Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Nope, you are not about to start claiming souls postmortem, let them go to where they are supposed to, even if it takes a while
I'm fairly sure we are NEVER gonna get to the point of steamrolling anyone who objects. Like ever I kinda doubt we're going to make it to primordial which is kinda the requirement for it and even if we did we'd still have shit like lucifer to contend with. But, the doylist view is the quest is over a year old, exp is gonna slow down relatively eventually, we are like a tenth of the way for the exp requirements needed for primordialhood not counting the story requiements. So unless you think dp is gonna run the quest for ten years I don't see us reaching that level. Given it'd be fun if we did. But, I think even essence 5 and appropriate load out is gonna take like 5 real years.
 
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Mind you I think the pace for exp gain has been mostly fine I just don't expect to reach primordialhood for several real years. I think the story pace is kinda where its been lagging I'm mostly good with exp gain. Given I'd like more but thats just greed talking.
 
Even if we got every charm and maxed out all attributes and skills we still wouldn't be steamrolling. As our powers increases so do our responsibilities.

In fact in most fights already the question hasn't been can we win it's can we keep casualties down and what principles do we consider important. And that's isn't really going to get much easier.
 
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Speaking of Lydia's powers growing, what source book are we using for Exigents? There's nothing obvious linked in the character sheet or other Informational threadmarks that I can see.
All her Charms are self-build or adjusted versions of Dragonblooded or Abyssal Charms.
The basic mechanics of Exigents was taken from the back of the ExWoD book (it's unlabeled there).

That being said, I don't think she is an Exigent in the regular sense, there is no Exaltation that will survive her.
She's a very strange demigod.
 
How to arrange a meeting with the Fellowship:

Hello thank for your email. I would love to answer at least most of your questions, but I don't feel comfortable discussing it over email. A face to face chat would be better. Just set up a circle at midnight in Mexico, play Nightfall (the music) well calling for Molly and offering ice cream (chocolate preferred) and I will be right with you.

With hopes of a productive meeting-
Radiant Pearl of Sorcery Pure and Impure, Exalted Mistress of Mystical Arts, Boundaries, Crossroads and Transitions, Shaper and Builder, Beloved of All
 
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offhand guys do you think we could get any cthonic deities and or spirits under our employ? Like I figure some of them still have important jobs even if not worldly ones. But, the ones that don't, the ones without much importance, the ones that can't even reach the mortal world much due to limits (some gods can't even go to the mortal world to look around unlike the ones mostly cosplaying as actors, wrestlers, etc etc), without large knowledge of them and stuff anymore. Cause I'm sure some of those rules apply less if their in our hell.

Mind you I ask this cause our hell while manned, powerful and such. Well its lacking any gods really, apparently doesn't have major spirits of any kind, and a lot of the more esoteric stuff other thousand hells have and deity realms would be nice to have in ours.
 
  1. Demigods whose parents were assholes or just hated their guts generally acted very similarly to those who were on good terms with one or more divine parent
  2. While technically true, trying to get into her head without first influencing her emotions would be a fool's errand akin to running head first into the walls of a castle with no breach
1) I dont recall any Greek demigod who was hated by their parent and made it out of childhood.
I think the person who had it bad was Heracles, and even he was simply hated by his father's wife Hera(who was not his mother btw); all the other gods, from his father to his step-sister Athena were either neutral or actively supportive.

Now perhaps you are referring to some other mythology, which I havent heard of; the Greeks had the most promiscuous pantheon, and the one whose mythology has the most stories of part-human demigods.
But neither Grecian nor Norse mythology has any demigods walking around with hostile parents I can recall.




2)If thats your ruling for this AU, no problem.
But thats not how it appears to have worked in the Dresden Files canon.

The Nightmare did not need emotional influence or mental control to bodyjack Lydia in Grave Peril; if he had it, she'd have never been able to flee to Dresden or the Church of St Mary's. It didnt need emotional influence or mental control to possess Justine in the same Grave Peril book when the Reds had her, Dresden and Susan prisoner.

Corpsetaker did not need emotional or mental influence to bushwhack Luccio and steal her body in Dead Beat.
And while he was dead, Dresden did not need permission to jump into Molly's body and possess her and cast magic through her during the firefight with the turtlenecks in Ghost Story.


