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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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There are a couple of interesting things about Bao Zhong that we could possibly learn that We Mei probably doesn't know.

First, that he was one of the originally Wan Xian, personally chosen by the August Personage of Jade, not one of the replacements who passed the subsequent trials.

Second, that he apparently avoided the Curse that turned the Wan Xian into the Wan Kuei by being on campaign against the Yama Kings when it was applied. It was later that he declared a conquered Hell to be his own.

The interesting thing here is that he wouldn't be an ascended arhat. Unlike the Devil Tigers who transcended their cursed state and went on to serve Heaven in the Hells, he wasn't cursed in the first place.

How he gets on with those Devil Tigers would be interesting.
 
Man, how far of from the truth Wu Min got regarding the nature of the Court with this. I guess we got more info to track down possible leads for remnants of exalted lore in hell, which was on the list anyway but less blind searching is good.

But still some part of me still want to correct her on the nature of Sanctuary. Her thinking, and bringing that thought to the WC, that it is a Yomi hell thats been abandon might end up a bad thing long term.
 
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Alratan said:
There are a couple of interesting things about Bao Zhong that we could possibly learn that We Mei probably doesn't know.

First, that he was one of the originally Wan Xian, personally chosen by the August Personage of Jade, not one of the replacements who passed the subsequent trials.

Second, that he apparently avoided the Curse that turned the Wan Xian into the Wan Kuei by being on campaign against the Yama Kings when it was applied. It was later that he declared a conquered Hell to be his own.

The interesting thing here is that he wouldn't be an ascended arhat. Unlike the Devil Tigers who transcended their cursed state and went on to serve Heaven in the Hells, he wasn't cursed in the first place.

How he gets on with those Devil Tigers would be interesting.
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Wu Mei did tell you he was one of the original Wan Xian who descended into hell and became a Yama King, but that is all she has.
 
She is right to give the advice, even if she is wrong about everything else. We are likely to find something at the core of the Labyrinth. Whether it's a comatose Green Sun, Autochton's core, or something else is a question.

To the more cautious around us - why can't / shouldn't we say to her (and/or Ancient Mai): "Your conclusion is wrong. I don't know what it is exactly, but mine is the power that predates Yomi hells and current iteration of the universe. Archangel Uriel confirms this, even if he is vague about what it is exactly." What is the danger to us here?

Vanguard_D said:
Man, how far of from the truth Wu Min got regarding the nature of the Court with this.
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Actually - there's one big flaw in her reasoning that she should know about. Matter in our Courts is not made of ectoplasm. Dresden took samples with him that I assume he shared with the Council. @DragonParadox could you comment on this? If I understood correctly, normally afterlives are part of the NeverNever and their matter is ectoplasm / not eartly matter. Ours, however, is as real as the world is, if not more so.
 
Yog said:
Actually - there's one big flaw in her reasoning that she should know about. Matter in our Courts is not made of ectoplasm. Dresden took samples with him that I assume he shared with the Council. @DragonParadox could you comment on this? If I understood correctly, normally afterlives are part of the NeverNever and their matter is ectoplasm / not eartly matter. Ours, however, is as real as the world is, if not more so.
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I think some pieces of Yomi Wan are made from stolen pieces of the material world. They may not follow the same rules as other parts of the Nevernever.
 
Yog said:
Actually - there's one big flaw in her reasoning that she should know about. Matter in our Courts is not made of ectoplasm. Dresden took samples with him that I assume he shared with the Council. @DragonParadox could you comment on this? If I understood correctly, normally afterlives are part of the NeverNever and their matter is ectoplasm / not eartly matter. Ours, however, is as real as the world is, if not more so.
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Yep as far as she knows all the Nevernever is made of ectoplasm, or rather it decays into that when brought into reality. This is something she knows is odd, but every other sign Wu Mei sees reads 'Yomi Wan'.
 
Yog said:
She is right to give the advice, even if she is wrong about everything else. We are likely to find something at the core of the Labyrinth. Whether it's a comatose Green Sun, Autochton's core, or something else is a question.

