Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Are you seriously going to claim that giving three to five dots of training in how to pick up details from your environment to someone who doesn't understand that things they can't see still exist would definitely just slide into place without issue or significant influence with how they conceptualize the world?

You chronically ignore context and consequence when you get caught up in a cool idea. I think I've presented a reasonable mechanism of action for how something like this could cause harm and made a good case for why it isn't really useful to Amanda in the immediate term.

I don't see any arguments from you addressing the meat of my points instead of quibbling about what counts as natural or asserting that the benefits of having huge dice pools early outweigh any potential risk with no actual data on anything.

You've made a case you still haven't convinced me of anything. The case you're making about harm or in general teaching not really sticking to me. To the point where I do sincerely think you're making up the negative consequences. The ability to pick things out of your environment is inherent to having eyes and ears and considerably all of your sensory organs.
I fully believe you just don't like it and that's fine but I really prefer if you didn't infer crazy bull crap from our magic charms that are not supposed to hurt the people they are used on.

The benefits of being able to suss out the details of your environment early is the difference between a child walking at 1 year and 6 months and two functionally speaking even from the argument you gave me about fully developing the ability to tell objects apart.

It comes down to the fact me and I think @Yog as well think that there is a distinct concrete benefit for her to learn these things while Young. For Yog that is a broad base for her to build her life on later whether that be super human or magical. For me I fully believe it is the job of adults around children to teach and inculcate them to the world around them and training charms are that so you have to try and talk me out of teaching children for me to disbelieve the training charms that do not say they have a negative effect on the person they're training.
 
Are you seriously going to claim that giving three to five dots of training in how to pick up details from your environment to someone who doesn't understand that things they can't see still exist would definitely just slide into place without issue or significant influence with how they conceptualize the world?
Yes. I see no reason why better senses would result in worse / slower mental development.
I don't see any arguments from you addressing the meat of my points instead of quibbling about what counts as natural or asserting that the benefits of having huge dice pools early outweigh any potential risk with no actual data on anything.
I don't address your points because I honestly don't know how. I obviously can't present scientific papers on how magical training charms affect mental development. There are no examples in canon DrsedenVerse, or even, as far as I know, exalted lore on how this goes (and exalted lore is not exactly applicable, because these humans are different from exalted humans, and the universe itself is different). For lack of these two sources, the only thing I can appeal to are game mechanics, which don't indicate any downsides. What else could I back my position with? What kind of argument besides "I think so" can I make?

As far as I can tell, your fears are based on suppositions also not backed by canon sources, or real life scientific works. They are based on your opinion on how this or that makes sense - how alertness should affect mental development, and how dexterity should affect it. I just don't agree with you on these points. Since neither of us have anything to base our opinion on (as far as I can see), we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess.
Yeah and? You're really reaching to equivocate things that aren't the same here.

It's like the meme on brain enhancing drugs letting you be stupid faster. She's still the one running the show and being a healthier more energetic child, even unnaturally so, is about as harmless as anything we do can get. That is a whole different animal from anything you've proposed so far.
Attention span is not just about being healthy. It's one of the core characteristics of mental development. If you are scared of too high dexterity affecting mental development and socialization negatively, you should be scared of too high an ability to concentrate and maintain concentration affecting those too. In fact, even more so. How do you think a child with an attention span measured in hours would be able to socialize with children whose attention span is measured in single digit minutes?
In addition to what has already been said on this, old realm doesn't warp your brain just from knowing it. It certainly does help provide insight, but it isn't inherently eldritch.

Generations of people learned it like a normal language and it didn't do anything particularly unhealthy to them, so I don't think it's too significant a risk.
SCCP isn't Old Realm. Old Realm is a mortal version diluted of Primordial language. We are using the original source. The thing that Theion used to communicate with Autochton when designing Creation.
 