Corpsetaker did need explicit permission to possess Mortimer Lindquist in Ghost Story, mind. Hence her having him kidnapped and tortured go try and get it. But he was an experienced, skilled and powerful ectomancer who was allegedly in the same tier of power as Dresden, while she was comparatively weakened.

18 is a mostly arbitrary legal line, not something based in science. Brains finish development in mid-20s. Physical development for girls ends at ~ 15-16. For boys it's an average of 17, but can be as early as 15 or as late as 20.
Like I mentioned earlier, everyone keeps growing.
Epiphyseal fusion in the skeleton can happen as early as 12 or as late as 21. Neurological growth tapers off in the mind-20s, but neuroplasticity appears to persist from the cradle to the grave.

A 25-year old does not have the maturity of someone in their forties; adulting is not just about the hardware, but the software.
But we still consider 18 years to be a reasonable minimum floor for biological and temporal maturity, as well as legal responsibility.
It used to be 21.

Unlike when she fucked up, she has her father advising her now.
Arawn? You mean the same man/god who spent the last century trying to stay out of Mab's way and to hide in the real world because even for a being of his age and knowledge, hanging out in the NeverNever while having the displeasure of Winter was a contrasurvival strategy?

Her father's response to some attempt to go questing in the NeverNever while explicitly still owing Winter is going to be scathing.

You are inventing this wholecloth.
You are apparently unfamiliar with Greek mythology.

Theseus, son of Poseidon, had three wishes from his father.

Bellorophon, son of Zeus, had Athena guide him and give him a magic bridle for saddling Pegasus. When he pissed off Zeus, his father sent a gadfly to sting his flying horse, that bucked him off in midair and he died.

Perseus, son of Zeus, literally had much of the pantheon helping out; Athena provided guidance and lent him a shield, Zeus gave him a sword and Hades' helm of darkness, Hermes literally lent him his winged sandals.

Heracles, son of Zeus, when born had his half-sister Athena dupe Hera into nursing him, and supping on divine milk is in part why he is attributed with superhuman strength.

Achilles, son of the nymph Thetis, literally had his armor forged by Hephaesthus.

Sarpedon, son of Zeus, has Zeus about to personally intervene in his death duel with Patroclus during the Trojan War before another god talks him out of it. And after he's killed Zeus sends Apollo to steal the body, hand it over to Sleep and Death and have them take it back to Lycia for burial.



The list goes on; I dont have the focus to keep going.
But there is a persistent theme that even the mightiest of demigods who walk the earth do what they do with the tacit connivance of their parents. Also a persistent theme of Zeus being an unscrupulous man-whore, but we all knew that.


COMMENTARY
Worth recalling that many, if not most ghosts arent souls of the dead.
More along the lines of psychic impressions of the person that was. Some arent really sapient, and many of them werent necessarily good people in life; Dresden counts an extraordinary number of homicidal ghosts in the Chicago area being coralled and kept quiescent by Mortimer Lindquist.

Souls generally are free to move on when whatever is holding them here is resolved, as long as they arent being actively impeded.
At least thats Dresdenverse canon.
Kindred of the East and Exalted canon is different.

How the QM intends to play this is unknown.
This sounds like a venture we should consult our people over. We might set off a crisis of nativism or overpop issues if we do this at too large a scale.
This, basically.

And I have my reservations about how we're supposed to send these ghosts to Molly's Hell and if said method is vulnerable to attack or subversion by any of our many, MANY enemies or other power-hungry opportunists out there.
This isnt something Im in any hurry to test.

Its only been what, two days?
 
COMMENTARY
Worth recalling that many, if not most ghosts arent souls of the dead.
More along the lines of psychic impressions of the person that was. Some arent really sapient, and many of them werent necessarily good people in life; Dresden counts an extraordinary number of homicidal ghosts in the Chicago area being coralled and kept quiescent by Mortimer Lindquist.

Souls generally are free to move on when whatever is holding them here is resolved, as long as they arent being actively impeded.
At least thats Dresdenverse canon.
Kindred of the East and Exalted canon is different.

How the QM intends to play this is unknown.

This, basically.

And I have my reservations about how we're supposed to send these ghosts to Molly's Hell and if said method is vulnerable to attack or subversion by any of our many, MANY enemies or other power-hungry opportunists out there.
This isnt something Im in any hurry to test.

Its only been what, two days?

