Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The logic of this vote is that Harry can make an extended roll to increase the amount of successes he gets on spells if that isn't the case will change @DragonParadox.

Harry can indeed make extended rolls, however since those do not come up that often in normal plat thanks to the bullshit that are Exalted dice pools I will remind you guys that every composite roll in an extended roll risks a botch.
 
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But he does know he could kill Justin, after all he did and and he also knows that he can do it again, self confidence regardless of if you think part of the self is some odd fey spell is the same.

I think he still thinks that Lea in some way empowered him to enable him to do so. The lesson he took was that he did need her help to beat him, not that he could do it on his own.
 
Those are the bare minimum she got him a teacher for his abilities. She kept him from getting murdered. Didn't steal his mom's stuff. She helped him handle some errands while he's away. Jesus Christ how low is the bar in your mind of worse Godparent while still keeping the title. That's not even counting the deliberate cruelty and general manipulation towards increasing his debt towards the winter fey.

Edit: This is before any discourse on the difficulty of those Feats the difficulty of them doesn't matter those are still just the bare minimum she could do by any standard of godparents.
She's Mab's handmaiden, a Fae whose day job involves deputising for Mab at the Outer Gates of Creation
And she still made the time and effort to be present for most of his childhood, while managing to keep it secret.

Furthermore, in spite of being Fae, she made the determination that he was better raised among humans, and took the effort to ensure that he was raised as such free of entanglements, instead of taking the easy route and either fostering him among Fae/Fae affiliates, which would have entangled him with Winter, or just napping him into Faerie as a child.

Take a look at the types of enemies that baby Dresden inherited.

His grandfather was the Blackstaff, and he couldnt keep those enemies assassinating his wife, Dresden's grandmother.
His mother, Maggie LeFay had the head of state of a supernatural power personally see to her assassination.
And thats before the Starborn mess came into consideration.

Nevermind when he started making his own enemies.
There were allegedly literal piles of bones representing assassins that tried to get at Dresden's apartment through the garden that his godmother planted to keep him safe.

The fact that you think keeping him alive was a basic thing is just you not actually paying attention.

PS
DuMorne was a former senior Warden AND the former apprentice of Senior Council member Simon Petrovich.
Not just "a" teacher.

EDIT
Hell, Dresden leans on this relationship; in Dead Beat, he calls Lea for information on Kemmler, and Mab shows up in her place and provides the information that Lea would have.
Do you think just anyone can call Mab's second in command and expect an answer, let alone free info?


She was certainly more than happy to rip him off though, like when she conned him into believing she gave him the power to defeat Du Mourne when she actually didn't help at all and instead extorted three favours from him for literally nothing but telling him he could do it.
The same three favours that Mab used to basically own Harry for a decade.
If she wanted to, she'd have raised him as a Fae hound.
That same "offer" she made in Grave Peril.

From where she is standing she taught him a valuable lesson about the extent of his abilities and not making open ended deals with the fey. Really that is a bargain for a mere three favors. :V
^^^
Nothing we see Lea do was gratuitous, or deliberately took advantage of him.
Its not cruelty when a mother wolf nips at her young ones, or when a raptor forces a young one out of the nest.
Its not human, but its not cruel.

Like I pointed out earlier, she could have turned him into a Faerie hound after his parents died, kept him at her home in safety and it would have fulfilled the letter of her obligations to him.
But not the spirit of letting him make his own decisions.
 
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If she wanted to, she'd have raised him as a Fae hound.
That same "offer" she made in Grave Peril.

Lea's options were limited by the risk of the Blackstaff later finding out what she'd done to his grandson and brutally murdering her for it.

What she did do was con him out of 'favours' for nothing that regularly put him in great danger and put him through great suffering.
 
Lea's options were limited by the risk of the Blackstaff later finding out what she'd done to his grandson and brutally murdering her for it. What she did do was con him out of 'favours' for nothing that regularly put him in great danger and put him through great suffering.
No they werent.

Lea is Mab's handmaiden and 2IC. Ebenezar calls Lea one of their elders in Changes.
When she hid Dresden from magical detection after his father was murdered, Ebenezar couldnt find him, and he looked.
Lea would murder him if he tried to come to conclusions with her.


