Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Odds are good they are doing their patrolling at this hour.
Okay. We should call.
How are the Alphas supposed to help? Unless they also get to use the were-wolf rage mechanics.
Hostage extraction.
And backing up Dresden and Michael.
While they dont have regen, they do have triggerable healing.

Alphas would be slaughtered. They are not garou-statted. If you want reinforcements in the next hour, either call ghouls, call Lara and rent some whampires from her, or call Odin.
1) Hostage extraction.
And backing up Dresden and Michael.
They've done it before, in rather more dangerous scenarios.


2) Its been a while since you read the books.
Alphas kill ghouls and Fomor servitors, and cripple Whampires. They were Dresden's battlefield escort in Summer Knight through the fighting Fae Courts. They chased off Cowl in Dead Beat.

The Alphas killed the Tigress, Maeve's usual ghoul hitwoman, in Summer Knight.
Billy and George killed Maeve's handmaiden Jenny Greenteeth in Something Borrowed.

There's 12 of them as of Summer Knight. They arent frontline troops, and attempting to use them that way will get them killed.
But thats not the same thing as going they are useless.
Seriously, how do you think they've been patrolling the University in a city with Whampires and Fae?
 
1) Hostage extraction.
And backing up Dresden and Michael.
They've done it before, in rather more dangerous scenarios.
MHM + our second HMPed car handle extraction pretty well without need to endangering anyone.
Seriously, how do you think they've been patrolling the University in a city with Whampires and Fae?
An average lone whampire or low-level fae would be slaughtered by 12 normal wolves. 12 garou-lite vs 12 alphas? Alphas lose.
 
Naagloshii do eat abilities though. Whether they can eat Starborn ability (and whether Broken Seeker or the ones hiring him think he can eat said ability) is a separate question that we don't know the answer to.
Its not an ability, its an inheritance, which is received by everyone born during a given time frame.
If the Titan Ethniu keeps a human servitor around because he's Starborn, despite being neither a wizard nor anything else, its not something that can be transferred.

Do recall that every naagloshii is millenia old.
They have lived through multiple conjunctions that produced Starborn running around.
If the Starborn thing was ever transferrrable, they would have hunted down and eaten a Starborn millenia ago.
Based on the wording and circumstances, it's very, very clear that this is a magical contract of some kind, where the letter of the agreement matters, but not the spirit.
He. Is. Lying.
The fact that Shagnasty could run from a fight with Listens to Wind that, to be clear, he could have still won but was just increasingly risky makes it clear they dont do binding contracts.

Word of Jim is clear: They dont minion for anybody, and even the suggestion is considered an insult.
That includes binding magical contracts that compel them to do shit.
We don't know, and I wouldn't exclude them.
The truths he said:
1) He wants / plans to kill and eat Dresden.
2) We are a dream of elder days thinking ourselves mortal (adjacent). Not in a way Broken Seeker means, but this interpretation is almost certainly valid for what information he has access to.
1) Correction: He wants to nibble a piece of Dresden. Thats a lie.

2) Thats false, and him attempting to flatter our ego.
We are in no way a dream of elder days; we bear an ancient inheritance, but we arent it.
 
If the Titan Ethniu keeps a human servitor around because he's Starborn, despite being neither a wizard nor anything else, its not something that can be transferred.
No, that's faulty logic here. Power doesn't equal ability. If Ethniu can't take abilities from others (and doesn't have servants who can), doesn't mean this can't be done, or that the specific ability in question can't be taken.
He. Is. Lying.
The fact that Shagnasty could run from a fight with Listens to Wind that, to be clear, he could have still won but was just increasingly risky makes it clear they dont do binding contracts.

Word of Jim is clear: They dont minion for anybody, and even the suggestion is considered an insult.
That includes binding magical contracts that compel them to do shit.
You are extrapolating beyond reasonable point. Binding magical agreements are not minioning. Fae agreements either. If he's clearing up a debt or doing a favor to a major fae (clearing the debt is more likely in my opinion), then his behavior makes sense.

