Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Also communities where smaller, and much more tight nit back then. You not going to get away with a random killing here or their, when everybody knows everybody at least in passing.
Communities were also a lot more authoritarian. If the knight up in the manor house "takes liberties" with the peasants who is going to hold them to account?

It's not like they need to kill more than once, and they really don't want to skin the sheep anymore.
Whamps acted most likely just as the kindred of VtM. Fight over the cities and unless you are an overpowered elder avoid the countryside on account of druidic mages, garou, etc. hanging out there. You need your mortal minions as protection against that.
For the DF werewolves are basically a nonfactor. Unless you're dealing with a singular strong member of the cursed variety it's basically just a really good trick for minor practitioners/a nice magic item that turns you into a regular wolf. Scary because they have human intelligence, but not WoD shapeshifter scary.

Fey sort of fill that roll, but not quite. It's more of a mixed bag.
Its not actually gone up. Its just that you can compensate more easily against nonlethal attack.
That said, yes, Whampires benefit the most from human advancements of all the vamp courts.
A group of gunman, or vamps with guns, or simply having dramatically larger organizations make the effort level considerably higher and the ability for meaningful retaliation available at lower levels.

A weaker wizard had a lot more mileage back in the day.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jun 27, 2023 at 9:20 PM, finished with 83 posts and 11 votes.

  • [X] Plan Cheek and Candle
    -[X] BLM, TLF if possible, Empathy excellency
    -[X] Preparatory intel gathering
    --[X] Have Clippy run down their identities, and see if other Ants of God can be identified through their social media connections
    --[X] Use their clothes as foci to learn what they were told by their White Court masters, and who was it that deceived them
    -[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
    --[X] Brief them fully on the prisoners using the gathered information
    -[X] Use BSM to lower the difficulty, ATB with willpower to read them
    -[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    -[X] [Stunt]: In the cold and dark of the Undertown space Molly meets the gaze of her bound and gagged prisoners. With a hint of heat in her voice, she begins to speak "I have to say, I'm upset with you both."
    —[X] " I'm upset about the situation, about the monsters turn ignorance against innocence, and even myself".
    -[X] Turning to the man she had held still for Thomas her eyes do not soften, but an acknowledgment flickers in them. "To you at least I owe an apology. I did what I thought was necessary, would do so again if I had to, but that was no small harm and I wish I could have been cleaner."
    —[X] Resetting herself, Molly continues. "It's a little rich coming from me, but I think we've both built up a sinister image of each other." With a silent signal Molly has Clippy request Micheal and Forthill enter the room.
    —[X] "But where I'm tempted towards dismissal the words of wise men echo in my mind. 'He uncovers the deeps out of darkness and brings deep darkness to light'. I'm hoping that the Lord might show us both what light we missed in each other's shadows" Reaching forward, she takes out the gags.
    —[X] Proceed with explanation of how they were tricked with backing from Micheal and Forthill.
    [X] Terrify them into compliance (Charisma+Intimidation)
    -[X] Stunt: Standing before the bound and kneeling captives, your burning sword held loosely in one hand, you stare deeply into their eyes for several long, uncomfortable seconds. The terror in their gazes is obvious, even before you speak. "Gentleman, you meddle in affairs beyond your understanding. Worse yet, you are wasting my time!" Now it is not only terror you see in those eyes, but shame as well, as the unmistakable odor of urine taints the air. "I'm going to give you each one opportunity to speak to me privately, out of earshot of your fellow conspirator, and you had better pray your stories match and that I believe them to be truthful."
    [X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    [X] Focus on securing the rest of the Order
    -[X] Leave the captives in Undertown with the next run down there, interrogate later
    [X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    -[X] Preparatory intel gathering
    --[X] Have Clippy run down their identities, and see if other Ants of God can be identified through their social media connections
    --[X] Use their clothes as foci to learn what they were told by their White Court masters, and who was it that deceived them
    -[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
    --[X] Brief them fully on the prisoners using the gathered information
    -[X] Use BSM to lower the difficulty, ATB with willpower to read them
    -[X] STUNT: "Be not afraid, *names obtained through data mining*" you say, as you enter the makeshift cell that the prisoners are kept under watch, lest they do harm - to others or themselves. Behind you father Forthil enters, in his habit, bible in hand, and behind him, the Knight of the Cross walks, the Sword of Love on his hip, and every inch a paladin of the Christ. As guards leave, closing the door behind them, you speak again: "You have been deceived and led astray, bewitched by those that would prey on humanity. Do not despair, for we are here, and we can help. "
 