She had those things for ten years before passing them off to Mab.
Both times that Mab called in those favors, in Summer Knight and Small Favor, were things he was going to get involved in anyway because they came to Chicago or involved the White Council.
 
We do not know the wording Dresden's Father used with Lea.
She might not have been able to without Dresden owing her.
If that was true, as soon as he owed her that favor at 16 she'd have been able to do so
She dangles the threat for a decade, but she doesnt push to enforce it.
The effect appeared to be to keep him out of the NeverNever until he is significantly stronger and older.

There's a fair amount of information we're still missing about what Maggie's deal with Lea was, and Dresden's whole background.
Or what Lea's intent is, as compared to what she actually says.
Fae cant lie, but they can still deceive and manipulate.
 
Thats just not true.

She is the prime candidate for responsibility for hiding him from magical and mundane pursuit after both his parents were murdered and the enemies he inherited were hunting for him. She is also one of the candidates for his getting magical training from DuMorne after he Awakened at 10, and ensuring he ended up with Bob.

She kept an active eye on him when he was adopted as an apprentice, in between her own duties.

As an adult, she kept a guard on his Chicago home to keep any number of his enemies from opening a Way into his apartment and murdering him in his sleep. Provided him his maternal inheritance when he needed it.
After he arranged his own death, she took over keeping his apprentice alive, and providing training for her.

According to Butcher, there were around forty thousand Starborn born in the same cohort that Dresden was.
He's one of the handful that are still alive three decades plus later.
There's a reason for it.

She's Fae so there's a fair amount of blue/orange morality going on with her.
But the argument that she was a terrible godmother is just demonstrably untrue.
Are you seriously arguing that putting him up to be enslaved by an Outsider-aligned warlock, and then intervening in the last possible moment (or, rather, even later, to extract a very open agreement from Dresden, and then spending years trying to turn him into one of her hounds, is an example of good godmothering? What? She maintained her obligations in the ways most profitable to winter and requiring the least amount of effort on her part, that's just clear as day.
But he does know he could kill Justin, after all he did and and he also knows that he can do it again, self confidence regardless of if you think part of the self is some odd fey spell is the same.
Doesn't he think that he got power to do so by making a deal with Leanansidhe? The lesson of "you need to make terrible, horrible deals with cruel inhuman entities in order to have a chance of survival is..." profitable for Winter to have in regards to a starborn, but not, in general, something I would want to be taught to my child.
 
@Degorium If we fight the golems the god here will probably respond. We aren't here to fight a god we are here to grab what we came for and GTFO. We have other stuff to do in the city after this, I would rather not aggro a god anymore than we have too.

[X] uju32
 
@Degorium If we fight the golems the god here will probably respond. We aren't here to fight a god we are here to grab what we came for and GTFO. We have other stuff to do in the city after this, I would rather not aggro a god anymore than we have too.

[X] uju32
I do kind of understand that but I'm of the thought and please do reply if you think this is wrong. That this is a minor deity not Charon. Who is actively aiding and abetting an agent of Oblivion. Who might be tangentially related to the hole leading to the outside. This thought occurs because he's actively letting a black Court vampire hold a white Court vampire prisoner in his Sanctum. He's a minor deity because Charon is the stygian Boatman the most well known psychopomp in the western world his sanctum wouldn't be in a random canal in Vegas. There is no way that we are leaving here without fighting that God not if we actually want to leave with the white vampire alive.
 
Are you seriously arguing that putting him up to be enslaved by an Outsider-aligned warlock, and then intervening in the last possible moment (or, rather, even later, to extract a very open agreement from Dresden, and then spending years trying to turn him into one of her hounds, is an example of good godmothering? What? She maintained her obligations in the ways most profitable to winter and requiring the least amount of effort on her part, that's just clear as day.
No evidence to Lea et al that DuMorne was fucking with Outsiders when he took in Harry.

An example of good faerie godmothering by Winter Fae standards, specifically.
Like the QM said, its more along the lines of teaching and equipping the wolf cub how to hunt and survive a harsh world.
She was being his faerie godmother, not his human parent.

Even human parents would historically have their adolescent children hunt dangerous animals with melee weapons.
Dresden survived when well over 99% of his Starborn cohort did not live to see their third decade.
She's likely well satisfied with her results.


She maintained her obligations in the ways most profitable to winter and requiring the least amount of effort on her part, that's just clear as day.
Thats self-evidently not true.