Him lying doesn't. We have direct Crown verification. He wants to kill and eat Dresden and he wants to avoid fighting us:
On the far wall there is a map with pins stuck all though it: red and blue and black, the first for you, the second for Harry and the third an aggregate of those you had vanquished, Katrina, the Will of Kakuri, the Walker at the manse. Foul as it it and full of malice Naagloshii does not want to fight, you are not its quarry, Harry is.
It isn't trying to lure us into a trap. It doesn't consider us a quarry. We know this. This is the truth. Lydia or Michael aren't even considerations.
 
MHM + our second HMPed car handle extraction pretty well without need to endangering anyone.
Who exactly is going to load them into this car when Molly is in a fight with the naagloshii?
What happens if the naagloshii nails the car with a fireball, disabling it?
Or one of the lesser skinwalkers takes out a tyre with a kinetic spell?

An average lone whampire or low-level fae would be slaughtered by 12 normal wolves. 12 garou-lite vs 12 alphas? Alphas lose.
In Turn Coat? Two Alphas disabled Madeline Raith while she was armed with a Desert Eagle. And Madeline was Raith royal family. The only reason they didnt kill her there was Binder showing up with an assault shotgun and putting down enough covering fire that they retreated.

And this isnt 12 garou-lite vs 12 alphas.
Its 12 garou-lite vs 12 alphas + Dresden + Michael.
 
No, that's faulty logic here. Power doesn't equal ability. If Ethniu can't take abilities from others (and doesn't have servants who can), doesn't mean this can't be done, or that the specific ability in question can't be taken.
Wizards can take magical power/ability; we see Harry do it to the Nightmare.

Ethniu controlled the Fomor nationstate; she didnt have to do it herself, she had an entire nation of minions to do it for her.
If it could be done, she could have ordered it done.
Listen's confidence among people who would normally have him killed for speaking out of turn says no, its non-transferrable.

You are extrapolating beyond reasonable point. Binding magical agreements are not minioning. Fae agreements either. If he's clearing up a debt or doing a favor to a major fae (clearing the debt is more likely in my opinion), then his behavior makes sense.

Him lying doesn't. We have direct Crown verification. He wants to kill and eat Dresden and he wants to avoid fighting us:
Part of the naagloshii beef, so to speak, appears to be in part the idea of ever being having to serve anyone.

The Word of Jim I quoted makes it clear they wouldnt put themselves in a position to have to take a magically binding contract because it would oblige them to others. They do a favor economy, not an employment economy, and favors arent magically binding contracts for anyone who isnt Fae.

Its not like they trust other people; Destro-side players will happily stab others in the back if they have the opportunity, just as much as they might attack Order-side faction members.
And naagloshii do not have a have a need to work.

It isn't trying to lure us into a trap. It doesn't consider us a quarry. We know this. This is the truth. Lydia or Michael aren't even considerations.
I went back to reread that. Full quote:
But as you ask the question eyes unfurling: What does this one's master plan, you see much more than you expected.

Alec and Izzy's faces, both sleeping, far more peacefully than anyone should with, shadow-dappled beside them in the dark, in what looks to be the back of a van. At least they are not hurt. It has the eyes of a tiger and the nose of a wolf, the ears of a desert fox and a wicked smile that only a man's face can hold

On the far wall there is a map with pins stuck all though it: red and blue and black, the first for you, the second for Harry and the third an aggregate of those you had vanquished, Katrina, the Will of Kakuri, the Walker at the manse. Foul as it it and full of malice Naagloshii does not want to fight, you are not its quarry, Harry is.

Amber eyes look down at the small silver form of a flip phone, Izzy's phone, like some strange gem in the monster's paw. Broken Seeker is waiting for a second signal to call you and offer some kind of deal once it gets your measure. The power of your crown unravels as white light unravels into colors in the place where plans end and decisions stand yet unmade.
I get the feeling we misinterpreted that OOC.
 
I get the feeling we misinterpreted that OOC.
This we have to ask. @DragonParadox is there a chance that Molly misunderstood what the crown told her, or can we be confident in in-text interpretation of naagloshii plans, i.e. the fact that it isn't planning to fight us if it can avoid doing so and doesn't consider us a quarry.
Its not like they trust other people; Destro-side players will happily stab others in the back if they have the opportunity, just as much as they might attack Order-side faction members.
And naagloshii do not have a have a need to work.
Everyone has a price. If it is here on someone's behalf, the only way his behavior makes sense if sticking to the letter, but not the spirit or the intent is still valid. That pretty much says fae or magical contract.
Wizards can take magical power/ability; we see Harry do it to the Nightmare.