While it is true that most ghosts are not souls of the dead Lydia does not care about those, she wants to see souls at peace. The problem is that for a lot of ghosts their fetters, the thing keeping them attached to the world is feeling like they died too young, or like they did not live enough (related but not identical feelings). Lydia's problem is that she does not have much to offer these ones, who are not content with the twilight existence of a ghost and yet are not inclined to move on because they feel that life has robbed them. For a necromancer this type of ghost makes an ideal tool. 'I will let you ride around in this corpse/possess this prisoner I have no occasion if you do X for me'
 
While it is true that most ghosts are not souls of the dead Lydia does not care about those, she wants to see souls at peace. The problem is that for a lot of ghosts their fetters, the thing keeping them attached to the world is feeling like they died too young, or like they did not live enough (related but not identical feelings). Lydia's problem is that she does not have much to offer these ones, who are not content with the twilight existence of a ghost and yet are not inclined to move on because they feel that life has robbed them. For a necromancer this type of ghost makes an ideal tool. 'I will let you ride around in this corpse/possess this prisoner I have no occasion if you do X for me'
Fair enough. Potential solutions depend on just how many of those there are.

If we are dealing with triple digits, they can be handled as standard immigration measures, where Molly moves them 20 at a time; maybe more at a time if they count as less to her power than a mortal. If a ghost has 0.1 or 0.01 the magical mass of a corporeal person, then she'd move multiples of 20. Or maybe Lydia would help her do so.

In larger numbers? Have Lydia learn high-tier Summoning/Warding, as we already planned, and a contract/introduction to a major Brass Court spirit/group of spirits to play psychopomp and courier/immigration officials. That already has the precedent of spirits being summoned into Sanctuary by local sorcerers. No need for sorcerous workings or anything.

Probably helped by if we have the Charm that turns a patch of Earth into a patch of our Hell, and link it to a specific spot.
Barren Waste Infliction, 4 dot charm.



Of course, once again, the issue of the fact that we chose a Rebellion in our Hell rears its ugly head.

Because if we didnt have one, we wouldnt have to worry about any of said ghosts being spies in the employ of [INSERT FACTION]
But this hell has rebels.
With predictable results when you are talking about immigration from a population thats vulnerable to subversion.
 
Like I mentioned earlier, everyone keeps growing.
Epiphyseal fusion in the skeleton can happen as early as 12 or as late as 21. Neurological growth tapers off in the mind-20s, but neuroplasticity appears to persist from the cradle to the grave.

A 25-year old does not have the maturity of someone in their forties; adulting is not just about the hardware, but the software.
But we still consider 18 years to be a reasonable minimum floor for biological and temporal maturity, as well as legal responsibility.
It used to be 21.
You are constantly shifting goalposts back and forth between USA (federal, I think) legal age of maturity and scientific maturity (where the physical maturation of the organism finishes). Pick one, will you? Because the arguments against both are different. For legal thing - USA legality has no bearing on what is going on in supernatural world. Biological argument was refuted already.

A mature for their age 16 year old is no different than a slightly less mature for their age 18 years old. "he's too young" argument really doesn't hold any water.
You are apparently unfamiliar with Greek mythology.

Theseus, son of Poseidon, had three wishes from his father.

Bellorophon, son of Zeus, had Athena guide him and give him a magic bridle for saddling Pegasus. When he pissed off Zeus, his father sent a gadfly to sting his flying horse, that bucked him off in midair and he died.

Perseus, son of Zeus, literally had much of the pantheon helping out; Athena provided guidance and lent him a shield, Zeus gave him a sword and Hades' helm of darkness, Hermes literally lent him his winged sandals.

Heracles, son of Zeus, when born had his half-sister Athena dupe Hera into nursing him, and supping on divine milk is in part why he is attributed with superhuman strength.

Achilles, son of the nymph Thetis, literally had his armor forged by Hephaesthus.

Sarpedon, son of Zeus, has Zeus about to personally intervene in his death duel with Patroclus during the Trojan War before another god talks him out of it. And after he's killed Zeus sends Apollo to steal the body, hand it over to Sleep and Death and have them take it back to Lycia for burial.



The list goes on; I dont have the focus to keep going.
But there is a persistent theme that even the mightiest of demigods who walk the earth do what they do with the tacit connivance of their parents. Also a persistent theme of Zeus being an unscrupulous man-whore, but we all knew that.
... Why are you suddenly shifting from "hero travels on a quest to obtain power" to "some of the greek demigod heroes had parental support"? This is utterly nonsensical, honestly.
 
