right out of the box. Not only that, but we can use it every single day in multiple scenarios, whether it's just regular social interactions, for infiltration, for blending in or changing our outfit to something more appropriate to a given setting, right up to making our very problematic aura a complete non-issue going forward. We wouldn't have to worry about being detected from a state away, agitating spiritual beings with our passage, or simply frightening potential allies by our very otherness.
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I don't even want splintered Gale incarnation but the usefulness is immediately apparent if for no reason then we can make a one dot Splendor and have it go to school with cyanide pills. Which immediate clears up one AP off the top. This is before any of the possible xp gains that are definitely possible I'm not sure how that will manifest but we definitely do learn everything that the Clones do when we reabsorb them so if they spend time learning things even if it only like translate to a discount they are worth having. Then there's Black Mirror incarnation the fact it kind of assumes that people give a shit about hiding at all especially so soon after buying anonymity in propriety.
 
Yog said:
There's a number of options. Assuming that "it can instantly coopt anyone without a perfect defense on contact" (a premise I still believe breaks the setting completely in a whole number of ways), we can make 1 dot anti-possession splendor (Form of Portentuous Moonlight - sacred protection fascination splendor in a form of a cup you have to drink out of, for example). We can make suicide implants against kidnappings - fivefold courts are bound to have some already developed.
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It really doesn't. Nemesis has limited slots, gets countered by Uriel's plans(someone who can see the future and has intellectus), has to make a roll to get the body and there are other characters in setting who can sense it. Someone with limited slots isn't breaking a setting and we've no reason to believe some supernaturals above a certain level aren't effectively immune to it.

...Yeah that sounds like it would work. I keep forgetting to take into account what we can craft. I think everyone else forgot too because it's just now being brought up when we were talking about Nemesis attacking clones for a page or two. As long as we cover them with those two things and give them enhancements that seems like it would account for everything.
 
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Yog said:
They don't need to make their own potions. They just need to drink them. And, again, Nemesis is not really an issue, as perfect anti-possession effect is a 1 dot splendor. And the courts are bound to have covert instant suicide implants
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Nemesis may be an STD with attitude, but that's not all it is.

I'm not really concerned about direct possession, I'm concerned with them being taken while we're busy or distracted. Suicide implants are a start, but that's a lot to hang our hopes on.

A somewhat appropriate metaphor here is successfully pulling off diablerie on some 7-8th gen malkavian vamps, only to find out their currently mostly bound methuselah ancestor was actually attached to them for some reason.

Then sending your own childe out into the world a copy of all your secrets when they can trivially be identified as yours. What do you think the big vamp is going to do when he notices?

Countering one trick doesn't actually solve the problem.
 
BoredMan said:
It really doesn't. Nemesis has limited slots, gets countered by Uriel's plans(someone who can see the future and has intellectus), has to make a roll to get the body and there are other characters in setting who can sense it. Someone with limited slots isn't breaking a setting and we've no reason to believe some supernaturals above a certain level aren't effectively immune to it.

...Yeah that sounds like it would work. I keep forgetting to take into account what we can craft. I think everyone else forgot too because it's just now being brought up when we were talking about Nemesis attacking clones for a page or two. As long as we cover them with those two things and give them enhancements that seems like it would account for everything.
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Well there's the thing it didn't get brought up earlier because well if nemesis possession is rollable again we possess a near maximum pool no matter which type of possession you're talking about. If it's a willpower roll we have nine which is nine Dice and if it's actually resistible by any being that has willpower then the only thing that's better would be a 10 will power being or it's innate counter Magic which is wits plus occult which is still nine dice if it's in a counter magic then you can spend a willpower to get a success. Then there's the thing of I think I said it a couple Pages ago that the Clones can just kill themselves and we can make a lot of interesting ways for that to happen that might even kill whoever tries to take them. Or we could just give them swords as well because we have them a nine dice combat pool even in base form. To be frank it's considerably harder to imagine them successfully taking a clone that we prepare even a little bit rather than that clone successfully killing itself or killing all of its attackers or both.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Nemesis may be an STD with attitude, but that's not all it is.

I'm not really concerned about direct possession, I'm concerned with them being taken while we're busy or distracted. Suicide implants are a start, but that's a lot to hang our hopes on.