Ethniu controlled the Fomor nationstate; she didnt have to do it herself, she had an entire nation of minions to do it for her.
If it could be done, she could have ordered it done.
Listen's confidence among people who would normally have him killed for speaking out of turn says no, its non-transferrable.
I maintain that you are wildly extrapolating with too little evidence.
 
A word given under duress means nothing. This is important. We are not negotiating with someone in good faith, and we never could the moment he took our friends hostage. We can, and should, break whatever word we give him the moment it's to our advantage, and it shouldn't matter to anyone who matters. In fact, making a point that the moment you try hostage tactics you can' negotiate with us, but if you approach us fairly, we'll be very serious about keeping our word, should be our policy.
Supernatural world gives no shits; you make an arrangement and you keep to it until someone else breaks it, you find a loophole, or the terms are met.

Fairness doesn't factor into it and human standards of what qualifies as a valid deal rank even lower than that.
 
Supernatural world gives no shits; you make an arrangement and you keep to it until someone else breaks it, you find a loophole, or the terms are met.

Fairness doesn't factor into it and human standards of what qualifies as a valid deal rank even lower than that.
We can and should set our own rules. Mab would hold to the word she gave under duress and exact terrible revenge centuries later. We just won't hold to said word. It's a valid tactic, as long as it's known that we do hold to our word not given under duress.

We don't have to play by these rules.
 
Betraying your given word is a bad idea; even with Skinwalkers it's basically a problem that follows you forever.

If we want to play that game we need exactingly specific terms so we can rules lawyer a valid stab point.

If we can trust this guy's word I'd almost prefer taking the deal as it stands and then killing him in transit when he tries to go home.

That or making a point of digging up his deepest secrets and selling them on the open market to farm a combination of revenge and revenue until something finally serves him a fate worse than death for us.

My ideal would be to kill the guy and send his silver dipped skull back to whoever sent him, but at the timescale of immortals screwing him real hard over the the next year until he dies in destitution is also a valid example to make.

It's probably one we want to make with someone eventually, because it demonstrates an ability to attack back in an are other than pure violence.
If the rules were good enough to prevent friends and family from being targeted I'd consider following them.
They are not.

So I don't give a damn about the rules and I'm willing to directly betray our word, we are Exalted after all, our word doesn't us in any particular way, no more than circle or threshold do.

All breaking them would do is drawing more enemies to us, to which I'd say let them come.
 
This we have to ask. @DragonParadox is there a chance that Molly misunderstood what the crown told her, or can we be confident in in-text interpretation of naagloshii plans, i.e. the fact that it isn't planning to fight us if it can avoid doing so and doesn't consider us a quarry.

As far as Molly knows you have not, it appears from the plans she has glimpsed to be trying to actively kill Harry and not you. That does not preclude Broken Seeker trying to kill you after Harry has been dealt with, either of its own volition or because of its mysterious employer, but right now it seems to be trying for Harry.

One other thing, courtesy of actually looking up this kind of being several months ago: To the question of why anyone would ask the assassin in so many words to kill and eat the target and not say 'bring me their head', it might be because the assassin is a semi-divine spirit of greed, murder and cannibalism. This is not Victor Sells frog demon, even at the scale of beings who can afford to command the likes of Broken Seeker they would not do so lightly and they may have to use the Skinwalker's idiom to do so.

Please do not take this to mean the bad guy is speaking the full truth here, I know how quests can go with word of GM
 
Last edited:
As far as Molly knows you have not, it appears from the plans she has glimpsed to be trying to actively kill Harry and not you. That does not preclude Broken Seeker trying to kill you after Harry has been dealt with, either of its own volition or because of its mysterious employer, but right now it seems to be trying for Harry.