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Linguistic Relativity is by no means universally accepted.
True, but absent studies on the effects of magic on child development, what else can I use?
Your own quoted study say that this quality is situational. As in people can rapidly learn to tell the nuances and differences a native speaker of a language can if those nuances and differences are explained to them. Language differences affect how data is processed into information not how concepts are applied to data and information.
True. However, it's important to point out how the examples given are for native speakers of languages that lack certain categories (such as distinction of dark and light blue as separate colors) adapting to such distinctions existing. I would argue that learning, as a native language, primordial speech, which almost certainly includes in its structure logical mechanisms and expressions to deal with non-intuitive subjects, such as non-linear time, would have a stronger effect.
 
True. However, it's important to point out how the examples given are for native speakers of languages that lack certain categories (such as distinction of dark and light blue as separate colors) adapting to such distinctions existing. I would argue that learning, as a native language, primordial speech, which almost certainly includes in its structure logical mechanisms and expressions to deal with non-intuitive subjects, such as non-linear time, would have a stronger effect.

It's more subtle than that. The argument is that in languages that have separate words for dark blue and light blue rather than using a pair of words to describe the same thing, the difference/gradient between them is more salient, so people pay more attention to it and so are more ready to distinguish them unprompted. When prompted to pay attention to them the gap is rapidly eliminated.

It's probably not that they perceive differently, just what the baseline expectation of what is relevant to them is different because they've basically been told that by being taught two different words, marking it out as something to pay more attention to. It's not about the language itself, but the language implying a value judgement about what's important.
 
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When Stories Come to Life​
12th of January 2007 A.D.
COMMENTARY
Thats a lot of dead NPCs. And confirmation that something rather bad is going on in Las Vegas.
As if the appearance of La Llorona was not enough of a bad omen.


Sergeant Stella Andrews is, was leader of Las Vegas Special Vice Squad.
Las Vegas PD's version of Murphy, just with less official and unofficial backing and no supernatural knowledge.
Thats a big deal, big repercussion murder, as anyone who have some idea of US law enforcement will tell you.

The murdered dreamer sounds like Orpheus, who was an alchemist and surprisingly powerful illusionist
Patricia Ruiz-Borges is a student activist and UNLV grad student with zero supernatural connections.

There's a pattern here among the deaths.
Two of the dead people, Ruiz-Borges and Andrews, are mortals who believe in improving things in Las Vegas.
Idealists, and keystones of local communities. No personal supernatural connections.

LV Special Vice has a focus on human trafficking as well, so the Ishtarites should have been keeping track of them.


And Orpheus getting murdered at home, burned alive?
Is a particularly vicious way to go, and one designed to be noticed by people. Thats a pretty blatantly supernatural murder by someone.


If these relatively low-level people of significance are getting murdered, then there's a good chance that the Red Dragon is dead. That level of disruption is bad for business.
And there needs to be functioning society for Las Vegas to work.


The men in striped suits who killed Andrews sounds like classic mafia, but mafia generally know better than to go after police officers with clean hands. Could be Little Tommy Fieracelli's hit squad, but his hitters generally have a supernatural specialization, and Andrews was supposed to be clean.
 
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It's more subtle than that. The argument is that in languages that have separate words for dark blue and light blue rather than using a pair of words to describe the same thing, the difference/gradient between them is more salient, so people pay more attention to it and so are more ready to distinguish them unprompted. When prompted to pay attention to them the gap is rapidly eliminated.

It's probably not that they perceive differently, just what the baseline expectation of what is relevant to them is different because they've basically been told that by being taught two different words, marking it out as something to pay more attention to. It's not about the language itself, but the language implying a value judgement about what's important.
Yes, but in this specific fictional situation, it's more like... Ok, I think I have an analogy. Imagine, if there was a stable breeding population of blind people who live in zero gravity environment. They have their own developed language. Moreover, they have developed enough science and technology to logically determine what color is, like how we developed general relatively and can in principle describe non-linear timespace curves via mathematics.

Now, imagine if we took a child of said population, and taught them English, which has colors, and stuff like "up" and "down" as pretty core concepts. The way in which the child would think and conceptualize would be different from the way their peers think and conceptualize.

Or maybe I am overreacting here.
 