To the more cautious around us - why can't / shouldn't we say to her (and/or Ancient Mai): "Your conclusion is wrong. I don't know what it is exactly, but mine is the power that predates Yomi hells and current iteration of the universe. Archangel Uriel confirms this, even if he is vague about what it is exactly." What is the danger to us here?
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She even thinks that there might be remnants of a Yama King kicking about. That is such a bad take for her to take to the WC that it aint even funny. Would make long term partnership harder if they think Sanctuary is a Yomi Wan bomb waiting to happen.
 
I think we should try to change her mind on this. Even if this means disclosing some stuff. Because she's the one who's going to report back to Ancient Mai, and the one who is likely to be the "deep lore guy" of the expedition. Morgan is here to assess modern day state of the courts as possible partners. Wu Min is here to check if there's some deep metaphysical bombs under the foundation of our realm, and how dangerous we might be in light of that. Her assessment of "this is an abandoned Yomi Wan hell, there's likely a comatose Yama King sealed in the center, if left alone, the Empress might unseal it, better treat with extreme caution and suspicion" is likely to plant the seed of distrust between us.
 
Vanguard_D said:
She even thinks that there might be remnants of a Yama King kicking about. That is such a bad take for her to take to the WC that it aint even funny. Would make long term partnership harder if they think Sanctuary is a Yomi Wan bomb waiting to happen.
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We've talked about this before, and it was highly likely to happen. She's wrong, but only because we're really out of context in a way she doesn't have the experience to pick up on right away.

Our exaltation deliberately shaped this place in the manner of a Yomi Wan hell when you get to the details beyond what we designed and above the eldritch workings of the jotun body itself.

Any expert looking at it is going to see all the signs that tell them it's something familiar, but would need some very deep primordial lore or a lot of luck to know to look for the trick.

At the very least she's convinced we got the place all on our own, free of debt or hellish moral failings. That's something to start with.
 
Let's see:

[X] Disabuse Wu Min of her misunderstanding in order to prevent a seed of distrust growing between you and the council
-[X] Use the following pieces of information:
--[X] That the rules are different here as compared to hells - without mentioning that Amoracchus couldn't follow MIchael here
--[X] That the exaltation predates Yomi hells
--[X] That the Courts are inherently a part of the exaltation, not something you conquered or chanced upon
--[X] That the exaltations were made for mortals and mortals only - what Uriel told you
--[X] Your inherent understanding of your powers
-[X] Subterfuge excellency, ATB, Occult excellency, Empathy excellency
-[X] STUNT: You join Wu Min in gazing out at the city for a moment, then let your eyes shift focus to her faint reflection in the glass. You see a pensiveness on her face, for all that she hides it behind a diplomat's practiced serenity - a worry that could turn to fear, and a fear that could poison all of your efforts towards a good relationship with the White Council if unaddressed.
-[X] STUNT: You shift purposefully in your chair, drawing Wu Min's attention back to you, and meet her eyes across the library table. "I thank you for the advice in the spirit it was given, but your conclusions are wrong. These things I know, from the angels of the Lord, other forces trustful beyond reproach, and my own understanding that to others would be called Intellectus: This power of mine was made for mortal hands, and mortal hands only, in ages past, so that impossible can be made inevitable; Before I first stepped inside, this world..." and here you look out again to the city for a moment, letting Wu Min see the solemnity with which you view your duties, "...existed in-potentia only, and yet its history is no less true for it. Time as mortals know its flow not applicable to its history before I came here, even if now it is the same as on Earth; it is connected to my power, and to myself in a way more akin to how an arm is connected to the brain than how a conquered realm is connected to its conqueror; it is unlike other realms, hells included, the rules are different here."

I really, really dislike miscommunications like this that have a strong chance to harm future relationships. And this one has that potential, if White Council concludes that we are sitting on a Yama King shaped bomb.

EDIT: And now I am waiting people to tell me why all the information should be held close to our chest, and sharing it would do more harm than good.

EDIT2: changed wording, added our own understand of our powers to the mix.
 