One other thing, courtesy of actually looking up this kind of being several months ago: To the question of why anyone would ask the assassin in so many words to kill and eat the target and not say 'bring me their head', it might be because the assassin is a semi-divine spirit of greed, murder and cannibalism. This is not Victor Sells frog demon, even at the scale of beings who can afford to command the likes of Broken Seeker they would not do so lightly and they may have to use the Skinwalker's idiom to do so.

Please do not take this to mean the bad guy is speaking the full truth here, I know how quests can go with word of GM
Hmm... This is very tempting to apply Crown to the call we are on right now and ask who is behind the murder attempt discussed in this call. If essence wasn't so right, I think I'd go for this. What do you guys think? This would give us valuable information.
 
Everyone has a price. If it is here on someone's behalf, the only way his behavior makes sense if sticking to the letter, but not the spirit or the intent is still valid. That pretty much says fae or magical contract.
For one thing, thats not true.
Not everyone has a price, and most people have stuff they will not sell or bargain for.
Most parents will not sell their children, for example.


Naagloshii are not fae. They can lie.
Thats the whole point of being a shapeshifter who can take the forms of others; we see Shagnasty impersonate a security guard and lie onscreen during Turn Coat.

And I think I've conclusively cited evidence suggesting their unwillingness to do shit under duress
Even such duress as a binding contract.
Especially if their magic power works like those of wizards with regards to oaths.

I maintain that you are wildly extrapolating with too little evidence.
Agree to disagree.

Supernatural world gives no shits; you make an arrangement and you keep to it until someone else breaks it, you find a loophole, or the terms are met.
Fairness doesn't factor into it and human standards of what qualifies as a valid deal rank even lower than that.
^^^
This.

We can and should set our own rules. Mab would hold to the word she gave under duress and exact terrible revenge centuries later. We just won't hold to said word. It's a valid tactic, as long as it's known that we do hold to our word not given under duress.

We don't have to play by these rules.
Yes you do if you intend to operate in this society.

Sovereign citizens bullshit gets as short a shrift in the supernatural as it does in the real world.
This is a society, and there are society standards in play, loose as they are.
You cannot reject their reality and substitute your own.

Not yet at least.

If the rules were good enough to prevent friends and family from being targeted I'd consider following them.
They are not.

So I don't give a damn about the rules and I'm willing to directly betray our word, we are Exalted after all, our word doesn't us in any particular way, no more than circle or threshold do.

All breaking them would do is drawing more enemies to us, to which I'd say let them come.
1)You break the rules, you eat the consequences, reputational and otherwise.
And they do exist for everyone. There's a reason why oathbreaker is an insult, and the Archive explicitly advises Marcone to be scrupulous about his dealings with Monoc.


2)My sibling in Christ, we are currently trying to keep two of Molly's friends alive and are having issues doing it
The idea that we can aggro most of the setting and win is just hubris.

As far as Molly knows you have not, it appears from the plans she has glimpsed to be trying to actively kill Harry and not you. That does not preclude Broken Seeker trying to kill you after Harry has been dealt with, either of its own volition or because of its mysterious employer, but right now it seems to be trying for Harry.

One other thing, courtesy of actually looking up this kind of being several months ago: To the question of why anyone would ask the assassin in so many words to kill and eat the target and not say 'bring me their head', it might be because the assassin is a semi-divine spirit of greed, murder and cannibalism. This is not Victor Sells frog demon, even at the scale of beings who can afford to command the likes of Broken Seeker they would not do so lightly and they may have to use the Skinwalker's idiom to do so.

Please do not take this to mean the bad guy is speaking the full truth here, I know how quests can go with word of GM
I am cognizant of how difficult it must be for a GM to work around the exigencies of an ability like the Crown, and I'm not trying to be difficult. But this?
This doesnt appear to make any sense.

He could have taken Dresden if he really wanted to, without much issue.
His involving Molly actively makes things worse for him. Even getting Molly to deliver Dresden under duress doesnt prevent her seeking retribution in the future; given that he took her friends, he just guaranteed it.

The only thing that I can possibly think of is if Mab called dibs and he's trying to avoid coming up on her to-do list by using a proxy.
But that has never stopped people before, even when he was officially Winter Emissary.
And Mab wouldnt be fooled by such.

Either the story doesnt make sense, or we're missing a piece.
I dont like it.

