No, blaming Great Curse doesn't go far enough. It's the f*cking Great Curse. The most subtle, and yet overwhelmingly evil curse in the existence of Creation, a final cry for revenge from spiteful creator beings who used their last breath to drag down their creation into oblivion and eternal suffering with them. It pervaded every piece of the winning society, inflicting upon anyone and everyone with even a shred of power. Lunars were cursed. Solars were cursed. Sidereals were cursed. Dragonblooded were cursed. Everyone and everything bore the stamp of the Great Curse, with only mortals spared its direct effect. That the First Age lasted as long as it did and was as good as it was described is a testament to the heroic nature of exalted, to the best nature of humanity. You don't get to dismiss it like that.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
I do think this is important to remember, the First Age went on for a while and it was, for most of its span, an actual golden age for mortals. We are talking far better quality of life than we have today for a population of billions.
Indeed. Despite people in power being mostly veterans of universal war, products of a far less enlightened society than the one they actually made (because consider - what kind of world would Bright Shattered Ice and Desus have been born into, in the middle of the Primordial War, before establishment of human-run society? What kind of values would have been taught to them in their childhood. Imagine Romulus and Remus, raised by wolves, and then going on to build modern USA - that's the kind of accomplishment we are talking about), and suffering from Great Curse, whose power and effects essentially accumulated over time, building on themselves in secret, First Age was, on average, at least as good as the life in best and most advanced modern real life world nations. And then you also have to factor in withdrawl of Incarna due to their addiction to the Games of Divinity, something which, by itself, should have apocalyptic effects on society, the three spheres cataclysm (because exaltations were designed to function in the world before said cataclysm, and exalts who lived through the war were also from that world, so they were diminished by the cataclysm, suffering a conceptual wound and loss that they couldn't even feel, but which almost certainly affected them).
First Age was destined to fail, but a lot of it was a result of subtle enemy action and direct aftershocks of universal war. Not all of it, Free Will was the main factor, and exalted decisions were still theirs, but they were laboring under a lot of stressors.
Which is why I think in a new world, with no curse, with new humanity, and without having to make War on Primordials, exalts have a far better chance at everlasting shining golden age.
In a way, it's good that Age of Legends fell. Because Primordials didn't curse mortals. Gods and exalts were affected, but mortals were beneath their notice. So, a couple of societal and universal resets later, it was possible for a world build mostly by mortals to exist (and yes, fae courts, etc - modern human society has been built with ferromancy, which is mortal power). So, it's not tainted in the same way. And from this untainted soil, new growth can arise.
Vote closed, lets see what you can get out of this thing.
Most frequently can be misleading. Let's say you have 5 possible outcomes. This are their probabilities:
A - 22%
B - 21%
C - 20%
D - 19%
E - 18%
The outcome A is the most frequent. However, it's not correct to say that "the outcomes all mostly settle on A". In ExvsWoD Whispers is an optional background with mechanical benefits - once per night you get to use your whisper score instead of any one ability when making a roll. Without it, you don't hear whispers at all.
Also, we need to consider the motivations too. Assuming they don't know what Neverborn are (and they wouldn't), why wouldn't some of abyssals decide to take up the titles given to them by worshipful spectres of the underworld? That's cool, if nothing else.
We are reading the intent differently. To me solars are heroes of lost ages returning to the world in its moment of greatest need. Abyssals are the deadliest weapons ever made, designed to destroy Creation itself, and carelessly released into the world as a consequence of return of Solars, their guidance system broken, and mission statement lost, the outcome of their appearance relying solely on the inherent goodness of mankind, when given a second chance at life at a terrible cost.
Essentially, the way you are reading solars (I think), I read abyssals.
I wouldnt wish that series of events on my worst enemy.
An Irish-American woman from a large Catholic family defined by family links, whose mother is still alive after her father allegedly committed suicide being Abyssaled would be genuinely miserable and a likely drag on the quest.
Even if it would be a little funny to have her shopping from Hot Topic.