Im not entirely happy with the current vote, so here's mine.

VOTE
[X]Plan Hearts and Minds
-[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
--[X]Transport the prisoners to Last Station for processing, taking care to ensure they cant backtrack their way or recognize the residents
--[X]Clippy + Cyberdevils: Use social media, pics and contents of cellphones, wallets and pockets(driver's license, ATM cards etc) to identify them and build a profile
--[X]Call Michael for moral and countermagic support
--[X]Transcendent Lord of Flies activated by being in Undertown
--[X]Boiling Sea Mastery, All Things Betray, Empathy Excellency and Hellscry Chakra if and where necessary.
-[X]STUNT: "So thats the sitch Dad," you conclude, leading the way towards the makeshift cell where your unwilling guests are currently held.You nod with a smile to the Jade Dogs flanking the door and open it, leading the way inside as you meet the sullen glares of the would-be killers. "Good day gentlemen" is your first comment as you take a seat, adjusting your wet shirt to be a little more comfortable. "We should talk."



REASONS
Molly has Empathy 5, Intimidation 4. Empathy is clearly the superior option.

Michael because at the moment, he's the only person we know of who might be able to break a Whampire mindwhammy with faith magic. Neither Molly nor Lydia has bought Path Countermagic(4x types, 3xp each, 12xp total) or Ancient Sorcery Countermagic, and Harry canonically does not have the skill to undo mindfuckery.

Also, Michael's a veteran, and Camera Guy gives the same impression, and is around Michael's age.
Might be an angle worth exploring


We need countermagic because Camera Guy tried to kill himself rather than be captured. And he was literally saying the Lord's Prayer just before trying to eat his gun. There's no mainstream Christian denomination that condones suicide.
That suggests there may be mindfuckery in play.


No to Father Forthill.
He needs plausible deniability where possible as an officer of the court, and we are currently performing a kidnapping and false imprisonment of two conspirators in a murder plot.

Also, he's Catholic, and only about one fourth to one fifth of Christians in the US are Catholic; he doesnt necessarily get any special authority here.
 
--[X]Transcendent Lord of Flies activated by being in Undertown
That has been debunked, repeatedly. The actions we are taking are not protecting anyone from their environment.
This has also been debunked. The ants of god are mortal, and aren't creatures of darkness, hellscry chakra is entirely useless.
There's no mainstream Christian denomination that condones suicide.
They are not mainstream Christian denomination. The "don't let devils take you, so you do not betray the cause" is a very easy leap here.
 
That has been debunked, repeatedly. The actions we are taking are not protecting anyone from their environment.
You are mistaken.
Its not from their environment, its in their environment.
See when we raised Bane in Helen's apartment; Transcendent Lord of Flies applied to that ritual, and was the reason why we went from 15 to almost 30 successes.

Here, we would be interrogating a pair of Ants in Undertown in order to better protect members of Cauldron who we are hiding in Last Station in Undertown, which is a place of desolation.
TLF applies.
This has also been debunked. The ants of god are mortal, and aren't creatures of darkness, hellscry chakra is entirely useless.
1)The QM hasnt ruled on whether we can sense hostile CoD magic controlling other people.
Its certainly on the list of what aura perception does.