EDIT
Maybe HE wants Dresden, but someone else(call them X) wants Molly/Lydia.
And part of the deal is ensuring they are at a particular location where a summoning can be triggered?
Which would satisfy the whole incomplete truth vibes Im getting.

Hmm... This is very tempting to apply Crown to the call we are on right now and ask who is behind the murder attempt discussed in this call. If essence wasn't so right, I think I'd go for this. What do you guys think? This would give us valuable information.
The call. Or the flipphone.
If it turns up a supernatural secret, we're net Essence positive, so I'm leaning towards it.
 
Last edited:
I am cognizant of how difficult it must be for a GM to work around the exigencies of an ability like the Crown, and I'm not trying to be difficult. But this?
This doesnt appear to make any sense.

He could have taken Dresden if he really wanted to, without much issue.
His involving Molly actively makes things worse for him. Even getting Molly to deliver Dresden under duress doesnt prevent her seeking retribution in the future; given that he took her friends, he just guaranteed it.

The only thing that I can possibly think of is if Mab called dibs and he's trying to avoid coming up on her to-do list by using a proxy.
But that has never stopped people before, even when he was officially Winter Emissary.
And Mab wouldnt be fooled by such.

Either the story doesnt make sense, or we're missing a piece.
I dont like it.

EDIT
Maybe HE wants Dresden, but someone else(call them X) wants Molly/Lydia.
And part of the deal is ensuring they are at a particular location where a summoning can be triggered?
Which would satisfy the whole incomplete truth vibes Im getting.


The call. Or the flipphone.
If it turns up a supernatural secret, we're net Essence positive, so I'm leaning towards it.

Molly is an Exalt with this intimacy: Harry Dresden Crush/Hero Worship. This is something that could be deduced from behavior or it could have been divined by magic, either way Molly is an Infernal Exalt with this intimacy. The best way to solve that problem is to kill her first, the second best way is to kill the intimacy.

I am trying not to give spoilers here, but yes you are missing something.
 
Last edited:
1)You break the rules, you eat the consequences, reputational and otherwise.
And they do exist for everyone. There's a reason why oathbreaker is an insult, and the Archive explicitly advises Marcone to be scrupulous about his dealings with Monoc.


2)My sibling in Christ, we are currently trying to keep two of Molly's friends alive and are having issues doing it
The idea that we can aggro most of the setting and win is just hubris.
Most of the setting does not care in the least if you break your word or bond. That is explicitly an western Europe Greek Roman influenced philosophy. African, and American, creatures did not form under that philosophy, and Eastern creatures would congratulate you on killing someone what tried to force you into a deal you did not want.
 
We can and should set our own rules. Mab would hold to the word she gave under duress and exact terrible revenge centuries later. We just won't hold to said word. It's a valid tactic, as long as it's known that we do hold to our word not given under duress.

We don't have to play by these rules.
If the rules were good enough to prevent friends and family from being targeted I'd consider following them.
They are not.

So I don't give a damn about the rules and I'm willing to directly betray our word, we are Exalted after all, our word doesn't us in any particular way, no more than circle or threshold do.

All breaking them would do is drawing more enemies to us, to which I'd say let them come.
This is some sovereign citizen ranting at Goldman-Sachs style stuff.

We're in their marketplace; the consequences aren't more enemies, it's people being unwilling to take our proverbial money. They won't even bother saying anything to us about it, it'll just get marked down and reacted to.
 
Yes you do if you intend to operate in this society.

Sovereign citizens bullshit gets as short a shrift in the supernatural as it does in the real world.
This is a society, and there are society standards in play, loose as they are.
You cannot reject their reality and substitute your own.

Not yet at least.
Yes we can if we offer a valid alternative and have firepower to back it up. "I keep my word, but word given under duress means nothing" is a valid way to do deals with people.
Either the story doesnt make sense, or we're missing a piece.
I dont like it.
Or he's actively, actually, honestly, fully is telling the truth. He is kinda sympathetic to Molly, and regards her if not favorably, then like something of a very distant kin / potential future ally. So, he doesn't want to mess with what's hers, but can't get out of the contract. So, he's looking for compromises.