Let me add a couple named characters to that list
- Ophilis Ses, snakeman Night Caste crime lord of Great Forks, expanding to Nexus
- Havesh the Vanisher, Night Caste hitman and serial killer
- Lyta, Dawn Caste, crazy malignant narcissist who either burns, or wants to burn DBs alive with golden mirrors IIRC
- Moray Darktide, Dawn Caste Solar servant of the deathlord Boddhisattva Anointed in Dark Waters
- Scarlet Whisper, sworn lieutenant of the mind-controlling tyrant Prefect of Paragon
- Huyla, part-Lintha Night Caste vigilante, who is now resolved to wipe out all nonhumans in Nexus after a beastman (Ophilis Ses, above) killed her lover
And thats without coming around to take a closer look at the rest of these people you mentioned.
Yurgen Kaneko was good for his people. He led the Icewalkers out of the marginal environments they lived in and raised them to prominence in the North in five short years. To everyone else he literally was Solar Genghis Khan leading his barbarian hordes to sack civilization.
Elias Tremalion is an agent of the Haslanti League, to spread its power and influence.
Not evil, but provincial interests.
Arianna's Motivation was just to restore the Solar Exalted, including herself, to their place as rulers of Creation, and in her sheer arrogance, she walked herself and her Exaltation unescorted into the arms of a Deathlord without telling anyone of her intentions, as we see in the Books of Sorcery. Dunno what happened to her afterwards.
Mirror Flag is a manipulator who believes her own lies and goes about formenting revolution and rebellion without any further thought to what happens next. She just abandons them and moves on to the next marks; you'll notice that the one constant in her stories is "she lives happily ever after."
Righteous Devil (assuming its him, because he isnt named) started a war with the returning Alchemical host.
Dace was a mercenary captain.
Enough said; I know enough about what the day to day life of premodern mercenaries had to be to live.
====
Leaving aside the Solars I mention?
Of the 17 you name, there's at least five of them(Arianna, Koneko, Elias, Mirror Flag, Righteous Devil, Dace, Jade) who I would not turn my back on, or would harbor significant reservations about. I mean, Im sympathetic towards Harmonious Jade most of all, who was essentially raised into a demon cult, but I wouldnt turn my back on her.
Then there's the Solars I mentioned, all of whom display issues with judgement or character.
Greek heroes.
With everything that means, for good and for ill.
While that is mathematically accurate?
I dont think thats a fair characterization of this statement:
The plain English phrasing does not appear to be attempting to weasel word its way around this.
Of course.
Barring the occasional episode where they'd go to war and break time itself.
This, however, is not true.
Whispers in ExWoD does not represent Oblivion or the Neverborn, it represents ghosts.
Specifically, it represents the Spectre hivemind, which are the mad, Oblivion-aspected broken ghosts that are most drawn to Abyssals. When you are using Whispers for an ability roll, you are borrowing the skills of the dead
Its not the dreams of the Neverborn, which have nothing to do with any of our backgrounds..
The lack of a Whispers background means that we have no mechanical bonus from listening to ghosts. It doesnt mean that we would not hear the dreams of the Neverborn.
Just like not having Past Lives doesnt stop you having occasional or even regular dreams of slaughter from the First Age, it just means you dont get mechanical benefits or maluses from them.
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Which source are they from? I used Core and Scroll of Exalts so far.
As I said, if you consider James Bond heroic, Elias also qualifies.
Which source is this from? I would need more information, because, you know, scenarios vary, a lot. Like, Locust Crusade could be a thing. In which case it's very heroic to make war on Alchemicals in defense of Creation.
Also, you are shifting the goalposts. The questions posited was "who do Solar Exaltations go to?" and "is there a statistically significant evidence that morality and virtue play a role in selection of exalted?". The answer, based on the evidence presented, is overwhelmingly yes. In most cases, it's not enough to be "great". You also need to be respectable at least. Joker won't become a solar by blowing up Metropolis.
My point, that I keep finding new and new evidence and backing for, is that solars are overwhelmingly selected from what those around them would call "good people". Not "morally perfect people who are good to everyone and everything", but "good" people. And that's more than enough for me to argue for releasing exaltation. In controlled fashion, to minimize the turbulence as the world adjusts, etc, etc ,etc, but still to release them.
I disagree.
As far as I can tell, the whispers is the only mechanic description for abyssals to listen to anything like dreams of Neverborn. The hivemind is connected to them, after all:
So, yeah, I posit that most of "pick up the names" comes from whisper background. As far as I can tell, that's the only way for abyssals to come in contact with the Neverborn in ExvsWoD.
Winning Vote
Arc 11 Post 65: At the Ends of the Earth
At the Ends of the Earth
12th of January 2007 A.D.