You've made a case you still haven't convinced me of anything. The case you're making about harm or in general teaching not really sticking to me. To the point where I do sincerely think you're making up the negative consequences. The ability to pick things out of your environment is inherent to having eyes and ears and considerably all of your sensory organs.

Really, cause that seems like a change from this:

Those those points you bring up about object permanence they're true. To be frank I really don't want to try and train this child in pure physical stats at this point or much of anything past alertness at this point I really just want to train her mom and the Order of cauldron but we have been having this conversation about Amanda this whole time so that's the one I've been focusing on. That's why I mentioned at the end of that very post that you quoted that it's put in the cart before the horse we don't even have the charm. We haven't even talked to Rosie about it yet there's just a lot of stuff that needs to go on before this is even relevant heck Rosie still lives with her parents this is like really ahead of ourselves here. And like I said at the end of that post you believe that it's damaging to development I don't and it's really no way to adjudicate that between the two of us Dragon Paradox May weigh in but that's really pushing it we don't even have the charm yet.

Though to be honest I still keep the Viewpoint that Mr omnicide and the destroy reality crew are significant enemies that are not at all above striking a mother and a child in any sense. Hence why I was completely on board with making a lowercase G God for her birth because to be frank someone who could just call us at light speed while sacrificing themselves acting as a meat Shield so they can get distance was pretty much all I had wanted.

Which reads a lot like you running out of road on the actual discussion we're having, flipping to something else with a better justification to it, then flipping back with a weak argument that's already been punctured.

The inherent bit of sensory stuff is perception the attribute and not alertness or awareness, and appeals to nature aren't terribly good ones to make when talking about making extreme changes with magic.

Note that I'm not making these arguments about the charm in general use, or even use on people like teenagers who are also still developing.

This is specifically about extreme changes performed over a short period of time on someone who's less a blank slate than they are hard at work to grow enough to meet the requirements to be one.

To review, my argument is that:

1) Exceptionally young children are uniquely vulnerable to pretty much everything, and sudden skill ups would through a host of simple feedback loops and basic human psychology are fairly likely to have an outsized impact on their development.

2) To a certain extent any sort of early education or advantages have this sort of effect, but our ability to enhance is so significant relative to her nonexistent baseline that it can reach an unhealthy degree of influence.

3) Not every potential gift has the same risk profile, or retains it across all stages of development. The more passive the ability is in terms of mental load the less likely it is to be a problem at an early step.

4) Because of the fact that we can't change her mental stats (and that doing so would be a bad idea anyway) she can't make effective use of anything we can give her in the next months to years anyway.

5) Therefore the optimal approach is to take the same set of potential bonuses and break them into small steps executed in reverse order of impact.

Note that this equally applies to something like strength. The issue with giving her that one young is that we don't want her to suplex her mother, not that it'd mess up her brain.

This is in no way equivalent to teaching young children, despite using the same mechanism for measuring the changes, because it is so extreme and immediate.

It's sort of like suggesting that since getting places faster is nice, and using cars is a perfectly normal thing for humans to do, that we should make Amanda a rocket sled stroller.

John Stapp demonstrated a human can withstand 46 gs of acceleration, but if you'd put him in that test vehicle the month he was born you'd probably be scraping him off the upholstery afterwards.

To extend it further, the concerns about influence in general map to questioning if we're responsible for the direction she goes or if she hits something when we turn it on, and the argument I'm hearing back to "don't worry, we put her in a booster seat by the steering wheel and she was going to learn to drive at some point anyway".

Suggesting it in any way makes her safer is like claiming her rocket sled will let her win any street race Nicodemus may challenge her to, and so on.

The metaphor breaks down when talking about what's reasonable to do instead, but I'm not suggesting we do nothing. Just that we keep it to scale with what she can reasonably handle.
 
1) Exceptionally young children are uniquely vulnerable to pretty much everything, and sudden skill ups would through a host of simple feedback loops and basic human psychology are fairly likely to have an outsized impact on their development.

