Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
[X] Take a chance to break Mayeda out while you can, there's no way of knowing how long his current captor will keep him alive
I think we should take this chance. For one, like stated in the option, we cannot know how long he will be kept alive, especially when his captor will realize that we are here to free him.
Angering a potentially neutral party is not optimal, but we would achieve our objective and sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
I also like the murder ghost and like the esthetic of this possible action.
I think we should take this chance. For one, like stated in the option, we cannot know how long he will be kept alive, especially when his captor will realize that we are here to free him.
Angering a potentially neutral party is not optimal, but we would achieve our objective and sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
I also like the murder ghost and like the esthetic of this possible action.
[X] Take a chance to break Mayeda out while you can, there's no way of knowing how long his current captor will keep him alive
I was asking about people raised by sychophantic pre modern courtiers that our spirits will be. People with very little concept of things like individualism and empathy. These spirits are thousands of years old, you don't let them raise a child that can't relate to modern society like lydia.
It's literally a type of ability, along with brawl and subterfuge.
Unless you're going to suggest MMA champions and stage magicians are just born knowing the best way to do their thing I don't think the idea that WoD style talents are different in a way that matters here is accurate.
Again, good in moderation doesn't mean excess is a good idea. Magically enchanted super training is clearly different and has different consequences. Don't fob this off on Rosie either, when we're the ones who'd be going to her saying it's safe.
It'd be her right to green light it, but that wouldn't magically take the consequences away if it was a bad idea.
So that our mentally fucked up preschool can go to group therapy together as adults? Sure.
Yes absolutely it's selective, that's the point.
Stamina is entirely a passive physical thing that you can't use to directly hurt others or yourself. Having high dots in it means she can do more of what she wants to do and more easily shrug off health problems. There are risks with it, but they're very minor in exchange for not needing to worry about crib death syndrome or developmental issues from physical problems.
The language is still just a language. It'd affect her development but that's a fact of life that everyone raising multilingual children is dealing with. It's more exotic than being the only kid in your class who also speaks Spanish, but it isn't that different either.
The difference with active skills is one of degree; granting them takes things to an extreme that could reasonably cause her problems in various ways we've already discussed.
These skills won't be relevant or useful for her for the better part of a couple decades anyway, so I don't see a reason to push the envelope. Bite sized energy fields provide plenty of benefits without stacking on drawbacks.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Huh, that was an unexpected outcome.
On the one hand...Surprise, asshole, it's Molly and her crew here to wreck your face and take your stuff! Bet you didn't see that coming and don't know how to deal with us.
On the other, we aren't really prepared for assaulting a possible enemy stronghold, or one belonging to a neutral entity who has had then time and resources to invest in serious defenses. We could also be making ourselves an enemy where we wouldn't otherwise have done so.
Hmm
On the one hand...Surprise, asshole, it's Molly and her crew here to wreck your face and take your stuff! Bet you didn't see that coming and don't know how to deal with us.
On the other, we aren't really prepared for assaulting a possible enemy stronghold, or one belonging to a neutral entity who has had then time and resources to invest in serious defenses. We could also be making ourselves an enemy where we wouldn't otherwise have done so.
Hmm
I'm going to be a bit pedantic here exalted versus World Darkness does not use the martial arts skill but it does exist and that would be what the MMA artist is brawl is supposed to be an instinctual knowledge of how to inflict damage using just your hands. So in a most World Of Darkness context yes you can just be born with brawl 5 now this would not make you crazy or psychopath or anything it just means that when it comes to a fight you instinctively know where the soft bits are when openings are happening how to angle yourself these are fundamental skills of fighting that you would just be instinctually gifted with.
Note that subterfuge isn't lying it is the ability to hide your intent or hide your actions it's inherently something that you hone over time but also something you just possess once you are capable of having intent that you need to hide how good instinctually you are that is questionable what it is something that you can reasonably be expected to be able to do without directly being taught.
I'm going to be honest it's really hard to try and do this in good faith when you insist on negative consequences that are literally impossible for you to know you can claim that it's developmental effects but that's not a given because training charms are magic that give XP which means they are distinctly not magically forced knowledge not shoved in or otherwise manipulated but learned. The idea that they have negative consequences that are lasting or otherwise hurtful is inherently one you have made up and really hurts the discourse on the subject. Now Dragon Paradox could chime in and say yes they do have developmental issues after they exposed to these charms but that is not for you to say. The continued insinuation with no knowledge is not helpful because you can't convince us that is the case and we can't convince you that the opposite is true.