"[Where is the shadow bound]?" Harry asks after a moment, working through the most urgent concern. If the Black Court is looking for something equivalent in power to a weapon meant to stop a major Outsider incursion, but opposite in resonance you have to know. Huh, where did that word come from? It feels right, better in some ways than the light and shadow theme.
"[It fell/was drawn as far as the arc of the sky/ the horizon may part/distance them No record beyond was made/no memory kept]," comes the reply, riddles again. You are starting to dislike Harry's predecessors. If they were writing code in a language that defined the universe the least they could have done is be clear themselves.
"[Can there he light without shadow?]" comes the next, obvious question. Some help would be nice, but not if it came with some kind of ancient manifestation of Apep slipping inside a human soul.
"What if we could find the one so blessed majesty?" Usum adds his voice to your thoughts. "Surely they would recognize your greatness, in life or in death. What was that expression so common among men, if at first you don't succeed try, try again?"
The suggestion probably should be a lot more shocking than in is, as you listen to the mouth of stone offer its answers: "[Dawn's light is shines, moon's shadow's cast, threads in the Loom-That-Was, ever entwined.]"
"That sounds like a pantheon," Lydia muses aloud. "Not all the faces of the divine are ones men wish to look upon and yet they are bound by oath, by blood, by fate. Strange to think that any mortals even ones to blessed as... apologies Warden Dresden, but even as blessed as you would be able to summon down gods as one might invoke lesser demons."
"Blessed?" Harry snorts. "Trust me kid, no offense taken."
Perhaps something else had taken offense, or more likely whatever motive force had been animating it had run down from operating at the very edge of its parameters after all these many years. The stone grows still and only the companion spirit speaks again in ancient Egyptian, beseeching her to stay probably. But your friend just shakes her head, adding a few soft words of reassurance...
The spirit fades, leaving you in the company of a shaken, but unbowed Oliver Adkin. "Quite a lot has been revealed tonight and for that I thank you. I believe the expression is 'better late than never' and so it holds, even this late, on the edge of midnight."
You throw him a sharp look.
"When a storm girdles the horizon it is not hard for one to guess at the date of its arrival," he sighs. "Would that it had come when these old bones didn't creek quite so much."
At that you look away, unsure of what you can say, you can hardly commiserate with growing old, all eighteen years young and set to never age a day beyond that in body.
"What did I miss?" Tiffany can be startlingly quiet when she wants to be.
"Potential ascension of a dark god somewhere in the world if this one is brought forth, the shadow to its light, set as far as the arc of the sky may part, whatever that means."
She thinks for a moment, nods, then motions at Adkin, the message obvious. I have an idea, but I do not want to speak it aloud so you hand her Clippy. Tiffany takes the phone gingerly, no doubt sensing the spirit within and starts to type, using only two fingers. A few minutes later she hands your assistant back with the following message:
The arc of the sky is the arc of the Earth, if this thing is on Earth as far apart as they could be is the antipode of where the Ra shard fell. That's where you draw a line though the planet and mark the end. Presupposing that the Ra Shard fell in Egypt, or at the very least near its borders that would mean its shadow fell somewhere in the South Pacific. The area has some of the deepest waters on the planet and at the time it was wholly without human habitation, the Polynesians would not arrive for around six thousand years. There are worse places to lose something out of the sight of mortals and immortals alike.
Relief runs through you, though not for long, After all the Ra shard is no longer in Egypt, who is to say the other remains where it landed. Still for now there are other concerns:"And the other thing?" you ask wondering how her interview with Fischer went.
This time Lash shakes her head, her expression one that one might uncharitably call a pout: "People are very weary of strangers here, understandably so perhaps."
Adkin, who had been speaking to Lydia all the while raises his voice to speak to all of you once more: "I think that we are allies found at an unlikely time, as are all folks against such dreadful machinations. If you would have our aid in finding this servant of Apep we will give it. I have some kill at thaumaturgy and alchemy and I know of others here in Vegas who would be equally inclined to help, Alexander Harrowmont at the university is skilled in dowsing and the reading of dreams and..." he glances at Harry and begins to choose his words with utmost care. "The young lady who runs Club Xanadu might know more of the doings of the Red Court, though alas more though means of association than magic."
Do you accept Adkin's aid?