2) To a certain extent any sort of early education or advantages have this sort of effect, but our ability to enhance is so significant relative to her nonexistent baseline that it can reach an unhealthy degree of influence.

3) Not every potential gift has the same risk profile, or retains it across all stages of development. The more passive the ability is in terms of mental load the less likely it is to be a problem at an early step.

4) Because of the fact that we can't change her mental stats (and that doing so would be a bad idea anyway) she can't make effective use of anything we can give her in the next months to years anyway.

5) Therefore the optimal approach is to take the same set of potential bonuses and break them into small steps executed in reverse order of impact.

Note that this equally applies to something like strength. The issue with giving her that one young is that we don't want her to suplex her mother, not that it'd mess up her brain.

This is in no way equivalent to teaching young children, despite using the same mechanism for measuring the changes, because it is so extreme and immediate.

It's sort of like suggesting that since getting places faster is nice, and using cars is a perfectly normal thing for humans to do, that we should make Amanda a rocket sled stroller.

John Stapp demonstrated a human can withstand 46 gs of acceleration, but if you'd put him in that test vehicle the month he was born you'd probably be scraping him off the upholstery afterwards.

To extend it further, the concerns about influence in general map to questioning if we're responsible for the direction she goes or if she hits something when we turn it on, and the argument I'm hearing back to "don't worry, we put her in a booster seat by the steering wheel and she was going to learn to drive at some point anyway".

Suggesting it in any way makes her safer is like claiming her rocket sled will let her win any street race Nicodemus may challenge her to, and so on.

The metaphor breaks down when talking about what's reasonable to do instead, but I'm not suggesting we do nothing. Just that we keep it to scale with what she can reasonably handle.
You argument breaks down completely at point 3, and even point 1 is arguable. These are common sense arguments, but they aren't actually supported by evidence. The same common sense tells me that male masturbation leads to blindness, and race mixing is obviously a danger to healthy population reproduction (I apologize if the latter example is offensive, I obviously do not support race segregation, if that needs to be stated). As far as I know, no study exists that demonstrates any downsides of early child development. If you can provide some, that would be great (I full expect you to be able to find some study that says so, so I'll specify immediately - early childhood development being problematic is not a commonly accepted scientific consensus, as far as I am aware). The dangers you are taking as existing are not proven to exist.

But, taking them as real for the sake of argument, point 3 is, at best, arguable, and, in a less charitable interpretation, completely out of the blue. First of all, you have to invent the term "passive in term of mental load" - what does this mean, in terms of neural development? What is more "passive" - motor skills (dexterity and melee) language skills (SCCP), long term declarative memory (Occult), attention to detail (alertness)? Why?

And what is, unhealthy level of influence? As far as I am aware (and, again, please correct me if I am wrong) getting your child to start specific sports early doesn't result in them processing the world through the prism of said sports. Yes, this is not the same as magically downloading peak human knowledge of the sword into a toddler. But we don't know what this would result in. Cannot know as players right now, because there are no real-life analogies, safe maybe for extreme cases of child prodigies, like Kim Ung-yong (assuming information about him is correct), who appears to be well-adjusted, from what I understand. And Molly cannot make in IC roll (i.e. we cannot ask for a ruling on risk profiles) until she gets the training charm (and then it would be a combination of a training charm and exalted crafting charm, as we can, effectively, make humans via simulacrums, so we should know how they work).

So no, at the moment, I reject most of your argument as completely unfounded. We will have to wait until we get the training charm and do the required rolls IC to revisit this discussion, because right now it's pointless.

As to strength, well, there are real life examples of mutations granting effectively super strength, and, as far as I know, no lifestyle detriments have been reported.
 
Really, cause that seems like a change from this:



Which reads a lot like you running out of road on the actual discussion we're having, flipping to something else with a better justification to it, then flipping back with a weak argument that's already been punctured.

The inherent bit of sensory stuff is perception the attribute and not alertness or awareness, and appeals to nature aren't terribly good ones to make when talking about making extreme changes with magic.

