Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

[X] Plan: Engineered Continuation of War
[X] Plan: The Pink Map (Sabotaged)
[X] Plan The Pink Map (No Sabotage)
[X] Plan: The Red Map
[X] Plan: for Domestic Consumption

There is nothing to be gained from a continuation of the war that cannot be achieved without the destruction of Russian power, something which either cannot be achieved or will be a disaster if achieved. Chaos on the eastern frontiers will ensue and if Germany were to aggrandize herself so much as to seize Ukraine, the Baltic ports, or begin to push beyond the borders of Austria into the heart of the Balkans will provoke an extreme reaction from the Entente. This would be a path of madness which will lead to another war shortly. Likely against Russia, France, Britain, and potentially more Balkan powers.

Fingon888 said:

Germany has a responsibility to act as the Great Power it is to secure its interests and the balance of power. Gaining a buffer state with Russia without threatening core Russian territories in Ukraine or the Russian naval bases in the Baltic will permit Russia to turn East and no longer be our foe. Maybe in 20 years after Russia reforms we can even have a detente with Saint Petersburg. Further the securing of the end of the Habsburg empire by finally united Germany and setting free that Prison of Nations through a conference can set the stage for lasting peace in Eastern Europe. This plan will make Germany the great diplomatic centre of Europe on which all major international decisions turn. We also gain a handy monetary compensation.

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How do you envision Russia reforming?

While I don't think you're entirely wrong, fitting ourselves into the Entente diplomatic order by playing by their rules and becoming an equal member in maintaining said order sounds boring. At that point foreign policy ceases to matter because we vote lock step with London and Paris. Why subject ourselves to that? That might have been a win for the First Republic, but this is the Second Republic.

[X] Plan Peace Out v2

[X] Plan The Pink Map (No Sabotage)

Fission Battery said:

How do you envision Russia reforming?

While I don't think you're entirely wrong, fitting ourselves into the Entente diplomatic order by playing by their rules and becoming an equal member in maintaining said order sounds boring. At that point foreign policy ceases to matter because we vote lock step with London and Paris. Why subject ourselves to that? That might have been a win for the First Republic, but this is the Second Republic.

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The quest writing has indicated the next Tsar is interested in reforms. He may be inclined to implement reforms to Russian banking, finance, ownership laws, industry, etc. to bring it into line with Western capitalist standards. Further reforms potentially to the state, such as movements towards a constitutional monarchy, would be very welcome. Ultimately Russia is a great power that Germany cannot simply conquer, the Russian people will resist such liberation as they have shown in the past. A Russia which is turning east in its ambitions and seeking to improve itself can become a trade partner and a partner in maintaining a balance of power in the Balkans. A role we shall soon have to take up since the Austrian collapse will result in conflict among Balkan states.

Fingon888 said:

Germany has a responsibility to act as the Great Power it is to secure its interests and the balance of power.

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This is both too optimistic and not ambitious enough. We're not one empire among many, we are the spectre haunting their house. We will never be allowed to set up that kind of normalization long term without selling out our governing principles, and we shouldn't even if we could.

Dealing in good faith with autocratic empires while setting up independent nations rather than reconstruction occupations is a recipe for disaster. If we want immediate independence for countries as part of our negotiations, we should come to the table as ideologically committed revolutionaries to ensure those countries will follow those principles too regardless of the short schedule to nationhood.

That said, I agree we shouldn't just set Russia on fire and walk out, that would be murderously irresponsible.

Fingon888 said:

The quest writing has indicated the next Tsar is interested in reforms. He may be inclined to implement reforms to Russian banking, finance, ownership laws, industry, etc. to bring it into line with Western capitalist standards. Further reforms potentially to the state, such as movements towards a constitutional monarchy, would be very welcome. Ultimately Russia is a great power that Germany cannot simply conquer, the Russian people will resist such liberation as they have shown in the past. A Russia which is turning east in its ambitions and seeking to improve itself can become a trade partner and a partner in maintaining a balance of power in the Balkans. A role we shall soon have to take up since the Austrian collapse will result in conflict among Balkan states.

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None of this is good? A constitutional liberal democratic Russia would be a nightmare for us, because it would be entente aligned and a lot more capable of leveraging its strengths than the current Russia.

"reform" isn't a straight slide from their position to ours. No whiggish march of history will make the Tsar our friend.