[] Yes
-[] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers
-[] One of his acolytes, less knowledgeable and skillful, but can handle themselves in a fight better
[] No, with the kind of foes you are facing you do not need mortal backup
What do you do next?
[] Rest and Recover
[] Speak to Alexander Harrowmont at the University of Las Vegas
[] Visit the Club Xanadu speak to its owner, the mysterious Silk
[] Return to the Venetian Canals and seek a meeting with the mysterious Charon
[] Enter the tunnels under the Strip and seek out the Red Court presence there
[] Speak to Big Corey about his vampire problem being dealt with and the much bigger problem in his future
[] Write in
OOC: There was are, some answers, still a lot of questions to be answered and you have two days to fix this before the gates burst open.
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Rolls
Tiffany Empathic Response... ouch, no luck
Trying the other way: Read Emotions ->Main roll... Dead End
Tiffany to walk in quietly vs Molly to notice
Tiffany uses Science... it is Super Effective
Tiffany Empathic Response... ouch, no luck
Trying the other way: Read Emotions ->Main roll... Dead End
Tiffany to walk in quietly vs Molly to notice
Tiffany uses Science... it is Super Effective
- Location
- Right Where I Am
And even at the end the Sidereal Exalted saw that there was a chance that the Solar Exalted could be made to recognize what they had become, and that measures could be taken to manage their madness.
They chose to go with the other option, but their greatest divinations still saw it as a viable possibility.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
[X] Yes Plus
-[X] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers
--[X] And as many of his acolytes as can be spared, less knowledgeable and skillful, but can handle themselves in a fight better
[X] Rest and Recover
-[X] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers
--[X] And as many of his acolytes as can be spared, less knowledgeable and skillful, but can handle themselves in a fight better
[X] Rest and Recover
- Location
- Germany
So, we could phone someone while lying in a bleach bath.
Less effective than a personal vist, but better than nothing.
Less effective than a personal vist, but better than nothing.
They show up in both 1E and 2E, but they get their most detailed writeups in 1E.
Ses, Huyla, Havesh are in Caste Book Night. Lyta and Moray Darktide are in 1E Caste Book Dawn; Lyta is also mentioned in 2E Scroll of Exalts, and pictured in a fight with Peleps Deled in the 2E Core, while Moray Darktide is also mentioned in 2E Terrestrial Direction: The West and 2E Celestial Direction: Underworld .
Scarlet Whisper gets her writeup in Caste Book Eclipse, but is mentioned in the Paragon writeup IIRC.
I wouldnt turn my back on James Bond either.
Entertaining as he is on the silver screen, IRL or from a neutral PoV he'd be a pretty scary sociopath.
Elias doesnt appear to have been portrayed as James Bond though.
I'd have to go digging to find the exact sources since Imgur purged most of its images, but they are in both Editions.
But in one he attacks mortal Autochtonians in the tunnels around or under Gem IIRC.
In another, he draws a pistol and fires on a Moonsilver Alchemical who is talking to him.
No Im not.
The evidence suggests that they go to Greek hero style people.
People capable of great things, good or bad. Not necessarily good people, or even automatically people with good judgement.
Exaltations were autonomous godkiller weapons crafted to respawn in the middle of a genocidal war.
Their eligibility settings were optimized for rather different things than modern standards.
Your prerogative.
Not every narratively significant event and characteristic is represented by a Background.
You dont need to buy the Allies background to have friends and allies.It just means that you dont get automatic mechanical benefits, and they have no plot protection. You dont need to buy Past Lives to have occasional dreams, but you dont get the automatic mechanical benefits either unless you do.
Disagree.
You dont get Whispers as a Background by default, you actually have to pay for it with hard XP. Dont pay for it, you dont get the mechanical benefits. If your argument was valid, an Abyssal would be able to duck most of the consequences of fucking with the Neverborn by simply not buying the Background.
Given as the name thing is one of the first things that happens with Abyssals, evidence suggests that no, the Neverborn connection doesnt come through the Spectre hivemind.
Your approach describes too much power to the never-born and agency to the neverborn just like someone who believes that the infernals are actually Bound by the yozi. They're dead they have exactly as much power over any exalt as any exalt is willing to give them. Also if you never go into the shadowlands I'm really actually confused on how the never born could actually speak to you without The Whispers background.
All Exaltations have some memory of what came before, even if you do not choose past lives, it is possible the names come from there.