A somewhat appropriate metaphor here is successfully pulling off diablerie on some 7-8th gen malkavian vamps, only to find out their currently mostly bound methuselah ancestor was actually attached to them for some reason.

Then sending your own childe out into the world a copy of all your secrets when they can trivially be identified as yours. What do you think the big vamp is going to do when he notices?

Countering one trick doesn't actually solve the problem.
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There's the thing the range of tricks that you can actually pull on a clone of Molly are not exceptionally wide. She still possesses innate counter Magic because she's aware of magic and has some even if she is just a mortal clone, if she still has a melee of five and a dexterity of four, there are a range of tricks that are possible I will admit but if you're trying to stop and Molly clone from fighting you or killing themselves I'm at a loss of how you could do that because there is no power that just works other than instant kill powers if you wanted to do anything other than murder there's a roll involved. Which means if the Clone possesses a means of self-termination that is near instant or a sword that's a fight instantly and which point Aid can come from any direction whether that be white Council order of cauldron ourselves drones commandeered by Iris, Our Father, our friends with their laser pistols. This is excluding the fact that maybe we don't even deploy them in the outside world and just purely internally which would allow us to actually get to know the nooks and crannies of our world.
 
Degorium said:
I don't even want splintered Gale incarnation but the usefulness is immediately apparent if for no reason then we can make a one dot Splendor and have it go to school with cyanide pills. Which immediate clears up one AP off the top. This is before any of the possible xp gains that are definitely possible I'm not sure how that will manifest but we definitely do learn everything that the Clones do when we reabsorb them so if they spend time learning things even if it only like translate to a discount they are worth having. Then there's Black Mirror incarnation the fact it kind of assumes that people give a shit about hiding at all especially so soon after buying anonymity in propriety.
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Dubious from my POV. I acknowledge that it can be useful to a certain extent, but I know the playerbase and the paranoia SGI will cause, and the endless debates we're in for on how to correctly use it, how not to use it, how to safely use it, etc.

ATP is for effectively mimicking Invisibility. That's completely different from BMI. We can't always be invisible, for lots of reasons. We have to actually interact with people to get anything done that doesn't involve sneaking around unseen. The point isn't to hide, it's to be visible, either as Molly (however we need to appear, in whatever costume or style of dress, makeup, hair we need at any given time) or someone completely different, man, woman, child, Fey, Whampire, etc. And to be able to do it without constantly blasting the Aura of Doom out to actively broadcast what we are and where we are.
 
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If a cloned Molly gets implants, they can have bound Cyberdevils inside whose only job is to watch out for possession attempts and trigger a suicide implant.
 
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BoredMan said:
It really doesn't. Nemesis has limited slots, gets countered by Uriel's plans(someone who can see the future and has intellectus), has to make a roll to get the body and there are other characters in setting who can sense it. Someone with limited slots isn't breaking a setting and we've no reason to believe some supernaturals above a certain level aren't effectively immune to it.
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Assuming limited slots is a canon limitation, it still doesn't explain why it didn't take over White Council, or how Leanansidhe was able to resist it long enough to submit to cleansng, or why Dresden isn't a WHWB's puppet in canon, etc.
BronzeTongue said:
Nemesis may be an STD with attitude, but that's not all it is.

I'm not really concerned about direct possession, I'm concerned with them being taken while we're busy or distracted. Suicide implants are a start, but that's a lot to hang our hopes on.

A somewhat appropriate metaphor here is successfully pulling off diablerie on some 7-8th gen malkavian vamps, only to find out their currently mostly bound methuselah ancestor was actually attached to them for some reason.

Then sending your own childe out into the world a copy of all your secrets when they can trivially be identified as yours. What do you think the big vamp is going to do when he notices?

Countering one trick doesn't actually solve the problem.
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The first thing to ask is - how does anyone know that the clone doesn't have magic?
 
Goldfish said:
Dubious from my POV. I acknowledge that it can be useful to a certain extent, but I know the playerbase and the paranoia SGI will cause, and the endless debates we're in for on how to correctly use it, how not to use it, how to safely use it, etc.