[X] Plan Peace Out v2
[X] Dispense Liberation, Eliminate Hapsburg (-1 Leverage)

Fingon888 said:

The quest writing has indicated the next Tsar is interested in reforms. He may be inclined to implement reforms to Russian banking, finance, ownership laws, industry, etc. to bring it into line with Western capitalist standards. Further reforms potentially to the state, such as movements towards a constitutional monarchy, would be very welcome. Ultimately Russia is a great power that Germany cannot simply conquer, the Russian people will resist such liberation as they have shown in the past. A Russia which is turning east in its ambitions and seeking to improve itself can become a trade partner and a partner in maintaining a balance of power in the Balkans. A role we shall soon have to take up since the Austrian collapse will result in conflict among Balkan states.

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That sounds terrible. I hope such a dark future doesn't come to pass. The fundamental nature of the Tsarist regime won't change even if it grants political reforms. It won't do anything that limits the power of the crown, church, or aristocracy. Any market liberalization will be paid for in blood by the peasantry, and Jewish people in particular, as they're squeezed dry to finance the reforms. Economic liberalization doesn't equal political liberalization. I don't see how any of that is a good thing. The country refused to modernize agriculture even to 19th century standards because the aristocracy didn't want to displace the peasantry because they were worried it'd disrupt their crushing grip on power in the countryside. Peasants farmed with basic hand tools with next to zero mechanization at all. The literacy rate was lower than the America South.

There is the continued pogroms as well. Any money given to Russia will directly fund the murder of Jewish people. It's just a quest so nobody's actually going to get hurt based on our policies, but funding Tsarist policies is a serious feels bad mechanic that I rather not support. That sounds unfun.

[X] Plan The Pink Map (No Sabotage)

[X] Plan Peace Out v2

So here's how I see the major plans going if they were to be enacted-

[] Plan for Domestic Consumption
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria must pay modest reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

This has -2 leverage, the borderline of rejection, which combined with the middle diplomatic stances, puts it on the line of getting a counteroffer or a rejection. Could go either way. If we get a counter offer we'll probably get a choice of taking it or having a diplomatic hit. A counter offer will of course mean removing or weakening some of these demands. Maybe we'll get a choice on what we compromise on.

[] Dispense Liberation, Eliminate Hapsburg (-1 Leverage)
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

As it says, -1 leverage. Same as "for Domestic Consumption" but without any reparations. Maybe a chance of being accepted (with international hit), less likely for an outright rejection. Probably gets a counteroffer.

[] Plan The Pink Map (No Sabotage)
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control. (-4)
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders. (-2)
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned. (-1)
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations. (+0)
-[] The other League states must be reorganized. (-2)

-3 leverage, so an automatic rejection. This will be taken by the Entente and League as roughly indicating our war aims (Any peace offer will, but I think this is most important in a peace deal that will absolutely not be accepted). So they'll expect our final aims to be Confederation borders, Poland-Lithuania, remaining Habsburg areas partitions, and reorganizing Romania/Bulgaria.

[] Plan: The limits of our ambition
-[] We will engage in good faith.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

-1 leverage, and in good faith. Other than the stance, same as "Dispense Liberation, Eliminate Hapsburg." With the stance change, probably more likely to be accepted, or it may receive a more stringent counteroffer if the League thinks this means we're eager for peace. Probably not a rejection. The partition of the Habsburg domains may be more against us as a result of the stance.

[] Plan: Engineered Continuation of War
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall remain under Allied control. (-2)
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.(-4)
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned. (-1)
-[] Russia and Austria must pay severe reparations. (-2)
-[] The other League states shall not be punished. (0)

-3 leverage, another automatic rejection. Aligns with territory presently occupied, plus reparations and partitioning of what is left of the Habsburgs.

[] Plan The Pink Map (Sabotaged)
-[] We will sabotage the talks.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control. (-4)
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders. (-2)
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned. (-1)
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations. (+0)
-[] The other League states must be reorganized. (-2)

Identical with the first Pink map plan, but with the sabotage stance. This will get a harsher diplomatic response from the Entente, unclear impact on final peace if we make more extreme demands there.