Show me one piece of textual evidence where abyssals are somehow in communication with Neverborn beyond Whispers background.
No, that doesn't follow. The name thing comes from this:
After they exalt, and as a part of a drawn-out exaltation process, Abyssals get dragged into an underworld, and have a shard of oblivion (not Neverborn) stuck into their souls, replacing the part that represents their name. That's where they lose their names. I think it's actually theoretically possible to avoid this if, say, a freshly exalted abyssal was found by a sympathetic circle, and a knight of the cross. We'd be in completely uncharted waters, but the name thing is separate from the exaltation thing.
And what consequences of fucking with Neverborn? There are three rules, and three rules only that abyssals labor under:
An abyssal is perfectly capable of, for example, trying to kill a neverborn, or protecting humanity. The given consequences of the curse are, to be frank, quite mild.
EDIT:
Are exalts capable of doing evil shit? Of course yes. If given a choice and sufficient information, would they choose evil over good? My answer is of course not. If that's your definition of greek hero, and you think it's enough of a reason to avoid exalts, presenting some unrealistic standard of "always only chooses good for everyone, never does bad stuff", then fie on you. "Perfect is the enemy of the good enough" is a saying for a reason. And exalts, while not perfect, can be more than good enough.
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- Location
- Germany
I mean, stopping the Exaltation halfway through sounds like it would just kill the already dying person while the Exaltation moves on.
Or at best leave them healed through that first burst of energy, but still not Exalted.
But in more practical terms the Exaltation shouldn't be interruptable at all, like our Chrysalis was unbreakable and also twisted time to avoid interference.
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so...to come back to the reinforcements issue, the acolytes are really squishy but know the area, so we could use them as pathfinders. get some teams of experts from the worldsoul with a local each. send them out to:
-find and kidnap the living tripwires for deprogramming
-subborn local information structure
( less damage to masquerade,early warning of open activity, ways to get innocents out of the way for actions?)
-reinforce vulnerable allies( the professor,the temples,later appearing allies)
- prepare for distractions at variou points( if we prepare them now we can maybe use some of them remotely.
i would also like for the mc to spend some time regaining essence
-find and kidnap the living tripwires for deprogramming
-subborn local information structure
( less damage to masquerade,early warning of open activity, ways to get innocents out of the way for actions?)
-reinforce vulnerable allies( the professor,the temples,later appearing allies)
- prepare for distractions at variou points( if we prepare them now we can maybe use some of them remotely.
i would also like for the mc to spend some time regaining essence
That's the thing, I am unsure about how intrinsic the trip to the underworld is to an abyssal exalt. It is, in principle, a solar exaltation of flipped polarity. Those are essentially instantaneous. The person was dying, and were heroic enough to merit a solar exaltation. They make the bargain, and they aren't dying anymore. Several days go by - they aren't dying in the process, and the power accumulates, resulting in the manifestation of spirits that drag them into underworld. As far as I know, they are already fully exalted at that time. Then the shard of Oblivion is drawn into their soul. It might be stabilizing the exaltation somehow? Like the moonsilver tattoos of lunars? We don't know enough. Probably shouldn't experiment, but I wouldn't discard the possiblity that the first step on the most effective path of reversing of an abyssal into a solar would be to prevent them from having their name taken away in the first place.
I am going to make a couple suggestions
1)Take Oliver Adkin, as long as he lets Lash tune him up.
He's old, but if her healing helped Mister, her healing will help put him in the best shape of his life for his age, and Flesh 3 will allow her to do it for free. Also, we have Mutt to help carry the old guy if Molly is too busy to do it.
2)Book a hotel suite, give everyone time to get breakfast, a shower and catch their breaths.
This may be the last time in a while, so make it count.
HMP the security network, just in case Sandra finds out where we are and sends someone with C4 to the door.
I will suggest the Luxor, because Egyptian-themed hotel.
Drop one or two thousand dollars on connecting suites, if we're bringing Adkins along, thats a party of 6, and bathroom space will be at a premium.
3)Soak in a bleach bath, and start calling people on the phone, while connected to speakerphone in the living room.
Empathy and Etiquette Excellencies work over the phone just fine, and we have 9 hours to heal.
In 9 hours Molly can talk to a lot of people.
First call Big Corey. Mutt will have his number since he used to work for him, or Arlene will.