2)Whampire Disciplines are modelled on Kindred Disciplines, as we see with Leinth, Lara and Thomas.
That opens a lot of room for remote chicanery by those with the resources, and the Heir of House Skavis has the pull to recruit people with those skills. And thats not counting whatever aid his unknown backers gave him.

Looking through the eyes of minions is a Discipline thing, as is listening to their thoughts, astral projecting to their location, or whispering in their heads. Look up Auspex 5: Psychic Projection, for instance.
And I'm not even talking combination Disciplines.

Hellscry Chakra has applications here.
Thats why I mentioned it as an option if Molly IC thought it was necessary. She might not.
They are not mainstream Christian denomination. The "don't let devils take you, so you do not betray the cause" is a very easy leap here.
We dont actually know that.
We know nothing about the backgrounds of any of these people, and there is as of yet nothing to suggest they all share anything besides membership in this kill the witches organization.

For all we know they were brought together wholesale by a Whampire using Presence and Domination.


No it is not.
Thats not how Christianity works, and I speak as someone who knows people raised in at least three different denominations as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even fringe Christian cults very seldom ascribe to suicide, and especially not in the face of the enemy.
When he broke free for a turn instead of shooting at us, he tried to shoot himself.
That doesnt sound like normal even for a cultist.
 
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Here, we would be interrogating a pair of Ants in Undertown in order to better protect members of Cauldron who we are hiding in Last Station in Undertown, which is a place of desolation.
TLF applies.
I explicitly asked about that in my plan and got a no.

I'm also skeptical of HC doing anything because the ruling you're asking about is on a property that isn't even implied by the charm.

Overall our plans seem fairly similar, the functional difference being Forthill and the stunt.

My stunt is way more dramatic, but I still like it better to be honest.
 
You are mistaken.
Its not from their environment, its in their environment.
See when we raised Bane in Helen's apartment; Transcendent Lord of Flies applied to that ritual, and was the reason why we went from 15 to almost 30 successes.

Here, we would be interrogating a pair of Ants in Undertown in order to better protect members of Cauldron who we are hiding in Last Station in Undertown, which is a place of desolation.
TLF applies
It doesn't, we have asked several times with different justifications. To prevent TLF from being active all the time it has been ruled that it only applies when we are trying to feed others, and to protect others from environment while we are in places of desolation.

Bane creating ritual was environmental protection (crime being inherently part of bad neighborhood's environment), or QM mistake. Please read the discussion starting from the last update (or wait an hour for me to find quotes).

1)The QM hasnt ruled on whether we can sense hostile CoD magic controlling other people.
Its certainly on the list of what aura perception does.
Aura perception can only be enacted against / towards creatures of darkness. This is why we cannot see Lash in Dresden's head - because despite being possessed, he's not a creature of darkness. This has been pretty thoroughly explained. If target is not a creature of darkness, we cannot see their aura.

Looking through the eyes of minions is a Discipline thing, as is listening to their thoughts, astral projecting to their location, or whispering in their heads. Look up Auspex 5: Psychic Projection, for instance.
And I'm not even talking combination Disciplines.
And, again, we couldn't see Lash because Dresden is not a creature of darkness, but we could see Nemesis because Maeve is. Hellscry Chakra remains much narrower than you keep trying to sell it as.

We dont actually know that.
We know nothing about the backgrounds of any of these people, and there is as of yet nothing to suggest they all share anything besides membership in this kill the witches organization.

For all we know they were brought together wholesale by a Whampire using Presence and Domination.


No it is not.
Thats not how Christianity works, and I speak as someone who knows people raised in at least three different denominations as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even fringe Christian cults very seldom ascribe to suicide, and especially not in the face of the enemy.
When he broke free for a turn instead of shooting at us, he tried to shoot himself.
That doesnt sound like normal even for a cultist.
Suicide is a sin. Martyrdom is a virtue. It's not that hard to spin. Remember, suicide is also considered a cardinal sin in Islam.
 