ATP is for effectively mimicking Invisibility. That's completely different from BMI. We can't always be invisible, for lots of reasons. We have to actually interact with people to get anything done that doesn't involve sneaking around unseen. The point isn't to hide, it's to be visible, either as Molly (however we need to appear, in whatever costume or style of dress, makeup, hair we need at any given time) or someone completely different, man, woman, child, Fey, Whampire. And to be able to do it without constantly blasting the Aura of Doom out to actively broadcast what we are and where we are.
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BMI is from my perspective highly circumstantially useful. To the point where I would value the single point of AP that we would save from splintered Gale more. We are known as Molly Carpenter by our Aura and our actions I don't particularly care about hiding it, and I imagine a lot of people prefer the invisibility of ATP to the hiding of BMI anyway. There's a reason I'm angling for Alchemy and Mana manipulation rather than BMI or SGI and those are because those are immediately useful in most situations whether that be multi-attack potions or chaos storms that allow us to Grant anyone we dislike massive negatives and possibly overwrite any magical facts that affects local Mana.
 
Goldfish said:
Meanwhile, BMI is immediately useful right out of the box.
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Do we want to hide? No? Then it is a worthless charm.

And given how we act, we clearly don't want to hide, so the charm is not useful to us.

Edit:

Like, I mean, I get that you like the charm and want to play in a way that uses it, but this train has gone long ago, and we don't act in a way that would benefit from it.

If I was the only one choosing, we would have gone full on *murder zoom zoom* with a little helping of *freedom let's go* and other things like it, yet I am not advocating for those, because they don't fit the way the thread is playing.
 
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Nyarky said:
Do we want to hide? No? Then it is a worthless charm.

And given how we act, we clearly don't want to hide, so the charm is not useful to us.
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I've already said my piece on this. There's no point in me trying to say it all again using slightly different wording.
 
Yog said:
Assuming limited slots is a canon limitation, it still doesn't explain why it didn't take over White Council, or how Leanansidhe was able to resist it long enough to submit to cleansng, or why Dresden isn't a WHWB's puppet in canon, etc.
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It is for this quest as DP said and in canon it has to be otherwise it really would break the setting. Not only does it have limited slots but Nemesis can't leave a host as seen in summer so it has to be even more careful. Rashid is a member of the White Council and can detect Nemesis far too risky. It would still have to make those rolls to get their bodies as well. Maybe beyond a certain level of power or willpower you either are immune or can at least resist it for awhile. The fact that she was able to resist is further proof that Nemesis couldn't break the setting.

Dresden is a Starborn and has high willpower seems a reasonable assumption that Nemesis straight up can't or would struggle greatly with it. Unless you meant something else with WHWB?

Still wouldn't stop it from getting an infodump though which was my concern.
Alratan said:
If a cloned Molly gets implants, they can have bound Cyberdevils inside whose only job is to watch out for possession attempts and trigger a suicide implant.
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Hopefully they have some really sophisticated implants for suicide. They may not though because of the no death thing.
 
DragonParadox said:
but the fact remains that 'basing rights' are a precursor of wide scale deployment and that deployment appears at least for now to be focused in the Western Hemisphere.
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We don't intend to do that right now as I understand it, but they're not wrong that the point of adding that clause was so that we could involve ourselves and potentially set up a beachhead if we need/want to.

DragonParadox said:
an announcement of intent on the part of the Library of Congress that they would not merely observe the rise of a new power, but seek advantage. In a sense it was unsurprising, if anything about this could be said to be so, it was the nature of all earthly institutions to seek to empower themselves,
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I consider this an absolute win.

The point is to reshuffle the deck and get mortals a better hand, by putting the dealer gunpoint if necessary. I don't want to let them do so in a way that harms us, but it's entirely possible to mutually benefit here.

If concern about our 'base' pushes them to make their own perfect, I'm sure the agents will find useful work to do while we're standing around menacingly saving human lives. The only way this could be better is if the Library gutted Daedalus for resources and built themselves a new agency that didn't suck to do the field work.

I actually wish we were a little more honest with that intent here*. "You remember the first time you heard a vampire use the word 'kine'? I do, and I hate it". They wouldn't believe it at first if they ever would, but at least knowing we're trying to help mortal reclaim the rights they're due as sapient beings gives them something more to work with.


On a slightly funnier note, doesn't Molly technically still have a religious requirement to go crusading if called? Probably not going to happen but the image of Catholic priests, holy knights, and a legion of pagan demonpunk cyborgs all trying to work together is pretty entertaining.

* I don't want to speak for the entire thread, but I'm assuming we're roughly in agreement on this stuff because people voted for a plan I advanced under this line of reasoning.
 
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