He's a Skavis, he will know who the fuck Molly is when we introduce ourselves over the phone, because we personally shanked Duke Skavis in the face.
And he has the connections to know that when Molly is credible when she talks about Outsider shit.
Then call Alexander Harrowmont, on the phone as well.
He's a bibliomancer at the University of Las Vegas; giving him time to prepare and hit the books will probably help, and Molly or Harry can do it. Harry has the additional authority of being White Council, but he isnt as good at diplomacy as Molly.
And make an appointment to see Silk in the afternoon.
4)Find something for the cyberdevils to do.
Hack the police computers, probably, and look for signs of funny shit since July.
And have them run Sandra's picture through the local police database.
5)CALL HOME.
And reassure them you're fine, because they'll be awake by then, and probably see the greenfire on the news.
====
Basically:
VOTE
[X]Plan Phone Tag
-[X] Rest and Recover: 12 hours
--[X] Pick up Mutt from the Gardens and talk to Arlene that we kept our word about the Blampire
--[X] Book connecting hotel suites with bathtubs where everyone else can get some food, shower and rest while you soak and recover Essence. Might be the last time in a while. Bring some bleach.
-[X]HMP the security cameras/hotel computers for early warning
-[X]Phonecall: Call people while in the bleach bathtub, with BSM, ATB, Occult, Etiquette and Empathy Excellencies running and speakerphone conference call with the rest of the party in the living room
--[X] Speak to Big Corey about his vampire problem being dealt with and the much bigger problem in his future
--[X] Speak to Alexander Harrowmont at the University of Las Vegas
--[X] Make an afternoon appointment with Silk
-[X] Cyberdevils: Hack police databases
-[X] Yes
--[X] Adkin himself, he may be old and frail, but he is also the most knowledgeable of the Pallbearers
--[X] Insist he gets a medical tuneup from Lash if he's coming, just in case
--[X] And a disguise
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
If we can mobilize the rest of Adkin's people to act as temporary minions, why shouldn't we?
[X] uju32
We cant afford to give them further information because anyone with even basic magic or vampire abilities will make them sing like canaries. They have no particularly valuable special abilities, nor do they know Las Vegas; they're as far as I can tell, mostly new in this city along with Adkins.
They'll basically be baby seals in the same water as sharks, and will suffer the same fate.
If we just needed bodies, we could ask Arlene, who actually runs a paramilitary force in this city that knows the land.
Or we could hop out to Sanctuary and come back with a couple squads of intelligence operatives or military cyborgs, and risk them running into law enforcement chasing whatever the explosion on the Strip was.
It doesnt appear to be a situation where we need bodies. Yet.
So no need to take the risk.
Now, as promised, let's talk about "hero in the Greek sense of the word". I f*cking hate this phrase and how it's used.
First of all, let's talk about the phrase itself. I wasn't able to trace its origin conclusively, and my methodology wasn't very scientific. I used google and duckduckgo, searching either for the exact phrase "hero in the greek sense of the word" as a more restrictive seach pattern, or for the search prompt {hero "in the greek sense of the word"} as a more lax term. I know that the phrase was in use earlier, as at least one search result links me to the book "the human condition" written by Hannah Arendt, who died in 1968. Still, it's useful to investigate how the phrase use in the wider public discourse changed over time.
The earliest mention of the exact phrase "hero in the greek sense of the word" online that google gives me is an obituary for a firefighter published in 2007. The phrase is used as follows:
A more relaxed search term gives earlier mentions, with the earliest being indexed on 31st of January 2000 (I think google doesn't search for articles earlier than 2000). It's a Lecture on Shakespeare's Transformation of Medieval Tragedy and an Introduction to Richard III. The text says the following:
The next (by chronological order) link is a 2012 pdf file that's probably piracy, unless it's public domain - it's a work by Hannah Arendt, "The Human Condition". It heavily discusses grecian philosphical thought. In it, there's no direct use of the phrase, but it does discuss the term hero in the context of Greek culture. I am fairly sure that later works, including philological ones, have obsoleted this work and rendered findings in it wrong, but it's interesting to present for historical context, and to try and trace where the term we are discussing might have come from in modern language. Full disclosure, I haven't read the whole book, and am using its own index to cheat.