The fact of the matter is I don't believe that training charms are fundamentally different from just teaching they are the same thing except one is more effective. So trying to tell me that there's negative effects is like trying to tell me there's negative effects to teaching someone anything which is true but that's a facet of Free Will rather than a problem with teaching people things.
Also if you don't think basic observational skills are helpful to a child I really don't know what to tell you because everyone should have alertness on some level because that is how you spot things in your environment.
Last edited:
So weirdly enough Gods and Monsters from Mage does have the answer to how mortals work in WoD, under Sleepers:
Young Child (2-8 years old)
Physically smaller and weaker than adults, young children also lack much life experience aside from the skills gained from playing and early academic learning. Their mental faculties, however, can approach an adult's capacity, and their ability to perceive things their elders miss is surprisingly high — hence, a boosted Perception and Wits, plus the Abilities: Awareness and Enigmas. Young kids also tend to have even
higher Appearance and Manipulation Attributes because most adults are hard-wired to take care of children. Being small and relatively fragile, though, they have fewer health levels than adult humans do. Those strengths and weaknesses make small kids especially vulnerable to adult power, though, and a child cannot reasonably be expected to take care of himself in an adult-oriented world even though some children manage to survive on their own anyway.
In game terms, a character in this age range has a hard limit on most Traits (a six-point maximum in Physical Traits, and no Physical Attribute higher than 2), and no character points to spend during the creation stage except for the six points gained from the Flaws Child (at the 3-point level) and Short, possibly four more from the Flaw Aging in its youthful option, plus any other Flaws allowed at the Storyteller's discretion. That character may also have a few Merits and Flaws appropriate to childhood situations: Curiosity, Family Support, Issues, Inner Strength, Naïve, Pitiable, Rival House, Ward, and so on. A child this young won't be taken seriously by adults, remains a ripe target for exploitation, and faces obstacles ranging from a small, fragile body to a lack of social power and the limitations of what he could possibly have
learned during a very short time in this life. That child could, of course, have a much older Avatar, guiding spirits, allied adults, and so forth. That said, a kid's life in the adult world might look carefree, but it never really is.
Suggested Attributes: Strength 1, Dexterity 1, Stamina 2, Charisma 1-3, Manipulation 2-5, Appearance 3-5, Perception 2-3, Intelligence 1-3, Wits 3
Suggested Abilities: Alertness 1, Athletics 1, Awareness 3, Enigmas 2
Willpower: 2
Health Levels: OK, ‒1, ‒4, Incapacitated
Image: Little kids tend to be adorable by default, though they also create one hell of a mess. Finicky adults might find young children repulsive because such kids get sticky, snotty, and overall kind of gross; other adults find children irresistible and want to take care of them whenever possible.
Roleplaying Notes: You're not a small adult — you're a child, and this very big, often-scary world seems, for better and for worse, to revolve around you.
Last edited:
Amanda's mother is Rosie. The help would be the help. Spirits that flit around picking stuff up and generally helping Rosie take care of the kid making sure they don't kill themselves or go where they're not supposed to not raising the kid. Raising the kid is functionally speaking Rosie's and our job as parent and godparent.
... Why would they be sycopantic and pre-modern? We are either designing one from scratch, or getting a high-class nanny from the Courts. In the first case, we would be designing their entire character from scratch, and in the second, the Courts are distinctly futuristic.
Talents, of which alertness is one, are intuitive traits that are trained mostly through experience. Martial arts are a bit of an exception, that is directly addressed in the text. And yes, I think you can effectively be born with dots in brawl, if you are a predator species that doesn't require learning how to hunt.
I'm sorry, but I think you are inventing problems where there aren't any. "Has different consequences" isn't "has negative side-effects".
That's wrong, though? At least partially. Stamina is, to quote:
Given the description, attention span would be under stamina at least in the early stages of development. Higher attention span = different developmental curve.
Sorry, but this is hilariously wrong. The native language is what determines how you think and perceive the world. Just as a basis, Amanda is likely to perceive colors differently than people who only speak English. It would not surprise me if she perceived and thought of about time and space differently than most humans simply because Primordial speech is likely to handle stuff like non-linear time and space inherently in its construction. It would have far, far more influence on how she thinks than dexterity, or alertness, or even occult - all those are human traits cranked up to MAX+. Primordial language is literally the language of Primordials, created and used by minds incomprehensibly more vast than a human one. The neurophysiological changes induced by learning it as a native langauge are enough to affect her soul and magical gift.
Yeah. Since we haven't accepted guest right even implicitly here as a customer of the establishment we're in the clear with the broader community if we raid the place, but Greek gods are notoriously vengeful fucks.