If that was the goal, he'd have been a Faerie hound as soon as his father died until he was old enough to Awaken and then Lea would have trained him personally until he became an adult. Or she would have had some Sidhe lady groom him as soon as he entered puberty and lead him around by his dick.

He'd have been so entangled in Winter that he would have ice crystals in his hair.

The Leanansidhe kept him so safe and insulated from the hazards of the Fae Courts that Winter Lady Maeve didnt even see him until he was in his mid-20s. Maeve, whose first meeting with Harry in Summer Knight involved asking him for his firstborn.
That Mab herself only saw him at a distance via magic until he was 27.


Was it confirmed somewhere that Lea was the one who hid Harry after his father's death? I always thought McCoy was more likely for that.
Officially, word of Butcher confirmed? No.
But she's the only one who fits the picture.

She's the only one with the power and influence we know who could have pulled it off from everyone who was looking for him at the time. Both on the mundane and magical side. And we know that Summer managed a similar feat for Morgan as a favor when the entire White Council was hunting him in Turn Coat, so its in the Fae portfolio.

I dont think McCoy had the mojo to pull it off.
Nor would he have left his grandkid to be raised by the foster system.


Doesn't he think that he got power to do so by making a deal with Leanansidhe? The lesson of "you need to make terrible, horrible deals with cruel inhuman entities in order to have a chance of survival is..." profitable for Winter to have in regards to a starborn, but not, in general, something I would want to be taught to my child.
1)He didnt make "terrible, horrible deals" with Lea.


2)The lesson of "you are valuable" and "be wary of what deals you make" are critical lessons for every baby wizard to have.

If anything, the Leanansidhe didnt hammer that lesson into his head hard enough, since he sells three quarters of his own Name and almost a claim on his personal soul to a fucking information broker demon.
Yes, he did this AFTER Lea got those favors from him, under no duress, of his own free will. Like a fucking dumbass.

I assure you that Chaunzaggaroth, demon of Hell would have been a much worse taskmaster than Lea or Mab.
 
There is no way that we are leaving here without fighting that God not if we actually want to leave with the white vampire alive.
That's pure speculation. If there is the possibility of doing this cleanly it would be smart to at least try. If we need to kill this guy later we can actually plan for that and deal with them at a later date. It might not even be feasible at our current level.
 
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That's pure speculation. If there is the possibility of doing this cleanly it would be smart to at least try. If we need to kill this guy later we can actually plan for that and deal with them at a later date. It might not even be feasable at our current level.
The smart thing at least in my opinion is to not have enemies at your back when you're trying to escape or do anything really. His defenses know we are here and if he has any passive defenses that aren't those statues he knows we're here. He's letting the black vampire keep prisoners in his Sanctum. Now he may not do anything to defend the black vampire or the white vampire from us taking or beating either of them but if he's Allied in any way.
 
I do kind of understand that but I'm of the thought and please do reply if you think this is wrong. That this is a minor deity not Charon. Who is actively aiding and abetting an agent of Oblivion. Who might be tangentially related to the hole leading to the outside. This thought occurs because he's actively letting a black Court vampire hold a white Court vampire prisoner in his Sanctum. He's a minor deity because Charon is the stygian Boatman the most well known psychopomp in the western world his sanctum wouldn't be in a random canal in Vegas. There is no way that we are leaving here without fighting that God not if we actually want to leave with the white vampire alive.
1) We dont know if the Ferryman is Charon or not.
Could be the real deal, could be something powerful acting using his name.


2) There is no current evidence that Nathaniel Cobbler is an agent of Oblivion. Just that he's a Blampire.
Everything else remains speculation.


3)There is no evidence that this is a god's sanctum.
Just that its a location in the spirit worlds thats styled after the Greek mythical themes. Charon in Greek mythology had no sanctum, and owned no territory that wasnt his boat.


4) We know that spirits can make themed sanctums in the NeverNever
Agatha did it in her 19th century notChicago in Grave Peril. Evil Bob did it with his Nazi base in Ghost Story. Even powerful wizards can allegedly do it.

I would make no assumptions about who owns this place just because of the decorations.


5)We know nothing about the defenses, defenders, or location of this place.
The longer you hang around, the more time you give any defenses or defenders to respond. And if you trash the defenses, the more of an incident this becomes.