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It's still as funny/depressing, here we are with an argument repeatedly showing that Uju's plan is based on false premises, and people still vote for him.
 
It's still as funny/depressing, here we are with an argument repeatedly showing that Uju's plan is based on false premises, and people still vote for him.
In fairness the stunts are the main difference once you get that bit out, and if you don't like the flavor of mine you get the same functionality out of his.

So there's legitimate cause to vote that way anyway even without the invalid charm factors.

Edit:

Though on the charm note, here's the question I asked on TLF and the ruling DP gave @uju32 :

@DragonParadox if have them and Ordo members down in the last station could we activate TLF on the basis of protecting the Ordo from the Ant's allies? On a similar basis to something like making tracking checks against two wolves from a pack you think is hunting your charges.
No, these people do not pose an environmental danger, it is not intrinsic to the place just because they are there.
 
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@uju32 has a point about Helen's apartment, but you were literally making a sanctuary then, that would protect the people within from external attack, protecting someone by interrogation is too many steps removed. Sorry for the confussion.
 
@uju32 has a point about Helen's apartment, but you were literally making a sanctuary then, that would protect the people within from external attack, protecting someone by interrogation is too many steps removed. Sorry for the confussion.
Ok, so ward making / making the environment safer (such as installing gun turrets) would work, but more removed stuff won't. Would designing defenses also work?
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 28, 2023 at 8:29 AM, finished with 102 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Plan Cheek and Candle
    -[X] BLM, TLF if possible, Empathy excellency
    -[X] Preparatory intel gathering
    --[X] Have Clippy run down their identities, and see if other Ants of God can be identified through their social media connections
    --[X] Use their clothes as foci to learn what they were told by their White Court masters, and who was it that deceived them
    -[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
    --[X] Brief them fully on the prisoners using the gathered information
    -[X] Use BSM to lower the difficulty, ATB with willpower to read them
    -[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    -[X] [Stunt]: In the cold and dark of the Undertown space Molly meets the gaze of her bound and gagged prisoners. With a hint of heat in her voice, she begins to speak "I have to say, I'm upset with you both."
    —[X] " I'm upset about the situation, about the monsters turn ignorance against innocence, and even myself".
    -[X] Turning to the man she had held still for Thomas her eyes do not soften, but an acknowledgment flickers in them. "To you at least I owe an apology. I did what I thought was necessary, would do so again if I had to, but that was no small harm and I wish I could have been cleaner."
    —[X] Resetting herself, Molly continues. "It's a little rich coming from me, but I think we've both built up a sinister image of each other." With a silent signal Molly has Clippy request Micheal and Forthill enter the room.
    —[X] "But where I'm tempted towards dismissal the words of wise men echo in my mind. 'He uncovers the deeps out of darkness and brings deep darkness to light'. I'm hoping that the Lord might show us both what light we missed in each other's shadows" Reaching forward, she takes out the gags.
    —[X] Proceed with explanation of how they were tricked with backing from Micheal and Forthill.
    [X]Plan Hearts and Minds
    -[X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    --[X]Transport the prisoners to Last Station for processing, taking care to ensure they cant backtrack their way or recognize the residents
    --[X]Clippy + Cyberdevils: Use social media, pics and contents of cellphones, wallets and pockets(driver's license, ATM cards etc) to identify them and build a profile
    --[X]Call Michael for moral and countermagic support
    --[X]Transcendent Lord of Flies activated by being in Undertown
    --[X]Boiling Sea Mastery, All Things Betray, Empathy Excellency and Hellscry Chakra if and where necessary.
    -[X]STUNT: "So thats the sitch Dad," you conclude, leading the way towards the makeshift cell where your unwilling guests are currently held.You nod with a smile to the Jade Dogs flanking the door and open it, leading the way inside as you meet the sullen glares of the would-be killers. "Good day gentlemen" is your first comment as you take a seat, adjusting your wet shirt to be a little more comfortable. "We should talk."
    [X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    [X] Focus on securing the rest of the Order
    -[X] Leave the captives in Undertown with the next run down there, interrogate later
    [X] Terrify them into compliance (Charisma+Intimidation)
    -[X] Stunt: Standing before the bound and kneeling captives, your burning sword held loosely in one hand, you stare deeply into their eyes for several long, uncomfortable seconds. The terror in their gazes is obvious, even before you speak. "Gentleman, you meddle in affairs beyond your understanding. Worse yet, you are wasting my time!" Now it is not only terror you see in those eyes, but shame as well, as the unmistakable odor of urine taints the air. "I'm going to give you each one opportunity to speak to me privately, out of earshot of your fellow conspirator, and you had better pray your stories match and that I believe them to be truthful."
    [X] Reveal that they have been lied to and used, try to get through to them (Charisma+Empathy)
    -[X] Preparatory intel gathering
    --[X] Have Clippy run down their identities, and see if other Ants of God can be identified through their social media connections
    --[X] Use their clothes as foci to learn what they were told by their White Court masters, and who was it that deceived them
    -[X] Call dad and father Forthil to help
    --[X] Brief them fully on the prisoners using the gathered information
    -[X] Use BSM to lower the difficulty, ATB with willpower to read them
    -[X] STUNT: "Be not afraid, *names obtained through data mining*" you say, as you enter the makeshift cell that the prisoners are kept under watch, lest they do harm - to others or themselves. Behind you father Forthil enters, in his habit, bible in hand, and behind him, the Knight of the Cross walks, the Sword of Love on his hip, and every inch a paladin of the Christ. As guards leave, closing the door behind them, you speak again: "You have been deceived and led astray, bewitched by those that would prey on humanity. Do not despair, for we are here, and we can help. "
 