Note that I'm not making these arguments about the charm in general use, or even use on people like teenagers who are also still developing.

This is specifically about extreme changes performed over a short period of time on someone who's less a blank slate than they are hard at work to grow enough to meet the requirements to be one.

To review, my argument is that:

1) Exceptionally young children are uniquely vulnerable to pretty much everything, and sudden skill ups would through a host of simple feedback loops and basic human psychology are fairly likely to have an outsized impact on their development.

2) To a certain extent any sort of early education or advantages have this sort of effect, but our ability to enhance is so significant relative to her nonexistent baseline that it can reach an unhealthy degree of influence.

3) Not every potential gift has the same risk profile, or retains it across all stages of development. The more passive the ability is in terms of mental load the less likely it is to be a problem at an early step.

4) Because of the fact that we can't change her mental stats (and that doing so would be a bad idea anyway) she can't make effective use of anything we can give her in the next months to years anyway.

5) Therefore the optimal approach is to take the same set of potential bonuses and break them into small steps executed in reverse order of impact.

Note that this equally applies to something like strength. The issue with giving her that one young is that we don't want her to suplex her mother, not that it'd mess up her brain.

This is in no way equivalent to teaching young children, despite using the same mechanism for measuring the changes, because it is so extreme and immediate.

It's sort of like suggesting that since getting places faster is nice, and using cars is a perfectly normal thing for humans to do, that we should make Amanda a rocket sled stroller.

John Stapp demonstrated a human can withstand 46 gs of acceleration, but if you'd put him in that test vehicle the month he was born you'd probably be scraping him off the upholstery afterwards.

To extend it further, the concerns about influence in general map to questioning if we're responsible for the direction she goes or if she hits something when we turn it on, and the argument I'm hearing back to "don't worry, we put her in a booster seat by the steering wheel and she was going to learn to drive at some point anyway".

Suggesting it in any way makes her safer is like claiming her rocket sled will let her win any street race Nicodemus may challenge her to, and so on.

The metaphor breaks down when talking about what's reasonable to do instead, but I'm not suggesting we do nothing. Just that we keep it to scale with what she can reasonably handle.
My bad that was me letting it die. I think your arguments are horseshit dude. I acknowledge you had good points because I don't know anything about the developmental points of children. Then I was just going to let it go because we don't have the charm we don't have anything to go on yet this is a purely hypothetical conversation and then you bring me into it again.

Having good points is not the same thing as having a good argument anyone who's ever been in any setting where they needed to argue anything can tell you that. I do not believe what you were saying there's nothing I can do to prove that you were wrong there's nothing you can do to prove that you're correct so we're on an impasse leave me out of it argue your fake made up consequences all you want but leave me out of it.

I've said my peace I think it's just regular teaching enhanced with Essence that's it. So like I said in that thing that you're quoting it comes down to what Rosie wants to teach the kid. I did mean that because the role of a guardian is to teach a child and what to teach them and how. You can look back at my post on this matter I was never about teaching a baby how to fight that is not what I was doing.
 
[X] Take a chance to break Mayeda out while you can, there's no way of knowing how long his current captor will keep him alive
 
Yes. I see no reason why better senses would result in worse / slower mental development.

I don't address your points because I honestly don't know how. I obviously can't present scientific papers on how magical training charms affect mental development. There are no examples in canon DrsedenVerse, or even, as far as I know, exalted lore on how this goes (and exalted lore is not exactly applicable, because these humans are different from exalted humans, and the universe itself is different). For lack of these two sources, the only thing I can appeal to are game mechanics, which don't indicate any downsides. What else could I back my position with? What kind of argument besides "I think so" can I make?

As far as I can tell, your fears are based on suppositions also not backed by canon sources, or real life scientific works. They are based on your opinion on how this or that makes sense - how alertness should affect mental development, and how dexterity should affect it. I just don't agree with you on these points. Since neither of us have anything to base our opinion on (as far as I can see), we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess.