EDIT
Frankly, the fact that La Llorona can get into this place on her own cognizance suggests this is no god's sanctum, or even a private place. Just like random strangers cant just unlock the door to my house.
But thats my WAG. I have no hard evidence.
 
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The smart thing at least in my opinion is to not have enemies at your back when you're trying to escape or do anything really. His defenses know we are here and if he has any passive defenses that aren't those statues he knows we're here.
How many golems are here? Are reinforcements of some kind on the way to our current position? Running carries it's own risk but it still seems better than getting pinned down to a position in enemy territory when we have these 3 with us and are trying to break someone out. The longer we are here the worse it'll get if we have to stop to fight I'd rather it be after or while we are grabbing the guy we came for.
 
She's Mab's handmaiden, a Fae whose day job involves deputising for Mab at the Outer Gates of Creation
And she still made the time and effort to be present for most of his childhood, while managing to keep it secret.

Furthermore, in spite of being Fae, she made the determination that he was better raised among humans, and took the effort to ensure that he was raised as such free of entanglements, instead of taking the easy route and either fostering him among Fae/Fae affiliates, which would have entangled him with Winter, or just napping him into Faerie as a child.

Take a look at the types of enemies that baby Dresden inherited.

His grandfather was the Blackstaff, and he couldnt keep those enemies assassinating his wife, Dresden's grandmother.
His mother, Maggie LeFay had the head of state of a supernatural power personally see to her assassination.
And thats before the Starborn mess came into consideration.

Nevermind when he started making his own enemies.
There were allegedly literal piles of bones representing assassins that tried to get at Dresden's apartment through the garden that his godmother planted to keep him safe.

The fact that you think keeping him alive was a basic thing is just you not actually paying attention.
If dresden's father loved him at all those were definitely stipulations he was specifically guarded against happening. Something being basic and something being easy are obviously different things because they're different words. Basic being it's a simple task but it's simple to roll a boulder uphill it's simple carry a burning iron in your hands it's simple to stab yourself through the throat. The ease of such things is a different question. The difficulty of Performing the bare minimum does not make it not the bare minimum.
 
She was certainly more than happy to rip him off though, like when she conned him into believing she gave him the power to defeat Du Mourne when she actually didn't help at all and instead extorted three favours from him for literally nothing but telling him he could do it.

The same three favours that Mab used to basically own Harry for a decade.

Nothing we see Lea do was gratuitous, or deliberately took advantage of him.
Its not cruelty when a mother wolf nips at her young ones, or when a raptor forces a young one out of the nest.
Its not human, but its not cruel.
I think she did take advantage of him, but technically also provided something of value that is undersold by writing it off as simple self confidence.

DF wizards aren't the reality warping willworkers of WoD, but what they believe does impact their abilities. Dresden does a lot of ritual stuff for his slower magic that serves no purpose but to alter his mental state to make specific bits of magic easier to hold on to.

From a certain* perspective the deception itself is a source of strength in the same way say the mundane items Harry used to hold the Erlking were.

They didn't have a spec of power in them, and for another wizard they'd have been useless, but having them around was the difference between getting his face clawed off by an incarnae and deadlocking him for 6-8 hours.

I wouldn't be surprised if this sort of thing does materially impact how well a wizard performs in practice even if they don't technically breach the bounds of what they're theoretically capable of, assuming a spherical wizard in a frictionless vacuum with perfect control and knowledge.

Which I mention because it seems to me that it indicates she falls somewhere between being well meaning but inhuman and evil genie.

Given what she was paid this is bullshit, but if she'd only been out to exploit him for minimum effort it would have been way less trouble to do something like dump him in a part of faerie where time runs faster so he could gain a few centuries of experience in time to face his old master.

* That is to say, fey.