It's still as funny/depressing, here we are with an argument repeatedly showing that Uju's plan is based on false premises, and people still vote for him.
If bronze tongue had quoted the post confirming what he was saying earlier I might have considered it. As is I don't want Father Forthill and I don't care about these guys so less dice to convince people I don't care about something I don't care about is something I don't care about.
 
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Arc 8 Post 19: Those on Crooked Paths
Those on Crooked Paths

10th of November 2006 A.D.

There has to be a better way to doing this, you think as you manhandle the older of the men into the backseat of Black Rider. Liz had chosen to take her own car not that you can blame her. "Status report," you say in vague direction of Clippy, trying not to sound waspish. It's not her fault these idiots are abroad in the world.

"No matches, broadening search field. Estimated time to completion twenty hours."

"Of course you wouldn't find stupid ant warriors online," you mutter under your breath, earning a sympathetic look from Thomas and an unreadable one from Harry

That reminds you. "I'm not actually bound by the First Law, you know that right? You were there when we talked about it."

He just kind of grunts at you and turns away. What are you supposed to do now, find a bear-to-English dictionary?

Thomas had been fiddling with his phone all the while, though you now find he's not looking at his Myspace profile. Will relays: "Message from Thomas CEO: He's probably concerned about you killing on accident in general, not knowing your own strength. I'm not an expert on wizards, but I do know a bit about Harry. He does not do well with surprises, at least when they are not the kinds that put his life in danger, those he seems to have a knack for."

To be honest you are not sure what to do about that, if there is even anything that needs doing as opposed to letting Harry get used to the new you, the kinds of things you do. Rather than dwelling on it you decide to phone home and see if dad has any idea how to deal with these 'Ants'. For the first time in... well you are not sure how long your dad is not where you expected him to be, "Called away," your mother says, the emphasis making it clear that it is not by any earthly power.

Now, with all this craziness going on, a small ungrateful part of you huffs. But if not now than when, the work of the knights cannot stop just because Chicago turned into a magnet for wicked stupid stuff.