Fair enough. Potential solutions depend on just how many of those there are.

If we are dealing with triple digits, they can be handled as standard immigration measures, where Molly moves them 20 at a time; maybe more at a time if they count as less to her power than a mortal. If a ghost has 0.1 or 0.01 the magical mass of a corporeal person, then she'd move multiples of 20. Or maybe Lydia would help her do so.

In larger numbers? Have Lydia learn high-tier Summoning/Warding, as we already planned, and a contract/introduction to a major Brass Court spirit/group of spirits to play psychopomp and courier/immigration officials. That already has the precedent of spirits being summoned into Sanctuary by local sorcerers. No need for sorcerous workings or anything.

Probably helped by if we have the Charm that turns a patch of Earth into a patch of our Hell, and link it to a specific spot.
Barren Waste Infliction, 4 dot charm.



Of course, once again, the issue of the fact that we chose a Rebellion in our Hell rears its ugly head.

Because if we didnt have one, we wouldnt have to worry about any of said ghosts being spies in the employ of [INSERT FACTION]
But this hell has rebels.
With predictable results when you are talking about immigration from a population thats vulnerable to subversion.
uju the rebellion is only in the prison and literally disdains leaving said prison there are no fucking spies. We already went over this and dp already said thats incorrect a while ago. Its part of the reason some people voted for it as this was a non issue.
 
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I'm fairly sure we are NEVER gonna get to the point of steamrolling anyone who objects. Like ever I kinda doubt we're going to make it to primordial which is kinda the requirement for it and even if we did we'd still have shit like lucifer to contend with. But, the doylist view is the quest is over a year old, exp is gonna slow down relatively eventually, we are like a tenth of the way for the exp requirements needed for primordialhood not counting the story requiements. So unless you think dp is gonna run the quest for ten years I don't see us reaching that level. Given it'd be fun if we did. But, I think even essence 5 and appropriate load out is gonna take like 5 real years.
You don't have to be so strong that you can curbstomp anyone who doesn't like what you're doing in order to prevent them from getting up in your business when you throw a monkey wrench into what passes for the cycle of the afterlife.

Just being powerful enough to be too much trouble to deal with is good enough for me. We know the White God isn't going to raise an objection, so any other beings on the table are going to be limited in their ability to act.
 
You don't have to be so strong that you can curbstomp anyone who doesn't like what you're doing in order to prevent them from getting up in your business when you throw a monkey wrench into what passes for the cycle of the afterlife.

Just being powerful enough to be too much trouble to deal with is good enough for me. We know the White God isn't going to raise an objection, so any other beings on the table are going to be limited in their ability to act.
Honestly most beings aren't gonna care that much because its basically a free market. Not no beings but there really aren't that many beings that have incentive to tell us no or will lose much if we do this.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Sep 30, 2023 at 6:06 AM, finished with 83 posts and 26 votes.
 
Arc 9 Post 37: Circle of Two
Circle of Two

25nd of November 2006 A.D.

Higher Ghosts, Hun Souls whatever you want to call them are people, lost and afraid people a lot of the time. It is not hard to see imagine how unscrupulous spirit talkers might use and abuse them, for just another hit of life, hurting the dead and the living, making the world a shittier place. Maybe you are not the ideal person to be handling this, but that perfect hero seems to be missing and Lydia thinks this is worth a shot. She is the expert on spooks.

As you nod, as much to yourself as to her your friend breathes a sigh of relief, all the tension you had thought was there from being in a strange place for the first time going out of her body with the air. "Thank you, I know that is a heavy thing to ask, especially without warning, but that what I am, a guide, hopefully a counselor of the lingering dead. It is on thing to show someone a door and another to vouch for what's beyond them."

"In time they can still move on if they should wish." Rather than explain where you got that bit of information you caution. "We have to be careful about this though on both sides."

"Sure," her agreement is instant as it is firm. "I'm not just going to drop a bunch of angry confused ghosts on you. For that matter I don't even have the means to guide them. My father used to be able to send the dead to his kingdom without fail, but I have none so send them on. Not sure how I would attune to be honest it's not like this is a spell I weave into being, more like making a song out of heartbeats."

"Well the thing that made me this," you motion to yourself. "Is apparently both a moment and a mechanism and is meant to help mortals do the impossible so..."

"Who told you that?" she must have noticed something in your tone.