[] Plan: The Red Map
-[] We will sabotage the talks.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria must pay severe reparations.
-[] The other League states must be reorganized

-8 leverage, wildly unacceptable to the League, automatic rejection. In etranger's words "if you put up a -8 Leverage plan it indicates that you're about to go Napoleon on Eastern Europe" with accompanying consequences from the Entente. The war will continue and Entente intervention becomes much more likely, and sooner.

These are the only plans with more than five votes right now, so they're all I'll cover.

Overall, none of these plans are in the positive, which means none are automatic acceptance. The ones at -1 or -2 may be accepted, or rejected, or face a counter offer. The others are auto rejects. This means there's a very real possibility, even for the -1 or -2 plans, that we're forced to either compromise for less in the peace, or continue the war anyways. Fundamentally I don't think the leverage and costs here allow us to get what I consider an acceptable peace. We have the League on the ropes, the Habsburg Empire is dying, the Russians strain and rely on Entente support to keep in the fight, and Romania and Bulgaria have been thrown into the fray to staunch the bleeding and done basically nothing to help. If we push on only a little bit more we can secure a more decisive peace.

So I endorse any of the -3 leverage plans, they'll ensure the war continues without upsetting the Entente too much. The -1 and -2 plans leave open the issue of counter offers, or worse an outright acceptance. Red Map is unfortunately the worst choice, since it both ensures the war continues and all but guarantees Entente intervention of some form.

Nyvis said:

This is both too optimistic and not ambitious enough. We're not one empire among many, we are the spectre haunting their house. We will never be allowed to set up that kind of normalization long term without selling out our governing principles, and we shouldn't even if we could.

Dealing in good faith with autocratic empires while setting up independent nations rather than reconstruction occupations is a recipe for disaster. If we want immediate independence for countries as part of our negotiations, we should come to the table as ideologically committed revolutionaries to ensure those countries will follow those principles too regardless of the short schedule to nationhood.

That said, I agree we shouldn't just set Russia on fire and walk out, that would be murderously irresponsible.



None of this is good? A constitutional liberal democratic Russia would be a nightmare for us, because it would be entente aligned and a lot more capable of leveraging its strengths than the current Russia.

"reform" isn't a straight slide from their position to ours. No whiggish march of history will make the Tsar our friend.

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Poland being aligned with us is actually a bad thing strategically because a neutral Poland provides a buffer state between us and Russia. Particularly if that Poland has good relations with the Entente as well. On the question of working with non-socialist states, we must confront the basic truth that we do not pick the governments of other people. It does us no good to regard our neighbors and adversaries as intractable foes.

Ultimately Germany has reached a secure frontier with all the Germans finally united. The dream of German Nationalism has been won. Friendly republics abound in Denmark, Italy, and Spain. We have good relations with the United States. There is no quarrel with France that is insurmountable. Alsace may be a dream of the most ardent nationalists but the Alsatians will never surrender the French flag. France herself is content within their hexagon. As for colonialism it is not in Germany's interests to provoke a confrontation over something so beyond the national interest of the German people and economy. German arms has won her place, now let peace reign. We need not bring socialism at the point of a bayonet.

Fingon888 said:

Poland being aligned with us is actually a bad thing strategically because a neutral Poland provides a buffer state between us and Russia. Particularly if that Poland has good relations with the Entente as well. On the question of working with non-socialist states, we must confront the basic truth that we do not pick the governments of other people. It does us no good to regard our neighbors and adversaries as intractable foes.

Ultimately Germany has reached a secure frontier with all the Germans finally united. The dream of German Nationalism has been won. Friendly republics abound in Denmark, Italy, and Spain. We have good relations with the United States. There is no quarrel with France that is insurmountable. Alsace may be a dream of the most ardent nationalists but the Alsatians will never surrender the French flag. France herself is content within their hexagon. As for colonialism it is not in Germany's interests to provoke a confrontation over something so beyond the national interest of the German people and economy. German arms has won her place, now let peace reign. We need not bring socialism at the point of a bayonet.

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Oh we do not need to pick their governments, but just as the Entente supports who it wishes the Republican Alliance are also free to edit2: aid radical republican and socialist rebels all across the world as we see fit.