Edit:
If I was modeling it, I'd be tempted to use a more conditional version of that willpower merit @Yog found:

If merits are allowed, Lydia has to buy this:
Because I Think I Can (6pt. Merit)
When you declare you are using a point of Willpower and
roll for successes, your self-confidence may allow you to gain
the benefit of that expenditure without losing the Willpower
point. You do not lose the point of Willpower unless you fail
your roll. This also prevents you from botching. This Merit
may only be used when the difficulty of your roll is 6 or higher

This has narrative basis with max WP, and this basically gives her +1 free success on her everything. And prevents her from botching, ever. Yes, Spark of Life is great, but this is just perfect for her

Edit: error
 
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How many golems are here? Are reinforcements of some kind on the way to our current position? Running carries it's own risk but it still seems better than getting pinned down to a position in enemy territory when we have these 3 with us and are trying to break someone out. The longer we are here the worse it'll get if we have to stop to fight I'd rather it be after or while we are grabbing the guy we came for.
The first bolded is a reason to fight having three flying enemies behind you with more unknowns on the way is definitely good reason to just kill the three flying ones. It's also a reason to fight here because long hallways when you have people with ranged attacks and telekinesis are directly to your benefit. Having those three with us is really helpful because Dresden can make large powerful attacks with only time being a cost and we can make time without burning lots of essence by using mind hand manipulation.

In the end I think the benefit of running isn't so much greater than fighting should be pushed out of hand.
 
No evidence to Lea et al that DuMorne was fucking with Outsiders when he took in Harry.

An example of good faerie godmothering by Winter Fae standards, specifically.
Like the QM said, its more along the lines of teaching and equipping the wolf cub how to hunt and survive a harsh world.
She was being his faerie godmother, not his human parent.

Even human parents would historically have their adolescent children hunt dangerous animals with melee weapons.
Dresden survived when well over 99% of his Starborn cohort did not live to see their third decade.
She's likely well satisfied with her results.

Letting aside how it was liekly well within her capabilities to deliver Dresden to McCoy, or to check if DuMorne was a warlock, you are committing to your survivorship bias somewhat fiercely. We don't know how or why other starborn died, and we don't know if what Leanansidhe did helped in any way.
Thats self-evidently not true.

If that was the goal, he'd have been a Faerie hound as soon as his father died until he was old enough to Awaken and then Lea would have trained him personally until he became an adult. Or she would have had some Sidhe lady groom him as soon as he entered puberty and lead him around by his dick.

He'd have been so entangled in Winter that he would have ice crystals in his hair.

The Leanansidhe kept him so safe and insulated from the hazards of the Fae Courts that Winter Lady Maeve didnt even see him until he was in his mid-20s. Maeve, whose first meeting with Harry in Summer Knight involved asking him for his firstborn.
That Mab herself only saw him at a distance via magic until he was 27.
Unless that ran directly against the boundaries of her responsibilities. Or would have ruined him as a starborn for later use. It's also possible that Mab was already planning to use him as a Winter Knight, and so he had to remain human.
1)He didnt make "terrible, horrible deals" with Lea.


2)The lesson of "you are valuable" and "be wary of what deals you make" are critical lessons for every baby wizard to have.

If anything, the Leanansidhe didnt hammer that lesson into his head hard enough, since he sells three quarters of his own Name and almost a claim on his personal soul to a fucking information broker demon.
Yes, he did this AFTER Lea got those favors from him, under no duress, of his own free will. Like a fucking dumbass.

I assure you that Chaunzaggaroth, demon of Hell would have been a much worse taskmaster than Lea or Mab.
That just means she's a horrible teacher. And DuMorne was too, and if she arranged for Dresden to be fostered by him, that's her fault for bad selection.

I know that you will always see what Winter does in the best possible light, you have been consistent about that. I don't. As portrayed, whether intentionally or not, Leanansidhe was terrible to Dresden in her role as godmother, nearly failing both willfully and accidentally on a number of occasions.

[X] Run, you can still make this a smash and grab
 
@DragonParadox is tool-Transcending Construct meant to be a flat speed multiplier on all crafting rolls I was reading the text of the charm and
System: The Infernal can work five times faster than
normal when creating, modifying, or repairing something,or ten times faster than normal if it's something complicated and mechanical like a car or computer. Generally this Charm enhances Crafts or Technology actions, but might also apply to coding a program with Computer, creating explosives with Science, or preparinga meal. By spending 1 Essence or 1 Willpower, she can manifest whatever tools she needs for as long as she works uninterrupted on her project, as well.
The highlighted bit seems to suggest that you only pay the essence or the Willpower to make the tools but the speed stays all the time. If it doesn't or you are already adjudicating it that way I just wanted to clarification because it's not listed under inherent bonuses and if you're not judging it that way that would be why.
 
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