This logic works. He thinks he understands Molly. He spent time trying to understand what Molly was, and came to wrong conclusions. He spent time to understand what Molly's relationship with Harry was, and, filtered through the lenses of his mind, came to certain conclusions. Under this logic, everything works.
This is some sovereign citizen ranting at Goldman-Sachs style stuff.

We're in their marketplace; the consequences aren't more enemies, it's people being unwilling to take our proverbial money. They won't even bother saying anything to us about it, it'll just get marked down and reacted to.
Again, "keep your word, but not one given under active duress" is a valid policy. As long as we are known to keep our deals when those deals are made by negotiation, but not when there are guns to our friends heads? That's motivation to talk to us, instead of putting guns to our friends heads.
 
1)You break the rules, you eat the consequences, reputational and otherwise.
And they do exist for everyone. There's a reason why oathbreaker is an insult, and the Archive explicitly advises Marcone to be scrupulous about his dealings with Monoc.
If we weigh the death of two innocent people and Molly's word – it shouldn't be even the consideration. Yeah, Molly will loose her reputation among some supernatural monsters (or even neutral or good guys), so what? All people who are important for her will perfectly understand the decision.

I think that the current discussion is strongly influenced by the biases about keeping the word no matter the consequences that were introduced IC, because of the nature of fairies. Harry, when he became the Winter Knight, inherited these biases. The same can be said about all signatories of the Unseelie Accords, which are influenced by their overseer, Mab.
 
[X] Plan Call and reinforcements
-[X] The call
--[X] Ask more questions about his deal, try to see how sincere he is
--[X] Empathy excellency, ATB with willpower
--[X] Crown Question: [Focus: Call] What circumstances brought Broken Seeker here?
--[X] Binding agreements can be a bitch, you can sympathize with that. Would it help if you murdered all his employers, their families, allies, and cute little pets? You and a lot of others (allude to but don't mention Denarians and Winter) need Dresden alive, and intact without interruptions to those states.
--[X] How long does he have until he really needs Dresden dead?
--[X] Reiterate that the moment real harm comes to your friends, all deals are off and you'll be finding and killing Broken Seeker. Unhealthy habits for an immortal monstrosity of a bygone age or not, these are your mortals, and you put work into them.
-[X] Reinforcements
--[X] Indicate to Harry (by writing on a piece of paper) to call Alphas for help in evacuating Izzy and Alec
--[X] Have Harry call Murphy about the developing situation

We have to call Murphy because we did give our word, and this is an active situation, where SI is likely to be involved in the fallout. Alphas are a good idea for extraction, ok.

EDIT: Edited the crown question.
 
Last edited:
This is some sovereign citizen ranting at Goldman-Sachs style stuff.

We're in their marketplace; the consequences aren't more enemies, it's people being unwilling to take our proverbial money. They won't even bother saying anything to us about it, it'll just get marked down and reacted to.
This shouldn't be consideration when we don't have the plan to save two people without killing Harry. Yeah, breaking the word will make Molly's life more difficult, but this is fine as long as it will help her friends in mortal peril.
 
Last edited:
This is some sovereign citizen ranting at Goldman-Sachs style stuff.

We're in their marketplace; the consequences aren't more enemies, it's people being unwilling to take our proverbial money. They won't even bother saying anything to us about it, it'll just get marked down and reacted to.
I think a reputation for killing people who abduct our friends is a good thing.

A reputation for doing so even at the expense of the normal rules might actually mean enough to keep them safe.
 
Most of the setting does not care in the least if you break your word or bond. That is explicitly an western Europe Greek Roman influenced philosophy. African, and American, creatures did not form under that philosophy, and Eastern creatures would congratulate you on killing someone what tried to force you into a deal you did not want.
Citation needed.
Because Im pretty sure this is egregiously false.
In the Dresden Files AND in Kindred of the East.
This shouldn't be consideration when we don't have the plan to save two people without killing Harry. Yeah, breaking the word will make Molly's life more difficult, but this is fine as long as it will help to help her friends in mortal peril.
When BronzeTongue says your money wont be taken, they arent just talking about trade.
It means you arent trustworthy. Your word is not good. People cannot make agreements with you because they believe you will break it if you think its to your profit, or can justify it to yourself that its unfair.