Attention span is not just about being healthy. It's one of the core characteristics of mental development. If you are scared of too high dexterity affecting mental development and socialization negatively, you should be scared of too high an ability to concentrate and maintain concentration affecting those too. In fact, even more so. How do you think a child with an attention span measured in hours would be able to socialize with children whose attention span is measured in single digit minutes?

SCCP isn't Old Realm. Old Realm is a mortal version diluted of Primordial language. We are using the original source. The thing that Theion used to communicate with Autochton when designing Creation.
Technically the archive may count as an in universe example to some degree.
 
Maybe just table the whole nonsense about the baby?

We have pretty important current things to talk about, like the decision to anger a god on his hometurf.
 
Technically the archive may count as an in universe example to some degree.
Ok. That's actually a very good point, yes. Thank you very much. Ivy probably does count as a good example of the worst possible outcome. She had the whole of Archive shoved into her at infancy, as I understand it. Archive probably counts as Occult 5 (at least, I would probably model it as Occult 10 or something like that), Science, Technology, Academics, and Computers 5, plus a number of geases. And even in that worst case scenario... she's not normal, but I wouldn't call her broken or anything like that.

But yes, that's probably the best possible example.
Maybe just table the whole nonsense about the baby?

We have pretty important current things to talk about, like the decision to anger a god on his hometurf.
Yeah, we probably should table this until we at least gain the training charm.

In regards to current situation, I think a stealth run might be the best option. Or, barring that, seeing how "sanctuary" translates to helping hold a prisoner - fairly sure that doesn't fall under normal guest rights.
 
Ok. That's actually a very good point, yes. Thank you very much. Ivy probably does count as a good example of the worst possible outcome. She had the whole of Archive shoved into her at infancy, as I understand it. Archive probably counts as Occult 5 (at least, I would probably model it as Occult 10 or something like that), Science, Technology, Academics, and Computers 5, plus a number of geases. And even in that worst case scenario... she's not normal, but I wouldn't call her broken or anything like that.

But yes, that's probably the best possible example.

Yeah, we probably should table this until we at least gain the training charm.

In regards to current situation, I think a stealth run might be the best option. Or, barring that, seeing how "sanctuary" translates to helping hold a prisoner - fairly sure that doesn't fall under normal guest rights.
It's definitely beyond academics 5.
 
The metaphor breaks down when talking about what's reasonable to do instead, but I'm not suggesting we do nothing. Just that we keep it to scale with what she can reasonably handle.
I've avoided most of this discussion deliberately.

That said, I remember enough developmental neuropsych that I would balk at most of the suggestions that Yog has raised for child augmentation as being over the top for any young child not conscripted into the rolls of a magic supersoldier program the likes of the Narutoverse or HALO's Spartan program.

Unless someone can justify any reason why we should be doing something like that, I am going to be firmly opposed to anything more than maybe a stamina buff or merit, and even that is doubtful.
Just staking out that position.


I find it instructive that Dresden has had his godmother, the second most powerful entity in Winter, in his life since he was born and that she didnt turn him into Achilles as a child.

And that while both Mab and Odin have given Maggie Dresden magic gifts post-Battle Grounds, neither of them appears to have fiddled with the child's biology either.
Nor did Winter Lady Molly.

In this world, I'd worry about even teaching occult languages to a child, since memetic hazards are a thing in World of Darkness, and incomprehension can be a useful defense for mortals.
Its not like they are short of other languages they can learn until they are old enough to understand warnings.

Basically, let the child be a child.
We are not obligated to replicate the worst aspects of Asian tiger parent stereotypes.


Back to the vote.
Since we already voted to ignore the Ferryman in the previous vote, might as well carry through.

Besides, if this is Charon, or at least someone playing the role, he ferries people to the lands of the dead; he doesnt rule them.
Whoever has Mayeda in custody is someone, or something else.
Sorta like when the akuma kidnapped J back in Chicago and bound him into a chair.