I'm not enthused about assaulting the home of one that's bold enough to stay in reality like Odin and old enough to demonstrate that they can actually handle it long term.
There's also the matter of what could possibly make a death god overlook a blampire. It's not completely crazy, but the bribe would have to be pretty hefty. Depending on the exact terms he could have significant material motivation to do something about it.
You can theoretically be born with a gift, but full on born with technique isn't happening with a normal human.
White wolf's sorting of abilities isn't some subtle masterpiece of trait description. See how the ability you use for writing, expression, isn't a knowledge or skill despite it being something you study and practice to improve. Same with athletics to an extent.
It would certainly change how she would interact with the occult. Given her skills and the fact that that she gained them before the language Molly is not sure if it would qualitatively make her better at occult, but it would make the way she engaged with the skill... odd. Occult is typically a mishmash skill that includes everything from making a circle of salt against ghosts and using garlic flowers against the Black Court to engaging in Ancient Sorcery, even the name means 'that which is hidden'. To someone who spoke Old Tongue as a child it would all be clearer, connected in intuitive ways, the difficult part would shift from visualizing the pattern to being able to impact it. Again, Molly has no idea if it would be easier, though it would make any use of occult such a child used very hard to copy and make sense of.
Linguistic Relativity is by no means universally accepted.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Your own quoted study say that this quality is situational. As in people can rapidly learn to tell the nuances and differences a native speaker of a language can if those nuances and differences are explained to them. Language differences affect how data is processed into information not how concepts are applied to data and information.
- Location
- Germany
We are not under any guest right.
But the Blampire probably is, and so by that law, the Ferryman would be obliged to defend him if we attack his guest in his home.
It's possible for a strong party like ours, but I don't really like the idea of fighting a minor deathgod and an old Blampire together, on the former's prepared ground.
- Location
- washington
Imma note gods that have enough fame to make the trip to earth can come to earth just fine in canon. They just can't do jack shit worth doing if they don't also cripple themselves like Odin.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Realistically, if there is a Blampire there, we're definitely going to fight it unless it flees really effectively.
While that might be true there are very few ways to incapacitate a regenerating animated corpse that is impervious to pain. Best Molly can come up with is leaving him staked and... well that is not exactly leaving him unharmed.
I was thinking more along the line of intimidating it. It might be young enough for our social dice adjusters to work.
Or doing a stealth run. Would this plan be theoretically possible: apply ATP, attract attention of the spirit, go in alone, grab the hostage, port into our kingdom, get back out?
You could try, just keep in mind that 'spend willpower -> Roll combat' is a valid strategy when facing far superior social fu.
The ATP plan might work, though much like reading someone's journal in front of them, stealing their prisoner would trigger a willpower roll on their part
Last edited:
How about expression, covering everything from fashion, to giving speeches, to creative writing? Or athletics, covering everything from juggling to basketball?
There's some element of basic inclination there but treating it as qualitatively different than say an inclination to math that helps with academics is silly.
Even if we did there being some conditions under which it's hypothetically natural doesn't change the fact that Amanda doesn't have them right now and downloading them into her head would still hit the same stuff I was talking about earlier.
Are you seriously going to claim that giving three to five dots of training in how to pick up details from your environment to someone who doesn't understand that things they can't see still exist would definitely just slide into place without issue or significant influence with how they conceptualize the world?
You chronically ignore context and consequence when you get caught up in a cool idea. I think I've presented a reasonable mechanism of action for how something like this could cause harm and made a good case for why it isn't really useful to Amanda in the immediate term.
I don't see any arguments from you addressing the meat of my points instead of quibbling about what counts as natural or asserting that the benefits of having huge dice pools early outweigh any potential risk with no actual data on anything.
Yeah and? You're really reaching to equivocate things that aren't the same here.
It's like the meme on brain enhancing drugs letting you be stupid faster. She's still the one running the show and being a healthier more energetic child, even unnaturally so, is about as harmless as anything we do can get. That is a whole different animal from anything you've proposed so far.
In addition to what has already been said on this, old realm doesn't warp your brain just from knowing it. It certainly does help provide insight, but it isn't inherently eldritch.
Generations of people learned it like a normal language and it didn't do anything particularly unhealthy to them, so I don't think it's too significant a risk.
This one is in fact doing shit, so I don't see the relevance.
- Location
- washington
Trivia and adding to the conversation mostly. Cause most gods as long as their some level of known (not known how known is needed or any actual parameters) they can access earth and enter just fine and I wanted others to know that.