You are near-totally incapable of operating in the greater supernatural society, where the only currency is your reputation.
While your enemies, even the Red Court can.
Even the Yama Kings' word is good, else they would be incapable of buying people's souls.

People dont realize precisely how crippling this is.
We hired Monoc on credit when we had to go up against Kakuri, and they took it because our word was good. Mab accepted we would call on her because our word was presumed good.

We're already an archdevil as far as most people are concerned.
We dont need to be known as an archdevil who cant keep their word to boot.
 
2) Its been a while since you read the books.
Alphas kill ghouls and Fomor servitors, and cripple Whampires. They were Dresden's battlefield escort in Summer Knight through the fighting Fae Courts. They chased off Cowl in Dead Beat.
They're only and exactly as tough as old school wolves with human brains behind them. They get away with a lot with tactics, known grounds, and local numerical superiority. I wouldn't trust them against these guys.

Their teacher is someone special though; a wolf that figured out how to transform into a human. We see basically nothing of her, but that sounds like someone with a lot of spirit heritage to me.
Yes we can if we offer a valid alternative and have firepower to back it up. "I keep my word, but word given under duress means nothing" is a valid way to do deals with people.
The problem here is that they don't care; they have standards and like them as they are.

You also sort of need to broadcast your rules in advance even if you try this sort of thing. They'll reach the part where you swore an oath then broke it and stop listening.

This is exactly like dealing with bankers after signing a contract. They genuinely don't care about your opinion, and being right or wrong has no bearing on the consequences.

Our options are to play the game till we win hard enough to change the parts we don't like or self sabotage on principle and harm our own ability to be productive.

Do you want to feel good right now or do you want to win?

Again, "keep your word, but not one given under active duress" is a valid policy. As long as we are known to keep our deals when those deals are made by negotiation, but not when there are guns to our friends heads? That's motivation to talk to us, instead of putting guns to our friends heads.
The thing you're missing is that these understandings are built as basic as possible because they're lowest common denominator between legitimately alien intelligences. Ones that have been at this a while.

Legitimate, rational, explicable, policies are all great. Violate community standards and they'll react the same as if you'd done the for completely unreasonable ones.

Most of the setting does not care in the least if you break your word or bond. That is explicitly an western Europe Greek Roman influenced philosophy. African, and American, creatures did not form under that philosophy, and Eastern creatures would congratulate you on killing someone what tried to force you into a deal you did not want.
For the DF it is; part of it is fey, but a lot of it is baked into the setting top to bottom.

If we weigh the death of two innocent people and Molly's word – it shouldn't be even the consideration. Yeah, Molly will loose her reputation among some supernatural monsters (or even neutral or good guys), so what? All people who are important for her will perfectly understand the decision.

I think that the current discussion is strongly influenced by the biases about keeping the word no matter the consequences that were introduced IC, because of the nature of fairies. Harry, when he became the Winter Knight, inherited these biases. The same can be said about all signatories of the Unseelie Accords, which are influenced by their overseer, Mab.
I think you're underestimating the importance of this stuff, but that aside we're still operating in that space even if there are areas that don't.

I'm not saying to let two innocent people die over it, but personally I'm not satisfied that this is actually necessary or effective.

Broken Seeker isn't going to leave himself open at this age, so we're not actually solving the problem.

He's not just going to hand over his hostages, send his minions out of town, and show up alone to say hello or something.

What we need if we want to change the equation is leverage beyond basic violence; BS has done an excellent job making that route too costly for us to want to traverse and he'd be an idiot to let any of it go until he has what he wants and is out of reach.

I think a reputation for killing people who abduct our friends is a good thing.

A reputation for doing so even at the expense of the normal rules might actually mean enough to keep them safe.
Yeah, and a rep for not keeping our promises means not having our promises be valued, which means that next time we're negotiating something delicate we either aren't given the opportunity to try or have to work in even worse conditions.

This guy should die, I'm certainly not defending his actions or anything, but we shouldn't try it during a period we promised not to.

Nicodemus kept this rule for 2,000 years and it was breaking it that truly screwed him over in the end. That should say something.
 
Back
Top