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Yog said:
Let's see:

[X] Disabuse Wu Min of her misunderstanding in order to prevent a seed of distrust growing between you and the council
-[X] Use the following pieces of information:
--[X] That the rules are different here as compared to hells - without mentioning that Amoracchus couldn't follow MIchael here
--[X] That the exaltation predates Yomi hells
--[X] That the Courts are inherently a part of the exaltation, not something you conquered or chanced upon
--[X] That the exaltations were made for mortals and mortals only - what Uriel told you
-[X] Subterfuge excellency, ATB, Occult excellency
-[X] STUNT: "I thank you for the advice in the spirit it was given, but your conclusions are wrong. These things I know, from the angels of the Lord, and other forces trustful beyond reproach: This power of mine was made for mortal hands, and mortal hands only, in ages past, so that impossible can be made inevitable; this world is, was, always a part of my power, connected to it in a was like a hand might be connected to the brain, rather than as a territory conquered to the crown of the conqueror; it is unlike other realms, hells included, the rules are different here"

I really, really dislike miscommunications like this that have a strong chance to harm future relationships. And this one has that potential, if White Council concludes that we are sitting on a Yama King shaped bomb.

EDIT: And now I am waiting people to tell me why all the information should be held close to our chest, and sharing it would do more harm than good.
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Doesn't your phrasing contradict our earlier claim of having made the FCF? That probably needs tweaked to suggest the potential was there but the realm itself completely nonexistent until we called for it.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Doesn't your phrasing contradict our earlier claim of having made the FCF? That probably needs tweaked to suggest the potential was there but the realm itself completely nonexistent until we called for it.
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Ok, how about this (alterations in bold):
STUNT: "I thank you for the advice in the spirit it was given, but your conclusions are wrong. These things I know, from the angels of the Lord, and other forces trustful beyond reproach: This power of mine was made for mortal hands, and mortal hands only, in ages past, so that impossible can be made inevitable; this world is inherently a part of my power, having existed in-potentia, and forged the moment I first stepped inside, and yet its history true in a way that tongues of men were not meant to describe the flow of the current of time; it is unlike other realms, hells included, the rules are different here"

I welcome all suggestions and tweaks.
 
The thing is, do we know she's wrong?

How do we know IC that the Exaltation didn't latch onto and assimilate an actual ownerless Hell?
 
BronzeTongue said:
Doesn't your phrasing contradict our earlier claim of having made the FCF? That probably needs tweaked to suggest the potential was there but the realm itself completely nonexistent until we called for it.
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Changed the wording, added our own understanding of our powers to the argument list - we already disclosed it to Merlin in the initial meeting.
 
There is danger in the information I am giving out, and I recognize this fact. Here are my arguments for why this doesn't matter and/or why we should still risk it:
1) The connection between Molly and the realm could possibly give someone the idea to harm Molly through harming / cursing her realm. My counter-argument here is that in the sermon on death we provided, which was published, we gave that information out already. So, it's a danger, but the cat is essentially out of the bag on this one anyway.
2) That the kingdom is part of / connected to the exaltation - this could in principle send more people after our head in hopes of either destroying the realm by killing us, or claiming it for their own. This is a danger, yes, but even without revealing it, enemies would still be attacking us as the head of state. The added danger is relatively negligible, I feel.
3) That the rules are different here - were I to trust Wu Min a lot more, I would tell her about Amoracchus not being capable of following Michael inside. I do not trust her, or Ancient Mai, or anyone else nearly that much. That's a dangerous piece of information, even if Anduriel almost certainly is aware of this already. Which is why I am using Subterfuge excellency for this
4) That there was a manner of time paradox when the kingdom was created. in principle one could argue that this runs afoul of one of the Laws, but that would be a very hard sell for the council, I feel. This was clearly not mortal sorcery, we didn't swim against the flow of time, so much as dug a whole separate river starting from the reservoir of our exaltation and connected it to the main time stream. It could be used as justification for White Council making war against us, but if the situation deteriorated to that extent, this wouldn't matter much - they'd have many more excuses anyway.
Zoolimar said:
A young wizard with great prospects dying of a heart attack.
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She'll get a first-hand experience with the Wheel of Life and Death - the first outsider to ever do so. That's probably a great honor. And she'll get a new heart out of it.
 
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