Then we have a quora post from 2015, which refers to Wonder Woman as "a hero in a greek sense of the word", indicating the distinction as being willing to kill:
To summarize, it seems that "hero is a greek sense of the word" is a neologism, and not a very common one, with no established universally-agreed meaning. In many early cases, the phrases centers around someone who is willing to overcome - themselves and their flaws, or the opposition of the world.
Now, let's talk etimology of the word. Here, I will have to rely on wikipedia. It provides links to a number of sources, so I am relatively confident in doing so. I'll post certain parts of the article here for reference:
From these brief forays into internet history and etimology, I believe that "hero in the greek sense of the word" as it has been used in this thread at least, is not historically accurate, and is a neologism. Classical greek heroes are, in fact, heroes. Not perfect, but overcoming their base nature and flaws, and doing great and positive deeds.
First of all, let's talk about the phrase itself. I wasn't able to trace its origin conclusively, and my methodology wasn't very scientific. I used google and duckduckgo, searching either for the exact phrase "hero in the greek sense of the word" as a more restrictive seach pattern, or for the search prompt {hero "in the greek sense of the word"} as a more lax term. I know that the phrase was in use earlier, as at least one search result links me to the book "the human condition" written by Hannah Arendt, who died in 1968. Still, it's useful to investigate how the phrase use in the wider public discourse changed over time.
The earliest mention of the exact phrase "hero in the greek sense of the word" online that google gives me is an obituary for a firefighter published in 2007. The phrase is used as follows:
Note the difference from what how the phrase has been used in the discourse of this thread. The second use of the phrase online that I can find leads me to... drumroll please... Spacebattles! In 2012 in To Be a Hero (A Legend of Zelda self insert) fanfic @Sir Bill used the phrase in the opening statement of his story:
The exact meaning of the phrase is not given, but they are still active, so, maybe we'll get to learn what they meant by it and how the meaning has evolved since then.
A more relaxed search term gives earlier mentions, with the earliest being indexed on 31st of January 2000 (I think google doesn't search for articles earlier than 2000). It's a Lecture on Shakespeare's Transformation of Medieval Tragedy and an Introduction to Richard III. The text says the following:
As can be seen, the "in the greek meaning of the word" seems to refer to figures "willing to maintain [their] own individual sense of what is right in the face of whatever life offers". There's no empathis on greatness, but there is empathsi on moral integrity and being uncompromising in the face of harsh opposition. In this sense, Captain America giving "no, you move" speech is a "hero in the greek sense of the word".
The next (by chronological order) link is a 2012 pdf file that's probably piracy, unless it's public domain - it's a work by Hannah Arendt, "The Human Condition". It heavily discusses grecian philosphical thought. In it, there's no direct use of the phrase, but it does discuss the term hero in the context of Greek culture. I am fairly sure that later works, including philological ones, have obsoleted this work and rendered findings in it wrong, but it's interesting to present for historical context, and to try and trace where the term we are discussing might have come from in modern language. Full disclosure, I haven't read the whole book, and am using its own index to cheat.
This part of the work discusses tradition of fiction, and so uses the word "hero" in the context of "character". The meaning the author ascribes to the word hero is, essentially "the one courageous enough to act".
Then we have a quora post from 2015, which refers to Wonder Woman as "a hero in a greek sense of the word", indicating the distinction as being willing to kill:
Etc.
To summarize, it seems that "hero is a greek sense of the word" is a neologism, and not a very common one, with no established universally-agreed meaning. In many early cases, the phrases centers around someone who is willing to overcome - themselves and their flaws, or the opposition of the world.
Now, let's talk etimology of the word. Here, I will have to rely on wikipedia. It provides links to a number of sources, so I am relatively confident in doing so. I'll post certain parts of the article here for reference:
As an example, Hector is given:
As can be seen, in very literal "greek sense of the word", a hero is a protector, a great fighter. But not every great fighter is a hero, because the hero protects. This, I think, as a layman, likely links to Greek Hero Cults, which were an evolution of ancestor worship brought on by the development of large cities. In this sense of the word, heroes could be thought of as cultural evolution of honored ancestors - humans from the past worthy of veneration and taking the place between mundane (honored ancestors) and cosmological (gods), protecting the former from the latter.
From these brief forays into internet history and etimology, I believe that "hero in the greek sense of the word" as it has been used in this thread at least, is not historically accurate, and is a neologism. Classical greek heroes are, in fact, heroes. Not perfect, but overcoming their base nature and flaws, and doing great and positive deeds.