One other place to check. Recalling that the Library has his number and even Daedalus knows he is involved with Harry you decide to be a bit more circumstance about the people you are carrying around "Hello Father Forthil, I have a bit of a problem you might be able to help me with. Some people have taken to volunteering like you did when you were younger, but they are doing it all wrong, approaching the wrong people. It thought maybe you could help talk some sense into them."

The other end goes quiet for a long moment. "Where do you want to meet."

***​

That is how you end up in the sterile interrogation room, a vampire on one side, a priest on the other. The immaculate tile is somehow more frightening than its previous state of post-modern tomb facing a man tied to a chair, though he isn't facing you exactly. The good father had brought masks, just cheep plastic masks that had probably seen use last Halloween. He had also brought gloves and what looks like an entire crime-scene clean up kid in a black leather bag, like an old-time-y doctor's bag. He had not been expecting to be lead into undertown by Sarah and two other Jade Dogs. The smelling salts are useful though.

The moment he wakes up the prisoner starts pulling at his bindings and when that does not work singing, praying in song to be exact. He's not very musical also utterly irrationally terrified to the point where you do not even think words would register no matter how finely they are polished As you consider the virtues of whacking a helpless prisoner to get him to shup up in front of a priest Father Forthil himself speaks.

"My son if we were all that you fear than in closing your ears to us you do not prove the strength of your faith, but its weakness, be still and listen and if you still count us foes at the end of this than you will at least have learned something of us."

"Apostate! Devil's Catamite!"

He sounds almost fevered, trying to break out in spite of how hopeless this is and yet he's not surprised. You recall what Thomas said about both these men having been fed on before. Is that what set him off...?

"I will not falter before the Devil's brood! My way is open! Open to the trumpets of angels that are the Lord's Wrath!" Prayer mingles with nonsense syllables, spittle flying. Almost in spite of yourself you pity the man, but as you consider the words something clicks, the older man with the camera watching the other attempt a snipper kill on what must have seemed an easy target. Liz not you had must have been the plan

This was supposed to be an initiation, the recording a kind of trophy of his first kill... and you suspect also blackmail should be choose to renounce his new 'calling'. Of course he is expecting trial and tribulation. "I don't think he knows anything useful."

That does not stop Father Forthil from trying to get him to see sense, but it is clearly going to be a hard-fought battle.

Instead of lingering you move on to the adjacent room where the elder of the two sits slumped in his chair, absent the bruises around his neck, though even more drained. "So kill me witch, I won't talk! You and your devil lover will both burn in hell, in the lake of fire." He sounds almost frighteningly calm, if his fingernails weren't digging into the sides of the chair he might have been discussing the weather.

"Kill you?" you sigh and shake your head, knowing that his pride, his sense of his own righteousness would cause him to continue listening if you seem to be mocking him. "Why would I ever bother to kill you, like crushing a spent shell casing in my fist. You are being used... and you have already been used up."

The man, you learn his name if Jasper Cage, is as resolved in his awful beliefs as any you might meet and those are not wholly the result of white court manipulations, Three years ago he had lost his wife and daughter to what sounds like a vampire attack, Red Court or Black and he had seen enough to break the comforting lie most of mankind now lives in. Ridiculed by his friends, pitied then shunned by his family he has sunk deeper and deeper into a morass of half-truth and pure fabrication until he had met 'Reverend Miles' at a big tent revival out west. From what you can coax out of him the man is clearly a vampire of the white court and a strong one at that, able to induce feelings of ecstasy and revelation.

By the time you had pointed that out to him and proven it, using his own words he just crying, ugly tearing sounds that seem to rise from his chest as though he's going to shake apart.

Excuse me waiter, someone appears to have gotten some humanity in the murderous fanatic I ordered, you think, a tinge of bitter humour to it.

What do you do next?

[] Use the information Jasper gave you as well as what you got from Demetrius to track down the vampire controlling the Ants

[] Wait for the festival, you do not want to jog Lara's hand

[] Write in


OOC: Both these people are thralls, with the mental damage that implies.
 
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