And Im a little curious about what the lands of the dead look like here:


VOTE
[X] Take a chance to break Mayeda out while you can, there's no way of knowing how long his current captor will keep him alive

Im curious.
Plus, its probably an interesting experience for Mutt, assuming we're bringing him with us.
Also for Harry; he has limited experience with the dead as well.
 
I find it instructive that Dresden has had his godmother, the second most powerful entity in Winter, in his life since he was born and that she didnt turn him into Achilles as a child.
Leanansidhe did as little as she could, and in as cruel and self (or, rather, Winter) serving way as possible in her duties as godmother. This is a bad example.
 
Unless you guys vote for it you are not taking the vampire bouncer, he does not really add much to the combat or sneaking potential of the crew.

Also if this is a little late, it is because I've just caught a cold and and it takes a longer to work up the energy to write.
That's what I assumed. We go with our party (Circle+Dresden).

I read solo and took it as Molly only, which would not be something I want.
 
Vote closed, lets see how this goes.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jan 5, 2024 at 7:00 AM, finished with 52 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Take a chance to break Mayeda out while you can, there's no way of knowing how long his current captor will keep him alive
    [X] Try to talk to this 'Ferryman' about his guest and his guest's prisoner
 
You argument breaks down completely at point 3, and even point 1 is arguable. These are common sense arguments, but they aren't actually supported by evidence. The same common sense tells me that male masturbation leads to blindness, and race mixing is obviously a danger to healthy population reproduction (I apologize if the latter example is offensive, I obviously do not support race segregation, if that needs to be stated). As far as I know, no study exists that demonstrates any downsides of early child development
I don't particularly appreciate my argument being put in the same level as that stuff, since it's neither as stupid nor mean spirited as they are, but I get what you're going for.

I don't agree, but @Artemis1992 has a point and another round probably won't convince anyone who hasn't already decided one way or the other.
 
I don't particularly appreciate my argument being put in the same level as that stuff, since it's neither as stupid nor mean spirited as they are, but I get what you're going for.
Apologies, I did rather go to extreme examples. Maybe "bad air results in plague" would have been better? I can edit the post, if needed. The point was that oftentimes reality is counter-intuitive, and common sense assumptions don't really hold water.
 
I've avoided most of this discussion deliberately.

That said, I remember enough developmental neuropsych that I would balk at most of the suggestions that Yog has raised for child augmentation as being over the top for any young child not conscripted into the rolls of a magic supersoldier program the likes of the Narutoverse or HALO's Spartan program.

Unless someone can justify any reason why we should be doing something like that, I am going to be firmly opposed to anything more than maybe a stamina buff or merit, and even that is doubtful.
Just staking out that position.


I find it instructive that Dresden has had his godmother, the second most powerful entity in Winter, in his life since he was born and that she didnt turn him into Achilles as a child.

And that while both Mab and Odin have given Maggie Dresden magic gifts post-Battle Grounds, neither of them appears to have fiddled with the child's biology either.
Nor did Winter Lady Molly.

In this world, I'd worry about even teaching occult languages to a child, since memetic hazards are a thing in World of Darkness, and incomprehension can be a useful defense for mortals.
Its not like they are short of other languages they can learn until they are old enough to understand warnings.

Basically, let the child be a child.
We are not obligated to replicate the worst aspects of Asian tiger parent stereotypes.
Starting from the top she's a terrible godmother doesn't really matter how you frame it. She manipulates and abuses him in every way she possibly can while still keeping her title. There is no need for him to be Achilles either. If he was the known grandson of Ebenezer and he lived in a place that had Direct access to the white king then maybe Achilles arising him would have been good but if neither of those things are true it's really not necessary.

I'm going to say this to someone who's had a military mom the worst aspects of a tiger parent is the endless expectation no matter how well you do it's not being taught how to do things. I had great grades I knew how to play the clarinet I knew how to write in cursive and other things that set me ahead of children in my area very least in my school. There is always more expectations pick up a sport do this do that. And training charm that just allows you to set the Regiment of teaching and then that's it two weeks later is extremely different and I would gladly move to stop you from calling that child abuse because that is tiger parenting is.
 
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