So you tell her, about talking to an archangel around your mom's coffee table, about the questions he answered and those he conspicuously had not, about deals struck, planes hijacked and vampire nobles sliced in two, about prisoner debriefs and all the tens of thousands of people still enslaved for their blood. Even though you are not quite as open with your descriptions of Broken Seeker as you had been with Harry Lydia still pales by the end.

"Are you," she bites her lip as though unsure if she should say the next thing, "enamored of Warden Dresden?"

Somehow you manage not to blush at the sudden question, or her choice of words. It would be too much to expect her to ask if you are 'into him' like most girls her age would. "Yes it's.. oof this is weird," you laugh to break the tension.

"I talk about Daniel with you all the time," she points out too-reasonably.

"Yeah, but he is also my brother, someone has to tell you what you are getting into before you're in too deep," you keep up the light tone, even as a darker thought adds: or he's in too deep. At least Lydia does not seem to care about the difference in ages, not even enough to tease you the way Izzy would, oh no it's much much worse than that... Lydia is into courtly romance.

You need a distraction fast, thus you decide to go...

[] To the City of Endings, you did pledge to take her there in relation to her plan regarding taking in ghosts

[] To the City of Fountains, were among the singing waters all the arts are represented from rhetoric to architecture, calligraphy to swordsmanship, new expertness are sampled and at times new lives bloom

[] To the Wastes, under the endless storms, you can feel their power flexing far above and know it is yours to call. Why not play around with it a bit which one of the few witnesses who would not find it disconcerting

[] Write in


OOC: This was supposed to be the vote last update then Lydia made that roll and we had to talk about ghosts for a bit.
 
Honestly most beings aren't gonna care that much because its basically a free market. Not no beings but there really aren't that many beings that have incentive to tell us no or will lose much if we do this.
There are people who could get concerned though.

Most entities running their own afterlives got set to new rules by the white god that make just harvesting loose souls unusual. It basically doesn't happen at all in DF canon, and even with the fusion it's harder than that for say the Yama Kings to play that game.

A new player will attract community attention, and if the white god doesn't step in it's still possible they will out of concern for what we'll do once we've gained enough strength.

See the shen in our area as an example of a group that could react this way and make nuisance of themselves.

I think the answer for this is community engagement, because we can potentially turn a problem into an active benefit.

Tuzi is specifically a guardian of the dead even if she's not really doing her job right now, and I'd bet she's at least loosely aware of her peer group. Instead of placing the burden on Lydia and Molly alone we could start involving the locals who might otherwise oppose us.

In terms of mechanism I'm thinking something more agnostic than a working, though I do like that system and think it would make a good addition to the quest.


A prodigy would be perfect for this. They can get wild with the right restrictions, and in this case we want limits for safety reasons. Specifically I'm thinking of making Porter's engine a ghost train.

I've argued against portals before, and maintain that position, but something like this could be made to be very hard to abuse.

Set it as an attuned item that doesn't need to be used by an exalt with an AoE effect to transport its passengers to a specific location in the FCF with two additional activation requirements. Firstly that the targets must be the unquiet dead, and secondly that the 'fare' for passage is all of the consumable resources they have on them.

Nothing permanent, but the train can't move until a minimum fuel level is reached and even at that point it can't carry anyone that is holding power gathered in the living world. Porter gets to keep anything past the activation energy as payment for running it.

This would mean a minimum number of passengers before we could send it across, and that we'd need to put more effort into gaining trust from the people who'd use it, but the annoyance would be worth it.

We could get multiple agents to collect willing ghosts, bring them to one location, and send them across in groups. An enemy that wanted to abuse it as an invasion vector would have to try it with completely drained ghosts because the item wouldn't have the ability to send anything else even with total control of it.


In terms of crafting that should be around the 3 dot range due to restrictions.
 
[X] To the City of Endings, you did pledge to take her there in relation to her plan regarding taking in ghosts
 
[X] To the City of Fountains, were among the singing waters all the arts are represented from rhetoric to architecture, calligraphy to swordsmanship, new expertness are sampled and at times new lives bloom


I am tempted by endings. Very tempted. But let's divert from business for a moment.
Not sure how I would attune
Hmm, would Lydia using Awakened Eye of the Dragon on a Dragon's Nest in our kingdom work? For that matter, can Lydia learn Ancient Sorcery? Hmm, that might be an in-story evidence for her actually being an exalt.
 
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