Fundamentally, your stance of tacit support for Entente colonialism and seeking a peace with the bloc that is responsible for the deadly blockade amid our civil war proves how out of step your view is even with the most right wing of the four parties: the anti-monarchist Jacobin Radicals. The assumption that we could seek accord with the imperialist monarchies, that the Entente would not seek to dismantle the edit: social-and-radical Republican Alliance and the various radical movements we've helped thrive thru the creation of the International Radical Association, is just downright naive.

[X] Plan: The Red Map
-[X] We will sabotage the talks.
-[X] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[X] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[X] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[X] Russia and Austria must pay severe reparations.
-[X] The other League states must be reorganized

[X] Plan: Engineered Continuation of War
[X] Plan: The Pink Map (Sabotaged)
[X] Plan The Pink Map (No Sabotage)

Regency said:

Fundamentally, your stance of tacit support for Entente colonialism and seeking a peace with the bloc that is responsible for the deadly blockade amid our civil war proves how out of step your view is even with the most right wing of the four parties: the anti-monarchist Jacobin Radicals.

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On this I certainly agree, I had stopped voting in the elections because there was no party to vote for, I hope to revive a social-democratic or bureaucratic party of peace and moderation after this war.

[X] Plan The Pink Map (No Sabotage)

Fingon888 said:

Poland being aligned with us is actually a bad thing strategically because a neutral Poland provides a buffer state between us and Russia. Particularly if that Poland has good relations with the Entente as well. On the question of working with non-socialist states, we must confront the basic truth that we do not pick the governments of other people. It does us no good to regard our neighbors and adversaries as intractable foes.

Ultimately Germany has reached a secure frontier with all the Germans finally united. The dream of German Nationalism has been won. Friendly republics abound in Denmark, Italy, and Spain. We have good relations with the United States. There is no quarrel with France that is insurmountable. Alsace may be a dream of the most ardent nationalists but the Alsatians will never surrender the French flag. France herself is content within their hexagon. As for colonialism it is not in Germany's interests to provoke a confrontation over something so beyond the national interest of the German people and economy. German arms has won her place, now let peace reign. We need not bring socialism at the point of a bayonet.

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We do in fact have a shot at picking the government structure of the states we reorganize and we shouldn't pass it up out of squeamishness. Letting people labour under landlords and kings when we have the means to free them is not acceptable.

Also, the capitalist class will not stop murdering socialists just because we aren't on a war footing. Even if we want to spread socialism through political organization in the rest of the world, we will have to be ready to defend it by force of arms.

Fingon888 said:

German arms has won her place, now let peace reign.

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No.

There will be no peace with the Entente, not in the long term. They will not suffer our existence any longer than they are politically able. The only question is whether or not you're willing to meet their inevitable aggression against us with a rifle in hand or if you want to disarm yourself in a foolish attempt at appeasement.

You're wrong about colonialism not being about us, too. The entire machine of contemporary industry runs off of colonialism. The rubber we import to build our machines is gathered from Congolese peasants that have their hands hacked off by King Leopold's goons if they fail to meet quota. You can't just close your eyes to what's going on outside of Europe, and that you insist that we must is...... I have few words to describe it that would be permissible on this forum.

TheArcanist said:

You can't just close your eyes to what's going on outside of Europe, and that you insist that we must is...... I have few words to describe it that would be permissible on this forum.

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First of all, let's please relax. We are roleplaying here.

Secondly, I am not arguing for disarmament at all. War readiness is good! We should be prepared to face aggression. But we should not be seeking an offensive war against France and Britain and potentially even the United States if it came to it. The fact of the matter is that it is the job of the German government to defend the interests of her citizens first, and of those other people second. I'm not saying we roll over, I'm saying we pursue a responsible and measured policy. There are few disasters worse than modern war.

Fingon888 said:

First of all, let's please relax. We are roleplaying here.

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We're not? You haven't given any indication you're writing a character piece, you're just posting on SV as yourself.

Fingon888 said:

The fact of the matter is that it is the job of the German government to defend the interests of her citizens first, and of those other people second.

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Is it though. This is a specific these on government that we can in fact reject because it's just a race to the bottom.

Nyvis said:

We're not? You haven't given any indication you're writing a character piece, you're just posting on SV as yourself.

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This is a game, a story where we are making the decisions of fictional policy makers in the 19th century. In what way could it not be roleplaying? Are you saying the only legitimate thing to do is to argue for something that you personally think is good or moral? That's not how story-telling and games work and dreadfully boring I'm afraid.